Scotland Coach

by allyt2k Sun 05 May 2013, 1:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Breaking news; Mark Dodson, SR CEO, announces "We have concluded our search for a head coach and will announce that in coming weeks."

Any Ideas? sounds like its someone still in a job

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 28 May 2013, 12:08 pm

I get what you are Saying Stag, but as RDW has pointed out, compared to some of the Gash we have had to put up with over the years and some of the mince we have been playing Cotter is a massive step in the right direction unless he gets Clermont relegated this season.

by flyhalffactory Tue 28 May 2013, 1:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

Well can you remember how poor Clermont were in 2005?, I assure you they weren't in the best state....... the guy has done wonders to bring them to be arguably the best team in Europe. As of this moment CA finished on the summit of the Top 14 scoring the most points and conceding the fewest. and were HC finalists, and the man is disappointed at their achievements this season (we all know Clermont lost the HC final rather than Toulon winning it)....... that speaks volumes for Cotter. Before that he was a 36yr old young inexperienced coach with B of P in early 2000, then moved to the Crusaders as forwards coach where they came 2nd (to Brumbies), then 1st, 1st. So tell me how he is an underachieving coach?

Well firstly Fly, .... an underachieving coach is invariably in the 'good coach' bracket. Bad ones don't underachieve, only good ones. So suggesting he underachieves isn't a slur. There's hope for old Cotter at International level. Maybe International Will be the vehicle that truly establishes his credentials. Six Nations Championships? A WC final or indeed win? Who knows. It's an adventure the Scottish will be anticipating with lots of hope.

But to get back to the underachieving slice of my argument and your question. Yeah, I'd say I'm still pretty much adamant that up to this point his present side have been underachieving. (And I've been saying so before I ever knew he was connected to the Scottish job)

By the time he now leaves Clermont at the end of next season, his absolute best tally for his eight seasons will be two Top14 titles and one HC (assuming he has a classic year and wins every competition Clermont enter). Maybe that will be classed as a good run by some but eight years is a long period of opportunity to prove you have the best side in Europe, especially as he hit the ground running with three Top14 runner-up spots in his first three season.

Afternoon Fly

If we look at most "achieving" coaches then invariably they have patches of "underachieving"........... couple of recent examples: Warren Gatland and Ireland, (and I do believe he was very close to producing the worst losing sequence in Welsh international rugby), Graham Henry and Wales (sacked) before he was immense for the All Blacks. I see shades of Alex Ferguson (came from Aberdeen with a pretty good CV but was almost sacked before he went on to become one the worlds greatest ever footie coaches/managers)....... he came to a club with a dire organisational structure "poor training facilities, no investment in youth development, poor scouting, and a drinking culture among senior players and of course add to that the massive pressure to automatically win just because of the "brand". So to the unaware eye he underachieved in what the first 6-7 years, but the reality, revealed years later, that management side of his CV had to be in the fore-front before his coaching skills could take effect. The club culture at CA was such that the first three years was a bit of a red herring and papered over the cracks of a poor organisation.

When you compare to the poor "underachieving" periods sandwiched between the massive successes of some of the "greats" to Cotters consistently good results , you can perhaps think..... that maybe it could well have been not just the coach but possible could have been the players cracking under pressure in the big games.

I do believe that Cotter has put in place a fantastic coaching structure but at the end of the day you cant play the game for the players, CA should have been 2013 HC champs now, everything was in place for them to go on the field and win....... and Cotter to have a tad better CV.

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 28 May 2013, 1:50 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I get what you are Saying Stag, but as RDW has pointed out, compared to some of the Gash we have had to put up with over the years and some of the mince we have been playing Cotter is a massive step in the right direction unless he gets Clermont relegated this season.

Cotter can't hold a candle to Michael Bradley, plus I hear he's off contract atm. SRU you've arsed it up again!

by SecretFly Tue 28 May 2013, 1:54 pm

Micheal Bradley, the newly pre-signed Clermont coach who will take over from Cotter in the summer of 2014?

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 28 May 2013, 2:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:Micheal Bradley, the newly pre-signed Clermont coach who will take over from Cotter in the summer of 2014?

He got Edinburgh through to the HK semifinal once, he's the real deal.

by tigertattie Tue 28 May 2013, 3:54 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:He got Edinburgh through to the HK semifinal once, he's the real deal.

You'll find that was Greg laidlaw and Tim Visser

by shaun.mahon.9 Tue 28 May 2013, 11:45 pm

STV reporting this evening that SRU are "in discussions with Clermont to try and get Vern on board asap" so don't rule out seeing Vern in Autumn Wink

, http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/sru-seek-early-release-of-vern-cotter-from-clermont-1-2947001.

He's getting paraded tomorrow so expect media to grab a word with him, maybe we'll get more info from the man himself on whats happening?

by sensisball Tue 28 May 2013, 11:53 pm

I dont think we need to have too many sleepless nights worrying about SJ's potential future successes when he is continually singling out Grant Gilchrist as the rising star of Scottish rugby.

If i was Gilchrist the sight of Joe Takori getting on the pitch for Castres against Clermont would be giving me nightmares thinking about the physical mismatch that will take place if they end up facing each other in a couple of weeks. Yes on paper Gichrist looks impressive ( 6ft 8 and 19 stone?) but he has yet to convince me is anything more than a steady club player. He certainly ddint do anything in the France game to suggest he is ready for the big show.Im pretty sure Freddy Michelak carried more than Gilchrist in that one.

I simply dont understand how there isnt room for Tom Ryder in the squad when he is the only Scottish second row capable of actually making yards.

by **RDW** Wed 29 May 2013, 7:49 am

So Dodson, having originally said they would honour Cotter's remaining contract because that is the way they run their business, is now heading to France to negotiate his release! Headscratch

by cakeordeath Wed 29 May 2013, 8:01 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:So Dodson, having originally said they would honour Cotter's remaining contract because that is the way they run their business, is now heading to France to negotiate his release!

To be fair to Dodson though something could have changed. Maybe Cotter or Clermont had indicated that they would be open to releasing him.

by **RDW** Wed 29 May 2013, 8:09 am

True

It would be great if we could get him for the AIs and 6N

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 8:10 am

shaun.mahon.9 wrote:STV reporting this evening that SRU are "in discussions with Clermont to try and get Vern on board asap" so don't rule out seeing Vern in Autumn , http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/sru-seek-early-release-of-vern-cotter-from-clermont-1-2947001.

He's getting paraded tomorrow so expect media to grab a word with him, maybe we'll get more info from the man himself on whats happening?

You couldn't write this. Am expecting to read tomorrow that Cotter is actually Dodson's brother but they have never forgiven each other for a historical chicken accident that left Dodson with no hair. Or something.

by tigertattie Wed 29 May 2013, 8:56 am

Hmmmm

As if the whole situation wasn't barmy enough eh!

I cannot see Cotter choosing to leave Clermont until after next year. He has said his plans are to leave them on a high basically. He plans to win the French title or the Heiney before moving on I think!

Mind you, with the SRU, anything is possible. Cotter may be in place by the end of this summer. If he is not in for the AI's I'd not expect him to come in for the 6n's as this would be the business end of the club season and would be a really daft time for him to leave

Oh well. Lets see what strange direction the SRU take next!

by Pat_Mustard Wed 29 May 2013, 2:58 pm

Clermont president Rene Fontes says it wasn't down to financial compensation:

“We were close to losing him this year,” he admitted. “He could have left us in a difficult situation but I know he did not want to damage the interests of the club.”

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/family-comes-first-for-new-scotland-coach-1-2947198

by whocares Wed 29 May 2013, 4:29 pm

Vern Cotter just resigned from Clermont!
Clermont president seems under shock!

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 4:33 pm

whocares wrote:Vern Cotter just resigned from Clermont!
Clermont president seems under shock!

Do you have a source, WhoCares?

by whocares Wed 29 May 2013, 4:35 pm

George Carlin wrote:
whocares wrote:Vern Cotter just resigned from Clermont!
Clermont president seems under shock!
Do you have a source, WhoCares?

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2012-2013/top-14-clermont-vern-cotter-propose-sa-demission_sto3778806/story.shtml

by thomh Wed 29 May 2013, 4:37 pm

It's all over Twitter, though mostly in French. Apparently he criticised a number of players publicly at a press conference.

Google translate has come up with:

"The words of our coach m ' were stunned and deeply disappointed that the opposite of his usual behavior towards our players and our club. Vern That same day I was informed that due to his statements, he offered his resignation. I have taken note of the proposal and decided to Eric Cromières to convene a board of directors of the club will be held on Monday, June 3, to decide on this"

by red_stag Wed 29 May 2013, 4:40 pm

The SRU were clearly playing the most shrewd game of "big picture" planning ever with this one.

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 4:41 pm

whocares wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
whocares wrote:Vern Cotter just resigned from Clermont!
Clermont president seems under shock!
Do you have a source, WhoCares?

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2012-2013/top-14-clermont-vern-cotter-propose-sa-demission_sto3778806/story.shtml

Appalling, free online translation follows - but this is from Midi Olympique so it must be real:

Top 14, Clermont: Vern Cotter submitted his resignation

Published 29/05/2013 at 5:10 PM, updated 29/05/2013 at 5:30 PM

The president of the ASMCA, Rene Fontes, has received this wednesday the request of resignation of his coach, Vern Cotter.

The double defeat face to Toulon and then castrated will therefore have been due to the stability of the club clermontois. Of the stability of facade, in any case.

The bomb fell this Wednesday afternoon, three years to the day after the coronation of champion of France the ASMCA, in the form of a press release issued by the communication: "The comments made by our coach i was amazed and deeply disappointed because the very antithesis of his usual behavior toward our players and our club. This same day Vern has informed me that following his statements, he offered to me his resignation. I have taken note of his proposal and decided with Eric of Cromieres to convene a board of directors of the club, which will be held the Monday, June 3 next, to decide on this situation." These words, spoken by the president always in activity Rene Fontes, announced without doubt the end of the history between the ASMCA and the coach from New Zealand, landed in Auvergne in 2006 and which has led the club clermontois on four occasions in the final of championship including a title (2010) as well as this season, in the final of H Cup for a defeat by the RC toulonnais (16-15).

The recruitment policy of remission in cause the epilogue likely, to confirm the 3 June next, of a beginning of week in form of explosion in the country of volcanoes. In the columns of Midi of Olympic on Monday and then to the Mountain this wednesday, Cotter had questioned on several occasions several of the players frameworks of its workforce, but also the policy of the club auvergnat in recruitment. The declarations aimed the presidency of the club but also Jean-Marc Lhermet and who have highlighted the relations very cold between several actors of the ASMCA.

With the likely departure of Vern Cotter, this is the most glorious of the club clermontois who turns. In the pain.

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 4:49 pm

thomh wrote:It's all over Twitter, though mostly in French. Apparently he criticised a number of players publicly at a press conference.

Google translate has come up with:

"The words of our coach m ' were stunned and deeply disappointed that the opposite of his usual behavior towards our players and our club. Vern That same day I was informed that due to his statements, he offered his resignation. I have taken note of the proposal and decided to Eric Cromières to convene a board of directors of the club will be held on Monday, June 3, to decide on this"

Calling your players a bunch of arse biscuits certainly is one of the quicker ways to leave a professional coaching position.

by Pat_Mustard Wed 29 May 2013, 4:53 pm

George Carlin wrote:
whocares wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
whocares wrote:Vern Cotter just resigned from Clermont!
Clermont president seems under shock!
Do you have a source, WhoCares?

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2012-2013/top-14-clermont-vern-cotter-propose-sa-demission_sto3778806/story.shtml
Appalling, free online translation follows - but this is from Midi Olympique so it must be real:

Top 14, Clermont: Vern Cotter submitted his resignation

Published 29/05/2013 at 5:10 PM, updated 29/05/2013 at 5:30 PM

The president of the ASMCA, Rene Fontes, has received this wednesday the request of resignation of his coach, Vern Cotter.

The double defeat face to Toulon and then castrated will therefore have been due to the stability of the club clermontois. Of the stability of facade, in any case.

The bomb fell this Wednesday afternoon, three years to the day after the coronation of champion of France the ASMCA, in the form of a press release issued by the communication: "The comments made by our coach i was amazed and deeply disappointed because the very antithesis of his usual behavior toward our players and our club. This same day Vern has informed me that following his statements, he offered to me his resignation. I have taken note of his proposal and decided with Eric of Cromieres to convene a board of directors of the club, which will be held the Monday, June 3 next, to decide on this situation." These words, spoken by the president always in activity Rene Fontes, announced without doubt the end of the history between the ASMCA and the coach from New Zealand, landed in Auvergne in 2006 and which has led the club clermontois on four occasions in the final of championship including a title (2010) as well as this season, in the final of H Cup for a defeat by the RC toulonnais (16-15).

The recruitment policy of remission in cause the epilogue likely, to confirm the 3 June next, of a beginning of week in form of explosion in the country of volcanoes. In the columns of Midi of Olympic on Monday and then to the Mountain this wednesday, Cotter had questioned on several occasions several of the players frameworks of its workforce, but also the policy of the club auvergnat in recruitment. The declarations aimed the presidency of the club but also Jean-Marc Lhermet and who have highlighted the relations very cold between several actors of the ASMCA.

With the likely departure of Vern Cotter, this is the most glorious of the club clermontois who turns. In the pain.

Ouch!

by tigertattie Wed 29 May 2013, 5:00 pm

Has the SRU played a blinder?

So save money from buying out cotter's contract, did the SRU whisper in his ear "Vern, call the club a bunch of monkey poo eaters and say the players have been over cooking thier onions"

Thus getting Clermont to boot out Cotter rather than the SRU buying him out?

Have we all been wrong in our comments that the SRU were numpties? Have they pulled the wool over all our eyes?

Or am I just stirring? Scotland Coach - Page 11 2211252749

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 5:01 pm

Apparently Dodson is Keyser Soze.... Shocked

by whocares Wed 29 May 2013, 6:05 pm

Apparently cotter has just said in the murrayfield press conference that he's surprised by the anouncement of his resignation...

by **Notch** Wed 29 May 2013, 6:07 pm

Straight as a U-Bend, this affair. Still wouldn't be surprised to see Cotter in early when the dust settles from this.

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 6:15 pm

National news are on it now:
http://auvergne.france3.fr/2013/05/29/vern-cotter-propose-sa-demission-au-president-de-l-asm-260193.html

Merde translation ici:

ASM Clermont Auvergne

Vern Cotter has offered his resignation to the President of the ASM

In a statement, the ASM indicates that Vern Cotter offered his resignation to Rene Fontes, president of the club. This decision follows an interview published on Wednesday the coach in which he made a number of criticisms of the club and the players.

Obviously, the words of Vern Cotter published Wednesday in La Montagne our colleagues have been a bomb on the side of the ASM. A few hours after the publication of the interview with the coach, club president Rene Fontes ad on the club's website that he submitted his resignation.

A contested interview
In the interview in question, Vern Cotter was particularly incisive, unusual for this coach usually very measured. In reaching its conclusion the double defeat against Toulon and Castres, he pointed to the "lack of leadership" in his team and regretted "having trusted in 2 or 3 players," adding that he felt "almost" betrayed. The coach also pointed ASM his difficulties to ensure adequate recruitment, calling "people in place (to) take responsibility."

A decision on 3 June
His comments were visibly displeased at the club, enough anyway to push New Zealand to offer his resignation. Declaring "stunned" and "disappointed" by the statements of his coach, President Rene Fontes said it had "taken note" of the proposal. He announced the convening of a board of directors Monday, June 3 to make a decision.

Vern Cotter to Scotland
Ironically, while the ASM published its statement, the Scottish Rugby Union sent a photo on Facebook Vern Cotter came ensure his first press conference of future coach XV thistle. It was to take these new functions in 2014 after last season Auvergne ... A calendar that could be quickly undermined by recent events ...

by madmaccas Wed 29 May 2013, 6:27 pm

This is a rough translation of the statement issued by ASM President Rene Fontes on the club's website:

"I learned today of the interview given by Vern Cotter to the press. The words of our coach were stunned and deeply disappointed me as the opposite of his usual behavior towards our players and our club. That same day, Vern told me that after his statement, he offered his resignation. I have taken note of the proposal and agreed with Eric Cromières to convene a board of directors of the club will be held on Monday, June 3, to decide on this. "

http://www.asm-rugby.com/130529-renes-fontes.html

So it would seem it's not just coming from the press. This is being fuelled by the club themselves. Maybe he did tender his resignation, maybe the club is trying to save face and dismiss him without paying compensation. Either way here's hoping it speeds up his arrival to Murrayfield! Very Happy

by Solid8 Wed 29 May 2013, 6:44 pm

If this is some kind of sinister Machiavellian plan hatched by the blazers at Murrayfield I may actually be impressed! It could also be that Dodson et all were completely unaware of any internal political issues at Clermont and have lucked into the situation.

I am hopeful that I am wrong but until I see other similar quantum leaps forwards in areas that need addressing by the SRU I will remain sceptical.

by GLove39 Wed 29 May 2013, 7:08 pm

This whole Coach Cotter sutuation gets more intriguing by the moment.
Although the SRU tweeted this an hour ago

@Scotlandteam: Reports on Cotter's alleged resignation are news to him, he will seek clarity. "I'm surprised, I'll do some enquiry."

by madmaccas Wed 29 May 2013, 7:20 pm

Here's a more detailed statement from Cotter. Looks like he's going to have a very awkward call with his El Presidente. I hope this is cleared up soon.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/8741911/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 29 May 2013, 7:39 pm

WTF?!?!

by justified sinner Wed 29 May 2013, 7:49 pm

This is comedy gold, but I'm not sure it's the way to run an international rugby team.

by 123456789 Wed 29 May 2013, 7:49 pm

Wait until the news break that the SRU have been spreading rumours and Cotter rejects us, then we will enter a new and prosperous era under Michael Bradley

by **George Carlin** Wed 29 May 2013, 7:52 pm

GLove39 wrote:This whole Coach Cotter sutuation gets more intriguing by the moment.
Although the SRU tweeted this an hour ago
@Scotlandteam: Reports on Cotter's alleged resignation are news to him, he will seek clarity. "I'm surprised, I'll do some enquiry."

Perhaps they should have stuck with a springbok impaled by the family jewels from a fencepost.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 29 May 2013, 10:47 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f47yv6NsPrM

by Pat_Mustard Thu 30 May 2013, 12:03 pm

So Scott Johnson is going to remain as backs coach after Cotter arrives, whenever that happens, combining that with his Director of Rugby duties.

by **RDW** Thu 30 May 2013, 12:06 pm

Seriously - what does a Director of Rugby actually do?? Not very much if he can do all these extra things!

by AirHOrse Thu 30 May 2013, 12:08 pm

Directs, obviously!

by SecretFly Thu 30 May 2013, 12:10 pm

Cotter the old dog. He gave the interview specifically to get the sack Wink

Saves anyone having to buy him out of his final year.

by Pat_Mustard Thu 30 May 2013, 12:29 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Seriously - what does a Director of Rugby actually do?? Not very much if he can do all these extra things!

According to Mark Dodson, when Johnson was appointed DOR:

"The director of rugby is a hugely important appointment, one that is absolutely integral to Scotland's standing on the world stage in the next decade and beyond.

"This appointment is about laying the foundations as we prepare our teams for the key tests of their status that occur along the way to milestones like the 2015 Rugby World Cup in England and the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.

"Scott will lead on player acquisition and contracting. He'll be responsible for driving a new Academy structure and for heading up our coach development, which includes our priority of nurturing the next generation of Scottish coaches who can operate at elite level.

"Scotland 7s and Scotland Women will also be significant parts of his remit, while two of the pillars of professional rugby, strength and conditioning and medical, will report into him too along with a significant involvement with the national team."

So in other words, everything rugby related, but things that were probably being done by other people before Directors of Rugby existed. To be fair, the responsibilities of an international assistant coach probably don't take up much of the year, so he should have plenty time for the other stuff.

by shaun.mahon.9 Fri 31 May 2013, 1:32 am

My gut feeling is that Clermont are going to sack Cotter after what he said about players, the fans will surely demand it after their coach criticised or slated their own players, fans won't like that.

Vern Cotter WILL be Scotland coach by this time next week, mark my words, maybe won't be in charge for Summer tour but he WILL be in for Autumn tests Wink

.

by **RDW** Fri 31 May 2013, 8:11 am

Clermont fans have set up a facebook page asking to get rid of him - over 1000 likes already

His position now is surely untenable. I think his comments have been taken completely the wrong way, but it can only be good for us!

by **NeilyBroon** Fri 31 May 2013, 8:55 am

the question is. Is this a SRU PR disaster or money-saving cynicism? ;-)

by Solid8 Fri 31 May 2013, 9:08 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Clermont fans have set up a facebook page asking to get rid of him - over 1000 likes already

His position now is surely untenable. I think his comments have been taken completely the wrong way, but it can only be good for us!

Can you link to this facebook page so that we can all like it and speed up the arrival of our new national coach?

by **RDW** Fri 31 May 2013, 9:10 am

To caveat what I said, it was in French and my French isn’t very good, but it had the words Vern Cotter in it and words that looked like they weren’t happy!

by IanBru Fri 31 May 2013, 9:50 am

Hey RDW, did you mean the 'Soutien à Vern Cotter' page?

I might be wrong, but I think 'soutien' has something to do with supporting or maintaining... Where's Gerard Depardieu when you need him?

by R!skysports Fri 31 May 2013, 9:55 am

IanBru wrote:Hey RDW, did you mean the 'Soutien à Vern Cotter' page?

I might be wrong, but I think 'soutien' has something to do with supporting or maintaining... Where's Gerard Depardieu when you need him?

In San Marino

by **RDW** Fri 31 May 2013, 10:25 am

Hmm if it is the same page we need a translator!

Nice if 1000 people support him but very un-French to do so!

by jimbopip Fri 31 May 2013, 10:38 am

[quote="Riskysports"]

IanBru wrote:Hey RDW, did you mean the 'Soutien à Vern Cotter' page?

I might be wrong, but I think 'soutien' has something to do with supporting or maintaining... Where's Gerard Depardieu when you need him?

When Mrspip was studying FrenchLit at GlasgowUni she had a lecturer who would parachute, as it were, the phrase Soutien Gorge (apologies if mis-spelt) into every lecture. That being the French for a bra. Oh these witty academic types. picard

Apparently it was meant to keep the students in a state of suspense, "Oh it's the 18th century epistolary novel today I wonder how he'll crowbar in an item of female lingerie which hadn't yet been invented?" chin

And Mrspip says I need professional help for obsessing about about Hornee furra linee's best position. 13 actually, or 10 or maybe 12.

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