The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Ballycastle Bar, Hong Kong.

First topic message reminder :

Hello and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub, a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The pub has made its way to Hong Kong, host city for the British & Irish Lions first Tour match before their arrival in Australia - land of the Giant Budgie Smuggler.

So grab a beer, cider, whiskey or wine.... or a warm beverage and sit back and enjoy the rugby.

                     

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of Rory Best, Sam Warburton, the Limavady Luge Team, Papa Rodders, Mrs Rodders and our newest & sweetest member, Katelyn.    

last Pawb: https://www.606v2.com/t43001p1000-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-pub-pyongyang

Nice bloke! Did he realise you 2 had shared an "airport moment" in the past?

MrsP wrote:Nice bloke! Did he realise you 2 had shared an "airport moment" in the past?

Hee hee if he did, he never mentioned it...too traumatised I expect!

Since my Liverpool trip I've been watching a bit of tennis, now that I understand it better. Andy Murray has managed to catch up.

What a great game at Wimbledon- real strength in depth in the Mens game it seems.

Blydi Gatland not picking Andy Murray...

Glas a du wrote:Blydi Gatland not picking Andy Murray...

Now you are just being ridiculous Glas.

How on earth could Gatland be expected to pick Murray for a Lions Test???

He's Scottish!

It's funny, I really didn't care much about Saturday. It would be another radio on whilst farming event for me (preparing for the annual flock competition) but the reaction to the team has sparked my interest all of a sudden. Contrarian, see...

It has had the opposite effect on me. I won't get to see the game live but I would have tried my best to have it on in the car.

I'm a big Lions fan.

But this team isn't a Lions team for me. This has been the least engaging Lions Tour I can ever remember.

From squad announcement to team for the final test it just hasn't "done" it for me at all.

That makes me sad.

Maybe its time. The midweek games on this tour have been various shades of farcial for various reasons, due to selections by both our hosts and the Lions. We had a stopover in Hong Kong where we played in conditions that rugby shouldn't be played in because Australia could only offer us 8 serious games and a run-out against a very green scratch side. And the tests have been of very low quality and have featured some direly over-conservative rugby from the tourists.

From start to end, its been a tour thats made the argument against continuing when our contract with SANZAR runs out. It'll be taking away quality players from the opening rounds of the Pro12 next year and for what? In an overcrowded calendar it would need to start justifying its existence. 2009 did that. Will McGeechan be on hand to clean up Gatlands mess the way he did Woodwards?

That would be very sad too.

I want my kids to grow up watching the Lions. I want the next lot of Ulster players to aspire to playing for the Lions.

MrsP wrote: This has been the least engaging Lions Tour I can ever remember.

From squad announcement to team for the final test it just hasn't "done" it for me at all.

I agree. I got up early to watch the 89 tests. I missed the 93 ones. I watched every game of 97. 01 was a bit of a shambles, 05 was when it started to go. I only saw highlights of 09 and ditto for this series. I have managed to be in the car for some midweek games and they were quite fun, although that was down to the commentators.

It should have been O Sullivan.

http://instagram.com/p/bVrhH1Ecob/

Me and the lads met wee Shane yesterday. Gained a lot of respect for him having played international rugby for so long given his short stature. Still looking tight though.

What's the feeling on tour about selection Willser?

From me? We came off the Sydney harbour bridge climb yesterday (great experience highly recommend it), at about 2pm and being a child of the 21st century went straight onto our phones and onto Facebook, and discovered the news. I honestly thought it was an elaborate joke, and to be honest I still can't believe it. We asked wee Shane and he gave the standard non comital answer. He actually seemed more intrigued that Heaslip had been left out. I don't think it's a right call simple as. In fact I completely stand against it and I really disagree with the gameplan Gatland seems to be employing. That being said we didn't travel all the way out here to support 1 man or 1 nation, we came to support the lions and that's who we'll be cheering for on Saturday.

I'm more anoyed abotu Heaslip. I hate Gatland and his gameplan but for how he wants to play dropping BOD makes sense. Keeping Davies doesn't but anyway.

Thomond wrote:I'm more anoyed abotu Heaslip. I hate Gatland and his gameplan but for how he wants to play dropping BOD makes sense. Keeping Davies doesn't but anyway.

 +1

Davies and BOD together didn't work, something had to change, and Gatland's at least picked a 12 at 12. Neither BOD nor Davies are as good as AAC right now either, so I'm going to repeat what I said on FB this morning:

Me wrote:Personally my team would have been Corbs, Youngs, Jones, Gray, AWJ, SOB, Tipuric, Faletau, Murray, Sexton, Cuthbert/Bowe, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, North, Halfpenny. With bench Vunipola, Hibbard, Cole, Evans/Parling, Lidiate, Youngs, Farrell, Bowe/Maitland. 

The best way to beat Australia is to play them like New Zealand do, and that's the best available starting XV to manage that. Parity at the scrum and line out is enough, challenge them at the breakdown, and run at them rather than being stupid enough to kick it back to their outside backs. 

Gatland-ball will ensure you don't lose by much (as Wales have proven over the past couple of years). But it doesn't beat Australia that often either - just ask South Africa.

As a strategy, Gatland-ball makes a little more sense against NZ than against Aus - which is why we fear the Saffas more than we do anyone else

Heaslip's been very quiet in the first two Tests. All I remember him doing in the second is holding on to the ball when had O'Driscoll in space outside him.

Won a penalty in the opening minutes of the second test, a key factor in two turnovers over the course of the second test and carried reasonably well when he has had to. You really learn a lot, better overall game then Lydiate in reality.

Just spotted this article http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/8875481/Sunny-outlook-for-code-hopper-Henry-Fa-afili on ex NZ (and Samoa) RL player Henry Fa'afili who made the Samoan side for the RWC who's retired

"At Biarritz pretty much all they did in the first half [of games] was kick. I was just doing shuttles, chasing all the up-and-unders and never touching the ball. It was kick, chase, return, kick, chase, return. It was a good way of keeping fit."

 

Hi Everyone!  

TFIN Friday!!

Notch wrote:Should we lose the series, Gatland will carry the can for his failure to go beyond the template he's developed with Wales. He's looking increasingly like a one trick coach and his one trick hasn't worked well against the Aussies in the past.

It's frustrating watching because the Lions haven't had a better opportunity to win a series in years and probably won't in years either. If he's blown this, he deserves all the criticism he'll get.

Gatland, in one fell swoop,  has sold out the very essence, meaning  and perilous existence of what remains of the Lions ethos.

Thats the problem with giving it to SH coaches llke him and Henry. They bottle it and panic when it comes right down to it. And, they dont really care.

Even, if by some freak of nature, we actually manage to win this one, the very soul of it all has been sold out. It doesnt matter any more. The die has been cast. Oz by 15 at least. Go Aussie!

Hi all from Sydney (I know it's the middle of the night in the UK & Ireland).

We've just been round the ANZAC Memorial in Hyde Park. Very moving and brought a tear to the eye.

Right, it's time for some plain talking. If it offends, tough.

I had thought that the elder statesmen of this pub (on here, but especially on Facebook) were wisely keeping their own counsel whilst the young hotheads had it out. They felt the same way but knew to say it would have implications beyond this tour.

The reaction to the third test selection has been incredible. Instead of realising that this is Gatland's team, that up till now he's made compromises (that have failed) the general consensus is that he is "panicking" or "reverting to type". There is hysteria about the game plan, but come on, where have you been blydi living? What on earth did you expect?

The criticism is nationalistic. "You can say that with ten from your country in". Yes and I've seen tours with three Welshmen in the side, but there was not mass hysteria, criticism of the ethos. Gatland is castigated for being a foreigner. Remind me again of how many Irishmen are coaching the Provinces, or your National team?

And on the game plan, remind me, which home Nation is it that plays with gay abandon? And don't go on to me about the Leinster way as that is built on forward domination as well.

And who are the players who have been so hard done by as a result of the inclusion of players from the double Six Nations Champions and highest placed home nation in the World Cup?

Tom Youngs? Rory Best? Heaslip? Croft? Murray? Ben Youngs? Hogg? Maitland?

Really? I mean, really?

Brian O Driscoll. I am bemused he's not on the bench myself. It is a big call. He is a phenomenal player, but lets have some perspective shall we? There were people predicting a tour to far, they were proven wrong, that he would captain the dirt trackers, wrong, that he wouldn't play more than an hour in the tests, wrong, twice. As send offs go, two caps for the Lions is pretty decent.

I accept the following reactions to his being dropped as valid:
1 shock, disappointment, disbelief and sympathy for him
2 questioning whether Davies is the right choice for rugby reasons
3 pointing out that he is a special player and you can't always judge what he'll do by looking back

To those arguments there are legitimate counters that are not personal attacks, and they are that he's played two full tests in two weeks, is he capable of a third? That the game plan doesn't suit him (and the game plan trumps players every time, every time) and he doesn't offer versatility if certain backs get injured. And yes I do realise that those may be arguments that mean the bench is the best place for him as Tuilagi is similarly limited in versatility.

What I do not accept as appropriate responses is the vitriol poured over the Lions, Wales, Welsh players and to an extent Gatland (although rough and smooth goes with his territory). What has been displayed (betrayed) is a level of contempt which has no precident and had not been reciprocated.

10 Welsh starters is described as an insult. To whom, exactly? Sorry, if anybody thinks that they deserve to beat Wales because the regions are not particularly successful or that Heineken Cup wins tells you anything about international rugby, then they need to think again.

Hibbard, Lydiate, Faletau and Davies have been there since 2011. They have been instrumental in the recent success of the Welsh National side. If previous Grand Slams were devalued due to England being weak (which I dont accept) then this years Championship win certainly was not.

Wales have played Australia a lot recently and have not beaten them. Yet for this reason we are to ignore the fact that Wales are the best team in Europe and pick players from less successful nations! And that is to "preserve what the Lions is about"? What, losing inclusively?

Gatland hasn't panicked, he's exerted himself. They are going to play his way, let them do it with his players. Its his neck on the line. Watch Neil Francis' video interview on Independent.ie if you don't believe me. Agent provocateur he may be, but to do that well you've got to be extra sharp.

So forgive me if I've stepped on your toes. Mine are covered in bruises.

Gibson wrote:Gatland, in one fell swoop,  has sold out the very essence, meaning  and perilous existence of what remains of the Lions ethos.

What exactly has changed in this 'one fell swoop'? A change in tactics? We won't know until Saturday, but it's highly unlikely. They've been broadly the same all tour. That leaves changes in personnel. If the simple changing of personnel is enough to sell out the entire history of the Lions, well...

I say horseshit.

Glas, you basically summed up everything I think at the moment with regards to the Lions reaction! It's part of the reason I haven't bothered coming in here or on the fbk page during the tour!!

Lads!

Don't take any of this personally. It's only rugby.

But some of us expected a lot more from a Lions coach than,

"I'm just going to pick the lads I know well"


For me that is the antithesis of the Lions.

No player should be picked because of the National team they play for and yet Gatland has clearly stated that that is why he has picked Davies over BOD, to use the most high profile example.

That is just wrong from my point of view.

In my heart of hearts I can't see regard this team as a Lions team, not because BOD is not there or even because there are few Irish players there but because the players have not been picked as a Lions team. It's Wales plus.

I can't help how I feel.

Mrs P wrote:No player should be picked because of the National team they play for

In an ideal World, no. But it would be the first Lions Tour ever if it happened...

On this scale?

I think it is.

Lions only happens once in 4 years. It is special.

None of us can help how we feel, MrsP. But on that "I'm just going to pick the lads I know well", is it that surprising? He's using the Welsh gameplan and although we've come damn close to having the series wrapped up by now, we haven't really clicked in the series so far. In light of that, doesn't it make perfect rugby sense to select players who have proven to be comfortable with that gameplan?

Should Gatland be using the Welsh gameplan? Well, that's what's worked for him in the past. It has brought Wales success, on the basis of which, in large part, he was appointed Lions head coach in the first place. It would be strange to appoint someone for their success and then ask them to change the formula that's brought them that success.

Surprising?

Maybe.

Right?

I don't think so.

Then your beef is not with Gatland, it's with those who chose him.

It depends on what you mean by right. Gatland's brief wasn't to select a representational Lions side, any more than it was to create a new gameplan specifically for the tour. His brief was to win the series. We almost did last Saturday. We still might tomorrow.

Very possibly.

One thing should be clear though.

My beef is certainly not with any of the lads who are togging out on Saturday.

I know that, MrsP.  

But it's nuts to be debating this with you, you're not the one who's gone all hysterical.

It honestly feels that for some it's not that there's ten from one country, but that the country in question is not theirs!

I remember 89 where we had Young, Jones and Evans, and were lucky to have them! Clive Rowlands, the tour manager was Robert Jones' father in law and there was a bit of a stink at the time. But after those fights with Nick Farr-Jones which were talismanic of the Lions fight back Jones was a hero. There is no doubt that Clive (a scrum half himself) had put him up to it. They won, the rest is history. The Aussie media though were sucking lemons about the style of play, lack of ambition and will to score tries. The Aussie attack mindedness lead to Campese's cockerel up behind his own line that handed Ieuan Evans the tour winning try.

The English had 8 in that team. The Scots 4. There were no Irishmen. Within a few months they would contest a famous Grand Slam decider. Any quibbles about Lions selection were long forgotten.

But surely it's better to debate it in friendly terms. Hysteria rarely co-exists with good debate.

The worst thing is that I am such a huge Lion's fan. And now I find myself in the horrible position of not really caring about Saturday, or, if I'm painfully honest, worse.

I really do not want to feel that way. It's just not me. It really does pain me to feel this way.

 

Maybe I'll feel different tomorrow.

You say 'us' like we are all one fanbase. We're not. The British and Irish Lions are essentially an exhibition team that forms every four years. My expectation is seeing some entertaining exhibition rugby with the best talent we don't normally see together. There;s no unconditional support as far as I'm concerned. It's about entertainment for me, it's about unity and a level playing field and when you see a team heavily skewed to one out of four nations playing a poor brand of rugby my interest wanes. Other people will have a different perspective on what it should be about and what it means to them- probably as many different perspectives as there are Lions fans. I'm not saying my view is the right view or this is authoritatively what people think. Just my view, is all.

It's not the same deep-rooted passion as the teams I support invoke and it never will be. Most Irish people are the same I sense- there was an editorial in the Irish Times in the wake off this most divisive week claiming that the Lions don't have a fanbase they have an 'audience'. I don't agree with everything it said but I agree with that to a certain extent. A Lions tour is one of the most special things in sport, and can be one of the most spectacular. Like the football World Cup or Wimbledon or the Olympics you just sit back and soak it up. But its not the same way you follow your day to day side as a fan in rugby- unconditionally, blindly, passionately. I think most of us just want our lads to get a fair crack and see some good rugby before the real stuff starts again in August. I only got interested in the Lions this year after Rory Best was picked. Shame to say, when he was left out it killed it for me. And when he got in it came alive again. He got his chance on this tour and he pretty much blew it- fair enough. He deserved to tour and based on his tour he doesn't deserve to be in the 23. No problem if guys don't prove to be good enough- there's no facebook groups for him, he's been treated fair enough since he got in the squad. But when it's as dubious a decision in rugby terms as the BOD decision still is (imo)... well, watch out.

You see I'm still chewing over the hurt of the Pro12 final and will be for most of next season. I still haven't gotten over the Heineken Cup final. Those defeats stay with you for a long time, stay part of you, define you as a rugby fan. 5 minutes after we lost the second test I was over it- 5 minutes before the game finished I was over it! It just can't command the same passion as provincial or international rugby for me and possibly I would guess many others. I suspect the unpleasant and unpalatable truth for many is that for a lot of people seeing an Irish national icon get dropped for fairly controversial reasons hurts much, much more than any Lions test defeat ever could.

I will still be nominally supporting the Lions though, and I suspect 99% of the people causing the most stink will be too. Emotional outpourings aside, I can't imagine too many shouting for Australia when push comes to shove. I can see people caring a bit less but people will still be lukewarm Lions fans. After all, the Irish have contributed massively to the history of the Lions and to this tour as well. Why shouldn't we still support the team- all of the team? They're 15 players selected to do a job and I hope they do it. Like MrsP says, its not about them. But I can't apologise for the way I or other people feel about this tour, or Gatland, or the tactics and selection policies. We feel how we feel.

The one good thing you can say about this is it sets up the Ireland vs Wales match in Dublin next year as another in a long series of grudge matches!  

Glas a du wrote:Right, it's time for some plain talking. If it offends, tough.

I had thought that the elder statesmen of this pub (on here, but especially on Facebook) were wisely keeping their own counsel whilst the young hotheads had it out. They felt the same way but knew to say it would have implications beyond this tour.

The reaction to the third test selection has been incredible. Instead of realising that this is Gatland's team, that up till now he's made compromises (that have failed) the general consensus is that he is "panicking" or "reverting to type". There is hysteria about the game plan, but come on, where have you been blydi living? What on earth did you expect?

The criticism is nationalistic. "You can say that with ten from your country in". Yes and I've seen tours with three Welshmen in the side, but there was not mass hysteria, criticism of the ethos. Gatland is castigated for being a foreigner. Remind me again of how many Irishmen are coaching the Provinces, or your National team?

And on the game plan, remind me, which home Nation is it that plays with gay abandon? And don't go on to me about the Leinster way as that is built on forward domination as well.

And who are the players who have been so hard done by as a result of the inclusion of players from the double Six Nations Champions and highest placed home nation in the World Cup?

Tom Youngs? Rory Best? Heaslip? Croft? Murray? Ben Youngs? Hogg? Maitland?

Really? I mean, really?

Brian O Driscoll. I am bemused he's not on the bench myself. It is a big call. He is a phenomenal player, but lets have some perspective shall we? There were people predicting a tour to far, they were proven wrong, that he would captain the dirt trackers, wrong, that he wouldn't play more than an hour in the tests, wrong, twice. As send offs go, two caps for the Lions is pretty decent.

I accept the following reactions to his being dropped as valid:
1 shock, disappointment, disbelief and sympathy for him
2 questioning whether Davies is the right choice for rugby reasons
3 pointing out that he is a special player and you can't always judge what he'll do by looking back

To those arguments there are legitimate counters that are not personal attacks, and they are that he's played two full tests in two weeks, is he capable of a third? That the game plan doesn't suit him (and the game plan trumps players every time, every time) and he doesn't offer versatility if certain backs get injured. And yes I do realise that those may be arguments that mean the bench is the best place for him as Tuilagi is similarly limited in versatility.

What I do not accept as appropriate responses is the vitriol poured over the Lions, Wales, Welsh players and to an extent Gatland (although rough and smooth goes with his territory). What has been displayed (betrayed) is a level of contempt which has no precident and had not been reciprocated.

10 Welsh starters is described as an insult. To whom, exactly? Sorry, if anybody thinks that they deserve to beat Wales because the regions are not particularly successful or that Heineken Cup wins tells you anything about international rugby, then they need to think again.

Hibbard, Lydiate, Faletau and Davies have been there since 2011. They have been instrumental in the recent success of the Welsh National side. If previous Grand Slams were devalued due to England being weak (which I dont accept) then this years Championship win certainly was not.

Wales have played Australia a lot recently and have not beaten them. Yet for this reason we are to ignore the fact that Wales are the best team in Europe and pick players from less successful nations! And that is to "preserve what the Lions is about"? What, losing inclusively?

Gatland hasn't panicked, he's exerted himself. They are going to play his way, let them do it with his players. Its his neck on the line. Watch Neil Francis' video interview on Independent.ie if you don't believe me. Agent provocateur he may be, but to do that well you've got to be extra sharp.

So forgive me if I've stepped on your toes. Mine are covered in bruises.

What you're forgetting is some of us have been giving out about Gatland since before r even the start of the tour. I can remember talking to you and Dreamer on Twitter a few months back, and I said Gatland won't win playing this shoite, and I was laughed at, refereeing, missed kicks mistakes were all the excuses used. You can chalk one or two losses max down to luck or random events. 5/6 losses in a row and you have a failure in tactics. You can use stats and other analytics but the eyeball tests never lies.


I agree with dropping BOD, I was actually talking to Murray Kinsella, the lad who put that video up about the two centres and said that BOD was not the guy to play in this system, which is what most have seen. I'm more aggrieved with dropping guys like Heaslip and Tom Youngs who have been pretty decent by all accounts. I also don't get keeping Jon Davies because he was terrible last week and blew two big moments.

There are people out there who will root against the Lions tommorrow, now I think that's a crock but even from the first test I was kind of hoping Oz snuck it, it might have forced a change. I'm not watching the game live tommorrow, the only reason I'm going to watch it at all as I promised someone to do video analysis on it, in 2009 I got up at 6 in the morning to travel in a car for a good hour and a half looking for a British Pub that had the game. Not all of that is on Gatland or the team but I just don't really care about the results in truth.

I've been thinking about next season's Ireland - Wales game too, Notch. Ooft, that should be some game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've been thinking about next season's Ireland - Wales game too, Notch. Ooft, that should be some game.

As ever. It's very strange the way Ireland-Wales has displaced England vs Everyone as the biggest grudge match in NH rugby. Mainly because of that pr!ck Gatland. The pr!ck.

 

There's been niggle in Wales - Ireland games for a while now. I remember the game in 2005 when O'Driscoll tackled Henson and while they were down, messed up his hair. (It was either that or a Chinese burn.) My take on it is that at international level, there's not much between the sides. It was France and England at the top table for so long, and Ireland and Wales have been fighting to be the ones to join them.

Hehe, the worst thing he could have done really. Messed up his hair.

You can see a bit of that Welsh schadenfreude coming out now in this selection decision. For so many years O'Driscoll tormented a pretty unsuccessful Wales side and Ireland were far the better side. Now the tables have been turned. Some of your compatriots aren't exactly restraining their glee at this call. Oh it cuts both ways alright. No love lost out there on the main board, even during the Lions.

Notch wrote:The one good thing you can say about this is it sets up the Ireland vs Wales match in Dublin next year as another in a long series of grudge matches!  

Oh yes

O'Driscoll is one of the least unlikeable players there is.

If that's not trying to stir Lucky......


Ireland and England lost a bit of spice since leaving Croke Park, and getting battered by them a couple of times hasn't helped

I dont understand, Thomond. It was a genuine comment. He's been a great ambassador for the game and one hell of a player to watch.

Read it wrong, missed the "un" part! I was genuinely surprised for asecond sure even the Kiwis like BOD!

Hmm, I've mostly been away and busy this week and haven't commented that much on the Lions tour since the Tests, but Glas' post above is very fair in most respects, as was Thomond's reply. The most important point there for me, from Glas, was that the gameplan is 100% more important than any given player. I completely agree and think the argument for and against the BOD selection could go either way and Gatland showing faith in the players he knows best is neither surprising nor wrong. My problem is with the very gameplan, which even if it succeeds after a frankly incredibly lucky first Test win is in my eyes and with what I think is very strong evidence completely and utterly the wrong way to play Australia. It is true that BOD doesn't fit this gameplan as well as other players and I have no issue with any individual calls on selection Gatland has made (though the sum of them has left his team bereft of leadership or spark, IMHO) but the gameplan is the issue and though I would love to be proven wrong and have an easy win against the Aussies I will be unable to help thinking that if we do win it will be despite the tactics we have used and in no way because of them. And that is all I will say on the matter and I will be loudly cheering the Lions tomorrow.

That's the truly sad thing about this week - that instead of stepping back a bit and applauding O'Driscoll for the Lions career he's had, everyone's fighting. In defending JD2 from some of the vitriol coming his way, I've found myself having to criticise O'Driscoll's performances on tour at the very time we should be looking at all the good he's brought to the Lions, the heart, the commitment, the genuine magic at times. It's not the way anyone would want his Lions career to end - and I include Gatland in that - but you have to be ruthless sometimes as a manager. It would have been a sop to have him on the bench too, when Tuilagi's the better impact option.