Argentina vs England - 8.10pm KO

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a match thread for the game yet so thought I'd get one up and going, with the game on BBC hopefully plenty will be watching!

Argentina

M Bustos Moyano (Montpellier); M Orlando (Huirapuca), G Tiesi (unattached), F Contepomi (Stade Francais), M Montero (Club Pucara); B Urdapilleta (Oyonnax), M Landajo (CASI); P Henn (Brive), M Garcia Veiga (Buenos Aires C & CR), M Bustos (Montpellier), E Lozada, (Agen) M Galarza (University of La Plata), J Farias Cabello (unattached), B Macome (Tucuman), T Leonardi (Southern Kings).

Replacements: M Guidone (La Plata), G Roan (Cavalieri Prato), F Gomez Kodela (Biarritz), T Vallejos Cinalli (unattached), T De la Vega (CUBA), N Vergallo (Southern Kings), G Ascarate (Carcassonne), B Agulla (unattached).

England

M Brown (Harlequins); C Wade (Wasps), J Joseph (London Irish), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), D Strettle (Saracens); F Burns (Gloucester), L Dickson (Northampton); J Marler (Harlequins), R Webber (Bath), D Wilson (Bath), J Launchbury (Wasps), D Attwood (Bath), T Wood (Northampton, capt), M Kvesic (Worcester), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Paice (London Irish), H Thomas (Sale Sharks), P Doran-Jones (Northampton), C Lawes (Northampton), B Vunipola (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), B Foden (Northampton).

Looking at the teams both sides are unsurprisingly putting out some new faces with Argentina fielding a very experimental side.

For those wanting to watch the BBC 2 coverage starts at 7.30pm with KO at 8.10pm. Hopefully we'll see a good game with some bruising forward battles up front and some skill from the backs in behind them - as an England fan I yet live in hope of the Burns, Twelvetrees and Wade rejuvenation of the backline!

lostinwales wrote:Yeah Wade's passing (including the time he stepped in at scrum half at a ruck) made Strettle's attempts look just laughable. It was great to see.

Yeah. Wade just looks so 'on the ball'. Always looking for options with his head up rather than just relying on his pace all the time.

I really think he's going to be special. There are plenty of players with gas but he seems a very canny player too. It's great to watch.

Wade and Morgan had some great moments linking up. Two very skilful players.

I've just re-watched it without the beer goggles on and have to agree with Cyril.....Wade looks so, so good, Morgan is a beast, I can see what the fuss about 36 was over. I'd have little doubt that this England side would beat any of the other of the home nations right now, with their lions contingents away.....little bit simplistic I know but is this an indication of the oft promised strength in depth we keep hoping will show itslef?

Strange isnt it- Wasnt that the score wales beat us with!!

Now with have the second string crushing argentina away. Or is this another false dawn?

I think I mentioned this in another thread but if Ireland lose two or three first choice players though injury and/or retirement they suddenly look exposed as their young team looked against the eagles. Wales have a large lions contingent but again they're second string was exposed in certain areas in their shaky win against Japan. So again a handful of them get crocked or retire? and Scotland? well I always keep my fingers crossed for them.
|England however look sharp and concise in their play, and most of their lions (still a large amount of the first squad), a predominantly very young themselves....I really think its starting to take shape. 2015 might be a good year

You have to think that other sides will want to send some big guys down Wade's wing- but then Argentina had that huge 11 who I think probably had the ball passed to him once.

36 - it was great just seeing him always looking for chances to make things happen, then you had Wade doing the same and Morgan getting himself in the right places.

I couldnt quite believe what I was seeing in the first half. I didnt quite know who that team in burgundy was. I did work out who they were in the 2nd half though...

Thought I'd drop my two cents in about the England Argentina game!

It was just so refreshing, wasn't it? Fluidity and explosive power in the backs, combined with big tackling and heavby carrying from the forwards. Beautiful, deft handed offloads opened up space all around the park, and the new generation of English wingers were there to receive the ball.

I think Ben Morgan, Christian Wade, and BIlly Twelvetrees should all take a bow. They were sublime. Almost everyone on the team played well, but these guys were a level above, and really showed England what they have been missing.

Morgan's all round game was excellent. His carrying was destructive, he fielded kicks, his control at the base of the scrum was superb, and his offloading was sweet. He looked like a game changer, and the protypical No.8.

Twelvetrees was awesome, and looked like a magician in the backline. He hit the ball at pace, and ran lines that carved through the Puma's defensive line. He had vision, and passed when it was necessary. His defence was solid too.

Christian Wade did what Christian Wade does. I was pleased with his temperment and understanding though. Too easily he could have selfishly kept the ball rather than look for the pass, but he didn't, and England scored because of it.

Other players took my notice too. I thought Webber, Launchbury, and Attwood were all very good. Webber got some nice turnovers, and was aggressive in defence and with the a ball in hand. He was also a very good linkman. Attwood provided some real muscle, and my God, England have missed that against bigger opposition.

Wood and Kvesic looked good together. Wood the workhorse put his tackles in, and I thought we saw a lot more of Kvesic's breakdown work on Saturday. He counter-rucked aggressively, and won some very nice turnovers.

Joseph, Burns and Brown also had good games, and hope to see them continue to improve.

There were some negatives I thought. At times, our vision was way too narrow. The number of times in the second half that we kicked away possession only to be camped on our line again 2 minutes later was a worry. There were a number of times that we kicked it away despite having overlaps on one side, or room for Wade to play.

David Strettle cost England at least 2 more tries. Surely this has to be his last chance? He is taking up a valuable place in the 23.

David Paice. WHY? Buchanan has been flourishing in big physcial games, and he is a far more adept player to bring on.

I also thought that England took a while to adjust to the Puma's breakdown play. We initially turned over quite a lot of ball, as we struggled to adapt to the Puma's breakdown style. Support lies need work too. Too often did a player run into contact and get turned over.

All in all, a very pleasing watch for England Fans (first half especially). Our defence was excellent, but the second half was a bit of a bore. Hats off the the Pumas for a strong second half.

I have never really appreciate the physiality of Morgan untill now, he was a wrecking machine on Saturday. A true menace with the ball in hand.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I have never really appreciate the physiality of Morgan untill now, he was a wrecking machine on Saturday. A true menace with the ball in hand.

He's always shown it in patches - its just that in this game the 'patch' lasted all of the first half.

I honestly wonder if he will prove to be a little injury prone- and I think hes going to have to work very hard to keep fitness up (and improving), but with some luck in those areas hes just going to get better and better. He seems to be smart too, I was sceptical when he was first picked last year but I soon changed my mind.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I have never really appreciate the physiality of Morgan untill now, he was a wrecking machine on Saturday. A true menace with the ball in hand.

It's strange, because he not the flashiest destructive carrier, in that he will bounce players off like Chabal and Picamoles (unless you're Tim Visser in the opening Six Nations game... ), but what he does do is just carry on trundling. He hits the tackles, and just keeps pushing, which sucks in more defenders, and creates space.

We are starting to look a little spoilt with both Morgan and Vunipola.

I hope when we have a full strength team available for the Six Nations, we keep Brown at Full-Back where his best position is, and put Foden on the left wing, with Wade on the right wing. Or maybe Tuilagi can go on the left wing, with 12Trees and Joseph/Barritt in the centre positions? It's a nice headache to have for Lancaster!

I just hope that if we have a repeat situation from this years 6Ns where both were injured, that Lancaster picks a genuine No8.

LondonTiger wrote:I just hope that if we have a repeat situation from this years 6Ns where both were injured, that Lancaster picks a genuine No8.

To be honest, SL will probably select the positional journeyman that is Callum Clark at the no.8 position. Apparently he is blessed to play every single position on the field.

I have to agree here; it looks like Morgan and the Vunipolas have been coached well in the past

RubyGuby wrote:I have to agree here; it looks like Morgan and the Vunipolas have been coached well in the past

The very best! Though both have had to hit the treadmill a little bit since arriving. All that Brains and Welsh cakes

bluestonevedder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I have to agree here; it looks like Morgan and the Vunipolas have been coached well in the past

The very best! Though both have had to hit the treadmill a little bit since arriving. All that Brains and Welsh cakes

- I can't put thiose blooming welsh cakes down when I start they are so moorish (and nice)

Morgan's go forward and ball carrying ability is such an important thing he brings to the party. It's crucial that England's best performances in recent times were with him at 8.

Lancaster still needs to learn - pick players in their best position.

That means don't pick Wood at 8 and don't pick Brown on the wing. Don't put Lawes in the backrow.

Balance is key to everything.

This team would crush the Lions...


This is not a wum . But my 100% opinion...

But I will still leg it. Because its not what you want to hear

If England play like they did NZ who knows......

It's all if and buts though.

A lions tour of the home nations could be fun though

The thing i liked about Morgan was he actually looks for the gaps as well..not just crashing through people...

I think im getting a little optimistic about the future...

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing i liked about Morgan was he actually looks for the gaps as well..not just crashing through people...

I think im getting a little optimistic about the future...

We are all at risk of doing that. The incompetence of the Argentians at set piece time made things much easier for us.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing i liked about Morgan was he actually looks for the gaps as well..not just crashing through people...

Yeah, remember his run against France in the 6 Nations re. France to set up Foden? Let's hope we see a lot more like that.

mystiroakey wrote:This team would crush the Lions...


This is not a wum . But my 100% opinion...

But I will still leg it. Because its not what you want to hear

Urmmm, no, it would struggle to get any fluid ball, but it would certainly give them a stern test. I still remember the 'orribley turgid tour over there when MJ was in charge.....a little optimism is a good thing I think. (Just a little tho don't give our welsh cousins to much doo doo to rub our face in if it all goes wrong )

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing i liked about Morgan was he actually looks for the gaps as well..not just crashing through people...

I think im getting a little optimistic about the future...

We are all at risk of doing that. The incompetence of the Argentians at set piece time made things much easier for us.

It gave us more opportunities - in both halves - which we took with varying degrees of success. If Argentina had been there with their 'A' team then there would still have been chances - just fewer ones

Anyone seen this article? Interesting short read.

Kvesic made 29 tackles!!

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/090613_stats_arg_one

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone seen this article? Interesting short read.

Kvesic made 29 tackles!!

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/090613_stats_arg_one

Spin Low Sweet Chariot

ultra wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:This team would crush the Lions...


This is not a wum . But my 100% opinion...

But I will still leg it. Because its not what you want to hear

Urmmm, no, it would struggle to get any fluid ball, but it would certainly give them a stern test. I still remember the 'orribley turgid tour over there when MJ was in charge.....a little optimism is a good thing I think. (Just a little tho don't give our welsh cousins to much doo doo to rub our face in if it all goes wrong )

Yeah it wouldn't, but once you add in Robshaw, Care, Flood etc then it would give them a sterner test than they've had so far!

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing i liked about Morgan was he actually looks for the gaps as well..not just crashing through people...

I think im getting a little optimistic about the future...

We are all at risk of doing that. The incompetence of the Argentians at set piece time made things much easier for us.

Well yes i guess thats true LT, but its just nice to see some running rugby, on the front foot..looking for the offload etc...and wingers like Wade showing great little skills and handling like his pass for Twelvetrees try.

Yes we need to play against much stronger opposition...BUT if we resort to the defence based midfield of Farrell, Barritt etc ill be a little dissapointed.
Defence is essential...but so is the ability to attack

I'm convinced the penalty count was purely due to the ref feeling sorry for Argentina too

RubyGuby wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone seen this article? Interesting short read.

Kvesic made 29 tackles!!

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/090613_stats_arg_one

Spin Low Sweet Chariot

Ha

Got a coffee right now, and all the talk of Welsh Cakes is has got my mouth watering.

Shut up about welsh cakes it's only 11.43 !!!

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm convinced the penalty count was purely due to the ref feeling sorry for Argentina too

I think so too. Kvesic and a number of other players actually got pinged far too often for perfectly legal turnovers. There are 3 instances I remember very clearly, where the player was on his feet.

Am I right in thinking that this ref is taking charge of the first Lions test? If so, hopefully he'll clear up his breakdown ruling.

Wow 29 tackles and hit 17 rucks...not bad by Kvesic...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

ultra wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:This team would crush the Lions...


This is not a wum . But my 100% opinion...

But I will still leg it. Because its not what you want to hear

Urmmm, no, it would struggle to get any fluid ball, but it would certainly give them a stern test. I still remember the 'orribley turgid tour over there when MJ was in charge.....a little optimism is a good thing I think. (Just a little tho don't give our welsh cousins to much doo doo to rub our face in if it all goes wrong )

Yeah it wouldn't, but once you add in Robshaw, Care, Flood etc then it would give them a sterner test than they've had so far!

You're right actually, hadn't thought of all our 'rested' players. Put those three and even the much maligned ashton on the bench and the Lions would have a really tough game although I still reckon that the breakdown would be a bit one sided and the scrum would suddenly be go the opposite direction. But what the hey, I'd rather be in England's position with their '2nd string' than any of the others right now.....

Quite glad of all the camera angles. First thought about Lawes YC was that he was trapped in by an argentinian and couldnt roll away and that it was a little harsh - then you saw the other angle and where his arm was...

Where was it? Didn't Contepomi have a little pop at him too while they were down?

He was pawing at the ball to stop Argentina from playing it. Fair cop

Not sure what happened with Contepomi.

Good synopsis bluestone - agree with the lot.

Strettle wasn't that great at all - despite scoring. There were other opportunities that (as a specialist winger) he should have taken.

Does Billy Vaunipola pass at all? I believe that's what one of the commentator's said - good point.

Contepomi wasnt in a good place - half tackled and not able to move and then lined up by Lawes. You could understand if he was a little upset afterwards but probably happy just being able to carry on.

England won the game well and you can only beat what's in front of you etc . However; I would be very careful drawing too many conclusions from this match. Hopefully Argentina can do England a service and put out a decent team next week or this long journey could turn out to be a bit of a waste of time IMO

Just like Wales shouldnt believe they have turned in to Danys hardcore GOT Dragons from a friendly ref in the last 6n's game

RubyGuby wrote: England won the game well and you can only beat what's in front of you etc . However; I would be very careful drawing too many conclusions from this match. Hopefully Argentina can do England a service and put out a decent team next week or this long journey could turn out to be a bit of a waste of time IMO

Yeah, because if you really want to test yourself you head over to Japan

Seriously though, I don't see how it can be judged a waste of time. Some young players are getting tested and being involved in the international set-up. Argentina (even with many players missing) are always going to provide a challenge. Playing in the conditions in Argentina with a lively crowd is never going to be easy either. True the Argentinian set-piece was pretty awful but England also played very well, especially in the first half. Argentina got back into the game (in terms of possession and territory) in the 2nd half but England's defence stood up well. I think Lancaster et al will be impressed by that as well as the 1st half attacking play.

Yes, you can only play what's in front of you but I'm not sure how well other home nations 2nd strings would have fared in the same game.

RubyGuby wrote: England won the game well and you can only beat what's in front of you etc . However; I would be very careful drawing too many conclusions from this match. Hopefully Argentina can do England a service and put out a decent team next week or this long journey could turn out to be a bit of a waste of time IMO

fair point....this Argie team wasn't the best. It was probably on a par with the teams the other home nations b-sides played, japan, usa, (perhaps Samoa could be fairly classed a a step above), just like the way we put away the weak opposition when compared to the rest.

Word is that the Argentina side next week will be changed to provide something more of a competitive team.......I agree that would be much more useful than playing their 2nd team, or a team like, Japan for example

I say it could turn out to be a waste of time as this is a good looking England team and stronger opposition would provide a good barometer of where they are. Having Vunipolo run through a non existent defense etc was embarassing to watch, as was the game for large parts. I've never seen an Argentina side so completely inept at the set piece. England deserve better than what was put in front of them. Of course it's not a total waste as combinations have never played to gether before. However, I think even the most ardent english fan would not have expected that Argentinian XV.

Pretty sure that last summer Phelan selected a domestic based team for the first test against france, then a much stronger line-up for the second, giving a run-out to a number of his 4Ns players.

Probably will see the same this weekend, so will be a much better test of where we are.

We'll know where we are after the AIs this year - Australia, Argentina, and New Zealand at Twickenham. 2 wins surely the target over Australia and Argentina, but should we expect to take New Zealand again?

I don't think we can ever expect to beat NZ but they will have a fair go at it.
Australia should be a game to target, especially after the disappointment of last November.

propdavid_london wrote:
Does Billy Vaunipola pass at all? I believe that's what one of the commentator's said - good point.

That is a part of his game that needs some real development but hopefully it will come with time. David Wilson has a similar tendency to get the ball, put it under one arm and drop is head down for a charge. Whilst both are still effective they'd be far more dangerous if they just kept the ball in two hands to keep the defence guessing - even if in all likelihood they have no intention to pass!

That article with the stats is very interesting as well. Shows just how much work Kvesic gets through and also puts some kinder light on Freddie Burns much criticised tackling given that he made 16 tackles!

Joe launchbury is gonna be a superstar

sickofwendy wrote:Joe launchbury is gonna be a superstar

I can remember seeing him Ksevic in (I think) the U20s World Cup and being mightily impressed. I think they'll both be in the England squad for a while to come