Argentina vs England - 8.10pm KO

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a match thread for the game yet so thought I'd get one up and going, with the game on BBC hopefully plenty will be watching!

Argentina

M Bustos Moyano (Montpellier); M Orlando (Huirapuca), G Tiesi (unattached), F Contepomi (Stade Francais), M Montero (Club Pucara); B Urdapilleta (Oyonnax), M Landajo (CASI); P Henn (Brive), M Garcia Veiga (Buenos Aires C & CR), M Bustos (Montpellier), E Lozada, (Agen) M Galarza (University of La Plata), J Farias Cabello (unattached), B Macome (Tucuman), T Leonardi (Southern Kings).

Replacements: M Guidone (La Plata), G Roan (Cavalieri Prato), F Gomez Kodela (Biarritz), T Vallejos Cinalli (unattached), T De la Vega (CUBA), N Vergallo (Southern Kings), G Ascarate (Carcassonne), B Agulla (unattached).

England

M Brown (Harlequins); C Wade (Wasps), J Joseph (London Irish), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), D Strettle (Saracens); F Burns (Gloucester), L Dickson (Northampton); J Marler (Harlequins), R Webber (Bath), D Wilson (Bath), J Launchbury (Wasps), D Attwood (Bath), T Wood (Northampton, capt), M Kvesic (Worcester), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Paice (London Irish), H Thomas (Sale Sharks), P Doran-Jones (Northampton), C Lawes (Northampton), B Vunipola (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), B Foden (Northampton).

Looking at the teams both sides are unsurprisingly putting out some new faces with Argentina fielding a very experimental side.

For those wanting to watch the BBC 2 coverage starts at 7.30pm with KO at 8.10pm. Hopefully we'll see a good game with some bruising forward battles up front and some skill from the backs in behind them - as an England fan I yet live in hope of the Burns, Twelvetrees and Wade rejuvenation of the backline!

Rugby Fan wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:SL was largely forced into this due to injury rather than choice...SL was never going to go back to Easter to provide the ball carrying.

The fact Lancaster wasn't going to select Easter was, nevertheless, a matter of choice on his part. Easter may not have stopped the rout but he would have offered the qualities we badly missed.

Even ignoring Easter, we should have considered Haskell at eight. He's not the best ball handler but would have given us stronger carrying options. Unfortunately, Lancaster showed himself a poor judge of combinations. He wanted his best three available back row players on the pitch, and didn't sufficiently consider how they would work together, or with the front five. We had the same issue with the back three.

One thing I hope Lancaster develops from this tour, is the courage to drop quality players from the team in favour of better options. He shouldn't just wait for lost matches before making changes. Wood and Croft can't both play six, he has to choose one. He may need to make similar difficult choices at lock, flyhalf, fullback, centre and wing. He may even need to change his captain at some point on the future.

One theme of this year's Six Nations was Lancaster's unwillingness to make difficult decisions. We can't afford that if England are to develop.

Ultimately this is the Wales game in a nutshell. What Lancs was thinking was a) get your best players on the park regardless of positions and b) it should give us the world's best line-out. Neither judgment was vindicated. 

I would echo what RF has said here in that it was his failure to look at the balance and combinations across the park which was a worry. I could understand the Easter point but Lancs had previously dropped Morgan for Waldrom on the SA tour and beginning the AIs. He could've employed him or even Crane in a similar role to Morgan. 

I still think he's a good manager and he's learning as much as everyone else is. Bar the odd selection for this tour he's picked a team all of us would agree with and he's attempting to develop both the game-plan and strength in depth. If we see 36, Wade and others in the AIs then I feel we will have advanced. If it's back to Barritt and so forth I will have real concerns. 

As far as Ashton goes I still think he's a quality player going forward but he needs to be in that offloading sort of team to demonstrate it. Thus far he's had both little opportunity and the weakest part of his game (D) has been scrutinised to the point at which it's failed.

fa0019 wrote:I am actually very surprised about how Brad Barritt has developed... in his early SR career when he was named SA SR player of the year (think 06 or 07)... he wasn't simply this tackling machine and route one runner. He was a genuine second five-eigth in his shark days.

He had a lot going for him and I was very surprised he left in fact... especially given that JDV and Frans Steyn had moved to Europe in 2008... his only obstacle to a bok cap was Maisiekind who must have had filthy photos of someone high up as there is no other way he would have been capped otherwise.

That was certainly my recollection of Barritt fa. He just hasn't demonstrated it at all for England. Even with Mike Catt in the frame he's carried on this quasi-flanker role. I think the idea with Goode at 15 was to help Barritt out in that regard and offer more variety but I haven't really seen it work. Perhaps the game at international level just overtakes Barritt?

I see Billy Twelvetrees has been called up as back line cover for the Lions. Happy for him but would rather have seen him turn out for England this weekend. What will the starting 15 look like now. Eastmond at 12?

Yeah they could have waited until after the weekend.

Eastmond preferred Burrell/JJ center combo might well be the alternative

Cumbrian marra

Im guessing we'll get to see what Eastmond can do against an Argentinina Development side on Saturday. He's supposed to be a creator according to lancaster so give him a shot.

Just means whilst we should be ok in defence....we're gonna have to rely on the big boys in the pack to offer plenty of crash ball. And i would select Yarde to give us a bit power aswell...

Chjw131 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I am actually very surprised about how Brad Barritt has developed... in his early SR career when he was named SA SR player of the year (think 06 or 07)... he wasn't simply this tackling machine and route one runner. He was a genuine second five-eigth in his shark days.

He had a lot going for him and I was very surprised he left in fact... especially given that JDV and Frans Steyn had moved to Europe in 2008... his only obstacle to a bok cap was Maisiekind who must have had filthy photos of someone high up as there is no other way he would have been capped otherwise.

That was certainly my recollection of Barritt fa. He just hasn't demonstrated it at all for England. Even with Mike Catt in the frame he's carried on this quasi-flanker role. I think the idea with Goode at 15 was to help Barritt out in that regard and offer more variety but I haven't really seen it work. Perhaps the game at international level just overtakes Barritt?

Theres a very interesting interview from Andy Saull the young Sarries 7 who has just joined us (read it on the Falcons thread) he claims the Sarries training and tactics are so regimented that whilst very effective it drills out any kind of individual flair or free thinking...its like a machine.

I cant help thinking has this happened to Barritt...hes been built for that role and now cant change.

Twelvetrees may not be the saviour or as strong defensively as barritt...but he is progression as he has more creative spark...something England BADLY need.

I've often made comments along the lines of "they've coached all the creativity out of him" with regard to Saracens players, particularly David Strettle.  Interesting to see a former player confirm this hypothesis.