Gatland blasts critics...good on ya Gats

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

RubyGuby wrote: JD and Foxy have been a successful centre pairing for 3 years - This isn't rocket science - The actual decision for Gatland was simple, the execution (no pun intended) was less so of course. He's not there to win a popularity contest he's there to win a Test series.

RubyGuby wrote: He's not whinging about not being popular - he's whinging about the level of unwarranted abuse levelled at him from all quarters over the past week which has clearly taken its toll on him. At least Keith Wood had the balls to admit he was wrong to comment in the manner that he did

RubyGuby wrote: JD and Foxy have been a successful centre pairing for 3 years - This isn't rocket science - The actual decision for Gatland was simple, the execution (no pun intended) was less so of course. He's not there to win a popularity contest he's there to win a Test series.

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

JD & JR didn't look so hot together in the 6Ns against Ireland. BOD shredded them.

Since we didn't see BOD & Roberts playing together in a Test match in this series, we have to go on the last time they played together and they were sensational in SA. Davies & Roberts did ok in this series, thats about it.

By the way, BOD/Tualagi looked to be the best centre partnership in the midweek games.

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:
And I'd say it was a tough decision to do that but in the end probably the right one. That is the sort of tough calls coaches need to make, and theyre not always right, but this time his hunch that they would make the most likely combination...paid off.

BOD & Roberts are not a proven partnership (seem to remember Roberts getting player of the 2009 series). Its not like Gatland hasn't coached BOD in the past either.

Do you not think it was a particularly nasty thing to wheel BOD out for a press conference (within 24 hours of dropping him) to talk about how great the Lions are leading everyone to believe that not only was BOD starting the Test, but more than likely was going to captain the team?

Had Manu Tualagi even played with either of the Welsh centres prior to the 3rd Test to earn a bench spot if you are basing the selection on proven partnerships?

RubyGuby wrote: So why did Wood feel the need to apologise? - He knew he went too far - we all do it its why we play and follow sport and write about it - We've all done the same it's what makes it all worthwhile, the emotion the passion

FORMER Ireland captain Keith Wood believes Warren Gatland has "made a terrible mistake" by leaving Brian O'Driscoll out of the British and Irish Lions' deciding Test against Australia.

And the two-times Lions tourist also accused Gatland of failing to respect the tradition of the combined home nations representative side.

O'Driscoll was widely seen as the favourite to captain the side in Saturday's third Test in Sydney, with Paul O'Connell and Sam Warburton both injured.

But the 125-cap Ireland international was not even included in the 23-man matchday squad as Jamie Roberts and Jonathan Davies were paired at centre as two of the 10 Wales players in the starting line-up, with England's Manu Tuilagi on the bench.

Wales lock Alun-Wyn Jones will instead lead the side and Wood feels his former international colleague's leadership will be missed.

"I've been uncomfortable throughout this tour whenever Warren Gatland has spoken about the captaincy," he told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"He tries to depower it, he consistently says it isn't about leadership and that isn't the most important thing. Having been on two Lions tours myself under (former England skipper) Martin Johnson, I would have said the leadership of the captain was the most important thing.

"Brian O'Driscoll has been quiet in the two Tests but at every stage, he has been the clarion call once Paul O'Connell got injured.

"I just think Gatland has made a terrible mistake."

The fit-again Roberts will be central to a physical approach at ANZ Stadium and Wood, who won 58 Ireland caps at hooker, is upset at the lack of a "spark" in the tourists' game.

"It's entirely built around power," he said.

"A huge amount rests on Jamie Roberts' shoulders and they were crying out for him in the last two weeks. I just think Brian's subtlety off him would have worked.

"You can say (Gatland is) picking on form but he's picked an unbelievably direct team with very little guile in it, specifically to play this game plan.

"You're asking them to pulverise a team. The Lions are at the end of virtually 12 months of the season, all these guys are pretty tired and you're looking for the absolute maximum for it to work for them.

"It can happen, I want it to happen, I'm just a little bit disappointed at the manner in which I think the tradition has been treated.

"The Lions is about getting the best quality out of the players of these islands, not having an intransigent game plan. We're not seeing that spark that we're used to seeing from the Lions because it's a game plan doesn't suit an awful lot of the players.

"It suits the Welsh players, that's why there's 10 of them playing. We're not seeing the blend of four teams. That's what the Lions is about, that's what makes it so phenomenal."

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

JD & JR didn't look so hot together in the 6Ns against Ireland. BOD shredded them.

Since we didn't see BOD & Roberts playing together in a Test match in this series, we have to go on the last time they played together and they were sensational in SA. Davies & Roberts did ok in this series, thats about it.

By the way, BOD/Tualagi looked to be the best centre partnership in the midweek games.

Perhaps but youre accusing Gatland of exacly the same thing as youre doing yourself. Of the 3 the first name you would pencil in is BOD, completely ignoring the possibility of the JD/ JR combo which ultimately ended up the best pairing of the series.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:


BOD missing out wasn't the most controversial part of the 3rd test selection IMO (a few months back there was debate about whether BOD would make the squad, or be selected as mid-week skipper) - Phillips ahead of Murray was. Hibbard ahead of T Youngs was (granted it proved the correct call) also more controversial IMO, ditto Parling.

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

JD & JR didn't look so hot together in the 6Ns against Ireland. BOD shredded them.

Since we didn't see BOD & Roberts playing together in a Test match in this series, we have to go on the last time they played together and they were sensational in SA. Davies & Roberts did ok in this series, thats about it.

By the way, BOD/Tualagi looked to be the best centre partnership in the midweek games.

Perhaps but youre accusing Gatland of exacly the same thing as youre doing yourself. Of the 3 the first name you would pencil in is BOD, completely ignoring the possibility of the JD/ JR combo which ultimately ended up the best pairing of the series.

LordDowlais wrote:I have learned a lot form certain Irish members on here over the last few days, I have had long debates with them on here before over other issues, and can honestly say I have not seen them like this before, well not as full on as this anyway, I would hate to think what this place is like when Ireland have to drop BOD, because there will come a time when he cannot play at international level anymore, he will probably take that decision himself though, and that is what I see wrong here, certain Irish posters cannot see the wood for the trees, BOD was the best in the world in his position for at least ten years, I am happy to say that I have had the privilege of actually seeing play, and he was worth the ticket price alone, I am very privileged to have called him captain of my side when he was Lions captain and nothing can be taken away from him, but he is only human and he cannot go on for ever, perhaps decisions need to be made for some people, for the right reasons, we see it with Gatland all the time in Wales, and nobody gets more infuriated than us Welsh with Gatland on occasions with the way he will drop players and pick players for Wales who we cannot agree with, but his record speaks for itself, perhaps if Gatland was still in charge of Ireland he would have dropped most of the golden generation before they started to show signs of regression, then perhaps the Irish national side would be far better off than it is today, but this is all if's and but's, what I will say though is this, Gatland picked a side for Saturday that blew the opposition of the park, and people can still pick holes in him, he has won HC, League titles, Grand Slams, and got to a semi final in a world cup, he did not do this by making popular decisions, 12 Ospreys players for his first test for example, I just hope the Irish posters on here can show a bit more humility to the fact that we won on Saturday, not lost, it seems to me that certain Irish member just like looking for negative's, Declan Kidney took a hiding on here for years, I wonder what will happen if the new Irish coach does not do what the fans want, I hope he doesn't drop BOD for somebody younger, this place would be like the end of the world.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:
And I'd say it was a tough decision to do that but in the end probably the right one. That is the sort of tough calls coaches need to make, and theyre not always right, but this time his hunch that they would make the most likely combination...paid off.

BOD & Roberts are not a proven partnership (seem to remember Roberts getting player of the 2009 series). Its not like Gatland hasn't coached BOD in the past either.

Do you not think it was a particularly nasty thing to wheel BOD out for a press conference (within 24 hours of dropping him) to talk about how great the Lions are leading everyone to believe that not only was BOD starting the Test, but more than likely was going to captain the team?

Had Manu Tualagi even played with either of the Welsh centres prior to the 3rd Test to earn a bench spot if you are basing the selection on proven partnerships?

To be honest Sin if BOD hadn't been at that press conference there'd have been a round of accusations about there being disunity in the camp. Probably with your good self leading the charge. And a few minutes of the fans thinking BOD was at the conference to do the captain's bit is neither here nor there really.

BOD missing out wasn't the most controversial part of the 3rd test selection IMO (a few months back there was debate about whether BOD would make the squad, or be selected as mid-week skipper) - Phillips ahead of Murray was. Hibbard ahead of T Youngs was (granted it proved the correct call) also more controversial IMO, ditto Parling.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have learned a lot form certain Irish members on here over the last few days, I have had long debates with them on here before over other issues, and can honestly say I have not seen them like this before, well not as full on as this anyway, I would hate to think what this place is like when Ireland have to drop BOD, because there will come a time when he cannot play at international level anymore, he will probably take that decision himself though, and that is what I see wrong here, certain Irish posters cannot see the wood for the trees, BOD was the best in the world in his position for at least ten years, I am happy to say that I have had the privilege of actually seeing play, and he was worth the ticket price alone, I am very privileged to have called him captain of my side when he was Lions captain and nothing can be taken away from him, but he is only human and he cannot go on for ever, perhaps decisions need to be made for some people, for the right reasons, we see it with Gatland all the time in Wales, and nobody gets more infuriated than us Welsh with Gatland on occasions with the way he will drop players and pick players for Wales who we cannot agree with, but his record speaks for itself, perhaps if Gatland was still in charge of Ireland he would have dropped most of the golden generation before they started to show signs of regression, then perhaps the Irish national side would be far better off than it is today, but this is all if's and but's, what I will say though is this, Gatland picked a side for Saturday that blew the opposition of the park, and people can still pick holes in him, he has won HC, League titles, Grand Slams, and got to a semi final in a world cup, he did not do this by making popular decisions, 12 Ospreys players for his first test for example, I just hope the Irish posters on here can show a bit more humility to the fact that we won on Saturday, not lost, it seems to me that certain Irish member just like looking for negative's, Declan Kidney took a hiding on here for years, I wonder what will happen if the new Irish coach does not do what the fans want, I hope he doesn't drop BOD for somebody younger, this place would be like the end of the world.

Kidney dropped Bod as captain which many reacted to in a bad way. They did not agree with the manor of how it was done.

Looked at one way you can respect Gatland for standing up to authority/percieved wisdom and taking no sh1t from anyone.

Looked at another way you could say he lacks class in the manor that he conducts himself at times. That perhaps he has a bit of a rebelious chip on his shoulder and sometimes does these things "just to demonstrate he can"

Both of these ways of looking at it can be true.

LordDowlais wrote:....  perhaps if Gatland was still in charge of Ireland he would have dropped most of the golden generation before they started to show signs of regression, then perhaps the Irish national side would be far better off than it is today, but this is all if's and but's, what I will say though is this, Gatland picked a side for Saturday that blew the opposition of the park, and people can still pick holes in him, he has won HC, League titles, Grand Slams, and got to a semi final in a world cup, he did not do this by making popular decisions, 12 Ospreys players for his first test for example, I just hope the Irish posters on here can show a bit more humility to the fact that we won on Saturday, not lost, it seems to me that certain Irish member just like looking for negative's, Declan Kidney took a hiding on here for years, I wonder what will happen if the new Irish coach does not do what the fans want, I hope he doesn't drop BOD for somebody younger, this place would be like the end of the world.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:....  perhaps if Gatland was still in charge of Ireland he would have dropped most of the golden generation before they started to show signs of regression, then perhaps the Irish national side would be far better off than it is today, but this is all if's and but's, what I will say though is this, Gatland picked a side for Saturday that blew the opposition of the park, and people can still pick holes in him, he has won HC, League titles, Grand Slams, and got to a semi final in a world cup, he did not do this by making popular decisions, 12 Ospreys players for his first test for example, I just hope the Irish posters on here can show a bit more humility to the fact that we won on Saturday, not lost, it seems to me that certain Irish member just like looking for negative's, Declan Kidney took a hiding on here for years, I wonder what will happen if the new Irish coach does not do what the fans want, I hope he doesn't drop BOD for somebody younger, this place would be like the end of the world.

How many farewell matches did Gatland pick Shane Williams for again? He even got him on another Lions Tour from when he was retired. LOL. Wales have their sacred cows as well.

Risca Rev wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I still dislike Gatland series win or not, I have no time for all his mind games and cowpat.

Of which there has been none for ages.  But don't let bygones be bygones, it's good to keep the blood pressure up.

Or it could be He's into doing his subtlE wums again. i wouldn't worry about it. he's gone from selling his lions top, to pRaiSing them and now to a pop at Gatland everytime He posts.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

JD & JR didn't look so hot together in the 6Ns against Ireland. BOD shredded them.

Since we didn't see BOD & Roberts playing together in a Test match in this series, we have to go on the last time they played together and they were sensational in SA. Davies & Roberts did ok in this series, thats about it.

By the way, BOD/Tualagi looked to be the best centre partnership in the midweek games.

Perhaps but youre accusing Gatland of exacly the same thing as youre doing yourself. Of the 3 the first name you would pencil in is BOD, completely ignoring the possibility of the JD/ JR combo which ultimately ended up the best pairing of the series.

As I said earlier. There was only ONE 12 (1st centre/2nd 5/8ths) selected for the tour AND he was injured for the first 2 tests.

So what you mean is the only 12 13 combo that played in the tests was the best one.

Personally I sugested as long ago as October that a Tuilagi/BOD combo (Yes I know, 2 x 13) was worth a look. I remember being laughed out of it in Llanelli by a few Welsh guys.  

I never commented online AT ALL about Bodgate. (Mainly because I knew it would blow up out of all proportion supported by total muppets on both sides who had no clue about rugby)

My considered opinion on the matter is that the final test would have been won with either Bod or JD at 13. Leaving aside any personal feelings for Bod, the side that played won, and ensured that Bod along with the rest of the Squad ended up with a series win.

As the man himself said. Winning cures everything.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:....  perhaps if Gatland was still in charge of Ireland he would have dropped most of the golden generation before they started to show signs of regression, then perhaps the Irish national side would be far better off than it is today, but this is all if's and but's, what I will say though is this, Gatland picked a side for Saturday that blew the opposition of the park, and people can still pick holes in him, he has won HC, League titles, Grand Slams, and got to a semi final in a world cup, he did not do this by making popular decisions, 12 Ospreys players for his first test for example, I just hope the Irish posters on here can show a bit more humility to the fact that we won on Saturday, not lost, it seems to me that certain Irish member just like looking for negative's, Declan Kidney took a hiding on here for years, I wonder what will happen if the new Irish coach does not do what the fans want, I hope he doesn't drop BOD for somebody younger, this place would be like the end of the world.

How many farewell matches did Gatland pick Shane Williams for again? He even got him on another Lions Tour from when he was retired. LOL. Wales have their sacred cows as well.

I would still pick him now:hug:  But lets be serious, the only reason he picked Shane the other day was because he was only in Japan and could get there at such short notice due to all our injuries at that time.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Don't really get the whole point of this post Taylorman. Gats gets to give his critics a two finger salute? Really? Not JUST enjoy winning a Lions series. Why is everything boiled down to a 'You were wrong, apologise' 'You showed me no respect, boo hoo'

Since when did people have to apologise for having an opinion? Isn't a congratulations all that's required? Something I'm pretty certain most posters did, whether they backed his selections and tactics or not.

Feels like some Welsh and Kiwi posters have circled the wagons and decided criticism of Gatland is a personal slight. Bottom line is, unless it's Geech, whoever manages the Lions is going to come in for some pretty fierce criticism - win or lose.

 The again maybe  some Welsh and Kiwi posters circled the wagons as they decided criticism of Gatland was totally shortsighted, unwarranted,destructive and as time later  shows proven to be utterly incorrect.

I'm sorry explain how it was any of those things? Just to clarify I didn't say again, I absolutely did NOT want to imply that I thought Welsh or Kiwi posters make a habit of 'circling the wagons' nor that those who have on this occasion were the majority, hence 'some' posters. I can see that putting their nationalities may have been clunky, but it does seem to be the Welsh and Kiwis rushing to Gatland's aid. I understand this, Gats is one of theirs, but I think it's completely unnecessary. BOD fan boys criticised Gatland, Gatland fan boys criticised those guys. The latter would surely be better served keeping any smug satisfaction to themselves rather than calling for people to apologise for having an opinion and then, in the most case, admitting they'd been proven wrong. Or not. I guess that's entirely up to you.

 Hoody I must apologise for a slight typo there, please read my post as:

Then again maybe some ...........etc...

But my point being, I happen to agree with what a lot of the Welsh posters on here have been  writing right throughout this whole Lions campaign, and if your trying to dismiss my opinion on the flaky grounds that Im only siding with the Welsh because Gatland is a Kiwi then you need to think again, this test series was between Australia and Great Britain and Ireland (New Zealand were off to the east giving France a three zip beating). As a New Zealander I was completely neutral,  New Zealand had stuff all to do with it apart from the two coaches being New Zealanders, a few players in both squads living for most of their formative years in New Zealand, A judicial Officer who also proven correct being a New Zealander, and James Horwill's lawyer being a New Zealander. Apart from that completely neutral. Bottom line is Gatland was proven correct and it irks the people who were shattered when he didnt select Brian O'Driscoll.

Hood83 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Don't really get the whole point of this post Taylorman. Gats gets to give his critics a two finger salute? Really? Not JUST enjoy winning a Lions series. Why is everything boiled down to a 'You were wrong, apologise' 'You showed me no respect, boo hoo'

Since when did people have to apologise for having an opinion? Isn't a congratulations all that's required? Something I'm pretty certain most posters did, whether they backed his selections and tactics or not.

Feels like some Welsh and Kiwi posters have circled the wagons and decided criticism of Gatland is a personal slight. Bottom line is, unless it's Geech, whoever manages the Lions is going to come in for some pretty fierce criticism - win or lose.

 The again maybe  some Welsh and Kiwi posters circled the wagons as they decided criticism of Gatland was totally shortsighted, unwarranted,destructive and as time later  shows proven to be utterly incorrect.

I'm sorry explain how it was any of those things? Just to clarify I didn't say again, I absolutely did NOT want to imply that I thought Welsh or Kiwi posters make a habit of 'circling the wagons' nor that those who have on this occasion were the majority, hence 'some' posters. I can see that putting their nationalities may have been clunky, but it does seem to be the Welsh and Kiwis rushing to Gatland's aid. I understand this, Gats is one of theirs, but I think it's completely unnecessary. BOD fan boys criticised Gatland, Gatland fan boys criticised those guys. The latter would surely be better served keeping any smug satisfaction to themselves rather than calling for people to apologise for having an opinion and then, in the most case, admitting they'd been proven wrong. Or not. I guess that's entirely up to you.

 Hoody I must apologise for a slight typo there, please read my post as:

Then again maybe some ...........etc...

But my point being, I happen to agree with what a lot of the Welsh posters on here have been  writing right throughout this whole Lions campaign, and if your trying to dismiss my opinion on the flaky grounds that Im only siding with the Welsh because Gatland is a Kiwi then you need to think again, this test series was between Australia and Great Britain and Ireland (New Zealand were off to the east giving France a three zip beating). As a New Zealander I was completely neutral,  New Zealand had stuff all to do with it apart from the two coaches being New Zealanders, a few players in both squads living for most of their formative years in New Zealand, A judicial Officer who also proven correct being a New Zealander, and James Horwill's lawyer being a New Zealander. Apart from that completely neutral. Bottom line is Gatland was proven correct and it irks the people who were shattered when he didnt select Brian O'Driscoll.

Ah ok, no need to apologise Auckland that makes sense. Re the highlighted, OK, fair enough. Taylorman referred to him as 'one of ours' and my feeling was a few Kiwis have felt the same way. But you're right, a fair point that that is not everyone's reason for defending him. That's really all i meant when I said 'some' Kiwis, but I accept that's clumsy of me. And actually I know a lot of you were saying that the Lions was a bit of a distraction from the real action against the French (a little tongue in cheek I think!) so that's a fair point also.  

I think we're just talking ourselves into the ground on Gatland. My feeling is this - There is a perception in some quarters that lots of people have been more interested in questioning Gatland rather than celebrate the victory. I think the reality is the vast majority have managed to celebrate the victory, recognise that Gatland's selections came off BUT also wanted to express their opinion that the victory was not somehow the result of a Gatland mastermind performance. My opinion - he reverted to type, to a familiar formula, in doing so taking a decision that was unpopular. That took guts, but not brains.

Sin é wrote:How many farewell matches did Gatland pick Shane Williams for again?

The Bachelor wrote:

Sin é wrote:How many farewell matches did Gatland pick Shane Williams for again?

one? Unless you're counting all of the RWC as farewell matches too.

Taylorman wrote:So strictly as combinations its clear that BOD and JR are not proven, BOD and JD were terrible- even if JD were to blame and at some point JD and JR are fairly proven...that only leaves the one conclusion if JR was to play in this test- and he justified his selection- the best Lions centre performance of the 3 tests. Like I said, a tough call, but the right one.

Scrumpy wrote:'lets be honest this tour should have been all over by end of play 2nd test..'


I agree, 2-1 wasn't good enough imo.

Taylorman wrote:Gatland went for an establish pair over the merits of the individuals, and it worked. With a stable midfield 'pair' the backline functioned with confidence and structure.

flyhalffactory wrote:
Gats big mistake was his persistence in GatlandBall, two very good centres were reduced to bit players in the 2nd test............ lets be honest this tour should have been all over by end of play 2nd test.

SecretFly wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:
Gats big mistake was his persistence in GatlandBall, two very good centres were reduced to bit players in the 2nd test............ lets be honest this tour should have been all over by end of play 2nd test.

I always commend honesty when I hear it.  And that is the kind of honesty that is missing from all these discussions as people batten down the hatches and decide they're never going to let down their side by publically agreeing to something that in their heart of hearts, they do agree with.  So thanks for that Fly.

I'd say Galtandball with added finesse was always within the capability of the Lions test team.  Instead, whoever, and whatever the circumstances, decided to try to win the series 'safely', playing a non-risky kick-away, solidly defensive game to take the series on penalty kicks and possible intercepts.  It didn't work out and but for one slip from Beale it (the policy of containment rather than offence) almost lost the series.  That's the truth, however anyone wants to varnish over it now, or evade it in the distant future.  

So somebody done somebody wrong in the first two tests - and yet certain players took the brunt of the criticism as a boss tacitly admitted he got things wrong by changing both the team and the gameplan for the third.  And still certain players from the first two tests took the whack from the public rather than the public acknowledging how much the intent of the coaching team had changed in the process too.

Game three was never going to be a repeat of game one and two, regardless of who was playing.  That would have been suicide, Gatland knew it would have been suicide and that's the debate.  Gatland got things right eventually in tactics.  Pity he needed to blame a few players for the first two games rather than owning up to the idea that he got his tactics wrong forboth games.  He saved his bacon in the last test - he, not individual players, damn near lost it in the first two.

Taylorman wrote:JD let the try in after not running the lines BOD ran in snuffing out his man in the second test. Its a one off but it made the difference even though others played as much a role in the loss.

All I'm saying is Gatland went for an establish pair over the merits of the individuals, and it worked. With a stable midfield 'pair' the backline functioned with confidence and structure.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Since when did changing personnel equal 'blaming' the players making way? Gatland dropped Cuthbert after the first Test - does that mean he 'blamed' Cuthbert for the victory?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Since when did changing personnel equal 'blaming' the players making way?

flyhalffactory wrote:

Taylorman wrote:JD let the try in after not running the lines BOD ran in snuffing out his man in the second test. Its a one off but it made the difference even though others played as much a role in the loss.

All I'm saying is Gatland went for an establish pair over the merits of the individuals, and it worked. With a stable midfield 'pair' the backline functioned with confidence and structure.

Mate that's your view and IMHO its clearly incorrect....... I have viewed this singularly and with many mates during and after the 2nd test, and the pre 3rd test match BBQ party with 17 (sober at the time guys and gals) agreed when you view the last 45 seconds before the try, that BOD was out of position and was running from the breakdown sideways to JOC, he actually never tackled his man before the 10 made the pass. It doesn't matter what view you took it from. 13 of my mates all gaffawed at me before the second by second analysis but it was unanimous by the end of the 45 second slow-mo

You are quite right it certainly did make a diff, and when you look at the full 75 seconds before the try there was ample opportunities to stop the onslaught from poor clearances to missed tackles. No one man was to blame, least of all Davies attempting to stop an outside centre running like a steam train from 4 metres.

I agree with you that the selection was the right call in the 3rd test

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Since when did changing personnel equal 'blaming' the players making way? Gatland dropped Cuthbert after the first Test - does that mean he 'blamed' Cuthbert for the victory?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Gatland went for an establish pair over the merits of the individuals, and it worked. With a stable midfield 'pair' the backline functioned with confidence and structure.

Yes. Unfortunately, many fans and pundits confused selectorial pragmatism with favouritism.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Since when did changing personnel equal 'blaming' the players making way?

Did he get his tactics wrong for test one and two? Don't answer a question with a question Luckless (I've been advised about that one earlier )

Did he?  Who got things tactically wrong in those two tests if a coach is getting all the praise for tactics and selection in the last one?

Scrumpy wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I still dislike Gatland series win or not, I have no time for all his mind games and cowpat.

Of which there has been none for ages.  But don't let bygones be bygones, it's good to keep the blood pressure up.

Or it could be He's into doing his subtlE wums again. i wouldn't worry about it. he's gone from selling his lions top, to pRaiSing them and now to a pop at Gatland everytime He posts.

I couldN'T heLP bUt LooK lOL..... 

btW whats wrong with Praising my teaM?


Strange days indeed.

optimist wrote:
In case anyone also needs reminding, both the '74 Lions captain (Willie-John McBride) and the coach (Syd Millar) were from Ireland. Like Gatland in 2013, they picked a team to do the job.  The difference is that back then there was none of the bitter moaning we've heard this time.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:there has only  been five lions series  wins in 125 years . gatland  what ever the  circumstance won  one of those .  

SecretFly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: JD and Foxy have been a successful centre pairing for 3 years - This isn't rocket science - The actual decision for Gatland was simple, the execution (no pun intended) was less so of course. He's not there to win a popularity contest he's there to win a Test series.

He made hard work of it, Ruby.  He made it look a very tough assignment.  

(his choice) was as superfluous as BOD.

?

optimist wrote:I've followed rugby since the mid-'50s and would like to point out something about the '74 Lions to South Africa.

Mike Gibson went out as a replacement, but not as a centre - though he was still then the best centre in the NH, if not the world.  As a fly-half back-up to Bennett, he didn't play in the tests. Until BOD came along, I think most people would put Gibson down as the best centre who ever played the game.

But for all 4 Lions tests in '74, the centre partnership was Dick Milliken (Ireland) and Ian McGeechan (Scotland).  Geech as a centre wasn't in Gibson's class.  It was the two centres' great work as a combination that saw them get the nod.  Does that remind anyone of the O'Driscoll/Davies/Roberts scenario?

In case anyone also needs reminding, both the '74 Lions captain (Willie-John McBride) and the coach (Syd Millar) were from Ireland. Like Gatland in 2013, they picked a team to do the job.  The difference is that back then there was none of the bitter moaning we've heard this time.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Since when did changing personnel equal 'blaming' the players making way? Gatland dropped Cuthbert after the first Test - does that mean he 'blamed' Cuthbert for the victory?

Luckless (is it hot in Newport mate?... I am in Glos today and its bleeding scorchio!!)........... I think Gats made a big mistake in dropping Cuthbert and selecting a not fully fit Bowe, but from that you could see from that selection his mindset going into the 2nd test. Constrain and Defence was the recipe of the day.