How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

Saint

I don't agree with you but it is hard to deny the quality of players has risen markedly in the Welsh squad over the last decade. There are certainly a good third of the team considered or on the periphery of the criteria raised in the OP.

Here we go again!

I was joking, but it seems some believe it Gotta love 'em.

http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

These rankings are based on fact not opinion.

The recent lions tour was a good indicator about who may be world class and who is not. Gatland picked his best side for the 3rd test (Warburton, O'Connell and maybe Healy would have started if fit). So anyone not in that 15 (18) players will struggle to claim to be world class.

BoD is not world class you are saying?

GloriousEmpire wrote:BoD is not world class you are saying?

He's not world class anymore without doubt

People don't realise that BOD was playing inside centre in the tests, both in attack and defence. Watch the first two tests, evidence is plain to see.

For my money C Smith and AAC are the top 13s and there really isn't too much between BOD, Davies and Tuilagi.

'For my money C Smith and AAC are the top 13s and there really isn't too much between BOD, Davies and Tuilagi.'

Agree with this.

But not this.


'The recent lions tour was a good indicator about who may be world class and who is not. Gatland picked his best side for the 3rd test (Warburton, O'Connell and maybe Healy would have started if fit). So anyone not in that 15 (18) players will struggle to claim to be world class.'

It's just opinion like it was Gats (mainly) opinion who was in the Lions tests. It doesn't automatically exclude others not picked from being WC.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It's just opinion like it was Gats (mainly) opinion who was in the Lions tests. It doesn't automatically exclude others not picked from being WC.

Who is British or Irish and currently World Class that was fit and didnt start the lions tests?

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It's just opinion like it was Gats (mainly) opinion who was in the Lions tests. It doesn't automatically exclude others not picked from being WC.

Who is British or Irish and currently World Class that was fit and didnt start the lions tests?

Arguably.....Cole, B Youngs, Cuthbert, Tuilagi, Gray.

Who started the test.....Corbs, Jones, SOB, Sexton, JD, North, Bowe, Halfpenny.

Gatland picked a team to play his way, just because players didn't start doesn't mean they are not near the top in their position. Gatland isn't the person who defines if a player is world class or not.

I really hope we don't have to base being World Class on what FatGat says  

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It's just opinion like it was Gats (mainly) opinion who was in the Lions tests. It doesn't automatically exclude others not picked from being WC.

Who is British or Irish and currently World Class that was fit and didnt start the lions tests?

Arguably.....Cole, B Youngs, Cuthbert, Tuilagi, Gray.

Who started the test.....Corbs, Jones, SOB, Sexton, JD, North, Bowe, Halfpenny.

Gatland picked a team to play his way, just because players didn't start doesn't mean they are not near the top in their position. Gatland isn't the person who defines if a player is world class or not.

The "inarguable" test starters, discounting Sean O'Brien probably about right... the ones you suggest there is an argument for, I would love to read your reasoning? Gray has been discussed earlier and even the Scots see he has the future potential but is not there just now.

I did put arguably as its debatable if their world class.

I'd personally have Cole, B Youngs, Tuilagi as world class. Gray is touch and go, probably on the fringes but closer to it than Parling(who started) will ever be.

What reasoning is required? I think Cole, B Youngs and Tuilagi are top 3 in their position thus on your theory making them WC.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I did put arguably as its debatable if their world class.

I'd personally have Cole, B Youngs, Tuilagi as world class. Gray is touch and go, probably on the fringes but closer to it than Parling(who started) will ever be.

What reasoning is required? I think Cole, B Youngs and Tuilagi are top 3 in their position thus on your theory making them WC.

Fair enough, this thread is to have opinions, discuss players etc. I agree with you on Cole, not Youngs or Tuilagi, too erratic performers, play exceptionally well some games, others are too absent to be classed in the top three.. Both have very good competition for their places within their own country, Care maybe ahead of Youngs this season, Twelvetrees infront of Manu???

Both have very strong competition too. I consider Genia, Aaron Smith, Ryan Pienaar, Khan Foutaali ahead of Ben Youngs. Smith, de Villiers, Davies, AAC and Brian O'Driscoll are ahead of Tuilagi.

Like Gray, Ben and Manu are both young lads with their careers ahead of them.

Tuilagi is nailed on at 13 for England hopefully with Twelvetrees inside him to get the best out of him. Didn't consider him for WC consideration as he's been injured or carrying an injury for 6 months so we haven't seen the best of him. If we're discounting injuries then he is up among the very best.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tuilagi is nailed on at 13 for England hopefully with Twelvetrees inside him to get the best out of him. Didn't consider him for WC consideration as he's been injured or carrying an injury for 6 months so we haven't seen the best of him. If we're discounting injuries then he is up among the very best.

Thats right he was injured pre Six nations and during the Lions tour... I agree with you, maybe WC in the future not right now.

You can't have seen much of Smith if you think he's above Youngs, he's been generally awful all season. A few good arm chair rides in a black jersey doesn't justify world class.

Care is certainly not ahead of Youngs either. I'd go Genia out on his own then possibly Kahn then Youngs. Parra is the only other top scrum half but again he's not been playing well.

JdV is more a 12 and not a great one imo, I wouldn't consider him world class in either centre position.

On Manu, not a chance BOD is currently a better player, if you forgot about reputation and watched BOD for the first time recently nobody would come to than conclusion imo.

On 13, I'd agree on Smith & AAC ahead at 13. JD & Manu would fight it out for that 3rd spot. JD is a bit more steady but Tuilagi can reach heights he can't imo so just sneaks it....2 top players though.

Certainly looking exciting going into the Autumn, HEC and AI's for a number of players to start really establish a reputation on the big stage with the next RWC just around the corner...!

Who will be the new super stars of the game? Who will attract all the attention...?

Manu...? Tipuric...? Carter...? Fofana...? Kurtley Beale...???

Or will it be a current unknown entity...?

Can't help but feel/hope there'll be a lot of talk about Wade, Eastmond and B Vunipola from Englands perspective. When is Eli Walker going to get a chance for Wales as he looks excellent.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can't have seen much of Smith if you think he's above Youngs, he's been generally awful all season. A few good arm chair rides in a black jersey doesn't justify world class.

Care is certainly not ahead of Youngs either. I'd go Genia out on his own then possibly Kahn then Youngs. Parra is the only other top scrum half but again he's not been playing well.

JdV is more a 12 and not a great one imo, I wouldn't consider him world class in either centre position.

On Manu, not a chance BOD is currently a better player, if you forgot about reputation and watched BOD for the first time recently nobody would come to than conclusion imo.

On 13, I'd agree on Smith & AAC ahead at 13. JD & Manu would fight it out for that 3rd spot. JD is a bit more steady but Tuilagi can reach heights he can't imo so just sneaks it....2 top players though.

Have to disagree there mate. Don't forget the new season has already started for us. I know you were probably watching the Lions but some of us got up a bit earlier and he was back in form in the black jersey and looked much better. It was last season where his kicking game was way off and he got scragged at the breakdown where he looked highly dubious. He looked a lot more composed in June and will probably start in Sydney this weekend based on those performances.

i wouldn't call him world class but no way he's generally awful.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't help but feel/hope there'll be a lot of talk about Wade, Eastmond and B Vunipola from Englands perspective. When is Eli Walker going to get a chance for Wales as he looks excellent.

Eli has some huge boots to fill if he wants a cap for Wales without Cuthbert or North getting injured and giving him an opportunity. Good news is that he is fit and in training after a lengthy period out with a back injury...

Wade, Eastmond and Vuni II look great in attack. Could well be star names come 2015...

Kia, I stated Smith was generally awful this season and I'd stick by it. He certainly picked up in the last few games of the season but looked far from the scrum half that burst on the scene last year.

TJ has looked by far the better prospect this year imo but most of the posters just see Smith put in a few top games last year then bizarrely include him as world class.

It perhaps shows the lack of knowledge of other nations domestic leagues which devalues the overall input on a thread like this.

All fun though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kia, I stated Smith was generally awful this season and I'd stick by it. He certainly picked up in the last few games of the season but looked far from the scrum half that burst on the scene last year.

TJ has looked by far the better prospect this year imo but most of the posters just see Smith put in a few top games last year then bizarrely include him as world class.

It perhaps shows the lack of knowledge of other nations domestic leagues which devalues the overall input on a thread like this.

All fun though.

More likely that the good performances are so good that you can see he is a cut above the rest... He is definitely top three in my opinion.

Takes more than a few good games to be considered world class for me. A sign of a top player is the ability to adapt once the opposition have figured you out at the top level.

This is something Smith failed to do. He looked excellent getting clean ball and providing snappy service. As soon as the England game when he service was disrupted and he was targeted he fell to bits. He's not really fully recovered from this yet imo, the 4N will be a serious test for him.

Makes me chuckle when I see posters put him ahead of seasoned performers because of a few good games nearly a year ago, each to their own I guess.

For the Super reason he was dreadful I agree. Much like Dagg but picked up appreciably after he built confidence in the June tests. When you're talking about world class, I only consider test form. For most of 2012 Aaron Smith was a mixed bag and in the latter games a liability. Like I said, I don't consider him world class. But he looked sharp against France.

Club form is only relevant if it translates into test form. You can play amazing rugby for your club and that just makes you an amazing club player. You can play tripe for your club and then turn that form around in your test jersey. Aaron Smith did that in June and Nonu makes an AB career out of it. TJ's form is irrelevant at the moment (he's made the test squad so let's see if he gets a game in the RC) as he's never played in black (for representative age-group AB sides yes, admittedly). We can't really comment on Wade for the same reason as he's only just been capped for England.

I freely admit I don't know much about other national domestic leagues. I get a few Premiership games on teledeporte but frankly for me I never take into consideration club form. Test rugby is what counts for assessing world class players and I don't say that because the Chiefs beat the Crusaders.

Frankly all the test halfbacks are questionable at the moment. Genia only shows glimpses of what he's capable of and looked largely anonymous in the Lions series. Murray looked the pick of the halfbacks in the Lions tests and I don't see many people mentioning him. The rest all have their strengths but there's a lot to point out in terms of failings.

Good post Kia, largely agree with that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Takes more than a few good games to be considered world class for me. A sign of a top player is the ability to adapt once the opposition have figured you out at the top level.

This is something Smith failed to do. He looked excellent getting clean ball and providing snappy service. As soon as the England game when he service was disrupted and he was targeted he fell to bits. He's not really fully recovered from this yet imo, the 4N will be a serious test for him.

Makes me chuckle when I see posters put him ahead of seasoned performers because of a few good games nearly a year ago, each to their own I guess.

But you would consider Ben Youngs ahead of him, his form is as equally erratic as you consider Smiths'...!

And the bits you don't Sgt Pooly? I can take it. The semi final defeat by the Chiefs is still very much open and weeping but I'm willing to consider anything else.

If you watched this years S15 you wouldn't have posted that.

Smith has a few good tests behind him, Youngs is an established SH that's performed against the best teams over a number of years.

Just the carrying over of form into domestic rugby really Kia. I agree you can't be considered world class unless you play Int rugby but I like a player to keep a high standard outside of Ints.

As you said Nonu is an anomaly as he turns it on in a black shirt but is generally average in super rugby.

I think we'd all like that mate but often there are simply too many games to operate at a consistent level. Kieran Read normally does but McCaw is often overshadowed by Todd and not just this year with his sabbatical. Conrad Smith was pretty average for the Hurricanes but I'm hoping for big things from him before his break. Hore, Woodcock and Mealamu weren't convincing either but I'm really hoping they come right for NZ. Ben Smith was great for the Highlanders and carried that into a black shirt and Ranger made his NZ comeback based on his Blues performances and you could add Whitelock to that list but I'd suggest these are the ones that are anomalies. The ones that often stand out in the club games you wouldn't want to put in a test shirt and the ones that don't look too flash often come right when they put the test jersey on. Or maybe that's the NZ players and I'm looking at it through their eyes. Poor old France seemed to confirm though that club form doesn't account for test form.

Smith was often not picked for the Highlanders but that just shows you the importance of the players around you because it was hard to fault him against France and believe me I wanted to as I wasn't convinced by him in 2012. TJ is the more complete player evidently but he's still young and I don't think Smith was getting an arm chair ride against France. We were often beaten at the breakdown. Look at the support play in the first test for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh3jpdIcxzc.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If you watched this years S15 you wouldn't have posted that.

Smith has a few good tests behind him, Youngs is an established SH that's performed against the best teams over a number of years.

I did watch the Super XV and certainly saw a talented young player struggling to bring an average Highlanders up to the level he can play at. Maybe more the questionable coaching ability of Jamie Joseph.

Regarding Ben Youngs, he has had some good performances but plenty of very poor ones too.

I dare say his good games out way his poor ones.

On the few occasions he's went head to head against Genia for England he's managed to outplay him too. As well as motm performances against Aus, SA to name a few.

Youngs can blow hot and cold but has proved more on the top stage than Smith. As I said Genia is out on his own but Youngs is without doubt in a top 3 and the best the NH have to offer imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I dare say his good games out way his poor ones.

On the few occasions he's went head to head against Genia for England he's managed to outplay him too. As well as motm performances against Aus, SA to name a few.

Youngs can blow hot and cold but has proved more on the top stage than Smith. As I said Genia is out on his own but Youngs is without doubt in a top 3 and the best the NH have to offer imo.

I can't agree, good player but found wanting too often to be considered WC... On the Lions tour he finished third choice behind Murray and Phillips. Murray was the best scrum half on that tour, despite Phillips being injured he was still ahead of Youngs. Phillips and Genia have outplayed Youngs more often than Youngs has out played them...! I wouldnt consider any of the Lions three scrum halves in the top five let alone top three on recent form.

Yet you rate Smith there....baffling.

Youngs didn't suit Gatlands game plan that was pretty obvious from the outset, he was never going to shine.

Genia hasn't outplayed Youngs more at all, I don't think he ever has personally.

It's hard debating with somebody who keeps contradicting himself, we just go round in circles.

Youngs isn't world class because he's not consistent.

Smith is world class because he's had a few good tests.

Happy to agree to disagree.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yet you rate Smith there....baffling.

Youngs didn't suit Gatlands game plan that was pretty obvious from the outset, he was never going to shine.

Genia hasn't outplayed Youngs more at all, I don't think he ever has personally.

It's hard debating with somebody who keeps contradicting himself, we just go round in circles.

Youngs isn't world class because he's not consistent.

Smith is world class because he's had a few good tests.

Happy to agree to disagree.

Yes fair enough...! It is good to read peoples opinions and discuss their thoughts. I do value Ben Youngs, he is a talented player. Though don't hold him in as high esteem as you do.

it will be exciting to see what happens to our virtual pecking order through this RC and then the AI's...

From a Tigers fan I'd say Young is just outside the Top 3 of Genia. Pienaar and Fotuali'i but is still improving and should keep getting better. I think with B Youngs it's a case of people feeling he hasn't come on that much because no one part of his game has improved drastically compared to other parts. He always had a good pass, solid kicking game, solid game management and his obvious pace around the fringes. As he's played more every part of that has steadily got stronger in that he's improved his game management, added length to his kicking plus developed a better understanding of when to go for the break.

If he can keep improving each part of his game as he has pretty soon we'll start to see his true worth I think. The main point I'd like him to improve is his kicking, whilst it is better than many scrum halfs (Care's especially from an England perspective) one of my real bug bears is box kicks going too long so I'd like to see improve his judgement for chasers and add some variety with chips etc.

That said I'd definitely stick with him at 9 for England because if allowed to develop a partnership with Farrell I think they could flourish together with the likes of Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Wade and Yarde outside them.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Attwood 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

One thing I love about that side is the potential of so many players to develop into world class performers. Especially prudent to throw in M+V Vunipola, Parling, Wood, Burns, Eastmond, May, Foden and Tait to see that we have the strength in depth and talent to try a new game plan and combinations now rather than later.

It may be because Ben Youngs hasn't nailed down the 9 position for England. It's difficult to think of a player as world class if he's being subbed off or not making the starting team. You don't see that happening to Genia.

Like you say KC, there's a lot of exciting potential there for England and with your minor tweaks to the team (no Wood at 6?), it's a young team that could develop into a great side. I for one am looking forward to the game in November but not so much from the revenge angle but how really good a lot of these potentially great England players really are. If they put in another performance anywhere near similar to November, they will be a real handful in 2015. That pool already proves to be an enthralling battle but all three sides could be all hitting the top of their game by the time those matches occur. That's a frightening prospect! Especially if you're a supporter of one of those teams.

Wood would start ahead of Croft for me.

Youngs is England's 9 Kia, if he's fit he starts. Care provides stiff competition and is an excellent backup but he's not in Youngs class.

Carlos, Youngs kicking game has came on leaps over the last few years, I think he's excellent in this area. It was seen for the Lions with the poor quality of Phillips box kicking how far ahead Youngs is (Ive not seen an Int scrum half box kick as bad as Phillips).

I agree it's not always on the money as say a FdP but it's certainly not a weakness.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wood would start ahead of Croft for me.

Youngs is England's 9 Kia, if he's fit he starts. Care provides stiff competition and is an excellent backup but he's not in Youngs class.

Carlos, Youngs kicking game has came on leaps over the last few years, I think he's excellent in this area. It was seen for the Lions with the poor quality of Phillips box kicking how far ahead Youngs is (Ive not seen an Int scrum half box kick as bad as Phillips).

I agree it's not always on the money as say a FdP but it's certainly not a weakness.

Playing behind a beaten pack is his biggest weakness.

Do you mean not being able to play behind a beaten pack?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Do you mean not being able to play behind a beaten pack?

When he is playing behind a pack that is inferior to their opposition, Youngs struggles massively.

I think any halfback has that problem. Look at Genia.

Yea he's not fully mastered the art of being able to put in a top display when your pack is not on top and he doesn't get a good platform.

To be fair to him not many halfbacks do perform behind a beaten pack. Only ones that spring to mind are Genia(he's used to it with Aus) and perhaps Phillips who thrives with the physical aspect.

Aaron Smith is a polar opposite, he went to pieces in the England game and has really struggled when targeted. He's starting to develop here but Youngs for example is much stronger when on the back foot.

Genia was all but shut down in the Lions series.

I think a lot of players went to pieces in that England game but games against SA and Australia proved that Smith was poor when targeted. That's what pleased me in June because France often beat us at the breakdown.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea he's not fully mastered the art of being able to put in a top display when your pack is not on top and he doesn't get a good platform.

To be fair to him not many halfbacks do perform behind a beaten pack. Only ones that spring to mind are Genia(he's used to it with Aus) and perhaps Phillips who thrives with the physical aspect.

Aaron Smith is a polar opposite, he went to pieces in the England game and has really struggled when targeted. He's starting to develop here but Youngs for example is much stronger when on the back foot.

To be honest though the entire All blacks didn't turn up at HQ last year mate, though it would be hard to judge such talented team on that game.

Post that game Smith struggled, I was highlighting that it was seen he had a major weakness and he was then targeted by teams. His form suffered as a result and he had a poor Super season.

These kind of go back to why I don't think he's world class, if he comes back fully firing this 4N & AI he'll have really proved himself.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Post that game Smith struggled, I was highlighting that it was seen he had a major weakness and he was then targeted by teams. His form suffered as a result and he had a poor Super season.

I think a shock result as such would cause a number of doubts in a players confidence. He looks very much like he has over come that now and certainly looks in very good form going in to the RC.

Well it took him about 8 month to get over it.....

All good now though and definitely looking World Class, just in time for the International season.