How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

I don't know. I find the Georgian and Fijian posters on here to be very knowledgeable and free of national bias.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I don't know. I find the Georgian and Fijian posters on here to be very knowledgeable and free of national bias.

Yeah, but once they start they won't shut up.

If I see one more thread about the best ever Georgian XV or how many world class Fijians there are I'll go crazy  

The Namibians are the worst.

Zambians are the worst. They always bate Kiwis and they go on and on about that tackle. But what have they done since?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can't have seen much of Smith if you think he's above Youngs, he's been generally awful all season. A few good arm chair rides in a black jersey doesn't justify world class.

Care is certainly not ahead of Youngs either. I'd go Genia out on his own then possibly Kahn then Youngs. Parra is the only other top scrum half but again he's not been playing well.

JdV is more a 12 and not a great one imo, I wouldn't consider him world class in either centre position.

On Manu, not a chance BOD is currently a better player, if you forgot about reputation and watched BOD for the first time recently nobody would come to than conclusion imo.

On 13, I'd agree on Smith & AAC ahead at 13. JD & Manu would fight it out for that 3rd spot. JD is a bit more steady but Tuilagi can reach heights he can't imo so just sneaks it....2 top players though.

Have to disagree there mate. Don't forget the new season has already started for us. I know you were probably watching the Lions but some of us got up a bit earlier and he was back in form in the black jersey and looked much better. It was last season where his kicking game was way off and he got scragged at the breakdown where he looked highly dubious. He looked a lot more composed in June and will probably start in Sydney this weekend based on those performances.

i wouldn't call him world class but no way he's generally awful.

Thought Smith looked pretty world class on Saturday against the Aussie lad who is number one by a country mile...!

Cyril wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I don't know. I find the Georgian and Fijian posters on here to be very knowledgeable and free of national bias.

Yeah, but once they start they won't shut up.

If I see one more thread about the best ever Georgian XV or how many world class Fijians there are I'll go crazy  

Nalaga's pretty good.

Who's Nalaga? Never seen him play. Is he Fijian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napolioni_Nalaga

Sivivatu who plays on the other wing for Clermont I mentioned earlier in the thread as being a very good candidate. There is some tough competition on the wing.

He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

Sivivatu was lethal with ball in hand but I always remember he used to be poor under the high ball. But boy, could he glide effortlessly with the ball.

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

You can't be judged world class if you're not playing against the worlds best players

Tbf he does have 29 tries for the All Blacks

ChequeredJersey wrote:Tbf he does have 29 tries for the All Blacks

Had, is the operative word though.

He was dropped from the All BLacks because he had no aerial skills, and after 2009, New Zealand realised they need a back three with all round skills.

Rokocoko has 47, he's not world class either.

If you're not being tested against the worlds best players you simply cannot be judged world class. It's a bit of a pointless debate really.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

You can't be judged world class if you're not playing against the worlds best players

Ofcourse you can, the worlds best players also play club rugby.

In the HC semi and finals the wingers were:

Earls, Zebo, Pallison, Wulf.

Which one of these that Sivivatu played against is world class bearing in mind this is the pinicle of NH rugby??

Sivivatu would not start for NZ if he was playing there, how can you be world class if you can't even get in your national side?!?!

You're crazy Maest

How are we defining 'world class'? For me it is the best player in his position on the planet, others would say it's top 2 (would make any squad in the planet) some think its top 3/5.

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

You can't be judged world class if you're not playing against the worlds best players

Ofcourse you can, the worlds best players also play club rugby.

The highest individual acolade in NH rugby is held by Johnny Wilkinson the 5 nominees were

• Julien Bonnaire (Back row, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Wesley Fofana (Centre, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Jamie Heaslip (No 8, Leinster Rugby)
• Sitiveni Sivivatu (Wing, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Jonny Wilkinson (Out-half, Toulon)

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

You can't be judged world class if you're not playing against the worlds best players

Ofcourse you can, the worlds best players also play club rugby.

The highest individual acolade in NH rugby is held by Johnny Wilkinson the 5 nominees were

• Julien Bonnaire (Back row, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Wesley Fofana (Centre, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Jamie Heaslip (No 8, Leinster Rugby)
• Sitiveni Sivivatu (Wing, ASM Clermont Auvergne)
• Jonny Wilkinson (Out-half, Toulon)

Problem with accolades is that they measure you in the competition you competed in.

So he got the highest accolade for HC.

Wilkinson for me has always been a world class player, but unfortunately he career is coming to an end, he was once a world class player, but every player gets to a point in his career when that is no longer the case.

That was the HC Trev, again not the highest level.

I certainly wouldn't say Wilkinson was currently world class.

Mmm, but once you've become world class, that's it, you've made it. He'll be described in interviews as world class, it's permanent right? That's why it's such a special moniker and shouldn't be dished out willy nilly. Because if you're truly world class, you're not gonna embarrass everyone that gave you that honour by playing like a chimp the season after. IMO, world class = min 3-4 years as top 1-2 player on the 'international' stage. International = world, right? Not club.

There is a difference between having been a world class player and currently being regarded as one of the best three in the world.

Hence calling any player world class is rather moot or subjective in my view.

What if Dan Carter is 38 years old and plays for his club in NZ, just a weekend runa bout. He no longer is a world class player.

But in his prime he was a world class player.

It is a term that should be very carefully banded about

In fact I would suggest that we just call them Leading players in their position.

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

I was going by the title of the thread actually. But I agree with what some of the others said, he's no longer world class.

nganboy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

I was going by the title of the thread actually. But I agree with what some of the others said, he's no longer world class.

He was the best player in the HEC last season in my opinion.

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

I was going by the title of the thread actually. But I agree with what some of the others said, he's no longer world class.

He was the best player in the HEC last season in my opinion.

He isn't Welsh though mate, that's unlike you

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nganboy wrote:He's not in a national team though so surely he doesn't count.

I think if your world class it doesn't matter if you play international rugby or not. He is phenominal for Clermont.

I was going by the title of the thread actually. But I agree with what some of the others said, he's no longer world class.

He was the best player in the HEC last season in my opinion.

I think many would agree with you there. That might suggest though that the best first fives are not playing in the HEC or are but did not have a good season.

Fist fives now, I thought this was about the top three?

Glas a du wrote:Fist fives now, I thought this was about the top three?

Still only top three...

And no fractions either.

Plenty of factions though

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That was the HC Trev, again not the highest level.

I certainly wouldn't say Wilkinson was currently world class.

Ok so then the last nominated IRB players of the Year would be more representative?

Ritchie McCaw
Dan Carter
Owen Farrell
Freddie Michalak

Just to remind people
The panel comprises Will Greenwood, Gavin Hastings, Raphael Ibanez, Francois Pienaar, Agustin Pichot, Scott Quinnell, Tana Umaga and Paul Wallace

Possibly yea although the voting system is slightly strange I seem to recall.

A player gets points each Int game depending on how valuable he was in the sides performance.

Somebody like Farrell for example scored highly because he kicked a lot of points in a pretty structured England side. This again doesn't mean a player is world class, he's just important to that side.

Yes found this Sgt P.

'The panel have deliberated on every major Test played in 2012, starting with the opening RBS 6 Nations match and culminating with the November Internationals. In total they have watched around 100 hours of action, awarding points to the three players they thought stood out in each match.

“This has been one of the closest years to date. In fact the result could be influenced significantly by this weekend’s matches, making it a highly contested prize,” said panel chairman Eales.

Among those players unlucky to miss out on the shortlist are New Zealand number 8 Kieran Read, Australian duo Michael Hooper and Berrick Barnes, Scotland’s Ross Rennie, Springbok wing Bryan Habana and Argentina’s inspirational captain Juan Martín Fernandez '

So if you have a team like the All Blacks you could be outstanding but have 3 guys who were better so get nothing in this system. On the other hand you can have a team like England who are bedding in a lot of players so a point scorer can stand out a bit more. Doesn't mean that the point scorer is a better players than the NZ bunch.

I rate Farrell but it's just to make the point that this system has very evident flaws.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if you have a team like the All Blacks you could be outstanding but have 3 guys who were better so get nothing in this system. On the other hand you can have a team like England who are bedding in a lot of players so a point scorer can stand out a bit more. Doesn't mean that the point scorer is a better players than the NZ bunch.

I rate Farrell but it's just to make the point that this system has very evident flaws.

Exactly, bit of a farce really.

Half backs & 7's tend to have more impact (or are more noticeable) in games so tend to score highly too making it harder for others to get included.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if you have a team like the All Blacks you could be outstanding but have 3 guys who were better so get nothing in this system. On the other hand you can have a team like England who are bedding in a lot of players so a point scorer can stand out a bit more. Doesn't mean that the point scorer is a better players than the NZ bunch.

I rate Farrell but it's just to make the point that this system has very evident flaws.

That's only true if you know so little about rugby that you can't tell the difference between a player with World Class talent and a player who is average playing in a very average team.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if you have a team like the All Blacks you could be outstanding but have 3 guys who were better so get nothing in this system. On the other hand you can have a team like England who are bedding in a lot of players so a point scorer can stand out a bit more. Doesn't mean that the point scorer is a better players than the NZ bunch.

I rate Farrell but it's just to make the point that this system has very evident flaws.

That's only true if you know so little about rugby that you can't tell the difference between a player with World Class talent and a player who is average playing in a very average team.

It has nothing to do with being world class.

The comment was relating to the IRB awards which are given out to players who make the most impact on the game.

A player doesn't have to be the best in his position to be put up for this and it's nothing to do with thinking a player has world class talent or is average in an average team.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if you have a team like the All Blacks you could be outstanding but have 3 guys who were better so get nothing in this system. On the other hand you can have a team like England who are bedding in a lot of players so a point scorer can stand out a bit more. Doesn't mean that the point scorer is a better players than the NZ bunch.

I rate Farrell but it's just to make the point that this system has very evident flaws.

That's only true if you know so little about rugby that you can't tell the difference between a player with World Class talent and a player who is average playing in a very average team.

What's only true? You like this rating system?

Yes #7&1/2. Are there times in the IRB PoY scoring system when they say, heck, they all played like crap so we don't award any points in this match?

Apparently not by the looks of it which makes the whole thing a bit pointless. I think most people would look at the list though and realise it's not made up of the best players.

To me, you're a world class player if you can compete with the best on a consistent basis. Adam Jones is a world class player, but doesn't play in a world class team and perhaps wouldn't make a lot of peoples World XV. That doesn't mean he cant compete with the best in the world.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That was the HC Trev, again not the highest level.

I certainly wouldn't say Wilkinson was currently world class.

Ok so then the last nominated IRB players of the Year would be more representative?

Ritchie McCaw
Dan Carter
Owen Farrell
Freddie Michalak

Just to remind people
The panel comprises Will Greenwood, Gavin Hastings, Raphael Ibanez, Francois Pienaar, Agustin Pichot, Scott Quinnell, Tana Umaga and Paul Wallace

I still find that list a struggle if I'm being honest. Surprised Keith Wood wasn't involved!

I have images of the panel sitting down to watch the game all earnest to begin with, pen and pad in hand and comments made and ongoing debate about contributions.

Halftime and the floor is strewn with beer cans and everyone is on the hard stuff. Songs and drinking games and Quinnel's jersey over the tv.

The following day, sprit bottles and face paint. No one has a clue where they are or how they got there.

Later that afternoon a flashback. Someone remembers the purpose of their get together. Nobody has any memory of any rugby being played.

Serious faces. Someone breaks the tension by suggesting Farrell. Everybody laughs. Someone mentions Michalak. More laughter. Gav says come on lads we have to be serious. Today is the deadline for the nominees and we dont have a clue. Quinell says he's right. There's no more booze. Chuck Richie and Dan down with the other two, send off the nominations and let's get some more booze in us. My head is killing me.

And that's how the IRB player of the year gets picked.

 

I think you're spot on. Perhaps somewhere along the line Paul Wallace also rang Keith Wood for his input, but had to say "No Keith, you can't nominate BOD four times!".

Leigh Halfpenny has only one rival for the crown for being the best full-back in the world – New Zealand sensation Israel Dagg.

That’s the verdict of former Wales and All Blacks star Shane Howarth as Halfpenny returns to full training following his stunning exploits with the Lions.

This year’s official Six Nations player of the tournament was named man of the Lions series after the best players from Great Britain and Ireland combined to beat Australia 2-1 with a record 41-16 thumping in the third Test decider in Sydney.

Not only did Halfpenny rack up a record 49 points during the series, he produced some dazzling attacking play, pulled off some amazing tackles and his positional play was exemplary as the ball seemed to be guided to him like a magnet.

Sky Sports rugby commentator Miles Harrison summed up the 24-year-old’s flawless performances with the words: “How many Leigh Halfpenny’s are there on the pitch?”

And Howarth, an influential member of the Wales team which powered to a record-equalling 11 victories in a row in 1999 and beat South Africa for the first and so far only time, installed the Blues star as top of his fab four of Welsh stars.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/leigh-halfpenny-only-one-rival-5781908

As much as I hate to admit it, I think that Wales currently have the best back three unit in world rugby. Cuthbert, Halfpenny and North. Very well balanced unit. Two world class players, with one potentially world class winger who might well be the best finisher of the lot. Very dangerous, with Halfpenny providing extreme solidity from the back.

Obviously NZ are the biggest contenders here, but right now this welsh back three owns the title. Other teams either haven't been able to build a unit yet, or just aren't as good. This welsh one may also be around for a long time.

How wrong you are George......

11. Strettle
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Is light years ahead of anything currently imo

Rory_Gallagher wrote: This welsh one may also be around for a long time.

Yep they are all three young guys with two six nations win and a great RWC behind them. We have some good lads as back up too, hopefully they will be pushed by those below them.