How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Watch Davies against Ireland at the start of the 6 Nations. Not a "world class" player yet. More consistency needed. The Lions was a huge step in the right direction, but he needs to back that up.

I am sure the more you watch him the more you will realise what a talent he is.

Ok, well I stand patronised!

NZ is a world class team. How many others can be said to be called that?  

The Saint wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
Ha, very well if you want to throw the gauntlet down. I have picked this team on long-term form, proven class (where possible) and for combinations:

1. A Corbisiero
2. B Du Plessis
3. A Jones
4. B Botha
5. P O'Connell
6. W Alberts
7. R McCaw
8. K Read

9. W Genia
10. D Carter
11. B Habana
12. J Roberts
13. C Smith
14. T Bowe
15. I Daag

16. A Strauss 17. T Domingo 18. D Cole 19. E Etzebeth 20. T Dusatoir 21. B Youngs 22. A Cruden 23. C Jane

Again as I have said above massively subjective. Plenty of points for debate. I'm sure not many would put Alberts in as the best 6 in the world but for what I want from my BS he fits the bill. Likewise Ben Youngs is debateable but I don't think with that pack he'll spend much time on the back foot. And so it goes on..

If it's long term-form, then Corbs wouldn't get in the team.

The criteria was not, in theory cumulative and thus could be read in part, as exclusive. In any event Corbisiero has been playing for England for two and a half years, was part of a front row which has dominated others including South Africa and New Zealand. He has backed that up by being superb for the Lions and drawing specific praise from Gats.

I would concede he has not been around as long as Domingo or Woodcock but that alone does not make a great player. Woodcock has been good for the ABs but never looked in the same class as some past greats on the LH side.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:NZ is a world class team. How many others can be said to be called that?  

Wales, Ospreys, Blues, Dragons and Scarlets.

All world class. Easy. Next question.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:NZ is a world class team. How many others can be said to be called that?  

Wales, Ospreys, Blues, Dragons and Scarlets.

All world class. Easy. Next question.

You forgot Neath.

1.Healy
2.Du Plessis
3.Jones
4.Etzebeth
5.O'Connell
6.Lobbe
7.McCaw
8.Read

9.Genia
10.Carter

11.Savea
12.Fofana
13.Smith
14.North
15.Dagg

If I were picking a world XV at the minute that would be it. Full back is a pretty close call between Dagg, Halfpenny and Beale. Wings are also harder to call with Habana now getting on a bit, Bowe injured, Ioane injured, Jane having been injured then Savea, North, Folau, etc all inexperienced and O'Connor position hoping. I'd go for North/Savea at the moment though.

The pack, for myself anyway, is more straight forward but I still have to say that if he were fit I'd get Ferris in at 6 straight away. At his best he just offers an all round game that no other 6 currently gives IMO - though Lobbe isn't a second choice to complain about!

As a side note, I must say I was tempted to move McCaw to 6 and put Hooper at 7 as I feel 6.McCaw 7.Hooper 8.Read could complement each other fantastically.

Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

king_carlos wrote:1.Healy
2.Du Plessis
3.Jones
4.Etzebeth
5.O'Connell
6.Lobbe
7.McCaw
8.Read

9.Genia
10.Carter

11.Savea
12.Folau
13.Smith
14.North
15.Dagg

If I were picking a world XV at the minute that would be it. Full back is a pretty close call between Dagg, Halfpenny and Beale. Wings are also harder to call with Habana now getting on a bit, Bowe injured, Ioane injured, Jane having been injured then Savea, North, Folau, etc all inexperienced and O'Connor position hoping. I'd go for North/Savea at the moment though.

The pack, for myself anyway, is more straight forward but I still have to say that if he were fit I'd get Ferris in at 6 straight away. At his best he just offers an all round game that no other 6 currently gives IMO - though Lobbe isn't a second choice to complain about!

As a side note, I must say I was tempted to move McCaw to 6 and put Hooper at 7 as I feel 6.McCaw 7.Hooper 8.Read could complement each other fantastically.

Do you mean Nonu here?

AN interesting thought to further this debate would be who would you guys see as being a World Best XV post 2015 RWC...?

A good number of the players suggested are still well in their prime, some, like North still very young...!

Presume you mean Fofana at 12? Defo the best 12 in the world. Folau is a great winger but no a 12.

I wouldnt call North inexperienced at all either.

Chjw131 wrote:Do you mean Nonu here?

Id say he meant Fofana.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

He Played in the Home 15 - 16 and Away 36 - 27 losses.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

Well see now what you're doing here is attributing team accolades to the individual. Whilst Woodcock has played his part these do not automatically equate to him being the starting world class LH in a world XV.

Let's take a player like Lewis Moody - world cup winner, GS, two times RWC finalist, 71 caps - does that make him better than David Pocock? Heinrich Brussow? Sam Warburton etc? Arguably, no.

Woodcock has twice been dominated by the England front row on the last two occasions they have faced each other. He is the ABs LH by dint of the fact no one wants to see the Franks brothers play together in the same unit and a lack of other high class options. I'm not saying he's not a high class player, he is but he's behind the likes of Healy, Mtwarira, Jenkins, Corbs and Sheridan for my money.

Cheers. Yes, I stand corrected. England were strong in the scrum in that 15-16 defeat and Corbisiero featured in that scrum, the one where Robshaw went for 3 points at the end.

In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

He Played in the Home 15 - 16 and  Away 36 - 27 losses.

The scoreline was regrettable in that AI game but are you trying to suggest that England were dominated in that match? If so check the stats:

SA concede 60% of the territory, 58% possession and concede 18 penalties in that match.

Biltong wrote:In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

If you were to consider JdV as inside or outside centre where would you play him?

Chjw131 - it's a fair point, and I would certainly agree that Woodcock is not the player he was 2-3 years ago. He seems to have faded in the last 12 months, whereas Corbisiero is going from strength to strength. I also agree that there tends to be an "All Black premium" attaching to players. The assumption that you have to be world class to be an All Black. There are certainly examples of this not being true (Stephen Donald anyone?). Still, Woodcock has 98 caps for the All Blacks. Until very recently he's always been a good (never destructive) scrummager, and has an excellent allround game.

I guess it comes down to form vs class, as noted above. Woodcock has featured in "World XV" debates for near on a decade. Corbisiero has featured in "World XV" debates for near on a month.

Biltong wrote:In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

I wouldn't say he was playing better than AAC. I don't see JdV as top player tbh, Nonu will be average in the S15 then turn it on Ints.

The change in the England scrum when Corbs plays is quite something, I can't recall us ever getting dominated when he plays, in fact quite the opposite.

Woodcock has struggled for a few years in the set piece, he's been a fantastic LH in his prime but isn't anywhere near that these days.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chjw131 - it's a fair point, and I would certainly agree that Woodcock is not the player he was 2-3 years ago. He seems to have faded in the last 12 months, whereas Corbisiero is going from strength to strength. I also agree that there tends to be an "All Black premium" attaching to players. The assumption that you have to be world class to be an All Black. There are certainly examples of this not being true (Stephen Donald anyone?). Still, Woodcock has 98 caps for the All Blacks. Until very recently he's always been a good (never destructive) scrummager, and has an excellent allround game.

I guess it comes down to form vs class, as noted above. Woodcock has featured in "World XV" debates for near on a decade. Corbisiero has featured in "World XV" debates for near on a month.

I take your point about longevity. I have had similar debates with others surrounding the notion of talent and how that can be gauged from an objective point of view. Greats of the game like Os Du Randt stand out because they are unique and by virtue of that fact there aren't many players whom one may term truly 'world class'.

All we can do is draw on experience and look for those markers that define current players as being in, or having the potential to be in, those leagues.

I'd agree that Corbisiero has the potential to be in that league. No question. He likes to handle the ball, he's a strong scrummager and has an excellent workrate. If he sustains his Lions form he'll certainly make it.

Du Randt is unquestionnably a legend of the game. He was an absolute brute of a player. Managing to cope with Du Randt in 1997 was one of the great scrum coaching achievements by Jim Telfer. Even then, I remember the mess Du Randt made of Paul Wallace in that first scrum in the 1st Test. It looked like that would be game over, but Wallace and Smith stuck in.

Be interesting to see with the front rowers how the new scrum laws may alter our perceptions on who is and isn't world class. I think the new laws will very much suit a lad like Corbisiero, time will tell.

maestegmafia wrote:Be interesting to see with the front rowers how the new scrum laws may alter our perceptions on who is and isn't world class. I think the new laws will very much suit a lad like Corbisiero, time will tell.

maes, my view is that weaker scrummagers who can no longer 'hide' behind a successful hit will be outed, and that the true technicians will come to the fore - what are your thoughts?

I agree with that ASBO. The props who relied on the early hit and "fading" in order to con the ref will be in trouble. The Beast strikes me as a prime example of a prop who could be less effective under the new regime. Mako Vunipola could be another to struggle. Neither are technically strong by international standards.

A huge generalisation no doubt, but I wonder whether we'll see slightly smaller yet more technical scrummagers (e.g. Cole, Domingo and Healy) to the fore, with more powerful locks in the engine room.

This will be met with the usual barrage no doubt, but I wonder whether Adam Jones will continue to be so effective. He was the master of the hit. Totally conned Joubert at Murrayfield this season - we barely completed a single scrummage. He's clearly a strong scrummager in any case, but he excelled in "winning" penalties.

Chjw131 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:1.Healy
2.Du Plessis
3.Jones
4.Etzebeth
5.O'Connell
6.Lobbe
7.McCaw
8.Read

9.Genia
10.Carter

11.Savea
12.Folau
13.Smith
14.North
15.Dagg

If I were picking a world XV at the minute that would be it. Full back is a pretty close call between Dagg, Halfpenny and Beale. Wings are also harder to call with Habana now getting on a bit, Bowe injured, Ioane injured, Jane having been injured then Savea, North, Folau, etc all inexperienced and O'Connor position hoping. I'd go for North/Savea at the moment though.

The pack, for myself anyway, is more straight forward but I still have to say that if he were fit I'd get Ferris in at 6 straight away. At his best he just offers an all round game that no other 6 currently gives IMO - though Lobbe isn't a second choice to complain about!

As a side note, I must say I was tempted to move McCaw to 6 and put Hooper at 7 as I feel 6.McCaw 7.Hooper 8.Read could complement each other fantastically.

Do you mean Nonu here?

I meant Fofana as a few have guessed! Apologies and cheers for pointing it out, now corrected it in the original post.

Biltong wrote:In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

Moot point cause Fofana is much better than the lot of them.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

Moot point cause Fofana is much better than the lot of them.

Really?

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:In current form, Jean de Villiers is better than Nonu and AAC.

Moot point cause Fofana is much better than the lot of them.

Really?

He's certainly better than JdV

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Be interesting to see with the front rowers how the new scrum laws may alter our perceptions on who is and isn't world class. I think the new laws will very much suit a lad like Corbisiero, time will tell.

maes, my view is that weaker scrummagers who can no longer 'hide' behind a successful hit will be outed, and that the true technicians will come to the fore - what are your thoughts?

Aye mate I agree wholeheartedly... And I think your lads like Murray and Grant will prosper immensely.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

du Randt the best loosehead of the last 20 years? Jason Leonard might have something to say about that.

I think the point with Corbs is that his individual performances have invariably been impressive, but his career has been so interrupted by his chronic knee problem that only fairly avid England or LI followers have seen enough of him to form a strong view.

maestegmafia wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Be interesting to see with the front rowers how the new scrum laws may alter our perceptions on who is and isn't world class. I think the new laws will very much suit a lad like Corbisiero, time will tell.

maes, my view is that weaker scrummagers who can no longer 'hide' behind a successful hit will be outed, and that the true technicians will come to the fore - what are your thoughts?

Aye mate I agree wholeheartedly... And I think your lads like Murray and Grant will prosper immensely.

Based on what Census Johnston has said on ESPN, we will see physically strong players with efficient technique and good aerobic fitness win out over the power merchants, certainly over the course of a match. A lot will depend on how well coaches have adapted their conditioning programmes.

Poorfour wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Out of interest, when did Corbisiero dominate the South African front row?

In terms of his "two and a half year" England career, you should remember that he's been injured a fair chunk of that. He has 16 caps.

Woodcock has 98 caps and has been playing international rugby for 11 years. He has won the World Cup (scoring in the final), the Tri-nations a number of times and has been consistently strong throughout that period. Whilst I think there's a valid debate to be had as to whether he's as good as Craig Dowd, and I don't think he's as good as Du Randt (the best loosehead of the last 20 years in my opinion), debating whether or not he's world class seems strange to me. I certainly don't think Alex Corbisiero is ahead of him in the list of great looseheads.

du Randt the best loosehead of the last 20 years? Jason Leonard might have something to say about that.

I think the point with Corbs is that his individual performances have invariably been impressive, but his career has been so interrupted by his chronic knee problem that only fairly avid England or LI followers have seen enough of him to form a strong view.

I would have him in top three.

Be interesting to see how Beast goes this weekend.

I can't wait to see the new scrummaging laws come in. On TheRoar, Scott Allen formerly of Green and Gold has postulated his well informed view on the new laws (on how they affect Australia's front row selections but the basis can be extrapolated generally)

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

ChequeredJersey wrote:I can't wait to see the new scrummaging laws come in. On TheRoar, Scott Allen formerly of Green and Gold has postulated his well informed view on the new laws (on how they affect Australia's front row selections but the basis can be extrapolated generally)

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

Good find CJ, that's a very interesting read mate.

Thanks Scott's usually worth reading, even when he's wrong he uses stats in a very constructive and intelligent way

ChequeredJersey wrote:Thanks :thumbsup:Scott's usually worth reading, even when he's wrong he uses stats in a very constructive and intelligent way

Ill check out some his other articles too...!you should post that link in the scrum law changes thread...!

Interesting question

Top 3 in their position


1. Cian Healy (IRE) / Alex Corbesiero (ENG) / Tony Woodcock (NZL)

Roncero before he retired.


2. Bismark Du Plessis (SA) (still recovering form after injury) / Kevin Mealamu (NZ) / Stephen Moore (AUS)

Never been a fan of the new French hooker, always been a fan of Moore. Youngs and Hibbard are the best of the NH atm, but the experience Moore and Mealamu take it.


3. Adam Jones (WAL) / Owen Franks (NZ) / Dan Cole (ENG)

Mas an unlucky exclusion


Locks. No order. Paul O'Connell (IRE) / Alun Wyn Jones (WAL) / James Horwill (AUS) / Sam Whitelock (NZL) / Eben Etzebeth (SA) / Patricio Albacete (ARG)

Pretty difficult without Thorn, Bakkies, Matfield, Johnson etc. Mixture of the old experience and young inexperience. No standout at the moment.


6. Thierry Dusatoir (FRA) / Liam Messam (bold claim) (NZL) / Wilhelm Alberts (SA)

Difficult one, Lydiate misses out just. 6/7 players like Robshaw and recently Warburton could come into it actually as there is no real standout blindside with much consistency.


7. Richie McCaw (NZL) / David Pocock (reputation) (AUS) / Sam Warburton (WAL)

Tough again, Pocock and McCaw have the big reputation. Warburton hasn't shown his full potential, but hasn't been bad recently - his Lion's captaincy gives him the nod over Robshaw, SOB, Hooper and Tipuric. (Alberts and Dusatoir used as 6s)


8. Sergio Parisse (ITA) / Louis Picamoles (FRA) / Keiran Read (NZL)

Easiest one so far, not many can complain about this one.


9. Will Genia (AUS) / Ruan Pienaar (SA) / Morgan Parra (FRA)

Genia clearly. Big fan of Pienaar, been fantastic for Ulster. Parra can change a game.


10. Dan 'still the man' Carter (NZL) / Jonathan Sexton (IRE) / Aaron Cruden (NZL)

First two are easy. Two All Blacks shows how weak other countries are in that position


11. George North (WAL) / Julien Savea (NZL) / Brian Habana (SA)

Folau is heading in the right direction. Habana isn't at his peak, but is still a very class winger. Savea is electric, but still a bit raw.


12. Wesley Fofana (FRA) / Ma Nonu (NZL) / ???

Sonny Bill Williams not competing. No one outstanding after Fofana, Nonu on experience, no clear 3rd.


13. Conrad Smith (NZL) / Jonathan Davies (WAL) / Brian O'Driscoll (IRE)

Big fan of JD2 and he proved a lot with the Lions. O'Driscoll on experience over the other options Tuilagi, AAC and Bosch.


14. Vincent Clerc (FRA) / Tommy Bowe (IRE) / JP Pietersen (SA)

Lots of options, hard to narrow down


15. Leigh Halfpenny (WAL) / Israel Dagg (NZL) / Keartley Beale (AUS)

Beale showed glimpses against the Lions, Kearney, Hogg, Foden, Brown, Medard all possibilities.


So,

New Zealand - 13
South Africa - 6
Australia - 6
Wales - 6
England - 2
Ireland - 5
France - 5
Argentina - 1
Italy - 1

Anyone from Wales. 1 to 23 they are all world beaters.

Metal Tiger wrote:Anyone from Wales. 1 to 23 they are all world beaters.

Is 'their day' this Autumn? It's been one helluva long wait so far!

Top three?
Adam Jones
Halfpenny

Wales606 wrote:Interesting question

Top 3 in their position


1. Cian Healy (IRE)

Sorry, I'm sure it's an excellent list, but I couldn't read any further...

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Anyone from Wales. 1 to 23 they are all world beaters.

Is 'their day' this Autumn? It's been one helluva long wait so far!

Not actually Welsh just thought it would save time & arguement to get it out in the open early...

Some might say that their day was a few weeks ago... unfortunately they had to have help from some annoying foreigners (just there to make up the quotas) so it didn't count as their day.

But yes.

Definitely this Autumn.

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I can't wait to see the new scrummaging laws come in. On TheRoar, Scott Allen formerly of Green and Gold has postulated his well informed view on the new laws (on how they affect Australia's front row selections but the basis can be extrapolated generally)

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/13/why-the-new-scrum-laws-help-ben-alexander-but-hurt-benn-robinson/

Good find CJ, that's a very interesting read mate.

That's a really great article. I've never come across this website, but some of the other articles look equally as interesting after a skim read. Here's to an unproductive day!

Anyone read the comments underneath that article? A lot of talk about the changing shape of hookers in the future to meet their new scrum-demands. Apparently Pocock has been touted to possibly make a move to the no.2 slot?

Poorfour wrote:du Randt the best loosehead of the last 20 years? Jason Leonard might have something to say about that.

He might, but I'd still give the nod to Os du Randt. Both very strong scrummagers but Du Randt was more destructive in my opinion, and held the slight edge in terms of ball carrying ability.

Some great looseheads to choose from in the "world class" category over the last 20 years:

Du Randt, Leonard, Dowd, Jenkins, Roncero and Smith. I'm sure I've missed a couple.

Which Jenkins?

Metal Tiger wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Anyone from Wales. 1 to 23 they are all world beaters.

Is 'their day' this Autumn? It's been one helluva long wait so far!

Not actually Welsh just thought it would save time & arguement to get it out in the open early...

Some might say that their day was a few weeks ago... unfortunately they had to have help from some annoying foreigners (just there to make up the quotas) so it didn't count as their day.

But yes.

Definitely this Autumn.

Early?? We've had over 300 posts!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Which Jenkins?

Gethin. Was there another Jenkins at loosehead who could be considered "world class" in the last 20 years??

Not sure Jenkins deserves to be in that crowd tbh

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not sure Jenkins deserves to be in that crowd tbh

Don't see why not

He was the best loosehead in the world for a fair while,

and for consistency he has been on the last 3 Lions tours, no other loosehead has been on more in the last 20 years.

Yeh, anyone who has already declared Alex Corbisiero a "world class" player, and yet doesn't rate Gethin Jenkins in his prime a "world class" loosehead is suffering from poor judgement in my opinion.

Whilst always solid in the scrum, I struggle to think of a better prop in the loose, and he has sustained form at the top of the game for a decade, making three Lions tours and starting in 5 Lions Test matches.