How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You can only be world class if you play for a test team. Otherwise it's just masturbation...

 

Strange rules, why impose that on yourself?  

I wouldn't say any Scottish players are world class.

Richie Gray and Stuart Hogg both have the talent to be world class, but neither are there yet. In fact both are some way short.

I wouldn't say Gray's short FES. He looks like a big unit to me. Hogg looks pretty tall if you stand him next to Halfpenny.

I'd say your back row players have the best chance of calling themselves world class. Unfortunately they have an annoying tendency to get injured.

Who are the world class wingers in rugby at the moment?

Keith Earls

Sweet, one down, 2 spots left.

1. Kieth Earls
2.
3.

Ashton has the skill set (Shame its wasted on him!)

North has to be up there.

A good question ebop. Ioane's off the boil and Folau looks good but way too early to even think about calling him world class. Habana was looking good last year so he's certainly worth a shout. North has probably enough tests under his belt but in my mind he's like Savea. Young and full of evident talent but still growing in their roles (which is a frightening prospect). We haven't had enough consistent selections or the right game plan with France for any of their wingers to shine. England has a fullback and an out of form on the wing and the one that looks in good form has only just earned a cap against a diluted Argentina. Alesana Tuilagi might make it for Manu Samoa but we hardly ever get to see them anywhere near full strength.

Plenty of names in the hat but I agree not many names leap out at me.

ebop wrote:Who are the world class wingers in rugby at the moment?

I would say the best in the business are:

Israel Folau
George North
Sitiveni Sivivatu

In my book, only Clerc, JP, Habana, Bowe, North, Jane can all claim to have played enough at the highest level to be world class wingers.

Folau looks fantastic but still has a but to prove to be classed as world class.

I'd have North, Savea, Habana, Bowe(possibly)

Bathite wrote:In my book, only Clerc, JP, Habana, Bowe, North, Jane can all claim to have played enough at the highest level to be world class wingers.

Certainly some good calls there mate, though Bowe hasnt played much through unfortunate injury, Clerc hasn't been on great form, JP and Habana have had good seasons but for me Folau (Tahs/Aus), North (Wales/Lions) and Sivi (Clermont) have been a class above this year.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Folau looks fantastic but still has a but to prove to be classed as world class.

I'd have North, Savea, Habana, Bowe(possibly)

Savea is a very good nominee

Strange choices maes other than North. Sivivatu? Where did he come from other than Fiji?!

Savea has the best strike rate but he's still young and has much to learn. I'd give you North but Folau has played a little over two tests and is just too raw at union to be called world class. Injury and form have decimated the talent stocks in this position.

I'd say Habana, North and a number of players could take the third slot but they'd all have question marks over them.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I wouldn't say Gray's short FES. He looks like a big unit to me. Hogg looks pretty tall if you stand him next to Halfpenny.

I'd say your back row players have the best chance of calling themselves world class. Unfortunately they have an annoying tendency to get injured.

I disagree. Brown, Rennie and Beattie are very good players, all comfortable at international level rugby, but are not world class players.

We're talking players like McCaw, Read, Picamoles, Pocock, Lobbe, Dusatoir and Juan Smith. I rate our backrow highly, but they are not "world class" players.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Strange choices maes other than North. Sivivatu? Where did he come from other than Fiji?!

Savea has the best strike rate but he's still young and has much to learn. I'd give you North but Folau has played a little over two tests and is just too raw at union to be called world class. Injury and form have decimated the talent stocks in this position.

I'd say Habana, North and a number of players could take the third slot but they'd all have question marks over them.

Sivivatu was the best winger in the HEC last year, absolute magic whenever he got the ball.

I was throwing you crumbs of comfort and you rightly spurn them. You were right the first time.

The frustrating thing with Scotland is that combinations and tactics are not consistent enough. One day they look promising and the next utter pish. Maybe that's a lack of world class players or maybe that's a lack of time together and a clear vision of how they want to play.

You cannot be considered world class when you play only club rugby. No matter how good you look or how good you were at test level. Test rugby is the pinnacle. The Chiefs won the Super title again but looking at the AB squad you'd think they were bottom feeders this year like the Highlanders were.

I can't believe no one has mentioned George Marvin yet.

I don't think you can call a player world class unless he's playing Int rugby personally.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think you can call a player world class unless he's playing Int rugby personally.

I think that's broadly true, although for players from non-6 Nations/Rugby Championship countries, it may well be that their abilities are principally judged on the basis of their club performances, rather than international games (where they may struggle to shine due to the side they play for).

Nagwenya at Biarritz/USA is in my opinion a world class winger, and although he's played some good stuff for the USA, it's principally his exploits in a Biarritz jersey that influence me.

Just an example, and I'm sure that there are better ones. I do agree in principle though, it's only by performing strongly at the highest level (international rugby) that you can demonstrate "world class" ability, albeit with one or two exceptions.

I wouldn't say Ngwenga was anywhere near world class Exiled, he's bloody fast but has numerous flaws to his game which get targeted often even at club level.

I see your point though, I always liked Nalaga at ASM, would love to see him playing for one of the top nations.

Yeh, I was trying to pick out those "imagine if they played for the All Blacks" type of players. Nalaga is a good call. Parisse is another obvious one.

I don't think anyone would dispute that he's a world class player, but he's often stuck with his finger in the dam with Italy, rather than working with front foot ball.

I'd argue that Nick Evans is a world class player. Possibly a better example.

World class number eights?

Parisse
Read
Picamoles

I'd agree with that.

Lobbe at Argentina is excellent, but I prefer him at 6.

Bismarck du Plessis
Adriaan Strauss
Eben Etzebeth
Willem Alberts
Jean de Villiers
Bryan Habana

SA have 2 cracking hookers, I'd possibly have BdP and Strauss at 1 and 2.

Not so sure on JdV though, never really rated him.

I sympathise with those players FES who have a better chance of showcasing their talents than with their national teams. For a while Nick Evans was sadly missed. But he chose his path and he's put himself in a position where he can't be considered world class.

But this thread is rightly called World Class players in your national team. Once we get into the debate what would happen if Parisse played for NZ or Nagwenya played for Scotland we're dealing with pure hypothesis.

We're narrowing this list down to see the best. If your country's poop and you don't get to perform like you do for your club, then that's just bad luck. World class players have to be the best at test level with no exceptions.

15 Halfpenny, Dagg, Beale.
14. Jane, Bowe, (yes I'm struggling here so I've picked injured players), Cuthbert
11. Habana, North, Savea
13. C Smith, AAC, Tuilagi
12. Fofana, Nonu, Roberts
10. Carter
9. Genia

The backs are a nightmare and I'm not happy with a few of those selections and can't think of any who qualify as well at 10 or 9. I don't want to even think about the forwards.

Kia if you believe Heyneke Meyer, then Fourie du Preez is still world class, hence his selection for the springboks.  

Biltong wrote:Kia if you believe Heyneke Meyer, then Fourie du Preez is still world class, hence his selection for the springboks.  

It will be interesting to see how he goes. I always thought he was a little over rated. Box kick, box kick, box kick.

A position that has been SA's stronghold forever and Meyer is really forced into a bind. Hougaard is a utility player but his pass is not that of a halfback. Take a punt on a young player or go with the tried and tested like he probably will at 10 with Morné Steyn.

Hey Bill

We've been eagerly awaiting your input regarding SAs finest...!

Biltong wrote:Bismarck du Plessis
Adriaan Strauss
Eben Etzebeth
Willem Alberts
Jean de Villiers
Bryan Habana

You dont rate Ruan Piennar. Id put him in the top three after Genia. For me its:

Genia
Piennar
Parra
Smith
then no one else.

Rory Kockott could also be mentionned at 9 although he doesnt play international rugby...yet (he will french qualified in 2 years time if Meyer keeps on ignoring him).

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I sympathise with those players FES who have a better chance of showcasing their talents than with their national teams. For a while Nick Evans was sadly missed. But he chose his path and he's put himself in a position where he can't be considered world class.

But this thread is rightly called World Class players in your national team. Once we get into the debate what would happen if Parisse played for NZ or Nagwenya played for Scotland we're dealing with pure hypothesis.

We're narrowing this list down to see the best. If your country's poop and you don't get to perform like you do for your club, then that's just bad luck. World class players have to be the best at test level with no exceptions.

15 Halfpenny, Dagg, Beale.
14. Jane, Bowe, (yes I'm struggling here so I've picked injured players), Cuthbert
11. Habana, North, Savea
13. C Smith, AAC, Tuilagi
12. Fofana, Nonu, Roberts
10. Carter
9. Genia

The backs are a nightmare and I'm not happy with a few of those selections and can't think of any who qualify as well at 10 or 9. I don't want to even think about the forwards.

I would say

Smith
JdV
JD2

AAC didnt really show up well in the recent tests and Tuilagi was behind Davies.

Have to agree with Maesteg, no way AAc is better than J de Villiers.

I don't think Parra is a world class scrum half anymore. Genia is head and shoulders number one in my view, with Aaron Smith (based on NZ form last season - haven't watched Super Rugby this summer) a distant runner up.

Pienaar blows hot and cold. It's been a while since I've seen him play well for South Africa at 9.

Players like Phillips and Youngs can be superb on their day, but due to a lack of consistency I think they fall short of "world class".

Watch this space for Niko Matawalu at Glasgow. His passing is good, but on the break he really is superb. A couple of seasons of fine tuning, particularly his kicking game which is pretty much non-existant, and he could make it into the very top bracket.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think Parra is a world class scrum half anymore. Genia is head and shoulders number one in my view, with Aaron Smith (based on NZ form last season - haven't watched Super Rugby this summer) a distant runner up.

Pienaar blows hot and cold. It's been a while since I've seen him play well for South Africa at 9.

Players like Phillips and Youngs can be superb on their day, but due to a lack of consistency I think they fall short of "world class".

Watch this space for Niko Matawalu at Glasgow. His passing is good, but on the break he really is superb. A couple of seasons of fine tuning, particularly his kicking game which is pretty much non-existant, and he could make it into the very top bracket.

Hence me not rating him.

I genuinely feel there is currently a lack of world class scrumhalves in the world.

Biltong wrote:Have to agree with Maesteg, no way AAc is better than J de Villiers.

Posted a link further back that demonstrates what a class player he is.

Biltong wrote:Have to agree with Maesteg, no way AAc is better than J de Villiers.

I didn't think you rated De Villiers?

JD2 should be included after his performances in the summer. A bit like Conrad Smith - not immediately obvious why he's so good, but he just keeps turning up in the right places and doing the right things.

Neither in the league of BOD or Umaga in their heydays though. Probably one of the weaker positions in a World XV at the moment.

I agree Biltong, and I have the same opinion on the 10 position too. Genia and Carter are just miles ahead.

Biltong wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think Parra is a world class scrum half anymore. Genia is head and shoulders number one in my view, with Aaron Smith (based on NZ form last season - haven't watched Super Rugby this summer) a distant runner up.

Pienaar blows hot and cold. It's been a while since I've seen him play well for South Africa at 9.

Players like Phillips and Youngs can be superb on their day, but due to a lack of consistency I think they fall short of "world class".

Watch this space for Niko Matawalu at Glasgow. His passing is good, but on the break he really is superb. A couple of seasons of fine tuning, particularly his kicking game which is pretty much non-existant, and he could make it into the very top bracket.

Hence me not rating him.

Young Fijian lad...?

Looks very handy.

Aaron Smith and Wil Genia are definitely up there, I rate Pienaar very highly but more because of the rugby I see him play at Ulster than for the Bok. For Ulster he most definitely shows he is in the top three and a World Class Player.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think Parra is a world class scrum half anymore. Genia is head and shoulders number one in my view, with Aaron Smith (based on NZ form last season - haven't watched Super Rugby this summer) a distant runner up.

Pienaar blows hot and cold. It's been a while since I've seen him play well for South Africa at 9.

Players like Phillips and Youngs can be superb on their day, but due to a lack of consistency I think they fall short of "world class".

Watch this space for Niko Matawalu at Glasgow. His passing is good, but on the break he really is superb. A couple of seasons of fine tuning, particularly his kicking game which is pretty much non-existant, and he could make it into the very top bracket.

Niko Matawalu is awesome alright. Havent seen him play international rugby though so couldnt really include him.

Agree Disney, there are a lot of young potential players at 9 and 10 in Super Rugby this year, but none yet established as being world class.

Halfback.
White, Smith, Parinira (spelling), Piet v Zyl etc.

Flyhalf
Goosen, Cruden etc.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think Parra is a world class scrum half anymore. Genia is head and shoulders number one in my view, with Aaron Smith (based on NZ form last season - haven't watched Super Rugby this summer) a distant runner up.

Pienaar blows hot and cold. It's been a while since I've seen him play well for South Africa at 9.

Players like Phillips and Youngs can be superb on their day, but due to a lack of consistency I think they fall short of "world class".

Watch this space for Niko Matawalu at Glasgow. His passing is good, but on the break he really is superb. A couple of seasons of fine tuning, particularly his kicking game which is pretty much non-existant, and he could make it into the very top bracket.

Niko Matawalu is awesome alright. Havent seen him play international rugby though so couldnt really include him.

Me niether but he should be on the radar.

I guess another nominee well worth proposing at Scrumhalf is Khan Fotuali’i...! Superb for Samoa and Ospreys

I'll give you that maesteg.  

AAC has been a stalwart for Australia since the departure of Mortlock but maybe he's experiencing a dip in form and LLF looks to be composed at test level and looks a good bet for world class with a couple of seasons under his belt.

JDV has regained some Super form for sure. Let's see how he does in the RC. Not yet ready to give him back the world class sache after his RC last year where he seemed bereft of ideas on attack.

In the case of second row is being in the top six sufficient if there are two starting spots? If so I would say Richie Gray would definitely be in it, he is the best ball carrying second row in the world undoubtedly but he always seems to come to the end of a ruck and lean on it or fall over. Hogg has the ability to be the best in the world in his position but isn't there yet, and Ross Rennie and Ross Ford were amongst the best in the world before they got injured and lost form and it remains to be seen if they can reach that level again.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'll give you that maesteg.  

AAC has been a stalwart for Australia since the departure of Mortlock but maybe he's experiencing a dip in form and LLF looks to be composed at test level and looks a good bet for world class with a couple of seasons under his belt.

JDV has regained some Super form for sure. Let's see how he does in the RC. Not yet ready to give him back the world class sache after his RC last year where he seemed bereft of ideas on attack.

AAC has always been an integral player but not World class bracket for me. Jonathan Davies has shown that class this season for Wales and the Lions. I agree on JdV who had an average showing in the RWC, but recent form for Boks and in the SVX has tee stablished my admiration.

No doubt the Irish supporters will be telling us Sexton should be on the list but let's see how Schmidt has him playing. He was a mixed bag for the Lions and he only showed the odd glimpse like he did against Wales this year of what he's capable at club level.

Even Genia has been in mixed form recently and you could argue that he's been shut down so effectively he's in danger of losing his world class status. He did that amazing run in the first test to set up Folau which showed us what he's capable of and then he was largely anonymous thereafter with poor kicking and handling letting him down.

123456789 wrote:In the case of second row is being in the top six sufficient if there are two starting spots? If so I would say Richie Gray would definitely be in it, he is the best ball carrying second row in the world undoubtedly  but he always seems to come to the end of a ruck and lean on it or fall over. Hogg has the ability to be the best in the world in his position but isn't there yet, and Ross Rennie and Ross Ford were amongst the best in the world before they got injured and lost form and it remains to be seen if they can reach that level again.

Gray certainly shows the potential but was selected behind POC, AWJ and Geoff Parling for the Lions. I am sure his time will come, he has the talent, I am a huge fan. But for me he is on the periphery of top NH players and when you add lads like Etzebeth and Whitlock to the equation he drops a bit further down my personal list.