How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

Jenkins has always been a poor to average scrummager, I'm unsure how a prop who's propping work is just acceptable can be mentioned in the same breath as Du Randt, Leonard etc.

I prefer my props to be big scrummagers first, anything past that is a bonus.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yeh, anyone who has already declared Alex Corbisiero a "world class" player, and yet doesn't rate Gethin Jenkins in his prime a "world class" loosehead is suffering from poor judgement in my opinion.

Whilst always solid in the scrum, I struggle to think of a better prop in the loose, and he has sustained form at the top of the game for a decade, making three Lions tours and starting in 5 Lions Test matches.

Quite so...! Gethin Jenkins has had superb career and has been lauded highly for his endeavours by many respected pundits. as first choice loosehead for two lions tours it shows how highly Britain and Irelands top coaches regard him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jenkins has always been a poor to average scrummager, I'm unsure how a prop who's propping work is just acceptable can be mentioned in the same breath as Du Randt, Leonard etc.

I prefer my props to be big scrummagers first, anything past that is a bonus.

Jenkins is a poor scrummager and yet Leonard is a big scrummager??

Both are/were very similar scrummagers. Neither destructive, but both technically strong and rarely bettered in the scrum.

Du Randt on the other hand. Get your body position wrong against Os Du Randt, and you were in a whole world of trouble.

Leonard was a much stronger scrummager than Jenkins. I've always though Jenkins just got by at Int level tbh, I've seen him struggle on numerous occasions. That's not the sign of all time great prop imo

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Leonard was a much stronger scrummager than Jenkins. I've always though Jenkins just got by at Int level tbh, I've seen him struggle on numerous occasions. That's not the sign of all time great prop imo

That said you must also have seen him flourish as well...? He took Dan Cole to pieces in the six nations.

That was more to do with Jones hammering our Loosehead side, I actually thought Cole done well considering.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That was more to do with Jones hammering our Loosehead side, I actually thought Cole done well considering.

Cole gave away two penalties at the scrum, both kicked by Halfpenny that came from pressure on Cole at the scrum. Now if Cole is considered in the top three of THs in world rugby then Jenkins is not a poor scrummager.

Front row is a unit, if your LH is getting absolutely smashed, which ours was(think it was Marler??) then your TH has to try and anchor his side.

The Jenkins/Cole battle was pretty even imo despite our LH side suffering so badly.

Look at the state of the Wales scrum as soon as Jones isn't playing, he's a dream for a LH.

Jenkins gets battered quite regularly, I don't rate him as a scrummager at all.

Cole's form has dropped this season. Marler didn't adapt well to the refereeing of the scrum by Walsh and Jones' tricks at all. Jenkins is an adequate scrummager and a very good player but World Class he has never been

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jenkins gets battered quite regularly, I don't rate him as a scrummager at all.

When?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Cole's form has dropped this season. Marler didn't adapt well to the refereeing of the scrum by Walsh and Jones' tricks at all. Jenkins is an adequate scrummager and a very good player  but World Class he has never been

Totally agree CJ

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jenkins gets battered quite regularly, I don't rate him as a scrummager at all.

When?

All the time, when he doesn't have dominant TH to play off.

Remember catching a Rabo game season before last and Jenkins was destroyed (Dragons or Scarlets), I didn't even recognise the TH

ChequeredJersey wrote:Cole's form has dropped this season. Marler didn't adapt well to the refereeing of the scrum by Walsh and Jones' tricks at all. Jenkins is an adequate scrummager and a very good player  but World Class he has never been

He has certainly been the best in the home nations for a number of years. Saying his scrummaging is a weakness is an over exaggeration some posters seem to levy at will.

It works vice versa, Adam Jones is slatted equally for not doing enough beyond the scrum by the same sorts who overly criticise how effective Gethin Jenkins is in all aspects. Considering Jenkins as a luxury player when actually dynamic, intelligent and productive would be more appropriate.

Both Jones and Jenkins have won four six nations championships invariably through Wales having a dominant scrum, that is a pretty sizeable accolade in any props career.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jenkins gets battered quite regularly, I don't rate him as a scrummager at all.

When?

All the time, when he doesn't have dominant TH to play off.

Remember catching a Rabo game season before last and Jenkins was destroyed (Dragons or Scarlets), I didn't even recognise the TH

You'll have to be less vague to be convincing in your argument mate...!

Certainly Jenkins shocked the hell out of Namibia at the World Cup! My god, i've never seen anything like it.

What was/is great about Jenkins was/is his overall balance. He was very proficient in every aspect of the game- scrummaging, handling, support play, rucking, tackling, breakdown.I do feel he's taken a turn the last few seasons, and isn't the force he once was, but he's still very capable. Certainly a few seasons ago I would have definiely had him as one of the top LHs in the world, but to be classed as 'world class' I think you have to be consistent all the way through your career really and unfortunately he's just tailed off.

He's not retired yet BSV...!

This move back to the Blues could well be his indian summer... Injury permitting.

Haha, I know he hasn't retired yet! It well could be his indian summer, and I would like to see it because I think he's a top bloke. Unfortunately, I just can't see it. I would love for him to prove me wrong though.

Jones and Jenkins do compliment each other well. I wouldn't say Jones doesn't do enough work in the loose

far too much emphasis on "top 3" than being genuine world class for my liking. World class is more about ticking all the boxes enroute to becoming a complete player and their performances really do seem a class apart from the other internationa players - you notice their presence and equally their absence. To that end currently playing I can think of McCaw, Carter, SBW, Genia, Horwill, Picamole, Fofana, A.Jones, 1/2p, POC and BOD (albeit a younger version) and that is about it for me. Plenty of quality tough S.A.'s but none that really touch world class and same for England. Corbs still has it all to prove.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Jones and Jenkins do compliment each other well. I wouldn't say Jones doesn't do enough work in the loose

It's something Jones has improved on massively under Gatland. I'd now say his workrate is par for a prop, whilst he's maintained his fearsome scrummaging ability (not just power, but his technique and mastery of the ref at the hit is also top class).

I presume we're not going to debate whether Adam Jones is "world class". He clearly is.

What are people's thoughts on Phil Vickery? I'd have said yes, but if you discount Jenkins because of his scrummaging, then I suppose you discount Vickery as well.

An aside: is 'world class' simply top 3 in your position over a sustained period of time (say, three years), or can it be achieved in a single season? How does one account for the impact of players being in a winning/losing team? Someone like Parisse is a standout for Italy, for example, but is there an unintentional over-egging of all NZ-ers given that they play for, historically, the 'best' team?

Vickery in his prime was world class, but then injuries really took it's toll. In the latter stages of his career he was clearly not world class and still being picked on reputation and also force of personality through which he still pushed himself beyond his natural capabilities. At his best he was awesome which was around 2003 time when he used to partake in offensive tackles and was a raging bull. Phil's scrummaging was weak during his last few years.

wales606 wrote:Interesting question

Top 3 in their position


1. Cian Healy (IRE) / Alex Corbesiero (ENG) / Tony Woodcock (NZL)

Roncero before he retired.


2. Bismark Du Plessis (SA) (still recovering form after injury) / Kevin Mealamu (NZ) / Stephen Moore (AUS)

Never been a fan of the new French hooker, always been a fan of Moore. Youngs and Hibbard are the best of the NH atm, but the experience Moore and Mealamu take it.


3. Adam Jones (WAL) / Owen Franks (NZ) / Dan Cole (ENG)

Mas an unlucky exclusion


Locks. No order. Paul O'Connell (IRE) / Alun Wyn Jones (WAL) / James Horwill (AUS) / Sam Whitelock (NZL) / Eben Etzebeth (SA) / Patricio Albacete (ARG)

Pretty difficult without Thorn, Bakkies, Matfield, Johnson etc. Mixture of the old experience and young inexperience. No standout at the moment.


6. Thierry Dusatoir (FRA) / Liam Messam (bold claim) (NZL) / Wilhelm Alberts (SA)

Difficult one, Lydiate misses out just. 6/7 players like Robshaw and recently Warburton could come into it actually as there is no real standout blindside with much consistency.


7. Richie McCaw (NZL) / David Pocock (reputation) (AUS) / Sam Warburton (WAL)

Tough again, Pocock and McCaw have the big reputation. Warburton hasn't shown his full potential, but hasn't been bad recently - his Lion's captaincy gives him the nod over Robshaw, SOB, Hooper and Tipuric. (Alberts and Dusatoir used as 6s)


8. Sergio Parisse (ITA) / Louis Picamoles (FRA) / Keiran Read (NZL)

Easiest one so far, not many can complain about this one.


9. Will Genia (AUS) / Ruan Pienaar (SA) / Morgan Parra (FRA)

Genia clearly. Big fan of Pienaar, been fantastic for Ulster. Parra can change a game.


10. Dan 'still the man' Carter (NZL) / Jonathan Sexton (IRE) / Aaron Cruden (NZL)

First two are easy. Two All Blacks shows how weak other countries are in that position


11. George North (WAL) /  Julien Savea (NZL) / Brian Habana (SA)

Folau is heading in the right direction. Habana isn't at his peak, but is still a very class winger. Savea is electric, but still a bit raw.


12. Wesley Fofana (FRA) / Ma Nonu (NZL) / ???

Sonny Bill Williams not competing. No one outstanding after Fofana, Nonu on experience, no clear 3rd.


13. Conrad Smith (NZL) / Jonathan Davies (WAL) / Brian O'Driscoll (IRE)

Big fan of JD2 and he proved a lot with the Lions. O'Driscoll on experience over the other options Tuilagi, AAC and Bosch.


14. Vincent Clerc (FRA) / Tommy Bowe (IRE) / JP Pietersen (SA)

Lots of options, hard to narrow down


15. Leigh Halfpenny (WAL) / Israel Dagg (NZL) / Keartley Beale (AUS)

Beale showed glimpses against the Lions, Kearney, Hogg, Foden, Brown, Medard all possibilities.


So,

New Zealand - 13
South Africa - 6
Australia - 6
Wales - 6
England - 2
Ireland - 5
France - 5
Argentina - 1
Italy - 1

Adriaan Strauss is currently keeping Bismarck out fo the Springbok team. Was the best hooker in the Super XV.

hugehandoff wrote:Vickery in his prime was world class, but then injuries really took it's toll. In the latter stages of his career he was clearly not world class and still being picked on reputation and also force of personality through which he still pushed himself beyond his natural capabilities. At his best he was awesome which was around 2003 time when he used to partake in offensive tackles and was a raging bull. Phil's scrummaging was weak during his last few years.

Not sure that's quite true. Vickery was still a decent scrummager as late as 2009, but he was always a pretty clean prop and vulnerable to someone who was better at conning the ref. I think it was more that teams worked out how to get the ref on their side.

Biltong wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Adriaan Strauss is currently keeping Bismarck out fo the Springbok team. Was the best hooker in the Super XV.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if it is because Bismark has yet to full recover form from his injury,

Equally Mealamu is being kept out of the NZ team, and Moore is often second choice for Aus.

It is pretty difficult to decide on a top 3 in the world based on form, reputation and potential,

Tom Youngs, Rory Best, Richard Hibbard, Szarzewski, Kayser and Ghiraldini could all argue for a place at the moment

But over the last few years, Bismark and Mealamu have been on top

With the greatest respect I really don't think Rory Best is even close to the top 3 in the world based on form, reputation and potential.

Form is out, because he's on horrible form.

Potential is out, because he's hardly a spring chicken so I don't think it's reasonable to expect massive improvement or development in his game.

He has a big reputation, most Irish players do, but his throwing has completely disintegrated in the last 6-12 months, so much so that's he's become a liability.

Strauss, Du Plessis, Mealamu, Hibbard, Youngs, Moore, Palota-Nau, Kayser, Szarzewski..... - too many to name. Best is out of the reckoning in terms of "world class".

Why are we spending so much time debating which props are world class? Until we see how the new engagement sequence plays out, we just don't know who is world class. Early signs are that scrums will work quite differently and require different skills and endurance-based strength rather than raw power.

I expect to see a very different view of the top scrummagers by the end of the season.

Oh, and judging scrummaging ability on the basis of a game refereed by Steve Walsh is like evaluating classical music on the opinions of Simon Cowell.

That's very true. It's going to be really interesting to see which props manage to adapt.

Knowing the SRU they probably aren't even aware the rules are changing.....

"Adriaan Strauss is currently keeping Bismarck out fo the Springbok team."

Completely agree Biltong.

Apart from doing a great job at scrum time AS is the best I've seen all season for making ground and superb offloading too.

Needs to cement his place in the SA team, but top of the pile for me atm.

For what it's worth I only hsve 5 players currently playing (and who currently merit the term) who I consider world class since the game went pro.

3 A Jones
5. P O'Connell
7 R McCaw
9 W Genia
10 D Carter

Parisse?
Dusautoir?
Peter O'Mahony?

15

22

Hmm

George North, Adam Jones, Leigh Halfpenny, would be in.

Possibly also, Gethin Jenkins, Jonathan Davies, and Mike Phillips if on form.

Truth is Genia aside there aren't too many class scrum halves around so Phillips probably squeezes into the top 3.

"Truth is Genia aside there aren't too many class scrum halves around so Phillips probably squeezes into the top 3."

Phillips would be lucky to be top 10, he basics are horrendous

Hound of Harrow wrote:"Adriaan Strauss is currently keeping Bismarck out fo the Springbok team."

Completely agree Biltong.

Apart from doing a great job at scrum time AS is the best I've seen all season for making ground and superb offloading too.

Needs to cement his place in the SA team, but top of the pile for me atm.

For what it's worth I only hsve 5 players currently playing (and who currently merit the term) who I consider world class since the game went pro.

3 A Jones
5. P O'Connell
7 R McCaw
9 W Genia
10 D Carter

I like your exacting standards Hound but that's a paltry list Hound. Conrad Smith for example wouldn't be amiss from that group.

O'connell 

Little tough there Hound, I'd throw in a few more like Bakkies, Dusatoir, Habana, Smith, Nonu who are legends and still doing it.

Bakkies is doing it like Thorn is doing it. Like not really at international level.

I'd be loathed to call a player with less than 10 caps world class, because those caps could have been got in just oe season and he could easily be a flash in the pan.

If we look at the EPS, the players that qualify for consideration would be:

Hartley (47), Cole (40), Corbisiero (18), Marler (12), Wilson (28), Launchbury (11), Lawes (22), Parling (17), Croft (38), Robshaw (17), Wood (20), Morgan (12), Care (41), Youngs (33), Farrell (16), Flood (57), Barritt (16), Tuilagi (21), Ashton (34), Brown (18), Foden (32), Goode (11).

From that list, I'd say Cole, Corbs, Launchbury, Parling, Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Youngs, Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi and Foden could all be considered first choice for England. I know I've picked four back row players, but there's little between them.

From that list, I'd say Launchbury, Morgan and Farrell aren't far enough into their careers, especially at International level, to be called world class, and all have a bit more to prove before they merit discussion, but they could all get there.

I'd then remove Parling and Barritt, who I see as solid club pros who have done a good job for England at International level, but to my mind just don't offer enough to be considered world class, even if they may be the best option for England.

That leaves Cole, Corbisiero, Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Youngs, Tuilagi and Foden.

Struggling to think of three tight head props better than Cole. Franks and Jones would be right up there, but I'd have Cole higher than Mas, Castro and any other tight head.

Same with Corbisiero, I'd rate him the best scrummaging loose head in the Northern Hemisphere (certainly under old laws) and probably the best all round loose head in the NH too. I certainly can't think of three better looseheads.

Looking at flankers (I'll take Croft, Robshaw and Wood all at once), there are so many good flankers and they all have something slightly different it depends what you're looking for in a flanker really. For me McCaw and Alberts are right near the top of the pile, with Pocock when he's fit. After that it becomes a matter of opinion really. Wood offers most from an England perspective for me and a case could be made for him, but it's not clear cut. One thing is for certain though, Wood and Robshaw should both have more England caps by now, and if they had then maybe they would have stronger cases.

At scrum half, Genia is so far ahead of anyone else at the moment it's unreal. After him we've got Pienaar, Smith, Parra, Phillips, Murray and Fotuali'i who would all be worth consideration along with Youngs. I think when he's firing Youngs is probably the second best scrum half in the world after Genia, but in too many of his performances he's not quite got to that level. Still only 23 though, so with a couple of good years now he could really establish himself as a world class scrum half.

I really like Tuilagi, but is he at the level of Conrad Smith or O'Driscoll at his best? Probably not. I'd say he was unlucky with injury in the recent Lions tour and would put him on a par with players like Davies and Ashley-Cooper, but that's behind Conrad Smith. O'Driscoll was obviously World Class in his prime, but as he is now I would probably put him in the same bracket as Davies, Ashley-Cooper and Tuilagi. I'd say like Youngs it may be a bit early to put Manu in the world class category, but also like Youngs, Tuilagi is still young (22) and a couple of big seasons now could easily see him muscle his way into that category.

Foden has had a poor season last year, but has started to approach his best again. At his best I think he's the best attacking full-back in the Northern Hemisphere. All-round I'd put Halfpenny ahead of him, but I'd say he's better than Kearney and there's a way for Hogg to go before he can be classed ahead of a proven performer like Foden, talented though he is. From the Southern Hemisphere teams, I rate Dagg highly and Australia have some good options, even if they keep changing their mind as to who to play there. If Foden hadn't had an indiffernet season I'd definitely have him in that top three with Dagg and Halfpenny. As it is, he joins a host of other England players in the debatable column.

So for me, Corbisiero and Cole definitely make it into a top 3. Wood, Youngs, Tuilagi and Foden arguably make it, but for one reason or another could do with 1 or 2 strong seasons to really hammer their points home.

For a player to be undeniably World Class, for me they have to have performed consistently over a number of years, and there aren't that many England players who have had a number of years of consistent International rugby, let alone playing at a consistently high level. However I'd be disappointed if you asked me this question in 5 years and I couldn't say 5-6 England players who were genuinely World Class with the talent we have coming through.

Robbo

I think you are correct that Cole and Corbisiero are the best England candidates...!

Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

For the Boks, I'd say there're some easy definites:

Bismarck, Adriaan Strauss and Brian Habana.

Then there are some who have shown, in isolated performances, that they can be sublime, but would have to be more consistently excellent to be considered truly world-class:

JP Pietersen, Jannie Du Plessis, The Beast, Willem Alberts

Thirdly, there are some, who look promising, but haven't had enough test-time to prove that they are genuinely world-class and not just a flash in the pan:

Etzebeth, Willie Le Roux, JJ Engelbrecht

Finally, there are some that we thought we 'has-beens' but may be having a late spurt of greatness:

Jean De Villiers, Fourie Du Preez...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

Agreed & for me Wales have 2 Adam Jones & Halfpenny. Ireland 1 Sexton that's it for the Home Nations.

O Connell is World Class even if not in the top three.

It's the old A Level debate. Should 70 be the mark for an A or the top 10%. Both ways of deciding are wrong.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

Agreed & for me Wales have 2 Adam Jones & Halfpenny. Ireland 1 Sexton that's it for the Home Nations.

If you were discussing the best in current world rug y in their position then yes Halfpenny and Jones are. But this thread categorised top three and Wales certainly have more.

I don't think Tuilagi has as good case as Sgt Pooley is making out, Smith, Davies, Cooper, De Villiers and Englebrecht are all ahead of him.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

Agreed & for me Wales have 2 Adam Jones & Halfpenny. Ireland 1 Sexton that's it for the Home Nations.

If you were discussing the best in current world rug y in their position then yes Halfpenny and Jones are. But this thread categorised top three and Wales certainly have more.

I don't think Tuilagi has as good case as Sgt Pooley is making out, Smith, Davies, Cooper, De Villiers and Englebrecht are all ahead of him.

Jones would be best for only one half of rugby, 1/2p is in the top 3 that's it IMO. It's all about opinions & national bias generally takes over in threads like this.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

Agreed & for me Wales have 2 Adam Jones & Halfpenny. Ireland 1 Sexton that's it for the Home Nations.

If you were discussing the best in current world rug y in their position then yes Halfpenny and Jones are. But this thread categorised top three and Wales certainly have more.

I don't think Tuilagi has as good case as Sgt Pooley is making out, Smith, Davies, Cooper, De Villiers and Englebrecht are all ahead of him.

Jones would be best for only one half of rugby, 1/2p is in the top 3 that's it IMO. It's all about opinions & national bias generally takes over in threads like this.

Trev,

If you honestly persistently disregard other people's opinions because you consider them influenced by "national bias", why do you reply to them...?

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi certainly has a good case to be top 3, not many better

Agreed & for me Wales have 2 Adam Jones & Halfpenny. Ireland 1 Sexton that's it for the Home Nations.

If you were discussing the best in current world rug y in their position then yes Halfpenny and Jones are. But this thread categorised top three and Wales certainly have more.

I don't think Tuilagi has as good case as Sgt Pooley is making out, Smith, Davies, Cooper, De Villiers and Englebrecht are all ahead of him.

Jones would be best for only one half of rugby, 1/2p is in the top 3 that's it IMO. It's all about opinions & national bias generally takes over in threads like this.

Trev,

If you honestly persistently disregard other people's opinions because you consider them influenced by "national bias", why do you reply to them...?

Maes,
Clearly I am not disregarding people's opinions if I reply to them. I am just stating a fact that exists, that of national bias in threads such as these.

There is one heck of a lot of national bias on this thread.

That's true of the forum in general though I guess.

In my opinion

Cyril wrote:There is one heck of a lot of national bias on this thread.

That's true of the forum in general though I guess.

In my opinion