Springbok team for Argentina this weekend.

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15 Willie le Roux GWK Griquas 3
14 Bjorn Basson Vodacom Blue Bulls 9
13 JJ Engelbrecht Vodacom Blue Bulls 4
12 Jean de Villiers(c) DHL Western Province 87
11 Bryan Habana Toulon, France 86
10 Morné Steyn Stade Francais, France 45
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N.Ireland 66
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 7
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 21
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 19
5 Juandré Kruger Racing Metro, France 11
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 14
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 45
2 Adriaan Strauss Toyota FS Cheetahs 24
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 44

Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis The Sharks 48
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 40
18 Coenie Oosthuizen Toyota FS Cheetahs 4
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 26
20 Siya Kolisi DHL Western Province 2
21 Fourie du Preez Suntory Sungoliath, Japan 62
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 23
23 Jan Serfontein Vodacom Blue Bulls 3

I think it is a good squad, but I would have preferred to see, Lambie in place of Morne Steyn (for the future), Van Zyl or Pretorius in place of Pienaar (For the future).

Biltong wrote:Disagree with that Guns.

Pienaar for me was the weakest player on the pitch, it only became evident when Fourie du Preez went on. Pienaar is pedantic and his service is slow.

As for the rest of the overseas players, I don't want them and the reason is simple.

If you have a club that dictates when you may or may not play for you country, then you are unreliable and messes with continuity of selections.

Fourie du Preez may now not travel with SA, so for the next three away tests he may not play.

Then another thing, if you have a multi million Rand contract overseas, and it is in jeopardy if you get injured, why would you give your all for your team?

The fact is you go overseas to make money, and you are not going to out that in danger.

I am a glass full person, there are no half measures.

It signifies commitment and hunger.

Well I understand why you wouldnt want overseas players but even Meyer thought Piennar had his best ever game for the Boks in a while. In any case Du Preez also plays rugby in the NH so my point remains the same.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:Disagree with that Guns.

Pienaar for me was the weakest player on the pitch, it only became evident when Fourie du Preez went on. Pienaar is pedantic and his service is slow.

As for the rest of the overseas players, I don't want them and the reason is simple.

If you have a club that dictates when you may or may not play for you country, then you are unreliable and messes with continuity of selections.

Fourie du Preez may now not travel with SA, so for the next three away tests he may not play.

Then another thing, if you have a multi million Rand contract overseas, and it is in jeopardy if you get injured, why would you give your all for your team?

The fact is you go overseas to make money, and you are not going to out that in danger.

I am a glass full person, there are no half measures.

It signifies commitment and hunger.

Well I understand why you wouldnt want overseas players but even Meyer thought Piennar had his best ever game for the Boks in a while. In any case Du Preez also plays rugby in the NH so my point remains the same.

Well Meyer says a lot of things that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, he said last year we will improve and get smarter and I have not seen any evidence of that yet.

Piet van Zyl is now on tour for the away leg, hopefully he gets his shot. And yes, my point still remains, why bleed for your country if you have a contract worth three times more.

There are plenty of players who, regardless of how much they are paid at club level, still put their bodies on the line for their nation.

I think it's a bit unfair to say that a well-paid player will not do his best or will just be trying to avoid injury when he plays for his national side.

Cyril wrote:There are plenty of players who, regardless of how much they are paid at club level, still put their bodies on the line for their nation.

I think it's a bit unfair to say that a well-paid player will not do his best or will just be trying to avoid injury when he plays for his national side.

It may be unfair Cyril, but it is just as unfair not to allow local players an opportunity.

what makes it worse for us is that since Jake white we have not had a coach who is exposing enough Youngsters, they want to hold onto players for too long.

I had this argument with a guy on another site the other day, arguing with me that PDV have built a squad whilst he was the coach.

But when you look at the players he "exposed" he never built anything with them, he picked players for a test or two , only to discard them when his senior players came back from injury.

Here is a list of the players he supposedly built experience around, when you look at the number of caps then you quickly realise he wasted his time, and even more so, didn't build unless injuries enforced him to do so.

M Steyn 34
T Mtawarira 32
A Bekker 24
HW Brussow 20
R Kankowski 18
GG Aplon 16
F Hougaard 15
Z Kirchner 14
CA Jantjes 13
W Olivier 13
BV Mujati 12
P Lambie 11
PR van der Merwe 11
JL de Jongh 10
LFP Louw 10
WS Alberts 9
BJ Botha 9
OM Ndungane 9
JA Strauss 9
BA Basson 6
DJ Potgieter 6
GJ Stegmann 6
JC van Niekerk 6
JR Deysel 4
AJ Hargreaves 4
LN Mvovo 4
JL Nokwe 4
SB Brits 3
AF Johnson 3
PD Carstens 2
MD Greyling 2
W Kruger 2
G Mostert 2
GJ Muller 2
KR Daniel 1
WH du Preez 1
C McLeod 1
BG Maku 1

Haven't seen FDP so I can't comment on how good he was but Pienaars service was anything but slow. When the ball needed to be moved he got it out.

I don't think you are watching Pienaar with an open mind Bil. I wouldn't be sad to see VanZyl or another get a shot over Pienaar from an Ulster perspective though or indeed from wanting to see SA develop more options. He is 30 odd so seeing a youngster get gametime could be important while you have the likes of Steyn and JDV outside. Bringing through a youngster through when Goosen/lambie, serfontein and engelbrecht are still pretty raw would be difficult

Ulsterman, Ruan Pienaar has always been one of my favourite players, His dad Gysie Pienaar played a few tests for the Boks in the isolation era.

I liked ruan more at ten than at nine. I think I am being very objective when it comes to him.

I just think people especially from Ireland (who understandably has grown to have a great affinity for him)is overestimating his value.

Gysie played pre-isolation Biltong, '80 Lions & 81' All Blacks, was quite a fan of his. Agree with you about FDP v Ruan Pienaar though, FDP was far more incisive and seems always to know exactly what he wants to do whereas Pienaar takes forever to weigh up the options followed by a laboured pass.

Shows you how time muddles our memories, I remember the Cavalier tour in which Gysie and Jaco Reinach played.

Jaco at the time was the record holder of the SA 400 meters.

Gysie was a very attacking fullback, how I miss those days.

Pienaar is like marmite in SA though which was a contributory factor to him moving. I'm not saying he was as good on Saturday as FDP or indeed is as good as FDP who was the worlds best 9 (and would still be up there with Genia if he had the mind) but he was good and quick from what I watched.

I would still agree there needs to be a young 9 given a run (or a 10). I have never been convinced by Hougaard at 9.

I was very impressed with the speed of FDP's pass when he came on - I haven't seen such a fast, accurate pass for years.

FDP looked really good when he came on, made good decisions, threw nice passes.

Just goes to show you what he left in SA. I suppose he had done it all already but he would still be up there IMO. His speed of thought was always exceptional aswell

Hookers and 9s SA just can't stop producing

Yeah we have the odd lock or two as well and a few backrowers.  

Yes but the rate at which you churn out the others. Smit retires and you have Bismarck. He isn't close to retiring and now you have Strauss ffs

Biltong wrote:Yeah we have the odd lock or two as well and a few backrowers.  

You could use a few flyhalves and centres though.

Biltong wrote: And yes, my point still remains, why bleed for your country if you have a contract worth three times more.

Because you want to? Pienaars main reason for leaving South Africa was unhappiness at being messed around positionally in the Sharks and general discontent with how his career was developing at Super Rugby level. It wasn't so much to do with money as it was to do with the fact he felt his chances of being scrum-half for SA were being messed around by him not being given a run in his best position, to the extent he felt his chances of being starting scrum-half for the Boks would be better if he was playing in Europe where he wanted to play than in a less favoured position in South Africa.

Last I checked he is now finally achieving his ambition of playing in his favourite position for the Boks after leaving South Africa for Europe so it seems he was right! It was always about scrum-half for him, why else would he have turned down so many more lucrative offers to go to France and play 10. If it was about the money he would be playing 10 in France and not on the international radar instead of voluntarily playing for less money for a smaller team and going without a proper off-season break so he can play scrum-half for South Africa.

Sometimes it frustrates me that Pienaar is unavailable for us due to international duty, but the reason he is able to have such a good relationship with Ulster is that unlike big clubs from France they fully support his commitment to playing for the Springboks and have done since day one. If Ulster didn't support his right to play in his best position and make himself available for all full internationals he probably wouldn't have signed for us. Of course now he's so settled over here, if he had to choose I'm not sure what he would choose. He's a man who has put his family first and foremost and they are very happy in Northern Ireland. He has agreed another contract extension with Ulster in principle but it needs to be rubber-stamped by the IRFU, but Ulster have supported his right to play international rugby and he has shown great commitment to the Bok jersey so maybe you shouldn't generalise.

We have, but they aren't getting a chance.

Goosen is injured, Lambie did not have a great season with the Sharks, Catrakilis is very good, Pollard is on the horizon, then there is Riaan Smit from the Cheetahs.

Midfield we have Jan Serfontein, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, all on the fringes but unless Meyer gives them a chance we won't see them.

That said, given how weak Argentina are, I didn't see the point of having Pienaar and Du Preez in the team. For the All Blacks, absolutely. Pick the two best players regardless of age. But against a weak opponent there is a good chance to blood a new player.

Notch wrote:

Biltong wrote: And yes, my point still remains, why bleed for your country if you have a contract worth three times more.

Because you want to? Pienaars main reason for leaving South Africa was unhappiness at being messed around positionally in the Sharks and general discontent with how his career was developing at Super Rugby level. It wasn't so much to do with money as it was to do with the fact he felt his chances of being scrum-half for SA were being messed around by him not being given a run in his best position, to the extent he felt his chances of being starting scrum-half for the Boks would be better if he was playing in Europe where he wanted to play than in a less favoured position in South Africa.

Last I checked he is now finally achieving his ambition of playing in his favourite position for the Boks after leaving South Africa for Europe so it seems he was right! It was always about scrum-half for him, why else would he have turned down so many more lucrative offers to go to France and play 10. If it was about the money he would be playing 10 in France and not on the international radar instead of voluntarily playing for less money for a smaller team and going without a proper off-season break so he can play scrum-half for South Africa.

Sometimes it frustrates me that Pienaar is unavailable for us due to international duty, but the reason he is able to have such a good relationship with Ulster is that unlike big clubs from France they fully support his commitment to playing for the Springboks and have done since day one. If Ulster didn't support his right to play in his best position and make himself available for all full internationals he probably wouldn't have signed for us. Of course now he's so settled over here, if he had to choose I'm not sure what he would choose. He's a man who has put his family first and foremost and they are very happy in Northern Ireland. He has agreed another contract extension with Ulster in principle but it needs to be rubber-stamped by the IRFU, but Ulster have supported his right to play international rugby and he has shown great commitment to the Bok jersey so maybe you shouldn't generalise.

Yet he got his chance at 9 when fourie du Preez became unavailable, if Fourie du Preez is back then the same thing will happen all over again.

The fact that he got chance to play 10 was because we did not have Lambie and Goosen as back up, at least he got to play for SA then.

He has always been a rare talent, that is why he was even selected out of position.

The fact that he stood behind Fourie du Preez in the que, was purely because Fourie du Preez at the time was considered the best scrum half in the world.

He is not the first player that has to stand in line behind a better player.

As for the generalisation. you have to make a blanket decision, you cannot make exceptions.

Notch wrote:That said, given how weak Argentina are, I didn't see the point of having Pienaar and Du Preez in the team. For the All Blacks, absolutely. Pick the two best players regardless of age. But against a weak opponent there is a good chance to blood a new player.

That is why I was very irritated by the selection of fourie du Preez and Pienaar, we have two half backs at the cheetahs that were simply superb this super XV.

So now Meyer picks Van Zyl to go on the tour to what. blood him against New Zealand?

Makes no sense when you have two games against argentina first.

He could test him there and see how it went.

Meyer's decision sometimes make no sense to me.

Biltong wrote:We have, but they aren't getting a chance.

Goosen is injured, Lambie did not have a great season with the Sharks, Catrakilis is very good, Pollard is on the horizon, then there is Riaan Smit from the Cheetahs.

Midfield we have Jan Serfontein, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, all on the fringes but unless Meyer gives them a chance we won't see them.

I haven't seen anyone really step in and made an impact in the same way that some of the SA forwards have done though.

Lambie has had a fair few caps now, and I have not been amazed - slightly more creative than Steyn, but not outstanding in any area (unlike Steyn whose kicking game is excellent)

Goosen is always injured

I have Serfonein and Engelbrecht, and while both look decent, there is nobody set to chance up the SA midfield

DeVilliers and Steyn are solid, but without F.Steyn around, the SA midfield has looked short on ideas for ages.

Biltong wrote:

Notch wrote:That said, given how weak Argentina are, I didn't see the point of having Pienaar and Du Preez in the team. For the All Blacks, absolutely. Pick the two best players regardless of age. But against a weak opponent there is a good chance to blood a new player.

That is why I was very irritated by the selection of fourie du Preez and Pienaar, we have two half backs at the cheetahs that were simply superb this super XV.

So now Meyer picks Van Zyl to go on the tour to what. blood him against New Zealand?

Makes no sense when you have two games against argentina first.

He could test him there and see how it went.

Meyer's decision sometimes make no sense to me.

Hasn't Van Zyl gone to Argentina? Isn't there a chance he will get blooded there?

Tbh Biltong, you can't have it both ways. Players will move if they are behind another player to further their career. Rugby players are ambitious and want to achieve things not wait around for something to happen or someone to retire.

You can't have the kind of depth South Africa (or New Zealand) have and keep all your players in the country. There are only 15 starting places at the end of the day. Someone is always going to lose out and all these guys are competitive and ambitious, so if they have to wait in line they will be willing to go overseas and make something happen for themselves.

In Ireland, CJ Stander and Jared Payne are perfect examples. They're not willing to just play out their careers as also rans who never quite made the grade in their home country.

wales606 wrote:

Biltong wrote:We have, but they aren't getting a chance.

Goosen is injured, Lambie did not have a great season with the Sharks, Catrakilis is very good, Pollard is on the horizon, then there is Riaan Smit from the Cheetahs.

Midfield we have Jan Serfontein, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, all on the fringes but unless Meyer gives them a chance we won't see them.

I haven't seen anyone really step in and made an impact in the same way that some of the SA forwards have done though.

Lambie has had a fair few caps now, and I have not been amazed - slightly more creative than Steyn, but not outstanding in any area (unlike Steyn whose kicking game is excellent)

Goosen is always injured

I have Serfonein and Engelbrecht, and while both look decent, there is nobody set to chance up the SA midfield

DeVilliers and Steyn are solid, but without F.Steyn around, the SA midfield has looked short on ideas for ages.

Short of ideas?

Mate you haven't been watching closely.

frans Steyn is a has been, he made his money at too early an age in France and now has zero motivation left.

Jan Serfontein is being held back because Meyer does not want to let go of Jean de Villiers.

Engelbrecht has more pace than any 13 we have had for as long as I can remember. Paul Jordaan was injured this super Xv, hence him not being seen, he was brilliant last year. Willie le Roux is the most creative back we have had for a decade or more.

Standulstermen wrote:Yes but the rate at which you churn out the others. Smit retires and you have Bismarck. He isn't close to retiring and now you have Strauss ffs

Strauss is really good isnt he. Brute of a man.

Notch wrote:Tbh Biltong, you can't have it both ways. Players will move if they are behind another player to further their career. Rugby players are ambitious and want to achieve things not wait around for something to happen or someone to retire.

You can't have the kind of depth South Africa (or New Zealand) have and keep all your players in the country. There are only 15 starting places at the end of the day. Someone is always going to lose out and all these guys are competitive and ambitious, so if they have to wait in line they will be willing to go overseas and make something happen for themselves.

In Ireland, CJ Stander and Jared Payne are perfect examples. They're not willing to just play out their careers as also rans who never quite made the grade in their home country.

Notch, I am not trying to have it both ways, I am merely suggesting once you leave you are out.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.

For me you are either committed to your country or you are not.

If you go for the money, by all means, thanks for your service, but you best be on your way. The continued selection of these players are blocking the path of others, and that purely because of reputation.

CJ Stander couldn't wait in line?

Hell the bloke is still a kid. How the hell does he expect to be a Springbok immediately in the area where we are blessed with tons of talent?

He took the easy way out, and in my stoic view, good riddance.

It is simple, the Bok jersey is a matter of national pride, either it means enough to you to stay around, or it doesn't. There shouldn't even be a debate about this.

Let me give you an example, Habana is now earning cloe to 600 000 Euros in France, he was earning close to that in SA according to reports. Now in his case I understand why he left, he wants to experience something new, and he is close to the end of his international career.

He served his nation in 86 test match, so to him I say thank you.

Juandre Kruger has played 10 test matches and then decided to move to France for more money. After 10 test matches? It is clear he has little value in the springbok Jersey and more value to the Euro.

Again, good for him, but thanks for coming, best be on your way then.

Let me explain the economy in SA to you. If you earn in the region of 200 000 Euros in SA, you are living the life.

That is on average what these top players in Sa will be earning. Some a lot more.

If you want to buy yourself a 5000 square foot house in SA, inside of a golf estate it will put you back only about 350 000 Euros.

If you want to start a business with you hard earned cash to ensure you have a future after retirement, you need but a few hundred thousand Euro's

The fact is, forget about comparing Rands to Euros or Dollars.


If you play top flight rugby in SA, by the time you reach 32 you will have made more than enough money to have paid your golf estate house off, and enough to start just about any business that will sustain your required standard of living.

I get what you are saying Biltong but you are being a tad unfair....

I mean t'was the almighty himself who sent Pienaar and Muller to Ulster to bring christianity (and trophies) to the people.

Although I'm sure the lord wouldn't send anyone to Sarries or Munster so Stander and co are clearly just greedy.

 

Rodders, I am really happy that Ruan and Johan has found a club that really appreciates them.

The fact is both these players are of high quality, not only as rugby players, but as humans too.

Both of them had to stand in line as there were other players in front of them.

I just have one issue, thanks for your service, but now there are young players being held back.

You made the decision to leave, now do the honourable thing and declare yourself unavailable for national duty.

That is what Jaques Fourie did, and for that I respect him all the more.

Yea Biltong I don't have a problem with that but surely it is the responsibiity of the coach and union not to pick players, rather than the player to declare themselves unavailable?

Well, it doesn't work that way does it?

The player isn't closing the door behind him, and the new coach does not want to take a risk.

So he cops out and takes the easier route.

Fair point but the Union should set the policy so the decision isn't left to the coach.

Actually I thought the SARU had made a statement to this effect recently?

SARU doesn't know their ar$e from their elbows.

Don't know why any player would take themselves out of the running. What I would say is that Pienaar has had little or no break from rugby for 2 years barring any injuries he has picked up. He is clearly devoted to SA.

Devotion can also be construed as selfish in my view.

I just find it much less complicated and better for SA rugby if we allow the younger players the opportunity to represent their country.

We basically find ourselves in the same position that Ruan Found himself in, not getting an opportunity led him to leave, now he is doing the same to the next generation.

Vicious circle, ain't it?

I disagree Bil. If Pienaar was stinking up the joint then maybe but he was good at the weekend and was very good against samoa. I understand maybe that some youngsters have had a good season at the cheetahs but they were also behind vermaak and hougaard so maybe the coach just doesn't rate them.

On a slight tangent there is an article on possibly the greatest SA 9 on the beeb website which is very moving and worth reading.

wales606 wrote:

Biltong wrote:We have, but they aren't getting a chance.

Goosen is injured, Lambie did not have a great season with the Sharks, Catrakilis is very good, Pollard is on the horizon, then there is Riaan Smit from the Cheetahs.

Midfield we have Jan Serfontein, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, all on the fringes but unless Meyer gives them a chance we won't see them.

I haven't seen anyone really step in and made an impact in the same way that some of the SA forwards have done though.

Lambie has had a fair few caps now, and I have not been amazed - slightly more creative than Steyn, but not outstanding in any area (unlike Steyn whose kicking game is excellent)

Goosen is always injured

I have Serfonein and Engelbrecht, and while both look decent, there is nobody set to chance up the SA midfield

DeVilliers and Steyn are solid, but without F.Steyn around, the SA midfield has looked short on ideas for ages.

From where I am standing, they are probably the two weakest (maybe de Villiers is somewhere in the middel) centres in SA at the moment. The only thing counting in their favour is experience, and Jean can orginaze our defense really well. Also Jean had his best game in recent memory against Argentina, but I am still not convinced he should be there. Maybe if he puts in a few more efforts like that against the All Blacks. And Frans just doesn't inspire anything in me. I would much rather have any of the other starting centres from the other franchises.

Standulstermen wrote:I disagree Bil. If Pienaar was stinking up the joint then maybe but he was good at the weekend and was very good against samoa. I understand maybe that some youngsters have had a good season at the cheetahs but they were also behind vermaak and hougaard so maybe the coach just doesn't rate them.

On a slight tangent there is an article on possibly the greatest SA 9 on the beeb website which is very moving and worth reading.

Pienaar isn't stinking up the joint, but you could still clearly see the difference on Saturday - and Pienaar probably had his best game in a Springbok jersey.

The point is, I don't think the youngsters are as good as Pienaar yet, but Pienaar isn't our future (neither is Hougaard) and I see atleast two that might be.

Hi Fern, but do you agree the youngsters should have been given a chance against Argentina?

Yes, I think so.

Meyer probably wants to do it a bit slowly, that is why I think JdV will be the last to go as he is captain as well. He is probably only going to blood 2-3 players and only play them from the bench. I am good with that. I just am not good with FdP and RP being their at the same time. You don't play two international players at the same position, when you can blood one new one.

I am either FdP or RP, but not both. RP and someone else is probably going to be on tour, but Meyer probably is a bit desperate for home games that is why he is doing this. If we can get 2-3 decently blooded through the championship I am fine with it, then maybe another few for the AIs.

Piet van Zyl is going on tour with the Boks, but what concerns me is Meyer had the ideal opportunity to give Van Zyl a 20 minute spell in SA, now he must give him at least 40 minutes in Mendoza to see how he goes.

I would have preferred if Van Zyl had two matches under his belt by the time he gets to OZ.

Remember Fourie du Preez is available when they get home, so what happens to Piet v Zyl then?

Sent home again?

That's sensible enough. Having two 30ish+ players in the position is not ideal. I would back Meyer over keeping DeVilliers in their though. I don't think it's ideal to blood two new centres at the same time but Meyer clearly rates Serfontein to keep him around. (does he only cover 1 position?)

Given you have two newbies being blooded in the backline maybe that's part of his thinking too.

Yeah I don't think Meyer will drop de Villiers, besides de Villiers has stepped up this season and has looked good.

Thus far Meyer has been giving Serfontein a few minutes every now and then.

I would like to see however, one match maybe in Mendoza where Meyer puts Jean at 13 and Serfontein on for 80 at 12

Biltong wrote:Remember Fourie du Preez is available when they get home, so what happens to Piet v Zyl then?

Sent home again?

Yes, I think he will.

Meyer wants to get bonus point wins at home

woooah...try argie...been watching this match since the 20th minute and it feels like nothing was happening but scrums and knock-ons. now its picked up a bit...

Argentina are producing very quick front foot ball from the breakdown, where as earlier in the match the breakdown was much more scrappy. I think Steve Walsh is helping things a long a bit demanding "Use it 9" as soon as the ball is available at the ruck. Their lineouts have been very good as well. South Africa need to pick things up a bit.

I see henry is in the games room. Looks like he didnt like last weeks result either. Bit of a turnaround from last week to be now leading at half time.

Very, very entertaining game of rugby. Delighted to see Argentina fronting up but I think South Africa will still shade it. Still, it should be a tight game and South Africa need to work very hard to turn it around so that's much better for the competition than another washout.

The argie try before half time shouldnt have been scored that easily. The centre just had a go from 5 meters out and went through easily. Surprisingly easy, he was upright but they still didnt get in under him to close him down.

Kind of error strewn due to Arg playing at 100 MPH. Much better from them this week though.

Can the Ref do that if a player complains he was gouged? I thought only the officials and citing commission were in the position to take action, but only if they've seen the incident. Surely anyone can complain they were gouged and get a stoppage if this isn't the case.