Springbok team for Argentina this weekend.

First topic message reminder :

15 Willie le Roux GWK Griquas 3
14 Bjorn Basson Vodacom Blue Bulls 9
13 JJ Engelbrecht Vodacom Blue Bulls 4
12 Jean de Villiers(c) DHL Western Province 87
11 Bryan Habana Toulon, France 86
10 Morné Steyn Stade Francais, France 45
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N.Ireland 66
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 7
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 21
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 19
5 Juandré Kruger Racing Metro, France 11
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 14
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 45
2 Adriaan Strauss Toyota FS Cheetahs 24
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 44

Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis The Sharks 48
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 40
18 Coenie Oosthuizen Toyota FS Cheetahs 4
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 26
20 Siya Kolisi DHL Western Province 2
21 Fourie du Preez Suntory Sungoliath, Japan 62
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 23
23 Jan Serfontein Vodacom Blue Bulls 3

I think it is a good squad, but I would have preferred to see, Lambie in place of Morne Steyn (for the future), Van Zyl or Pretorius in place of Pienaar (For the future).

This is a very watchable game compared to last week's stroll in the park for SA. Can't help but feel that SA will win this as they can't/won't let the Argies gain such control up front in the second half

handling is terrible...argies have no patience with it and are throwing wild short passes everywhere. SA need to pick up their intensity if theyre going to go away but could end up with a tight finish.

......but at least it is competitive. After last week's game, I genuinely thought the IRB/3n had made a mistake by delaying Argies involvement in the RC too long and, by the time they did get in, their best players had retired.
The game isn't a thing a beauty but better than some of the drivel in the 6N I hate to admit

Willie le Roux is having a 'mare

Argetnina's offloading in the last couple of minutes as been fantastic.

Is JdV more used to playing soccerball? Get out of the ref's face, you idiot. He s becoming a pain in the ass with all his whining. Fair enough if there was gouging but he already moaned about that and the TMO said there was nothing wrong (and ignored the Argies headgear getting pulled off!)

InjuredYetAgain wrote:......but at least it is competitive. After last week's game, I genuinely thought the IRB/3n had made a mistake by delaying Argies involvement in the RC too long and, by the time they did get in, their best players had retired.
The game isn't a thing a beauty but better than some of the drivel in the 6N I hate to admit

Big hits, big carries, some slick attacking, plenty of physicality and tension, and a good contest in the scrum! Whats not to love?

How good is this kid Pablo Matero at 6 for Argentina? He's just 20. Gonna be a big star.

Sanchez is some player, what a step he's got.

Well 12 mins left and Argie on attack. Upset is certainly on. Argie just need to be patient and disciplined to see this out. One still thinks the Habanas of this side will take matters into their own hands and end it any way they can.

The Argie SHs seem to be pretty useful. Pichot mkII possibly?
Line out in Argie 22 - cue try or penalty

GLove39 wrote:Sanchez is some player, what a step he's got.

The Argentina 9 Landajo has really impressed me as well as has their blindside Matera. Matera has been at the forefront of Argentina meeting South Africa physically.

Someone should sign Matera up, pronto. He's gonna be a massive international star. He has everything and he's only 20.

Humphreys get yer check book!

Whats not taking the shot at goal about?

Crazy....

Shame, but Argentina pay the price for not scoring a single point this half. Still great to see them bounce back from last weeks.

No, its smart. Own the ball deep in the red zone, wait for them to offend again trying to get it back.

Do I need to remind anyone about the time Ireland took a penalty against France to push it out to 4 points in the last moments only for Vincent Clerc to score right off the restart.

If you were Argentinian would you trust a ref who although English is his first language is barely understandable by the English speaking world and he dyes his hair and beard. The Afrikaners got a little bit ratty once under pressure...

What do you guys think? A big improvement by Argentina or a big drop of by SA from last week?
As I saw it, Argentina were much more competitive and seemed to be better organised. I am not sure how much time they had together before the first game. Bearing in mind they are not involved in Super Rugby, they may well have been undercooked too.
If I was a Saffer, I would be worried about how easily the argues got over the gain line etc. it was quite like there game against us in the summer where they just looked like they couldn't be bothered

Disappointing there wasn't a more exciting end. SA didn't look like scoring for 20 minutes when Argentina were ahead, then Argentina didn't look like scoring when they went behind.

Pisspoor from the Boks, just as I have been saying all along, inconsistent, and still don't know how to adapt.

Argentina is very intelligent theway they play at home, at every set phase there is an injury, a team meeting and a few minutes wasted.

Last year they hit the ruck en masse and simply just flopped onto the ground, and did the same thing again tonight, yet we don't know how to counter it.

Their first try was illegal as Adriaan Strauss was pulled in by their hooker at the front of the line out in front of Walsh and the linesman, leaving a huge gap for the try.

Pathetic performance.

Oh and Ruan Pienaar is kak.

Apart from those thoughts, Bilts, you were quite pleased?
Agree about the block at the front of the line out for the first try but show me a move at the front of the line out that [i]doesn't[i] involve illegal blocking

Injured, I am not happy at all.

I'll list you a few games where we struggled at the breakdwon in the past two and a half years.

RWC 2011
Samoa and Australia

Rugby Championship 2012
Argentina in Mendoza

June test series 2012
Scotland

And today.

They all had one thing in common. In all of those matches we had a superior attack, yet bar the Australian game which was different, all the otehr ones were against teams who played, negative, niggly tactics at the breakdown, and we cracked, we didn't know how to handle it.

Meyer promised we will adapt to the breakdown, we haven't.

Argenitna tonight played niggly, a little bite here a hand in the face there, hitting rucks en masse and flopping onto the ground, and we just didn't sort it out.

Ontop of that, what the Ulster supporters see in Pienaar I simply can't fathom.

Then you are not very insightful about rugby!

If he's that bad, give him back...

Trust me, as a Scarlets fan who has been on the receiving end of many impressive Pienaar displays, the guy is quality. Perhaps it's a case of not being fully adjusted to Test rugby, or perhaps he's just one of these players forever destined to be the fantastic player in an average side (not calling Ulster average, but their players relative to Pienaar/compared to an international team), much like Parisse, never quite matching his Italian performances for Stade.

I get that in the aftermath of such a game it's difficult to not be passionate Biltong, but I think your assessment of the breakdown is a little harsh on Argentina. South Africa didn't help themselves with aimless kicking, especially in the second half. Far too many turnovers were instantly put into the corner, or into the dead ball zone. There was little in terms of variety. South Africa ought to have gone through the phases and drawn out Argentina, who are very much a momentum team, into conceding penalties, and with Steyn kicking, kept the score board ticking over. Then bringing the likes of Engelbrecht and le Roox would have had greater success. I suppose you counter that by saying Argentina were getting away with infringements at the breakdown, but it's about being savvy, simply maintain your discipline until an Argentinian forward cracks, which they almost certainly will. Thought South Africa also lacked leadership; JDV is a fine player, but when it calls for a war of attrition, a captain in the backs never helps.

In reality, with 10 minutes to go, a game Argentina should have won. They had plenty of opportunities to score a try, but choked up the ball or knocked it on around the 22 too often. Inexperience or lack of belief for the home team?

Perhaps Pienaar is struggling for South Africa as a result of the breakdown issues you highlighted that the Boks have? Any 9 will seriously struggle in a team that struggles at the breakdown. I also think that you are being a bit unfair saying Argentina were negative at the breakdown, at their own breakdown they produced very quick front foot ball tonight and attacked as much as possible. Of course when SA were in position they spoiled as much as possible thats what rugby is all about. I also think you are way off saying you had superior attack tonight. I think South Africa were the more conservative of the two teams when in possession by a considerable margin. Argentina were offloading like there was no tomorrow and running it from everywhere, probably a bit too wild for their own good. I think you are way off saying you were the superior attacking team, you were outscored 2 tries to 1 and Argentina showed a hell of a lot more attacking intent than the very conservative game plan of the Boks. Back to Pienaar, maybe he doesn't thrive on the conservative game plan of the Boks and does better in an attacking team like Ulster.

Let's be fair, Argentina dominated the breakdown. Pienaar could have cleared the ball away quicker but the South African pack were too slow to the breakdown and didn't clear out as aggressively as they could have or protect the ball well.

I think Pienaar didn't have his best game, but its kind of silly to say he's kak. He's a world class player.

You also need to give Argentina some credit. How is it possible you win and still manage to come off as a bad loser?

miaow wrote:Trust me, as a Scarlets fan who has been on the receiving end of many impressive Pienaar displays, the guy is quality. Perhaps it's a case of not being fully adjusted to Test rugby, or perhaps he's just one of these players forever destined to be the fantastic player in an average side (not calling Ulster average, but their players relative to Pienaar/compared to an international team), much like Parisse, never quite matching his Italian performances for Stade.

I get that in the aftermath of such a game it's difficult to not be passionate Biltong, but I think your assessment of the breakdown is a little harsh on Argentina. South Africa didn't help themselves with aimless kicking, especially in the second half. Far too many turnovers were instantly put into the corner, or into the dead ball zone. There was little in terms of variety. South Africa ought to have gone through the phases and drawn out Argentina, who are very much a momentum team, into conceding penalties, and with Steyn kicking, kept the score board ticking over. Then bringing the likes of Engelbrecht and le Roox would have had greater success.

In reality, with 10 minutes to go, a game Argentina should have won. They had plenty of opportunities to score a try, but choked up the ball or knocked it on around the 22 too often.

I thought on many occasions tonight, South Africa player like le Roux and Pienaar kicked even in the Argentina half, when it wasn't on. For Ulster Pienaar attacks a hell of a lot more than he does for South Africa. Suggests a very conservative game plan that the Boks are employing to me despite having very attacking players in the backs.

Artful, he did the same thing last weekend, there was a marked difference in the speed and accuracy Pienaar cleared vs Fourie du Preez.

Notch wrote:Let's be fair, Argentina dominated the breakdown. Pienaar could have cleared the ball away quicker but the South African pack were too slow to the breakdown and didn't clear out as aggressively as they could have or protect the ball well.

I think Pienaar didn't have his best game, but its kind of silly to say he's kak. He's a world class player.

You also need to give Argentina some credit. How is it possible you win and still manage to come off as a bad loser?

how am I a bad loser?

I am seriously peeved off at our performance. Most South Africans I spoke to during the week said the Boks have turned a corner, I warned them what was going to happen in Mendoza, and I was laughed at, I said before anuone gets carried away lets see what happens when a team pitches up and play the same tactics as last year.

My predictions all came true.

Biltong, ya know Argentina is a very very difficult place to go and get a win in international test rugby. If Ireland had just won a game there with the performance the Puma's put in tonight, I'd probably be pretty happy.

My concern wouldn't be the performance of the players, more that Meyer's game plan is a bit 'Kidneyesque' as we say in Ireland.

Biltong wrote:

Notch wrote:Let's be fair, Argentina dominated the breakdown. Pienaar could have cleared the ball away quicker but the South African pack were too slow to the breakdown and didn't clear out as aggressively as they could have or protect the ball well.

I think Pienaar didn't have his best game, but its kind of silly to say he's kak. He's a world class player.

You also need to give Argentina some credit. How is it possible you win and still manage to come off as a bad loser?

how am I a bad loser?

I am seriously peeved off at our performance. Most South Africans I spoke to during the week said the Boks have turned a corner, I warned them what was going to happen in Mendoza, and I was laughed at, I said before anuone gets carried away lets see what happens when a team pitches up and play the same tactics as last year.

My predictions all came true.

Because you're not giving any credit to Argentina. Just moaning about your own side. It's not all about you. South Africa were poor tonight because Argentina did a number on them at the breakdown. You've got to give credit to Argentinas backrow for an outstanding performance.

Come on Notch, we have reacted in the exact same way after plenty of Ireland games over the past few years.

True. But I think when you are second best on the pitch but first place on the scoreboard you have to think gee, thank god for that.

I think you saw the lack of leadership for Argentina to just see that one out. Heartbreaking, but thats how you learn.

Notch, the only way a superior team is pulled back is by tactics that are negative. when a team employs those tactics it doesn't make them deserved of a win.

They still aren't the superior team.

They outwitted us, for that I have given them kudo's, but that is the only credit they will receive from me.

I will repeat, we are to stupid to adjust to these tactics.

Biltong, outwitting is part of the game. I actually think they played better than us.

I agree with you with all the Pienaar comments, I just don't think he is Springbok material anymore. He always played well for the Sharks too, but then when Michelac came on you could also see the difference in the Sharks game. Pienaar is too old now, and h hasn't made use of all the chances he has gotten.

Oh, and I think we can safely say that last week as probably just a bit more of Argentina being a bit undercooked than us getting really that much better.

miaow wrote:Trust me, as a Scarlets fan who has been on the receiving end of many impressive Pienaar displays, the guy is quality. Perhaps it's a case of not being fully adjusted to Test rugby, or perhaps he's just one of these players forever destined to be the fantastic player in an average side (not calling Ulster average, but their players relative to Pienaar/compared to an international team), much like Parisse, never quite matching his Italian performances for Stade.

In my experience Pienaar has never impressed hugely at international level against NZ and he's been in and out of the side since at least 2010 that I can recall and this isnt the first time this subject has been raised around Pienaar. I think it is more of a case of his not quite measuring up internationally.

The Pumas could and probably should have won in the last 10 but I always felt the Boks would take it. A side like the Boks will always call on reserve in the final 10 and that happened here.

The Oz SA clash is really interesting as its the first meeting of the two zones- the Lions/ Oz/ NZ vs the Bok/ Puma outfits. For me they look even in that neither is at the top of their game and both are struggling with combinations. For me the Oz backline stands out as vastly underdone in terms of experience and ability and over recent years its been one of their strengths vs the Boks for some reason. I dont think thats the case this year and the Boks look more complete. But agree with Biltong...their gameplan and tactics arent up to scratch yet and it will need to be to make the ozzies pay.

For Oz the match could be seen as slightly easier after a high profile Lions series and a beating from NZ. But I just think its not a very high standard Oz side this year more than anything.

Sorry, Bilts but I am going to have to disagree with you. Pienaar is an excellent player at Rabo and, more importantly, Heineken Cup level. Perhaps your frustration with him is caused by your backrow's inability to give quick ball plus a general look of apathy among the forwards.
I don't put a lot of credibility in cold stats but to me watching the ame, Argentina seemed just as likely, if not more so, to play rugby.
From our recent exchanges I really can sense your annoyance with the whole set up in SA but I think you are being very harsh on Argentina.

Injured as I said earlier in this thread, compare the service last weekend of Fourie du Preez and Pienaar.

There is no comparison.

and last week he couldn't have had an easier ride behind our pack.

Bilts, why do the SA team (forwards in particular) look as if they can't be bothered. They were like that against us and it took a questionable yellow card for Jim Hamilton to turn the tide. Truth be told, it probably would have turned but the unwarranted yellow made it happen earlier.
Argentina and Italy (and Richie McCaw) have always had a reputation for illegally slowing lay down ball so it is up to the opponents coaching team to work round this. Are you hacked off at Meyer for not being able to do this. Although perrhaps he does have a game plan but his players can't execute it properly?

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Bilts, why do the SA team (forwards in particular) look as if they can't be bothered. They were like that against us and it took a questionable yellow card for Jim Hamilton to turn the tide. Truth be told, it probably would have turned but the unwarranted yellow made it happen earlier.
Argentina and Italy (and Richie McCaw) have always had a reputation for illegally slowing lay down ball so it is up to the opponents coaching team to work round this. Are you hacked off at Meyer for not being able to do this. Although perrhaps he does have a game plan but his players can't execute it properly?

i am hacked off either way, I don't believe our players can't hack it, we have some of the best forwards in world rugby, if you ask me it is Meyer's coaching staff and him.

Biltong wrote:
They outwitted us, for that I have given them kudo's, but that is the only credit they will receive from me.

I will repeat, we are to stupid to adjust to these tactics.

Come on, we all know test rugby is about what you can get away with. Many of the the great Springbok teams have pushed the laws to the limit over the years, especially with regards to illegal clear outs and high tackles, to try and physically intimidate the opposition. That doesn't make them a poor side. They get away with what they can.

If you're not giving credit to Argentina for the way they bounced back after last week, you're not using both eyes. The two flankers, Matero and Leguizamon, were phenomenal. It's not often you see a Springbok backrow get physically dominated at the breakdown.

Notch wrote:

Biltong wrote:
They outwitted us, for that I have given them kudo's, but that is the only credit they will receive from me.

I will repeat, we are to stupid to adjust to these tactics.

Come on, we all know test rugby is about what you can get away with. Many of the the great Springbok teams have pushed the laws to the limit over the years, especially with regards to illegal clear outs and high tackles, to try and physically intimidate the opposition. That doesn't make them a poor side. They get away with what they can.

If you're not giving credit to Argentina for the way they bounced back after last week, you're not using both eyes. The two flankers, Matero and Leguizamon, were phenomenal. It's not often you see a Springbok backrow get physically dominated at the breakdown.

Come on, you seriously going to compare us being physical to the "new age" trickery?

Whats not to compare? Both are bending the laws to win. And as if South Africa don'tr cheat at the breakdown. Every team does it and every team cheats at the breakddown. And you're massively over-exaggerating the issue here. Like I said, Matero and Leguizamon were majestic. Were Alberts and Louw playing at all? Maybe if they had hit a few more rucks we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It's pretty easy to flop over the ball when the guys who should have gotten to the breakdown a few seconds ago to stop them are jogging across from the other side of the pitch.

Notch you are missing the point completely.

It disappointment has nothing to do with how Argentina played, it is how we didn't play and didn't adapt.

That is why I am unhappy.

Biltong, at the risk of re raising your blood pressure to critical levels, let's think hypothetically. You are head of SARU with total control - who would you have as head coach, what structural changes to the union would you bring in and what other changes would you implement. Let's be realistic here and appreciate the the lure of big bucks in France and England will always be there