Springbok team for Argentina this weekend.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Aug 2013, 2:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

15 Willie le Roux GWK Griquas 3
14 Bjorn Basson Vodacom Blue Bulls 9
13 JJ Engelbrecht Vodacom Blue Bulls 4
12 Jean de Villiers(c) DHL Western Province 87
11 Bryan Habana Toulon, France 86
10 Morné Steyn Stade Francais, France 45
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N.Ireland 66
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 7
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 21
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 19
5 Juandré Kruger Racing Metro, France 11
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 14
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 45
2 Adriaan Strauss Toyota FS Cheetahs 24
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 44

Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis The Sharks 48
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 40
18 Coenie Oosthuizen Toyota FS Cheetahs 4
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 26
20 Siya Kolisi DHL Western Province 2
21 Fourie du Preez Suntory Sungoliath, Japan 62
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 23
23 Jan Serfontein Vodacom Blue Bulls 3

I think it is a good squad, but I would have preferred to see, Lambie in place of Morne Steyn (for the future), Van Zyl or Pretorius in place of Pienaar (For the future).

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:18 pm

Forward pressure leads to another try and the second BP of the championship...

Argentina are struggling now.

by **Galted** Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:20 pm

bsando wrote:How was that a yellow card? He placed the player safely, no bad intentions what so ever. I feel sorry for Argentina, they've had some terrible calls against them. The first yellow was obvious but that second one is a joke.

Are you being serious? Placing a player "safely" head & shoulders first into the ground, I think, is an offence.

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:22 pm

Great interception by JdV, catching that pass took some skill. He read it very well...

45 - 6

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:22 pm

SA are strolling this one. It's already a rout, with the time that's left it could be a massacre.

by The Saint Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:24 pm

Happy with this result Biltong?

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:25 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:SA are strolling this one. It's already a rout, with the time that's left it could be a massacre.

How long have the Argentinian coaches had their players? They look very undercooked compared to their opposition...!

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:27 pm

NZ-SA will be the one to watch based on today's evidence.

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:27 pm

Superb line and pass by JdV

by The Saint Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:29 pm

Argentina looked very undercooked the same time last year. They will be a much improved team next week, though SA look too good to go out and lose to them.

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:31 pm

A home crowd will help but this SA team look very good.

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:33 pm

The Argies' first-up tackling is almost non-existent (not taking anything away from the Boks' runners though). Stand up and take note Wales in anticipation of November!

by The Saint Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:37 pm

SA are relentless and unstoppable. Hope they take that attitude to the All Blacks.

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:38 pm

Great try... Vermeullen crosses from an inside pass from Steyn.

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:39 pm

66 - 6

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:43 pm

71-6 conversion to come.

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:44 pm

Can they make it 80??

by maestegmafia Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:45 pm

What a performance...!

Argentina don't look anywhere near as good as they were at the end of the RC last year.

by Knowsit17 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:47 pm

Aaaand try to the Argies. On second thought SA aren't all that

by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:49 pm

Much as I thought. SA will have to prepare next week for a backlash because Argentina are a different proposition at home.

That said SA is looking good. They dominated like this last year in the opening game but they converted their chances much better this year. Their trip Down Under will see how much they've improved since last year but they look to be a real handful for NZ and Oz..

by **Biltong** Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:53 pm

Poor start by South Africa, they looked dire in the first thirty minutes.

Scrum went well
Line outs were superb
Breakdowns was cleaned quickly and effeciently.
Du Preez cleared the rucks a lot faster than Pienaar
Support runners ran onto the ball at pace
Execution was better and some good offloads as well.

Now the question, what will they do against a team that actually pitch up?

by wales606 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:53 pm

This South Africa team still confuses me

Average for the first 30 minutes, then they run away with it.

Not sure if this is a great South Africa team or was a dismal Argentina.

by **Notch** Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:54 pm

Argentina struggling again- I was hoping their utterly abject displays to England B in the summer were an aberration. They did illustrate they lack depth in that series and a lot of the guys they were missing then aren't getting any younger. Still, I expected a better showing.

South Africa in the mood.

by Hound of Harrow Sat 17 Aug 2013, 5:55 pm

maestegmafia wrote:66 - 6

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 17 Aug 2013, 6:06 pm

ARG will be seeing a lot more of these results unless they can get a franchise into super rugby. They have no dept in the squad.

Although if a global season does happen then perhaps the English and French teams will start signing their players again.

by GLove39 Sat 17 Aug 2013, 6:25 pm

Just seen the score line. Bloody hell!
Expected South Africa to win, but not by 60 points!

by Cyril Sat 17 Aug 2013, 7:11 pm

Argentina just seem to be going backwards these days.

by Standulstermen Sat 17 Aug 2013, 8:35 pm

Thought pienaar looked very good bil but i didn't see FDP in fairness. Great result. I do think the boks are on the cusp of something impressive. 10 will be key though

by Taylorman Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:14 am

Well I didnt expect anything like that margin so that has to be encouraging for the Boks. Even though the first 20 or so was about sorting out who's boss the Boks sure sewed up that argument. Without undermining the Argie effort this looked like the Boks of old and it looks as though we are in for some very bruising battles this year, particularly in the first half. The boks traditional strength is to gain dominance up front and in the tight and they look to have that sorted.

The rematch is ideal for the bok campaign as they get tested away and obvioulsy wont put that sort of score on again- just doesnt happen.

Some nice skills and good to see JDV leading by example, getting up for that intercept just one example of his commitment and experience in this side.

The trick is whether they have a real plan B when the dominance doesnt come so easily but all in all, the two winning sides clear faves to battle this one. Oz just dont look to ave the same firepower as they did even in the Deans era.

Well done the Boks, those age old nightmares of that bottle green jersey marauding over our boys in black a little easier to recall now...

by **Biltong** Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:23 am

I think we must be careful not to jump the gun.

This was not a vintage performance by the Boks.

They took thirty minutes to make their first decent attacking move.

Against Australia and New Zealand that won't be good enough.

Their defence held out, but it wasn't with great attacking flair that Argentina attacked the line, when Argentina pciked and drove, they did make meters.

Too soon to tell anything from that performance.

by Taylorman Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:51 am

We can recognise a smokescreen when we see one Biltong but yes it is early days but its also true that between this and last year based on this match either SA have improved immensely or Argie have gone backwards because even defensively Argie were never as bad as that in all of last year. So somethings changed. We'll know more next week in terms of a one off but agree more when the pacific based sides meet them.

Still an impressive win I thought.

by **Biltong** Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:54 am

Argentina put no pressure whatsoever on the breakdown.

That meant we could run riot.

Wait till we play the All Blacks, they aren't going to stand off the rucks. That means slower ball, the All Blacks will also not miss 25% of their tackles.

You know what SA does when there is pressure. They go back into their shells.

That's all I am saying

by bsando Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:57 am

Galted wrote:
bsando wrote:How was that a yellow card? He placed the player safely, no bad intentions what so ever. I feel sorry for Argentina, they've had some terrible calls against them. The first yellow was obvious but that second one is a joke.
Are you being serious? Placing a player "safely" head & shoulders first into the ground, I think, is an offence.

Placing a player head and shoulders into the ground should always earn a player a yellow or red card. Yet in real time and in slow motion, it was clearly obvious that the tackler did not do this. He ensured the player landed on his side, neck and head not in danger. He even argued this point to the ref afterwards to no avail. That is the weakest tip tackle I have seen be awarded a yellow in an international.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for refs being critical of dangerous tackles, but that tackle was in no way dangerous in my opinion. Argentina were hard done by in that particular instance.

by bsando Sun 18 Aug 2013, 1:07 am

I have to say that was the worst Argentine performance I have ever witnessed. I would not say SA played very well, more Argentina played poorly. Credit has to go to SA of course, but Biltong is spot on. That performance vs NZ or Aus probably wouldn't have been good enough. However, they got what they wanted, a bonus point win. Another one away in Argentina could prove crucial to finishing second or even first. By the time australia face argentina i highly doubt they'll find them so easy to beat. I suspect Argentina are simply rusty and will improve as the tournament progresses. But they got well and truly thrashed today and In This tournament, points and BP's for aus and SA are crucial, so it was a job well done as far as Meyer is concerned.

by maestegmafia Sun 18 Aug 2013, 3:10 am

It looked like Argentina hadnt trained together for as long as the Boks. They made basic silly errors at set piece and defence and had no team game plan at the breakdown.

I don't say that to discredit what was a very very good Bok performance, but more that I think Argentina will find their stride by the third game or so...!

Unless their confidence is severely rocked by this match.

They have to forget it, work hard and play the way we know they can...!

SA were sublime though..

by HammerofThunor Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:23 am

They haven't played any warm up games have they? It's been since that last Autumn since they played together. Big problem is if they played 1st team in summer, RC and AI then no-one in Europe would hire their players as they were need to miss over the half the season with rest periods and internationals. They really need a couple of teams in the SH domestic season and/or globally synced international season.

by nganboy Sun 18 Aug 2013, 10:12 am

Personally I thought Arg were very poor. Fell asleep in the second half mind you it was 4am

by MMaaxx Sun 18 Aug 2013, 10:22 am

On paper that was a strong Arg team that came into the match with a month of prep and well rested. They should never have lost by such a margin. SA deserves a lot of credit, it's not often you see an Arg pack made to look like a bunch of school kids.

As for the Boks, the first 30m were always going to be scrappy and I had expected an easy win by about 15pts. There was too much impact and experience on the Bok bench for the match to have gone any other way.

FDP was, as Nick Mallet said post match 'sublime'. Definitely upped the tempo. SA have really missed him. Strauss is such a solid player and never has a bad game. I prefer him starting with Bismarck coming in with 20 to go.

Boks building nicely pre WC2015. Will be interesting to see how a fit and firing F Steyn, J Fourie, J Taute, JP Pieterson and J Goosen can fit in.

by VinceWLB Sun 18 Aug 2013, 11:44 am

Guys i have a question, why did they chose Argentina to enter the rugby championship and not Samoa?

Surely Samoa are better and travelling wouldn't be as big.

by bsando Sun 18 Aug 2013, 11:51 am

I'm not so sure about that Vince. Argentina did after all beat France in the 3rd 4th playoff in the RWC 2007. They consistently make world cup quarter finals (unlike Samoa) and give most teams a pretty hard time. Samoa being a good team is quite a recent thing I believe. Samoa vs South Africa may have been a closer game yesterday, but I think Argentina were just very rusty or had an off day.

It probably also comes down to television coverage, stadium capacity, sponsors etc etc, the stuff I know very little about...

by **Biltong** Sun 18 Aug 2013, 11:57 am

Money Vince. sANZAR does not have the money to subsidise Samoa, SA is already splitting their share of revenue with OZ and NZ.

by VinceWLB Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:04 pm

Yeah i know Argentina were good in the 2007 RWC, actually they have been good since at least the 1999 RWC where they beat Ireland.

But as of today to me they are in steep decline since 2010-2011 and unlike Italy i don't see them improving unless they get a team in the super rugby as previously mentionned.

Samoa to me are making huge progress, scrum is no longer a problem for them with the Johnstons, they ran South Africa very close recently, they also beat confortably Scotland and Italy in that same tournament and should have by all accounts beaten France in Paris.

by VinceWLB Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:07 pm

Biltong wrote:Money Vince. sANZAR does not have the money to subsidise Samoa, SA is already splitting their share of revenue with OZ and NZ.

Yeah should have known better that it had to do with money.

For such a small country, they have an amazing amount of talents, i hope they get there somehow, they deserve it more than Argentina.

by Mr Fishpaste Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:18 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Yeah i know Argentina were good in the 2007 RWC, actually they have been good since at least the 1999 RWC where they beat Ireland.

But as of today to me they are in steep decline since 2010-2011 and unlike Italy i don't see them improving unless they get a team in the super rugby as previously mentionned.

Samoa to me are making huge progress, scrum is no longer a problem for them with the Johnstons, they ran South Africa very close recently, they also beat confortably Scotland and Italy in that same tournament and should have by all accounts beaten France in Paris.

? 56-23: seven tries to two! They didn't fair all that much better than Argentina...

But I do agree with your analysis that ARG do seem to be in a bit of a decline...but time will tell

by bsando Sun 18 Aug 2013, 5:47 pm

I don't think the quad tournament was a good indicator for Samoa's strength. The Scottish side they beat... Tonks, Lamont, Dunbar, Scott, Visser, Heathcote, Laidlaw, Dickinson, MacArthur, Murray, Gilchrist, Kellock, Strokosch, Brown, Beattie.

That is missing Maitland, Hogg, Gray, Grant and Weir. The highlighted players are new/non regular first team players. It wasn't a bad Scottish side, but they were testing strength in depth the whole tournament due to Lions absentees and injuries, of which there were many in the end. It was also their first ever loss to Samoa, 27 - 17.

Samoa's win against Wales in Cardiff last Autumn was very impressive however, probably their best win in recent history. Mainly due to the style in which they won that game, they made Wales look like an easy team to beat on their home turf which not many top tier nations could say they've done. A team that is on the up and in with a good chance of making the quarter finals of the 2015 WC if they play well.

by maestegmafia Sun 18 Aug 2013, 11:26 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Guys i have a question, why did they chose Argentina to enter the rugby championship and not Samoa?

Surely Samoa are better and travelling wouldn't be as big.

Because Argentina is a large country with a large economy full of sports fans.

It would be great to see Samoa, Fiji and Tonga join the Rugby Championship. Hopefully they will in the next decade.

by nganboy Mon 19 Aug 2013, 1:28 am

The problem though is most of the Samoans are Kiwis. So its sort of poaching.

by GunsGerms Mon 19 Aug 2013, 9:43 am

Thats the best I have seen SA play in a long long time. Well done SA, seriously good.

by maestegmafia Mon 19 Aug 2013, 9:59 am

I agree great SA performance, this is a good team.

Argentina were unlucky to have a number of injuries as well as looking under prepared. I am sure they will give a better account of themselves in games to come.

by GunsGerms Mon 19 Aug 2013, 11:14 am

Piennar was a class apart. 5 of the starting 15 play in the NH. I think SAs performance puts to bed the notion that SH players that play NH club rugby are somehow off the pace.

by **Biltong** Mon 19 Aug 2013, 11:23 am

Disagree with that Guns.

Pienaar for me was the weakest player on the pitch, it only became evident when Fourie du Preez went on. Pienaar is pedantic and his service is slow.

As for the rest of the overseas players, I don't want them and the reason is simple.

If you have a club that dictates when you may or may not play for you country, then you are unreliable and messes with continuity of selections.

Fourie du Preez may now not travel with SA, so for the next three away tests he may not play.

Then another thing, if you have a multi million Rand contract overseas, and it is in jeopardy if you get injured, why would you give your all for your team?

The fact is you go overseas to make money, and you are not going to out that in danger.

I am a glass full person, there are no half measures.

It signifies commitment and hunger.

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