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Wow. Just wow. South Africa look to be in awesome form.

Granted Australian rugby is in its most miserable state for fifty years, but there is no disguising how intimidating  this Springbok side is.

The Boks have now married their power game with a rapier precision in the Back line and the experience to know when to switch modes. Add Morne Steyn's siege boot and back in form long range goal kicking and you have a serious unit that will be tough to beat. 

Normally poor tourists, South Africa easily outmuscled a fragile looking Australia and clinched a convincing win at the bastion of Australian resistance, the parochial Suncorp stadium.

In this kind of form I can see South Africa ending new Zealand's long run of success at Eden Park. Especially with captain Richie out injured and Dan Carter out of form.

Hats off to Heyneke Meyer. I was a detractor and I put my hand up and say I was wrong.

Most impressive is south Africa's command at the breakdown. Defensively they must have the best turn over rate in the rugby championship and on attack they can maintain pressure through numerous phases and patiently wait their chance to pounce.  Just awesome stuff.

We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

and nothing to do with Carlos Spencer not being able to hit a barn door from 5 paces????

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

My bad, i was referring to the last game we played and beat you. But that was only with 14 men, and you're right, in the last ten minutes so doesn't count.

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

My bad, i was referring to the last game we played and beat you. But that was only with 14 men, and you're right, in the last ten minutes so doesn't count.

Yes it also doesn't count because of [insert excuse about players here] and [insert excuse about refereeing here] and [insert complaint about the alignment of Mars and Jupiter here].

was old suzi the assistant referee that day too? So talented, so multi-skilled that girl.

Chjw131 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

My bad, i was referring to the last game we played and beat you. But that was only with 14 men, and you're right, in the last ten minutes so doesn't count.

Yes it also doesn't count because of [insert excuse about players here] and [insert excuse about refereeing here] and [insert complaint about the alignment of Mars and Jupiter here].

thats not completely correct...nothing wong with the alignment last time I checked.

Taylorman wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

My bad, i was referring to the last game we played and beat you. But that was only with 14 men, and you're right, in the last ten minutes so doesn't count.

Yes it also doesn't count because of [insert excuse about players here] and [insert excuse about refereeing here] and [insert complaint about the alignment of Mars and Jupiter here].

thats not completely correct...nothing wong with the alignment last time I checked.

That's because you're using an English made Octant to check and that's out.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:We've already learned in this forum that yellow cards in the last 10 minutes don't count.

Anyway NZ lost that game because Joe Rokocoko had a try disallowed for being off side when really he was well onside and just very fast.

and nothing to do with Carlos Spencer not being able to hit a barn door from 5 paces????

That'd be it FA. I was at the stadium so saw it first hand. Wilko put on a masterclass-getting the pill to change direction twice and still go through. NZ's forwards from 98-03 had a powderpuff look about them in hindsight and I think the lesson NZ got from the English pack that day as well as the 03 semi loss really kicked them into shoring up their pack so that they are rarely bettered.

https://youtu.be/gjVCVczJklA

But he could do that.

disneychilly wrote:NZ's forwards from 98-03 had a powderpuff look about them

Two words sum that up...Randall, Thorne.

Disagree

The Front five weren't doing their jobs and so Randall and Thorne were having to do their job for them.

Mind you never rated Thorne and Randall should not have been playing 6. Note he was the one who gave the pass to Lomu in the Game of all Time

Reuben Thorne reminds me of Chris Robshaw no end.

GloriousEmpire wrote:https://youtu.be/gjVCVczJklA

But he could do that.

Thats a nice cameo and for me he is still the most talented 10 the pro game has seen... I remember when he came off the bench for the NZ baa baas vs. England in the late 90s.... chipped over the defensive line, swerved past the fullback and straight under the posts.

Yet come the crunch, the big games he could never be relied on as he couldn't place kick... his rate was beyond dire. In that 13-15 loss alone I'm sure he missed about 4-5 kicks, some weren't even close... whilst JW slotted all of his despite the terrible weather.

Not going to win the big matches without a top rate kicker. Meyer to this day still says his criteria for choosing his flyhalf is clear... who is the best kicker?

In a recent comment Meyer started with "Steyn may not be the most talented player I've ever coached but..." gotta be great for your confidence.

Dont fully understand the logic of not playing Du Plessis this weekend. They must be confident. NZ are being sternly reminded of not taking their eyes off the ball and thinking about next weekend yet SA are doing exactly that. Lose to Oz, which I dont think will happen, and next week is irrelevant if the ABs win this week.

Australia will win.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Australia will win.

Like you were convinced NZ would win the Americas Cup ?? 

I picked oracle to win it if you noticed.

You called that from NZ being 8-1 up did you?
Seems you're not a world force in every sport then matey

Tman Strauss is no mug and Meyer might be holding Du Plessis back to unleash him against NZ. No point in using the dark side energy against Oz. Save his controlled aggression for the NZ game.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Tman Strauss is no mug and Meyer might be holding Du Plessis back to unleash him against NZ. No point in using the dark side energy against Oz. Save his controlled aggression for the NZ game.

Understand that but its still a risk. Too much is being said about DPs abilities. Hes a hooker. Albeit a very good player, but he seems to have donned superstar status overnight when its really all smokes and mirrors when considering those in the side not figuring at Eden park.

Best side available should play vs Oz and the only reson I reckon hes not playing vs Oz is theyre afraid he'll be carded again- probably admitting that he actually does have over aggressive and short sighted tendencies. 'Unleashing' him against NZ will go sour for him if hes lead to believe his masterful ability is being 'bottled up' for the ABs. Theyll handle him as well as anyone else on the day.

I wouldnt say he had controlled aggression as such.

One question about Eden park...did he establish first in his mind that he wasnt offside when he barrelled DC- ie did he have it clear in his mind that no ruck or maul had actually formed out to the right? Or did he just seize the opportunity to deck him regardless?

That answer will determine if his aggression is controlled or not. I reckon he didnt care if he was offside or not.

I think you are reaching taylorman.

Your reasoning is pure conjecture.

But I suppose if you want to believe he is an uncontrolled bundle of rage, then good luck with that.

Keiran read out if the Argentina game as illness again sweeps the All Blacks team. Messam will play 8 and luatua start. NZ are a reserve short after carrying McCaw, so Coles will start at hooker and hore will cover...

Biltong wrote:I think you are reaching taylorman.

Your reasoning is pure conjecture.

But I suppose if you want to believe he is an uncontrolled bundle of rage, then good luck with that.

Reading it like that perhaps a little harsh. Its more the imbalanced focus on the guy where at least 14 others need to front that I'm concerned about. He'll be watched as hes the hottest ref/ player topic going and he may even temper his 'nearly' on the edge style when thats exactly what the boks dont need.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Keiran read out if the Argentina game as illness again sweeps the All Blacks team. Messam will play 8 and luatua start. NZ are a reserve short after carrying McCaw, so Coles will start at hooker and hore will cover...

saw that...adds to Hansens risk taking Mccaw as passenger for the argie match.

For the first time I'd have to say we need Read more than McCaw. His presence and extremely high level of play worth more than McCaw these days. Sounds like a bug...and only Read has it...

If Messam is 8 and Luatua is 6 who is back row cover? McCaw?

Read will be needed for SA for sure. Would prefer to see Luatua for the SA match as well. Clear out in Auckland was poor.

Coles will be on the bench covering the loosies.

Think you are talking Love sacks about Du Plessis Taylorman - he's fine just had a bad luck game.

Time to move on chaps and get back to the rugby - lets try and win in Arg land first. With so many little problems its not a given. Though it probably is.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Tman Strauss is no mug and Meyer might be holding Du Plessis back to unleash him against NZ. No point in using the dark side energy against Oz. Save his controlled aggression for the NZ game.

Knowing Meyer's fairly strict team discipline, I wouldn't be surprised if Bismarck is being punished for getting carded (the 2nd card no doubt) by being benched. And it's nice for Meyer to know that in Strauss and Bissie he can replace like with like.

If Meyer is benching Bismarck for the second yellow then that is a great sign for you guys. I know some will disagree that it even exists, but weeding the odd brain fart resulting in YCs out of the SA game will be a big gain. We'd do well to do the same if they're silly and avoidable (Nonu). Depends on who the next opponent is of course.

BTW, should the title of the thread be changed to 'Springboks to smoke ABs at Ellis Park"?

Benching DP makes no sense at all. He received his punishment for the yellow and more so reasoning that Meyer is disciplining him is not smart thinking if thats true.

Its more important DP gets straight back on his bike and plays a good innings, settles back into the routine. 'Saving him' for the ABs just adds to the fire in my mind and could backfire when they just want the guy to be playing his best rugby. Its also a little disrespectful to the ozzies and could help to motivate them. Its a big test..best players should be on the field...when did that philosophy change?

Read is fit for the Argies

I think a stand down for bad behaviour is a reasonable response, IMO. Not that Bismarck did much wrong to deserve such treatment. But then again he did get sent off and cost them the game. Set a precedent regarding expectations. What's silly about that?

We've benched players that have acted up during the week (Jane or Dagg, I forget now), coaching 101 ain't it?

Maybe ebop...big call still and it could still backfire for both matches.

Been really impressed with Kirchner this season

Teams shouldn't be allowed to leave the second best player in their position on the bench

SA should give Bismark to someone else, same goes for NZ and Cruden

It's just not fair  

Can't believe SA are still 2 tries from a BP considering the first 20

This game has become incredibly dull

SA should have gotten a TBP out of that!

FDP looked shattered at the end and was barely making it to the rucks, surely Pienaar should have had the last 20?

Springboks looked good against a frankly limited Australia, but again poor discipline cost them the chance of a bonus point. But make no mistake this tournament is still alive anyway.

Du preez looked a little off the pace, his decision making was also a little suspect... Throwing high or to an isolated man.... It's not his job to back up carriers but he needs to be aware of things like this.

Well one things for sure. When the Boks choose to play 15 man rugby, theyre up there with the best. Then after 30 minutes the reversion to type, protecting the lead, kicking the ball etc, the well dired up.

I'll keep playing this broken record till the cows come home or until someone listens but that match illustrated the point perfectly. The Boks are losing matches they shouldnt because of ineffective backplay- and its through choice- not ability thats doing it.

FDP got them off to a perfect start and was clearing beautifully, one pass directly leading to the left hand try.

Then the sides need to protect the lead the only way they know how (close ball, kicks, box kicks etc)then relying on hoping the BP try will also come that way.

After Kirchners try there are two ways to make use of that lead- more of the same or protect it by closing the game down. The ABs would look at scoring another 2 or 3 exactly the same way to drive the advantage home while the iron is hot. The Boks choice to close it down is the difference between the attitude of the two sides in terms of the games philosophy.

The ozzies have just gone from bad to worse progressively all year. This is not the last loss for them this year and our thoughts have to go out to their fans whon were more familiar with the Eales, Gregan type eras with their side. Painful to see a once very proud side in such dismay and no idea how theyre going to resolve all of this.

ABs now know they must get the BP to make a last match loss bearable. For me theyre more likely to win the match if the series is on the line so in a way perhaps the BP might not be ideal. Winning all 6 for two straight years would have been considered nigh impossible beginng of 2012.

Thought SA were given a hand up with a lot of dubious yellow cards - with thatany handed out the scoring of four tries should've been a doddle. But there was again too much kicking away possession. 

Have to feel for Habana on that "advantage over...oh not it isn't" call.

yeah that was weird, but as we know refs are human to it seems. Terrible second half after the fireworks of the first. Next week fdp has to play 60 and go off. By then theyll need to be leading. Not too convinced about the Boks finishing after that one- however, altitude etc who knows...

anyway, good win...but no cigar...yet,

NZ anthem sung by an argie- interesting...

For the boks to win the trophy It would take their greatest ever performance in my book.

The last time a team scored 4, won the match and had a win margin of >7 was 6 years ago.... 3N 2008. Added to that it's only happened 3 times in professional rugby (1996>).

I think the boks should try and forget about the trophy until the last 20 mins of the match. Play their normal game, don't push it at all etc.

The last time a team go close was England last year when they missed the goal by 1 try. There they built a good try less lead up to halftime and that made NZ try and force things and it opened the game up.

NZ are not the type of side to say 'just stop them scoring 4 tries, even if we lose by 10 drop goals and 30 points' etc... There is a great deal of pride in that team and if they are being beaten by 15 points etc they will open up.

A good win is more important in my book then the trophy.... If it happens great but if they push the match too much and lose the game then it will waste all the progress they've made in the last 12 months.

NZ only know one way of winning- put the points on the board early and as many as possible- thats the only way a side can have the sort of % it does as it mitigates the risk of things that can go wrong later in the match- ref calls, cards, disallowed tries, unexpected brilliance from the other side or individuals.

Thats how NZ will approach next week- get SA first before they get us- remove the thought of winning either the tournament or the match from their minds as soon as possibe. To do that they need to attack them at full throttle. Saves all the stress and worry near the end of the match.

The reality is the Championship has been won.

We can lament Eden Park or ignore it, but the Championship was always going to come down to Eden Park and Ellispark.

The rest of the AB and SB matches were like for like.

Both earned 18 points from those four matches.

South Africa has managed to score 4 tries or more against NZ four times in the professional era, but only once did they manage to deny New Zealand a bonus point and that was in 2004.

For all intent and purposes the tournament is over, only the most optimistic would believe the tournament is still alive.

South Africa has now establshed themselves as the number two team in the world.

The next step now is to address their standing to become number one.

And that starts with beating the All Blacks this coming weekend. The focus must simply be to beat them.

That means they will have stoppoed the rot and losing streak of the past three years.

Nothing else matters.

What Meyer has shown this year is that we do not lack skills, contrary to what some have been commenting on here for the past few weeks.

Execution under pressure is something all teams struggle with from time to time.

Our mentality and psychological approach is what will now take us further.

We now have confirmation and belief that we are worthy of being the number two team in the world.

We have beaten England three times with one draw over the past two seasons and beaten Australia three to one over the past two seasons.

Now to work on the belief we can be number one, it all begins this Saturday.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Thought SA were given a hand up with a lot of dubious yellow cards - with thatany handed out the scoring of four tries should've been a doddle. But there was again too much kicking away possession. 

Have to feel for Habana on that "advantage over...oh not it isn't" call.

The only card that I thought was really deserved was Vermeulen's slap down, the rest were a bit soft: brings to mind P Divvy's talk about ballet.

Taylorman wrote:Well one things for sure. When the Boks choose to play 15 man rugby, theyre up there with the best. Then after 30 minutes the reversion to type, protecting the lead, kicking the ball etc, the well dired up.

I wonder whether the boks were surprised at the ease at which they dominated the first 20 mins. Then when Hooper was carded they thought to themselves: gee this is a doddle, and this taking the foot off the gas allowed the Aussies back into the game! Anyways, it was a bit disappointing to watch. I really thought, that after scoring a point a minute in the first 20 minutes, the boks were going to thrash the Aussies. However, it is a good sign, I suppose, that as a bok supporter I'm disappointed that we beat the no. 4 side in the world by only 20 points rather than 40!

Yeah Nigel Owens was a pain in the ass especially when he intervened to have an Aussie yellow carded for accidentally elbowing his own team mate. Just stupid officiating.

Reality is Oz have moved back into the pack and SA has nudged itself closer to the ABs. Confidence wise, NZ would back itself to get the 4 try and required win mainly because its largely the type of goal NZ sets itself for every match..to win convincingly by scoring tries- their gameplan is based on that kind of result in mind- every time they take the field. Its that kind of thinking the boks need to adopt, though actually doing it on a regular basis obviously helps.

Just think if NZ hadn't been denied their fourth try in the first match when Juan went unpunished for pulling back Ben smiths jersey, the tournament would be over.

Sad that NZ have been so unfairly hampered by lax refereeing.

It's a blessing GE. Much better to have something riding on this match. If DP had only received one yellow maybe we wouldn't have scored the 4 try bonus point. I know you're digging for the root there but the fact that this game is mathematically in the balance has done us a favour in the motivational stakes.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm putting £1000 on the Aussies.

How did that work out for you?