Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[beshocked]

TJ Edinburgh are a world class side aren't they?

[maestegmafia]

Also, when are the next FFR presidential elections? Is not Blanco, of very differing views to Camou, hotly tipped to win power?

Blanco wants clubs like RC Toulon's spending heavily controlled. He made a statement as such before. He thinks the French Club Rugby economy is about to fall apart.

[TJ]

TJ Edinburgh are a world class side aren't they?

Indeed - at playing blind mans buff and tiddlywinks. Unfortuatly they are supposed to be a rugby club :-(

[HammerofThunor]

A pot that they would then take the lions share of......................  Not that they actually have any product to sell nor any right to sell anything especially away games

Who says they sold away games? The reports that came out, some said games in England. Other said games involving the English teams. My guess? It was the English home games that they sold. As they're the ones that they belief got to them as part of the 2007 agreement with the RFU. The RFU believe they go to them. There's never been any suggestion that anyone else is annoyed by them selling their rights (except the ERC over the RFU ones).

[butterfingers]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

[Guest]

TJ Edinburgh are a world class side aren't they?

As is Newcastle  

[TJ]

The top half of the rabo is a match for the top half of the french or english leagues. Its the bottom of the Rabo where we find some weak teams but are Edinburgh any worse than the bottom of the jeff?

[Scrumpy]

TJ Edinburgh are a world class side aren't they?

As is Newcastle  

At least Newcastle have earned the right to sit at the top table of English rugby again, no HC places handed out to them just for turning up it has to be earned by building a team over a number of years like Exeter.

[beshocked]

butterfingers no one wants the unions to die out but then again we don't want the unions to have as much control as they do. It's too much.

Balance is needed.

[Guest]

TJ Edinburgh are a world class side aren't they?

As is Newcastle  

At least Newcastle have earned the right to sit at the top table of English rugby again, no HC places handed out to them just for turning up it has to be earned by building a team over a number of years like Exeter.

Sure why should they worry? Don't they get a nice handout anyway?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

[Scrumpy]

Hand out from who?

[beshocked]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

Well said. 

[ChequeredJersey]

Also, when are the next FFR presidential elections? Is not Blanco, of very differing views to Camou, hotly tipped to win power?

Blanco wants clubs like RC Toulon's spending heavily controlled. He made a statement as such before. He thinks the French Club Rugby economy is about to fall apart.

He's right

[maestegmafia]

butterfingers no one wants the unions to die out but then again we don't want the unions to have as much control as they do. It's too much.

Balance is needed.

Not necessarily true in all countries including your own. There are plenty of people critical of both sides in all countries involved.

The least so are the Irish.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

i never suggested or condone cheating or breaking the laws/rules. there is no "unwritten law of ethics" governing PRL/LNR looking our for another nation's Union.

[Guest]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

TJ, the French and English aren't one League though. The RABO are. The main issue for me is hat the RABO want participation and money to be split by country/union and the other two by League. Thus Franglos losing teams is not an issue but the fact that the RABO will still have more than either league will be a sticking point. In this case the French and English happen to kind of be the same side but it can only be a deliberate error to put them together when talking about the sharing of money, ERC votes or entrants- they are clearly separate entities. The RABO constituent Nations seem to want to be seen as the same entity in some contexts yet as separate Unions when it benefits them, and are equally as guilty of eating cake and having it at the same time as the French or English. I don't actually agree with, or approve of what the PRL are doing but this painting of them as the bad guys whilst ignoring the legitimate gripes they have and the hypocrisy of the RABO nations by a small number of posters is highly annoying. I wish I hadn't posted this as I don't want to get involved but the self-righteousness popping up on here is too much to allow to go without being commented upon

Simply, not true

[George Carlin]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

Right. By any chance, is your real name Mourad Boudjellal?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

the hypocrisy in this whole discussion is getting really irritating. of course this is all about greed.  PRL and LNR monetary greed - a.k.a maximising their p&L and looking after their shareholders. just like its also about Irish fan greed in wanting continued success in HC, Irish and Welsh Union greed in wanting to control their clubs/provinces/regions and retain and develop their own players. it's all about everyone's self interests and so it should be.

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

the final outcome will be determined by whose rugby models are the most sustainable financially WITHOUT Heineken Cup, as that is indubitably the strongest negotiating position. pretending otherwise is really dangerous, and probably why we are where we are today.

By your reasoning if we ever meet at the bottom of the ruck your eyesight is not of my concern, so I should have no problem whipping them out with my fingers? as your eyesight and I have no overlapping of interest?

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

Right. By any chance, is your real name Mourad Boudjellal?

Non!

[LordDowlais]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

[Notch]

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

Both parties have a common interest in a strong European competition, but they certainly want different things from that. What might be more pertinent is what BT Sport think about the SRU- they've just signed a major shirt sponsorship deal with the two Scottish pro teams. This is a way of anticipating Sky moving towards picking up more Pro12 games if BT get exclusive rights to the English clubs and therefore circumventing Skys ban on adverts for BT Sport- two teams in what may be the biggest club tier union competition Sky have left after this season have BT Sport ads blazoned across their jerseys. But even so, it pays for the Scottish clubs to be doing well and performing to big crowds as long as this sponsorship deal is in effect.

I think the PRL/LNR do care about having the others on board- they just want the other teams on less money, with less bargaining and no Unions getting in the way.

[Casartelli]

Also, when are the next FFR presidential elections? Is not Blanco, of very differing views to Camou, hotly tipped to win power?

Blanco wants clubs like RC Toulon's spending heavily controlled. He made a statement as such before. He thinks the French Club Rugby economy is about to fall apart.

I wouldn't mind reading more of that - Blanco has serious credentials and is an interesting character in the game, to say the least.

Can you post a link Maes?

[maestegmafia]

Also, when are the next FFR presidential elections? Is not Blanco, of very differing views to Camou, hotly tipped to win power?

Blanco wants clubs like RC Toulon's spending heavily controlled. He made a statement as such before. He thinks the French Club Rugby economy is about to fall apart.

He's right

Absolutely...!

Here's a link. It is worth a read. It shows the separation within the LNR between the wealthiest clubs and those struggling. There is little difference in England where lower, less wealthy English clubs feel that the PRL treat them very unfairly. A number of championship clubs are not happy with the PRLs stipulation on promotion and delegations as they favour elite clubs fare too much.


http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,9818_8803549,00.html

[Notch]

TJ, the French and English aren't one League though. The RABO are. The main issue for me is hat the RABO want participation and money to be split by country/union and the other two by League. Thus Franglos losing teams is not an issue but the fact that the RABO will still have more than either league will be a sticking point. In this case the French and English happen to kind of be the same side but it can only be a deliberate error to put them together when talking about the sharing of money, ERC votes or entrants- they are clearly separate entities. The RABO constituent Nations seem to want to be seen as the same entity in some contexts yet as separate Unions when it benefits them, and are equally as guilty of eating cake and having it at the same time as the French or English. I don't actually agree with, or approve of what the PRL are doing but this painting of them as the bad guys whilst ignoring the legitimate gripes they have and the hypocrisy of the RABO nations by a small number of posters is highly annoying. I wish I hadn't posted this as I don't want to get involved but the self-righteousness popping up on here is too much to allow to go without being commented upon

Simply, not true

Yeah this is crazy- why would I or other fans want us all to be lumped together? What I want is what's best for Irish Rugby- but I want to see strong sides across Europe for the wider good of the game.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

why should the PRL/LNR give two hoots about, for example, the SRU? they shouldnt as they have no overlap of common interests, and the same is equally true for the SRU caring about PRL/LNR.

Both parties have a common interest in a strong European competition, but they certainly want different things from that. What might be more pertinent is what BT Sport think about the SRU- they've just signed a major shirt sponsorship deal with the two Scottish pro teams. This is a way of anticipating Sky moving towards picking up more Pro12 games if BT get exclusive rights to the English clubs and therefore circumventing Skys ban on adverts for BT Sport- two teams in what may be the biggest club tier union competition Sky have left after this season have BT Sport ads blazoned across their jerseys. But even so, it pays for the Scottish clubs to be doing well and performing to big crowds as long as this sponsorship deal is in effect.

I think the PRL/LNR do care about having the others on board- they just want the other teams on less money, with less bargaining and no Unions getting in the way.

almost agree. i would say rather that both have a similar interest in getting the most for their members that they can from a european competition. and to the extent that great international participation brings more revenue to the table, then yes this is a common interest. but not necessarily.

didnt know about the BT deal. interesting. the landscape is very confusing with all these deals and tournaments, real and hypothetical! hard to see how a mediator is going to bring this all together.

[Scrumpy]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

[Biltong]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

[butterfingers]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

In their defence the Irish regularly turn out in bigger numbers than most AP clubs, Glasgow sell out at 6k each week, and the Italians are in development. It's the Welsh politics that are 'keeping fans away'

[TJ]

Here is a point. Its the opinion of many of us that the PRLs wished for European competition would be to the detriment of the smallest unions - especially the Scots and Italians. This would have a negative effect on these countries international teams. Is a devalued 6 N a price worth paying? who wants to see the calcutta cup being a walkover EVERY year? the Italians go back to never winning a game apart from occasionally beating scotland?

[Scrumpy]

Here is a point.  Its the opinion of many of us that the PRLs wished for European competition would be to the detriment of the smallest unions - especially the Scots and Italians.  This would have a negative effect on these countries international teams.  Is a devalued 6 N a price worth paying?  who wants to see the calcutta cup being a walkover EVERY year?  the Italians go back to never winning a game apart from occasionally beating scotland?

But why should English and French clubs be held back by the Scots and Italian Unions dragging their feet to develop the game in their Countries?

[HammerofThunor]

Also, when are the next FFR presidential elections? Is not Blanco, of very differing views to Camou, hotly tipped to win power?

Blanco wants clubs like RC Toulon's spending heavily controlled. He made a statement as such before. He thinks the French Club Rugby economy is about to fall apart.

He's right

Absolutely...!

Here's a link. It is worth a read. It shows the separation within the LNR between the wealthiest clubs and those struggling. There is little difference in England where lower, less wealthy English clubs feel that the PRL treat them very unfairly. A number of championship clubs are not happy with the PRLs stipulation on promotion and delegations as they favour elite clubs fare too much.


http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,9818_8803549,00.html

I call shenanigans. Lower, less wealthy english clubs not happy with the PRL? Provide a reference or you are quite simply lying. The lower clubs get more TV money to smooth out the fact they're getting less from the EPS agreement. They get an equal share of the TV money, as a baseline, as the top clubs. They get an equal share of European money even though several have little prospect of getting in (at the moment). They have aparachute payments if they get relegated. They set a salary cap most of the rich clubs want to extend.

So I'm calling you a liar, unless you can provide references.

[ChequeredJersey]

If I have misread the situation then I am sorry. I may have mistook the RABO nation's mutual cooperation for double standards, looking at what they doing further. However, the issue still remains that the current system is not meritocratic. However, my biggest worry is that any new Franglish Cup will negatively affect our national side and our world cup

[itsallabouttheincentives]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

the Italians go back to never winning a game apart from occasionally beating scotland ?

or Wales or Ireland or France?

[ChequeredJersey]

Here is a point.  Its the opinion of many of us that the PRLs wished for European competition would be to the detriment of the smallest unions - especially the Scots and Italians.  This would have a negative effect on these countries international teams.  Is a devalued 6 N a price worth paying?  who wants to see the calcutta cup being a walkover EVERY year?  the Italians go back to never winning a game apart from occasionally beating scotland?

But why should English and French clubs be held back by the Scots and Italian Unions dragging their feet to develop the game in their Countries?

Why are we offering the admittedly ideologically positive opportunity of club and national development to only Italy and Scotland? And, interestingly, this was "kind of " brought up on RTE by Horgan and Conor O'Shea

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/scotland-the-paupers-of-the-euro-debate/

[lostinwales]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

[TJ]

Portnoy - but without the players playing to flight rugby and with a smaller share of the pot they will regress. we will see the scots and the italian pro game wither and disappear- they will be forced to go semi pro / will be the poor relations never able to catch up. a healthy competative HC and 6N is essential for the good of the game

[Biltong]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

One thing I will categorically disagree with you on is that Club rugby in no way shape or form subsidises National teams.

[TJ]

Chequered - the Welsh and Irish would not be so strongly adversely affected but they would be by the PRL proposals.

[Scrumpy]

Which two Welsh Regions have shown interest in joining the The Rugby Champions Cup?

Any ideas?

[George Carlin]

Here is a point.  Its the opinion of many of us that the PRLs wished for European competition would be to the detriment of the smallest unions - especially the Scots and Italians.  This would have a negative effect on these countries international teams.  Is a devalued 6 N a price worth paying?  who wants to see the calcutta cup being a walkover EVERY year?  the Italians go back to never winning a game apart from occasionally beating scotland?

Correct. Like it or not, this is the point:
 
1. The wrangle over this new tournament is about the distribution of money.
 
2. The money is needed by the unions, not the professionals clubs. Without the unions, there is no professional game as there is no professional regulation.
 
3. This is why the number of 'leagues' we are talking about when considering distribution is utterly, plainly irrelevant. They are a synthetic construct that could be changed tomorrow if everyone agreed. The number of unions that any new European TV deal would be supporting is the important thing.
 
To try and pretend otherwise is disengenious. It would be very, very sad if the richest RFU in the world and the richest franchise league in the NH choose to cut a deal whose principal purpose is to keep a larger slice of the pie for themselves. Are people really falling back on the hoary old chestnut that 'it's not their job to give money to other unions'? What do you need more for, exactly? For survival? Or for international sportswear manufacturers to add a couple of cute new kiddy replica tops to your already enormous clothing ranges?
 
Makes me very sad. I have absolutely no problem with any organisation thinking that they would like a different tournament with a different organisation. It should be spoken about and discussed thoroughly to see what's achievable. But this is a democracy and there is still, thankfully, such a thing as due process.
 
What is not okay is trying to use the media circus to force people to abandon existing deals that were negotiated in good faith and on which a number of other people are relying. It's always ugly to watch the biggest kid in the playground throwing their weight around. Always. Not a personal criticism of any individual union or organisation, but bad behaviour is bad behaviour, regardless of how well intentioned.

[Guest]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

A tiny amount? Seem to remember reading that only the bottom 2 get less of the HEC share, and that the less isn't all that far off what the remaining 10 get, but I would need to have another look. Actually, I'm glad they get whatever they get.
As for your wee dig at the Rabo. You obviously don't watch it much, but true that not all games are spectacular affairs, but then some of the AP games I've watched are hardly easy on the eyes either.
Ok, you have a chip on your shoulder about automatic qualification for the Rabo teams. I can understand this in part, but it should be remembered that the English, and French, are guaranteed HEC participation year on year in what is a European competition. I believe every Union represented in the 6Ns should have at least one team represented in the HEC, and from what I'm reading I think this is an issue that the Rabo are prepared to compromise on. I think they should.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

One thing I will categorically disagree with you on is that Club rugby in no way shape or form subsidises National teams.

the Heineken Cup does. which is kind of the core unbridgeable gap for the luckless mediator.

[HammerofThunor]

It doesn't really. As far as I'm aware all of the unions that get money from the HEC given more than they get to the teams in it. So it subsidises the teams in it.

[LordDowlais]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

Well what else are their motives then ?

[fa0019]

I do think people look at the past in a too idealistic light.

Back in the day, clubs were just as polarised as before in terms of being able to recruit the best players.... but in those days things like wages were done so indirectly.

Clubs like bath had a lot of old school networks and were able to get the best jobs available for their players, one which would maximise their salaries and minimise their working commitments allowing them to play as much rugby as possible. For instance I recall a lot of players working for British Gas at the time in PR roles for instance.
Yes the had an academy but half their players came from other clubs/regions etc but they were known for being able to secure excellent jobs for their players.

Now the club has lost that edge so too has its competitiveness on the pitch.

Regions such as East Province in SA have always been a huge area of player depth but given most people flocked to Jo'burg and Cape Town for work as adults then EP lost shed loads of players and did worse then they would have done had they been able to keep their players.

Have a look at Craven week results for instance.. WP wipes the floor with everyone at every age group. The bulls are terrible compared. Yet the bulls have a good franchise, a big fan base and can recruit the best players from all over SA. It happened in the past, it happens now... its just that only a few sides have been able to keep their superiorituy in both the amateur and the pro eras.

[Scrumpy]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

A tiny amount? Seem to remember reading that only the bottom 2 get less of the HEC share, and that the less isn't all that far off what the remaining 10 get, but I would need to have another look. Actually, I'm glad they get whatever they get.
As for your wee dig at the Rabo. You obviously don't watch it much, but true that not all games are spectacular affairs, but then some of the AP games I've watched are hardly easy on the eyes either.
Ok, you have a chip on your shoulder about automatic qualification for the Rabo teams. I can understand this in part, but it should be remembered that the English, and French, are guaranteed HEC participation year on year in what is a European competition. I believe every Union represented in the 6Ns should have at least one team represented in the HEC, and from what I'm reading I think this is an issue that the Rabo are prepared to compromise on. I think they should.

I've watched lots of Rabo games thanks, in the flesh too as I lived just outside Cardiff for a few years but I'm not a fan of it. On paper some of the games look great but once you see the team sheet it's a bit of a let down.

Since when is wanting teams to earn the right to be in the HC mean I have a chip on my shoulder?

Very strange response!

[TJ]

The SRU use some of the HC money lower down the tiers of the game I think

[Notch]

Very rugby thought process mate, in a game that holds morals and an unwritten law of ethics you'd prefer to let unions die out.

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

I think a future of independent rich clubs arguing their 'assets' need to be held back from the international game because, after all, they are being paid for by the clubs is the end game of the running of the club and international game separately. The international game which is the cash cow for developing rugby world wide will take a hit- the IRB and their regulations are whats standing in the way of that and the IRB are the Unions. Their authority comes from the Unions, so taking the Unions out of European rugby altogether will only accelerate our progress down that road and set the scene for more long, prolonged club vs. country conflicts.

Sure, it's great for a few people- but most fans world wide will end up seeing the sport wither in their countries and the rugby world in general will be a poorer place. But isn't that the end game of the free market in general? Some people do exceptionally well whilst everything slowly gets worse and worse for the vast majority of people... an unsustainable model in other words.

If you suggest the vast majority of rugby fans worldwide should support a future of club rugby that doesn't involve the oversight of the Unions, I honestly will never agree with you. For the average fan in the stand, some regulation can guarantee a more vibrant and exciting game and that regulation comes from Unions.

Regulations on how much clubs can spend on salaries mean one or two sides can't just buy their way to victory ensuring a less predictable and more exciting tournament. Restrictions on how many foreign players can take the field ensure that sides need to concentrate on discovering, nurturing and developing local talent as well as bringing players in from outside- which then pays off for the international sides down the line. Making sure the pot of TV money is meted out equally means the difference in budget between the richest and poorest isn't allowed to grow too big- meaning there will always be more chances of upsets, more teams that are genuinely competitive and more incentive for fans to support their team. More fans who can realistically say "Maybe this is our year" each year because the playing field stays level.

I think the Pro12 nations certainly need to make compromises on some of the much discussed issues and a new deal needs to be ironed out by all parties- but allowing the PRL and LNR to break away entirely from the oversight of their Unions would also be problematic for the future of the game. They need their place at the table, but so do the Unions; to ensure that club and international rugby can enjoy a symbiotic relationship not an adversarial one.

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