Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[lostinwales]

No - the second tier / amlin will always be the poor relation.  would you be happy if you wer told that 3 of the 6 teams the prl have in the top rank will be put in the second with no chance of getting back up?

But its not just this - its also the money.  the BT deal will allow the rich to become richer thus again making it harder for the lessor teams to compete adn they will be pried out of the market.  

1) All you have to do to get into the tier 1 is qualify from your league. Its not a 'no change of getting back up' thing - all you have to do is get stronger relative to your own league.

2) As has been pointed out several times (not just by me I'd add) the PRL have the BT agreement now for their domestic league. The increase in money they earn from that is significantly greater than the increase they would get if the BT get the european games. In other words the PRL are getting richer independently of the euro situation

[nth]

I would stilllike someone to provide a logial reason why any reduction should all come from four countries and none from the two with the most representation?.  If the cup needs to go to 20 teams why must it be 6/6/6 +2.  why not 5/5/8+2 or 6/6/8?

Personally I'd prefer 6/6/8, but I'd imagine part of the reasoning for 6/6/6 +2 is performance based.

PRO12 teams were the bottom side in 5 of the 6 pools last season.  They occupied 8 of the bottom 12 spots.  3 of those sides failed to win a single game, 1 of them failed to gain a single point.

[TJ]

No english or french club is handing over any money. stop making stuff up. Without the rabo teams you have no european cup and thus no income from it

I have accepted the need for a reduction in the rabo teams thus qualification. Just not the 40% cut that the prl demand.

How about this. The Rabo teams have been winning the HC so the PRL want to change the rules to make it harder for them to win while at the same time taking a larger slice of the profits making it harder for the Rabo teams to be competative. this under the threat of taking their ball away. hardly fair is it?

[TJ]

No - the second tier / amlin will always be the poor relation.  would you be happy if you wer told that 3 of the 6 teams the prl have in the top rank will be put in the second with no chance of getting back up?

But its not just this - its also the money.  the BT deal will allow the rich to become richer thus again making it harder for the lessor teams to compete adn they will be pried out of the market.  

1) All you have to do to get into the tier 1 is qualify from your league. Its not a 'no change of getting back up' thing - all you have to do is get stronger relative to your own league.

2) As has been pointed out several times (not just by me I'd add) the PRL have the BT agreement now for their domestic league. The increase in money they earn from that is significantly greater than the increase they would get if the BT get the european games. In other words the PRL are getting richer independently of the euro situation

so with only 6 clubs from the rabo in the euro cup and one place for each nation there would only be two places for the remaining 8 to fight over.  the teams who did not get into the top tier would not have the financial clout to compete and would have lost thier best players - result it would be very hard to get one of those 2 places.  this is why 8 rabo teams must be a bottom line.

[Scrumpy]

No english or french club is handing over any money.  stop making stuff up.  Without the rabo teams you have no european cup and thus no income from it

I have accepted the need for a reduction in the rabo teams thus qualification.  Just not the 40% cut that the prl demand.

How about this.  The Rabo teams have been winning the HC so the PRL want to change the rules to make it harder for them to win while at the same time taking a larger slice of the profits making it harder for the Rabo teams to be competative.  this under the threat of taking their ball away. hardly fair is it?

 
 
 
Now whos making stuff up?
 

[Scrumpy]

               

[TJ]

That bit in bold is exactly what has happened.

[Scrumpy]

    

The deal on the table will benefit everyone, people pick and choose what to believe when they fear change.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I would stilllike someone to provide a logial reason why any reduction should all come from four countries and none from the two with the most representation?.  If the cup needs to go to 20 teams why must it be 6/6/6 +2.  why not 5/5/8+2 or 6/6/8?

Personally I'd prefer 6/6/8, but I'd imagine part of the reasoning for 6/6/6 +2 is performance based.

PRO12 teams were the bottom side in 5 of the 6 pools last season.  They occupied 8 of the bottom 12 spots.  3 of those sides failed to win a single game, 1 of them failed to gain a single point.

Bit dangerous to judge and structure on the basis of a single season - perhaps the average over the last 5 or 7 might be more instructive?

[beshocked]

No english or french club is handing over any money.  stop making stuff up.  Without the rabo teams you have no european cup and thus no income from it

I have accepted the need for a reduction in the rabo teams thus qualification.  Just not the 40% cut that the prl demand.

How about this.  The Rabo teams have been winning the HC so the PRL want to change the rules to make it harder for them to win while at the same time taking a larger slice of the profits making it harder for the Rabo teams to be competative.  this under the threat of taking their ball away. hardly fair is it?

 
 
 
Now whos making stuff up?
 

I agree this is quite funny. Didn't realise you were a Leinster or Munster fan TJ.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

On another matter, do you think that Richie Gray, Tom Heathcote, Kelly Brown (and others) playing away hinders the Scottish international team, or improves it by broadening their experience?

for some its been good, for some its been bad.  a short stint works well but we have seen first choice scotland players sitting on the bench for english clubs - thats not helpful.

I was going to make the point that you seem to be predicting an exodus of Scottish internationals and then leap to predicting the demise of the International team, but I've re-read and now understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're predicting the demise due to lack of player development opportunities at Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Personally, I doubt that there would be an exodus much greater than there is currently - but I understand your fears. However, if it does occur, I don't see that player development would be significantly hindered.

Putting hordes of youngsters into the first teams may well affect the results in Pro12 and HC/Amlin adversely, but they'll sink or swim and some will improve dramatically. Two seasons ago, Wasps were crippled by retirements and long term injuries (and lack of money) but they threw youngsters like Wade and Launchbury into their AP and Amlin teams. They just avoided relegation and now Wade is a Lion and Launchbury probably one of England's first choice locks. Without wishing to appear flippant, there is no relegation in Pro12, nor, as far as can be understood, Amlinv2.

[TJ]

Beshocked - my post ws merely showintthe opposite point of view to this nonsense.

I'll tell you what you sit at home and I'll send you 40% of my wages.

That doesn't seem fair or right does it?

Yet you expect English and French clubs to hand over money to weaker teams and then have to earn the right to be in the HC whilst those teams get given HC places for free!

That doesn't seem fair or right, does it?

Truth is relative depending where you stand and it is obvious from here that the PRL proposals are indeed all about

The Rabo teams have been winning the HC so the PRL want to change the rules to make it harder for them to win while at the same time taking a larger slice of the profits making it harder for the Rabo teams to be competative. this under the threat of taking their ball away. hardly fair is it?

[TJ]

dubbleyew - but also the players would be exposed to less top flight rugby and we would have less money in relation to the english clubs How would wasps have coped if they were relegated as well?

[Scrumpy]

some people can't see past the ends of their noses.

[Exiledinborders]

I would stilllike someone to provide a logial reason why any reduction should all come from four countries and none from the two with the most representation?.  If the cup needs to go to 20 teams why must it be 6/6/6 +2.  why not 5/5/8+2 or 6/6/8?

Try these on for size:

• Because only roughly 50% of English and French professional clubs qualify (actually 25% if you count the second tier of professional clubs) whereas either 75% or 100% of Rabo teams qualify depending on country.
  
• Because on a population basis England and France are relatively under represented at the moment. For instance six teams from England v three from Wales when England has sixteen times the population.
  
• Because the vast majority of viewers watching on TV are from England and France and reducing teams from those countries would reduce the value of the competition.
  

And most importantly

• Because on a Rugby basis the third and fourth from bottom teams of the Rabo are generally of a lower standard than the sixth place teams from the AP or the Top14
  

[beshocked]

TJ no it's just two Pro12 sides who are a particularly big threat in the HC - Munster and Leinster.

They've done well. Fair play to them but I think the likes of Saints,Sarries and Leicester will be a strong challenge for any Pro12 side in the HC this season.

Especially my side because of the easiest HC group.


Relegation can actually help sides - it helped both Saints and Quins rebuild and bounce back.

[beshocked]

I would stilllike someone to provide a logial reason why any reduction should all come from four countries and none from the two with the most representation?.  If the cup needs to go to 20 teams why must it be 6/6/6 +2.  why not 5/5/8+2 or 6/6/8?

Personally I'd prefer 6/6/8, but I'd imagine part of the reasoning for 6/6/6 +2 is performance based.

PRO12 teams were the bottom side in 5 of the 6 pools last season.  They occupied 8 of the bottom 12 spots.  3 of those sides failed to win a single game, 1 of them failed to gain a single point.

Well said. 

[markb]

No - the second tier / amlin will always be the poor relation.  would you be happy if you wer told that 3 of the 6 teams the prl have in the top rank will be put in the second with no chance of getting back up?

But its not just this - its also the money.  the BT deal will allow the rich to become richer thus again making it harder for the lessor teams to compete adn they will be pried out of the market.  

1) All you have to do to get into the tier 1 is qualify from your league. Its not a 'no change of getting back up' thing - all you have to do is get stronger relative to your own league.

2) As has been pointed out several times (not just by me I'd add) the PRL have the BT agreement now for their domestic league. The increase in money they earn from that is significantly greater than the increase they would get if the BT get the european games. In other words the PRL are getting richer independently of the euro situation

so with only 6 clubs from the rabo in the euro cup and one place for each nation there would only be two places for the remaining 8 to fight over.  the teams who did not get into the top tier would not have the financial clout to compete and would have lost thier best players - result it would be very hard to get one of those 2 places.  this is why 8 rabo teams must be a bottom line.

The 'participation payments' are not based on what European tier you play in.

PRO12 European success would see 8 sides qualify.  There would be 3 spaces to fight over dependent on who won the HC and another additional space if a side won the Amlin.


Regarding your earlier comments about the Franglos getting more money, yes they would compared to what they earn now, but that would be bringing them into line with the other nations on a per club participation basis.  Currently English clubs earn less per game in Europe than they do in the poorly supported LV Cup.  The decision has been made that with probably only 4 particularly competitve pool matches for each team in the current HC and only 2 competitive pool matches in the current Amlin, it's not particularly worth the while of all the Premiership clubs as a whole.  If a better deal or new European cup can't be negotiated then the clubs would be financially better off organising more Premiership games or a domestic cup.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

dubbleyew - but also the players would be exposed to less top flight rugby and we would have less money in relation to the english clubs  How would wasps have coped if they were relegated as well?

Pro12 is top flight rugby, Amlin isn't but it can be comparable to mid/lower league games. On another thread, it was pointed out that Sarries' Amlin pool 3 seasons ago included Toulon and Castres - the following season Sarries were English champions and now Castres are French champions and Toulon are European champions. (I don't ascribe their subsequent success entirely to the Amlin, but it didn't seem to harm them significantly)

If Wasps were relegated, they probably would have folded due to lack of money. Newcastle were relegated and are now back in Prem, thanks to financial support from their owner (and the parachute payment). Relegation is a far graver matter to the team in every respect than the position that Glasgow and Edinburgh might find themselves in with the PRL proposals, but it's only one team out of 12 so the overall consequences to England are mitigated.

[Pot Hale]

Try these on for size:

• Because only roughly 50% of English and French professional clubs qualify (actually 25% if you count the second tier of professional clubs) whereas either 75% or 100% of Rabo teams qualify depending on country.
  
• Because on a population basis England and France are relatively under represented at the moment. For instance six teams from England v three from Wales when England has sixteen times the population.
  
• Because the vast majority of viewers watching on TV are from England and France and reducing teams from those countries would reduce the value of the competition.
  

And most importantly

• Because on a Rugby basis the third and fourth from bottom teams of the Rabo are generally of a lower standard than the sixth place teams from the AP or the Top14
  

Hmmm. The percentage from each country argument is a bit flawed. If currently, it is 50%, 50%, 75% or 100% from the various six nations, what are you proposing should replace it - 50% guaranteed from England and France, and what percentage guarantees are there for the PRO 12 countries?

If you get into comparing populations, then how do you square Italy, which has a population of 60 odd million. Are they under-represented?

Reducing teams from England and France would reduce the value the competition; whereas reducing teams from other countries wouldn't. Really?

The third and fourth from bottom PRO12 teams are generally of a lower standard than the sixth place teams from the AP or Top 14. So teams such as Ulster, Treviso, Connacht, Dragons, Cardiff, Glasgow, Ospreys, Edinburgh in the PRO12 are generally of a lower standard on a "rugby basis" than the sixth placed team in the AP such as Exeter, Sale Sharks, London Irish, Gloucester, Harlequins?

[Artful_Dodger]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

How? Surely if there is no new competition the deal with BT to show a new competition falls through as there is no new competition? I very much doubt that any money the English clubs get from BT showing the Aviva is going to amount to more than they were getting from the Aviva AND the HC? So surely if the English are only in the Aviva (and LV) next season the PRL will have greatly reduced the amount of money coming into the English game with this move?

[TJ]

When the HC was set up Scotland had more than two clubs playing in it. WE could easily make two more pro clubs and then we would have 50% of our clubs playing in it.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

How?  Surely if there is no new competition the deal with BT to show a new competition falls through as there is no new competition?  I very much doubt that any money the English clubs get from BT showing the Aviva is going to amount to more than they were getting from the Aviva AND the HC?  So surely if the English are only in the Aviva (and LV) next season the PRL will have greatly reduced the amount of money coming into the English game with this move?

ok, for the sake of argument, using your supposition, lets say the english clubs get a bit less for AP from BT then they were getting last season for AP + HC. and they are getting £400k per club for HC so its going to be somewhere between £400k per club less and no less. the english clubs will be in far far better shape than those celtic clubs left in the (new sponsor needed) rabo12 and (new sponsor needed) heineken cup with only the rab12 in. HC money accounts for 25-50% avg of total budgets for rabo12 clubs. would be a devastating loss.

[broadlandboy]

IIRC it was stated that the new BT deal for the Aviva covered what the PRL teams got from the previous Aviva/europe deals. It goes to show how little the PRL teams got from participating in Europe

[itsallabouttheincentives]

i thought you said the SRU has no money?

[TJ]

Tehy would be rubbish.  But it could be done.  we adjusted our structure to suit the cross border structure - and now we are penalised for it?  ridiculous argument.  I have more sympathy with the  "quality" arguemnt but really do sale have more to bring that Edinburgh?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

When the HC was set up Scotland had more than two clubs playing in it.  WE could easily make two more pro clubs and then we would have 50% of our clubs playing in it.

What league would they play in - this additional two McSides?

[TJ]

Dunno - but if 50% of eligible sides is the qualification criteria then we could find somewhere.

[Artful_Dodger]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

How?  Surely if there is no new competition the deal with BT to show a new competition falls through as there is no new competition?  I very much doubt that any money the English clubs get from BT showing the Aviva is going to amount to more than they were getting from the Aviva AND the HC?  So surely if the English are only in the Aviva (and LV) next season the PRL will have greatly reduced the amount of money coming into the English game with this move?

ok, for the sake of argument, using your supposition, lets say the english clubs get a bit less for AP from BT then they were getting last season for AP + HC. and they are getting £400k per club for HC so its going to be somewhere between £400k per club less and no less. the english clubs will be in far far better shape than those celtic clubs left in the (new sponsor needed) rabo12 and (new sponsor needed) heineken cup with only the rab12 in. HC money accounts for 25-50% avg of total budgets for rabo12 clubs. would be a devastating loss.

So in answer to my question - Yes there will be less money coming into the English game after the PRL's move. As for your figures on the HC income for Rabo teams. They are way off. I posted statistics on here not that long ago which showed about 75% of the IRFU's money came from the international game. (It was from the IRFU website if I recall). I would say at best about 15% - 20% of the IRFU's money comes from the HC, especially now that there is more money coming in from Sky showing the Rabo.

[Artful_Dodger]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

How?  Surely if there is no new competition the deal with BT to show a new competition falls through as there is no new competition?  I very much doubt that any money the English clubs get from BT showing the Aviva is going to amount to more than they were getting from the Aviva AND the HC?  So surely if the English are only in the Aviva (and LV) next season the PRL will have greatly reduced the amount of money coming into the English game with this move?

ok, for the sake of argument, using your supposition, lets say the english clubs get a bit less for AP from BT then they were getting last season for AP + HC. and they are getting £400k per club for HC so its going to be somewhere between £400k per club less and no less. the english clubs will be in far far better shape than those celtic clubs left in the (new sponsor needed) rabo12 and (new sponsor needed) heineken cup with only the rab12 in. HC money accounts for 25-50% avg of total budgets for rabo12 clubs. would be a devastating loss.

Also are you seriously saying that the English clubs only made £2.4m from the HC last season (6 teams x the £400k you claim) That sounds ludicrous.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Tehy would be rubbish.  But it could be done.  we adjusted our structure to suit the cross border structure - and now we are penalised for it?  ridiculous argument.  I have more sympathy with the  "quality" arguemnt but really do sale have more to bring that Edinburgh?  

They've got Danny Cipriani  

[TJ]

Yup - it is nonsense. they would have got more like 10 million twice the 5 million the scots got. thatshow the % play out. Or did the RFU keep the money?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

if ireland had 6 sides, wales 6 sides, scotland 4 sides and italy 2 sides in the rabo, then i am sure 9 HC slots based on qualifying would be fine.

[TJ]

so 3 less english and french clubs then?  
We built our structures to fit the HC. Now you want to use the fact we have structure that works as an excuse to handicap us? WE set up the euro cup against english opposition remember and the english joined later.the English league could easily have gone to 10 teams ring-fenced.

[broadlandboy]

People seem to think that there is only one european competition,which is understandable when their team has automatic entry into the HEC & not competed in the Amlin

[broadlandboy]

TJ by your figures £10 million divided by 12 PRL teams competing in Europe
£5 million divided by 2 scotish teams is 3 times as much as the PRL teams.

[stub]

The extract below is from ESPN. It looks like Goze is determined to push things rapidly to the end game...

But Goze is standing firm and is adamant his organisation will not return to the negotiating table. Goze told AFP: "I totally exclude returning to negotiations, they have failed for fifteen months, they will not come to a resolution in a fortnight. There are contracts that have been signed by various parties that mean there are no opportunities (for reconciliation).

"Creating a new competition will help us out of the trap which we have been in for several months. It is not just a desire to carry out a coup."

And despite ERC drafting in an external mediator to help with the negotiations, Canadian Graham Mew, Goze is adamant any chance of compromise has now passed.

"The mediator can't change the fact that contracts are signed," added Goze. "He may be able to mediate on the organisation of the competition, but with regards to the fundamental problem of this competition, we have passed the stage of negotiation. We have reached a dead end and we must find a way out. If we do not take the initiative, he will not. "

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199545.html

[itsallabouttheincentives]

y'all made your beds together, keeping your HC auto-qualification and reducing your domestic competitions. you have been having your cake and eating it for 10 years. and also eating quite a lot of the PRL/LNR's cake too. And they have been unhappy with the arrangement for a long time. So...

they have gone out and sourced a bigger cake-maker and they have the knife. you can have a big piece of the new cake or the leftovers of the old one?

[alcoombe]

so 3 less english and french clubs then?   
We built our structures to fit the HC.  Now you want to use the fact we have  structure that works as an excuse to handicap us?  WE set up the euro cup against english opposition remember and the english joined later.the English league could easily have gone to 10 teams ring-fenced.

Scottish sides joined a year late along with the English, neither the SRU or RFU would permit their sides to enter in 1995.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The extract below is from ESPN. It looks like Goze is determined to push things rapidly to the end game...

But Goze is standing firm and is adamant his organisation will not return to the negotiating table. Goze told AFP: "I totally exclude returning to negotiations, they have failed for fifteen months, they will not come to a resolution in a fortnight. There are contracts that have been signed by various parties that mean there are no opportunities (for reconciliation).

"Creating a new competition will help us out of the trap which we have been in for several months. It is not just a desire to carry out a coup."

And despite ERC drafting in an external mediator to help with the negotiations, Canadian Graham Mew, Goze is adamant any chance of compromise has now passed.

"The mediator can't change the fact that contracts are signed," added Goze. "He may be able to mediate on the organisation of the competition, but with regards to the fundamental problem of this competition, we have passed the stage of negotiation. We have reached a dead end and we must find a way out. If we do not take the initiative, he will not. "

wait, what happened to all those "statutory powers" FFR have to compel LNR not only back to the ERC table but also to make a deal? ah yes, they only exist on rugby fora, not in reality.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

dubbleyew - but also the players would be exposed to less top flight rugby and we would have less money in relation to the english clubs  How would wasps have coped if they were relegated as well?

Pro12 is top flight rugby, Amlin isn't but it can be comparable to mid/lower league games. On another thread, it was pointed out that Sarries' Amlin pool 3 seasons ago included Toulon and Castres - the following season Sarries were English champions and now Castres are French champions and Toulon are European champions. (I don't ascribe their subsequent success entirely to the Amlin, but it didn't seem to harm them significantly)

If Wasps were relegated, they probably would have folded due to lack of money. Newcastle were relegated and are now back in Prem, thanks to financial support from their owner (and the parachute payment). Relegation is a far graver matter to the team in every respect than the position that Glasgow and Edinburgh might find themselves in with the PRL proposals, but it's only one team out of 12 so the overall consequences to England are mitigated.

Dub, that's an interesting point - so the fact that Sarries are backed by the millions of Wray and his South African chums, and that Toulon are bank-rolled to a colllossal sum by Monsieur Boudjellal (sp?), had nothing to do with their subsequent success, it was all down to their Amlin stint?!?! The Wasps situation is far more pertinent to the case of Glasgow and Embra - consider that due to financial circumstances (mismanagement if you like), the Scots have already lost half of the pro-district teams that they started out with (Caledonian Reds and the Border Rievers, despite two attempts with the latter) post professionalism. Surely you can see that with RELATIVE finances more tight for the Scots clubs as the PRL get a vastly increased share of the cake, with one side likely in the Amlin, the value of that club to potential sponsors will wither as the standard of competition they play in is no longer 'top flight', they won't be able to afford to secure/keep hold of certain players (too expensive), their performances will suffer ... its a downhill spiral potentially

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

From:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/new-european-rugby-tournament-open-6076159

"Last season, adding in meritocracy payments based on performance, the split of revenue was as follows:

France £10.2m, England £9.1m, Ireland £5.53m, Wales £4.11m, Scotland £4.11m, Italy £3.86m."

So the English clubs would lose around £750k each from central distribution, but also the income from home games and sponsorship, corporate etc from HC contenders would be reduced - not sure that Amlin in its current form enhances the sponsorship etc, and certainly reduces bums on seats.

[TJ]

More nonsense. You need to look into this and learn a bit more about the french set up.
Now you need to put up of shut up. You claimed th e PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

put up or shut up.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

"Last season, adding in meritocracy  payments based on performance,  the split of revenue was as follows:

France £10.2m, England £9.1m,  Ireland £5.53m, Wales £4.11m,  Scotland £4.11m, Italy £3.86m."

So the English clubs would lose around £750k each from central distribution, but also the income from home games and sponsorship, corporate etc from HC contenders would be reduced - not sure that Amlin in its current form enhances the sponsorship etc, and certainly reduces bums on seats.

[/quote]the guarantee pre-performance payouts is £400k per english team (in HC and amlin) and £1.2m for zebre for example. see Connor O'Shea (quins director of rugby) explaining the figures on an RTE youtube interview. i cant attach. its on youtube.

[maestegmafia]

The extract below is from ESPN. It looks like Goze is determined to push things rapidly to the end game...

But Goze is standing firm and is adamant his organisation will not return to the negotiating table. Goze told AFP: "I totally exclude returning to negotiations, they have failed for fifteen months, they will not come to a resolution in a fortnight. There are contracts that have been signed by various parties that mean there are no opportunities (for reconciliation).

"Creating a new competition will help us out of the trap which we have been in for several months. It is not just a desire to carry out a coup."

And despite ERC drafting in an external mediator to help with the negotiations, Canadian Graham Mew, Goze is adamant any chance of compromise has now passed.

"The mediator can't change the fact that contracts are signed," added Goze. "He may be able to mediate on the organisation of the competition, but with regards to the fundamental problem of this competition, we have passed the stage of negotiation. We have reached a dead end and we must find a way out. If we do not take the initiative, he will not. "

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199545.html

What Contracts?

[munkian]

Heino Pro 12.....love it.

[broadlandboy]

Seems that the LNR have stateded their position
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199545.html

[itsallabouttheincentives]

More nonsense.  You need to look into this and learn a bit more about the french set up.
Now you need to put up of shut up.  You claimed th e PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not.  I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

put up or shut up.

now now calm down. as i said, PRL/LNR dont need to compromise. your "details" were fluff and nothingness.

[stub]

I wasn't sure what he meant by that either. (contracts)

[HammerofThunor]

I'm guessing it's the two TV deals.

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