Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

It doesn't really. As far as I'm aware all of the unions that get money from the HEC given more than they get to the teams in it. So it subsidises the teams in it.

those monies are given to provinces with strict conditions of retention of national players and amounts of rest etc around international tournaments and commitments. all of which is designed to promote the national team (which is more obviously the area of Union competence). i will admit that its not as simple as HC money staying in Union coffers, but given that they control and own the regions, you have to look at what that money is used for, in my opinion.

[Notch]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

One thing I will categorically disagree with you on is that Club rugby in no way shape or form subsidises National teams.

the Heineken Cup does. which is kind of the core unbridgeable gap for the luckless mediator.

Bollox. The international game in Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy subsidises the club game not the other way around. The international game is the economic engine of the game worldwide. Not to say the loss of income from European competition wouldn't hurt those Unions, it would, but the weakening of international rugby would destroy them hence the desire to curb the power of the clubs- most of the Unions negotiating position is about preserving international rugby and thats what the fans want.

[TJ]

In Scotland the income from all the competitions is used by the union to support all levels of the game. The pro teams get a budget from the SRUs income.

[HammerofThunor]

The SRU use some of the HC money lower down the tiers of the game I think

The Scottish teams have a salary budget of about £4M per year. The SRU get less than £8M from the ERC and PRO12. Now you might say that the money from the SRU to their teams is made up of the ERC money and International money and then some ERC money and international money goes into grass roots. But that's a cowpat semantic argument. The ERC generates less money to the unions than the unions give their teams. Therefore the ERC money is only used for the teams in it (and if they're not doing that, and shuffling money around all of the place they should be sacked for being stupid).

[TJ]

Hammer - and the pro teams also generate money in sponsership and gate receipts.

[gregortree]

So motivation should be nationalism first and foremost ? Just asking.
Which leads to another question:
Which comes first - your love of rugby - or love of your nation ?
And remember what Oscar had to say about patriotism.

[HammerofThunor]

What exactly is the fear here? And a mean specifically rather than the Pinky and the Brain theories of World Domination.

Let's say right now an agreement is reached where all revenue from the ERC (let's call them that for simplicity) is split equally based on participation in either European competition. All teams get the same regardless which one they're in. Let's say the votes are split based on the same split, let's say 36 votes, each team has one.

Now let's also say that those teams can (of course) choose who represents them and who they give their money to (they may keep it or give it the unions to give back to them).

What exactly does people think will happen? Leicester will be getting the same money as Edinburgh. Toulon will be getting the same as Treviso. Have it so you need something like a 75% majority to call major issues and have a deal that runs for X number of years before it has to be ratified by the unions again.

Now as far as I can tell that tallies up with what the PRL and LNR want. So where could this take us that is such a risk to the unions?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

One thing I will categorically disagree with you on is that Club rugby in no way shape or form subsidises National teams.

the Heineken Cup does. which is kind of the core unbridgeable gap for the luckless mediator.

Bollox. The international game in Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy subsidises the club game not the other way around. The international game is the economic engine of the game worldwide. Not to say the loss of income from European competition wouldn't hurt those Unions, it would, but the weakening of international rugby would destroy them hence the desire to curb the power of the clubs- most of the Unions negotiating position is about preserving international rugby and thats what the fans want.

in Ireland, Scotland and Italy the economics of the international and club games are one and the same given the ownership structure of clubs/provinces/regions. and as net beneficiaries from HC, the unions of these nations (and hence the overall goals for their national team) are receiving an net economic benefit from a club competition.

[HammerofThunor]

Hammer - and the pro teams also generate money in sponsership and gate receipts.

so are you saying the Scottish teams are able to run a £4M salary cap without international money? If they are get their financial teams to Wales because they're running at £3.5M cap with £1.5M each from the union.

[Guest]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

A tiny amount? Seem to remember reading that only the bottom 2 get less of the HEC share, and that the less isn't all that far off what the remaining 10 get, but I would need to have another look. Actually, I'm glad they get whatever they get.
As for your wee dig at the Rabo. You obviously don't watch it much, but true that not all games are spectacular affairs, but then some of the AP games I've watched are hardly easy on the eyes either.
Ok, you have a chip on your shoulder about automatic qualification for the Rabo teams. I can understand this in part, but it should be remembered that the English, and French, are guaranteed HEC participation year on year in what is a European competition. I believe every Union represented in the 6Ns should have at least one team represented in the HEC, and from what I'm reading I think this is an issue that the Rabo are prepared to compromise on. I think they should.

I've watched lots of Rabo games thanks, in the flesh too as I lived just outside Cardiff for a few years but I'm not a fan of it. On paper some of the games look great but once you see the team sheet it's a bit of a let down.

Since when is wanting teams to earn the right to be in the HC mean I have a chip on my shoulder?

Very strange response!

I think it's more likely that because your team isn't involved in the Rabo, you are less inclined to be emotionally invested in whatever games are played. So not just as exciting for you. True for all of us perhaps.
Ok. You don't have a chip on your shoulder. You're a neutral when it comes to automatic qualification for Rabo teams.

[TJ]

the PRL have all but admitted its about power - they want the european cup run by clubs.

[LordDowlais]

So motivation should be nationalism first and foremost ? Just asking.
Which leads to another question:
Which comes first - your love of rugby - or love of your nation ?
And remember what Oscar had to say about patriotism.

How about Welsh rugby. So there we have it, Wales and Rugby in one sentence. But on a seriuos note, if the power is given to the clubs and the PRL then your national team will not stand a chance, the clubs will be asking for money hand over fist to release their players, and they would have the backing of the PRL as well. I say, let the unions run the game in our countries, they have been doing it for over 100 years, why change it know.

[HammerofThunor]

I think it's more likely that because your team isn't involved in the Rabo, you are less inclined to be emotionally invested in whatever games are played. So not just as exciting for you. True for all of us perhaps.
Ok. You don't have a chip on your shoulder. You're a neutral when it comes to automatic qualification for Rabo teams.

I don't think there is any perhaps in it. I once, as I was bored, put up an equation for determining the best league. The overiding factor was whether you supported a team in it, which swamped everything else. I put up my numbers and got accused of being biased as mine came out higher for the Premiership. That was last time I tried to bring KS3 maths on these boards.

[HammerofThunor]

So motivation should be nationalism first and foremost ? Just asking.
Which leads to another question:
Which comes first - your love of rugby - or love of your nation ?
And remember what Oscar had to say about patriotism.

How about Welsh rugby. So there we have it, Wales and Rugby in one sentence. But on a seriuos note, if the power is given to the clubs and the PRL then your national team will not stand a chance, the clubs will be asking for money hand over fist to release their players, and they would have the backing of the PRL as well. I say, let the unions run the game in our countries, they have been doing it for over 100 years, why change it know.

They alrady do ask for money to release players..outside of the IRB window (as do the Regions). They can't ask for money for releasing players inside the window as that would fall foul of the IRB regulations. Nothing that happens here is going to change that. We've already come from a place where our players weren't released in the 6N off weeks, etc and were told that was no excuse and man up.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I think it's more likely that because your team isn't involved in the Rabo, you are less inclined to be emotionally invested in whatever games are played. So not just as exciting for you. True for all of us perhaps.
Ok. You don't have a chip on your shoulder. You're a neutral when it comes to automatic qualification for Rabo teams.

I don't think there is any perhaps in it. I once, as I was bored, put up an equation for determining the best league. The overiding factor was whether you supported a team in it, which swamped everything else. I put up my numbers and got accused of being biased as mine came out higher for the Premiership. That was last time I tried to bring KS3 maths on these boards.

that's funny.

is there an equation the mediator can use to solve for unstoppable clubs and unmoveable unions?

[HammerofThunor]

It's quite a simple one. It involves his hourly rate and a time sheet.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

It's quite a simple one. It involves his hourly rate and a time sheet.

long equation then

[Exiledinborders]

unions are a relic of a bygone era (ie amateur). either the game's professional and there is a free market for talent and free mobility of labour or its not. let the unions stick with managing the grassroots and the international game. when they get involved in club rugby, all the incentives get messed up, and as i am sure you know, i think it's all about the incentives.

That statement there brings up a very important point, and one that for me at least is a scary one.

If CLub rugby, capitalism and free arket are moving in the direction where Test rugby effectively takes a step back then I will stop following rugby.

I already don't support a provincial team in SA as I don't identify with any specific team. Players swap teams for money, so no team is represented by home grown players anymore.

If test rugby has to fail, and club rugby is essentially a competition built on who has the biggest wallet the world over, there isn't much left to follow.

goodness no, i love Test rugby. and i think it can absolutely thrive, precisely because if the clubs are left to get on with club rugby, they will do a better job of developing the club game and marketing/merchandising it (viz BT deal 50% greater than SKY deal). and unions can focus on the international game. there seem to me many models for unions (NZ, WRU, RFU, IRFU) that all can be successful, but they should stop trying to stifle international inter-club competition in order to subsidise their national games. do it explicitly via central contracting or whatever rather than using status quo at the ERC.

One thing I will categorically disagree with you on is that Club rugby in no way shape or form subsidises National teams.

the Heineken Cup does. which is kind of the core unbridgeable gap for the luckless mediator.

Bollox. The international game in Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy subsidises the club game not the other way around. The international game is the economic engine of the game worldwide. Not to say the loss of income from European competition wouldn't hurt those Unions, it would, but the weakening of international rugby would destroy them hence the desire to curb the power of the clubs- most of the Unions negotiating position is about preserving international rugby and thats what the fans want.

You may be right that currently the international game subsidises the club game in Scotland Ireland and Wales. But need that be so if the Pro12 was more competitive and if both the Pro12 and HEC were better marketed then the teams could be self sufficient.

[Guest]

I think it's more likely that because your team isn't involved in the Rabo, you are less inclined to be emotionally invested in whatever games are played. So not just as exciting for you. True for all of us perhaps.
Ok. You don't have a chip on your shoulder. You're a neutral when it comes to automatic qualification for Rabo teams.

I don't think there is any perhaps in it. I once, as I was bored, put up an equation for determining the best league. The overiding factor was whether you supported a team in it, which swamped everything else. I put up my numbers and got accused of being biased as mine came out higher for the Premiership. That was last time I tried to bring KS3 maths on these boards.

  Seems like common sense to me. We all determine the value of things according to our own worldview. No less the value of a league in which our own team, that we are emotionally tied to, participates in.

[LordDowlais]

So motivation should be nationalism first and foremost ? Just asking.
Which leads to another question:
Which comes first - your love of rugby - or love of your nation ?
And remember what Oscar had to say about patriotism.

How about Welsh rugby. So there we have it, Wales and Rugby in one sentence. But on a seriuos note, if the power is given to the clubs and the PRL then your national team will not stand a chance, the clubs will be asking for money hand over fist to release their players, and they would have the backing of the PRL as well. I say, let the unions run the game in our countries, they have been doing it for over 100 years, why change it know.

They alrady do ask for money to release players..outside of the IRB window (as do the Regions). They can't ask for money for releasing players inside the window as that would fall foul of the IRB regulations. Nothing that happens here is going to change that. We've already come from a place where our players weren't released in the 6N off weeks, etc and were told that was no excuse and man up.

Yes but they are talking about doing their own thing outside of the Unions aren't they ? Or have I missed something ? They would almost be in an entity of their own so to speak so they would hold more power over their players, we have already heared the stories about Fijians in France getting paid more to not represent their country, and then there is that American player in the Jeff who was asked to not represent his country at the last world cup, I tell you, this will not do international rugby any good what so ever.

[beshocked]

the PRL have all but admitted its about power - they want the european cup run by clubs.  

Nothing wrong with that.

[HammerofThunor]

That's not going happen. And if it does they should be kicked out of union and any player that contracts to them (certainly after their decision) should be banned from international Union.

Regarding the current deals, it's a difficult balance while domestic rugby is played during international windows. If you're looking for international cover you're going to want non-international players. Players may put money first (no different to guys leaving NZ for Japan, etc). But no player should have it contracted to miss these games and should be free to change their mind. One option would be to play no domestic rugby during internationals (which would be good but there's no real room).

[Exiledinborders]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

Well what else are their motives then ?

Getting an equal share of the money?
Having a similar qualification process for all teams?
French and English clubs who represent two thirds of the teams not being outvoted.

[HammerofThunor]

It's quite a simple one. It involves his hourly rate and a time sheet.

long equation then

Not a long equation but it volves some pretty hefty numbers

[TJ]

The french and english have a majority of the votes in the ERC as well as taking the lions share of the money.  The english get 25% of the money for 12 clubs entered in both competitions, the Italians 8% for 6 clubs.

What business of the PRLs is it how the other unions decide qualification? How does this adversly affect the PRL clubs - and don't hide behind rotation / resting players - the PRL teams do this as well and more so that many Rabo teams

[Bathman_in_London]

In Francde it is certainly a club v union thing. Not a fight for who controls rugby, but who controls club rugby. Right now FFR has all the voting rights on club issues - and really is that correct. They do not fund the clubs in any way, but they decide what they must do. Much of the French disatisfaction came when the FFR voted for Jean-Pierre Lux to remain at the head of ERC - against the clubs wishes. With the other countries who Scotland, Ireland and Italian votes all going to Lux en-masse it made him a shoo-in.


The fact is, the tournament we started with in 1995/96 has changed in very many ways, but the agreement in place to govern it has not changed. This would always lead to some form of conflict and as long as both sides refuse to discuss matters in an adult way - there will be no resolution.

This major point seems to be lost on many people. In 1996 we had sides like Neath, Milan and Caledonia playing and it was a case of the top few teams from several leagues. Clearly amalgamating clubs and leagues together has changed the tournament and moved it a long way from its origins so it is right to have a re-think.
Whether a sensible discussion can happen is another story and it seems likely that us punters won't know until a verdict has been reached, one way or another.

[LordDowlais]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

Well what else are their motives then ?

Getting an equal share of the money?
Having a similar qualification process for all teams?
French and English clubs who represent two thirds of the teams not being outvoted.

They do have an equal share of the money, each union is given the same amount of money for the competitions, just because other unions decide to enter their teams differently it has nothing to do with what the French or English do, they could both enter three or four regions if they wanted to, the real argument here is not between all six unions in the competition it is between the clubs and their own unions, and that is the crux of it all I am afraid to tell you.

[TJ]

Thats right - we generously allowed the English clubs to join in later after the rest had proved the concept. then allowed the English clubs increased representation a few years later.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The french and english have a majority of the votes in the ERC as well as taking the lions share of the money.  The english get 25% of the money for 12 clubs entered in both competitions, the Italians 8% for 6 clubs.

What business of the PRLs is it how the other unions decide qualification?  How does this adversly affect the PRL clubs - and don't hide behind rotation / resting players - the PRL teams do this as well and more so that many Rabo teams

okay if you're gong to be selective, what about the irish and scottish teams?

[TJ]

Scots get more per team having given up their amlin places. Of course the scots could enter some of the semi pro teams into the amlin and watch them get beaten badly but it seems pointless to do so. Dunno how it works for the irish.

[gregortree]

Professional club ruby -  assisted by that tainted money from the TV moguls - has become a much improved sport in the professional sense and I would say as a spectacle for both traditional die hard fans and for the more casual converts. TV and gate money has transformed the game for both good an ill.
I loved rugby back in the amateur days, it had a unique culture about turning out unpaid, driven mainly by passion for club, country and your pride. And a bit of a minority cachet - in my country anyway. That passion is all still there, plus the rugby has improved, but ultimately money now has a massive and often ugly  influence. I can appreciate the distortions and stresses money introduces into this old amateur mix, and the negotiations are seldom pretty. But there is no turning back. European level rugby union sells, money men will be seeking as much market as possible from all the European rugby nations. EU players (and non EU) will move around as never before chasing the wage cap. The old romantic days of amateur localism are gone at top level (yes, sadly in many ways) but the modern dynamic European rugby will sell sell sell. We have to hope adequate cash gets reinvested to further improve the top level game we love. My random thoughts. Or we just attend our local amateur village club which is still an option.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

In Francde it is certainly a club v union thing. Not a fight for who controls rugby, but who controls club rugby. Right now FFR has all the voting rights on club issues - and really is that correct. They do not fund the clubs in any way, but they decide what they must do. Much of the French disatisfaction came when the FFR voted for Jean-Pierre Lux to remain at the head of ERC - against the clubs wishes. With the other countries who Scotland, Ireland and Italian votes all going to Lux en-masse it made him a shoo-in.


The fact is, the tournament we started with in 1995/96 has changed in very many ways, but the agreement in place to govern it has not changed. This would always lead to some form of conflict and as long as both sides refuse to discuss matters in an adult way - there will be no resolution.

This major point seems to be lost on many people. In 1996 we had sides like Neath, Milan and Caledonia playing and it was a case of the top few teams from several leagues. Clearly amalgamating clubs and leagues together has changed the tournament and moved it a long way from its origins so it is right to have a re-think.
Whether a sensible discussion can happen is another story and it seems likely that us punters won't know until a verdict has been reached, one way or another.

agreed. the serious shrinkage in numbers of welsh and scottish clubs competing for HC qualification is a conscious move by those unions to concentrate the revenue generated by HC and make those clubs able to compete monetarily for player talent. which is all well and good for them. until the PRL/LNR turn around and say they dont like the implications of the new arrangement (by celtic clubs not by ERC), to which IRFU, SRU and WRU are financially hooked. and then all hell breaks loose and we are where we are. inevitable, and twas ever so.

[Exiledinborders]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

Well what else are their motives then ?

Getting an equal share of the money?
Having a similar qualification process for all teams?
French and English clubs who represent two thirds of the teams not being outvoted.

They do have an equal share of the money, each union is given the same amount of money for the competitions, just because other unions decide to enter their teams differently it has nothing to do with what the French or English do, they could both enter three or four regions if they wanted to, the real argument here is not between all six unions in the competition it is between the clubs and their own unions, and that is the crux of it all I am afraid to tell you.

The Scottish share was set when they had four teams playing now they have two they still get the same share. Based on your logic if Edinburgh and Glasgow fold they should still continue to get their 13%.

In the end none of this nonsense about unions rather than clubs matters. The English and French generate most of the money. If the Pro 12 countries do not want to play ball they will end up with 100% of bugger all but will no doubt feel very self righteous about it.

[TJ]

The english and french do not generate most of the money. Without the Rabo teams they do not have a European cup to sell. Its the entirety of the competition that generates the money. You could say Leinster are the biggest draw right now.

[beshocked]

The english and french do not generate most of the money.  Without the Rabo teams they do not have a European cup to sell.  Its the entirety of the competition that generates the money.  You could say Leinster are the biggest draw right now.

TJ how do you know that? Have you got the viewing figures in front of you? The amount of money Leinster generate for the HC?

Actually the Amlin is mostly Anglo-French. The English and French could look to get representation from other countries that are not the narrow minded Pro12 ones.

You only care about your own nest egg, you don't think about the likes of Germany,Portugal,Georgia, Romania,Belgium etc.

These sides are in Europe, with representation from them it would be an European competition.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The english and french do not generate most of the money.  Without the Rabo teams they do not have a European cup to sell.  Its the entirety of the competition that generates the money.  You could say Leinster are the biggest draw right now.

what TV companies are willing to pay for rights tells me what independent observers think is the value. your statement is demonstrably false because PRL and LNR are able to extract far more than Rabo12 in deals. this is probably something to do with the combined population of England and France being c130million versus Ire,Sco,Wal c13million. aint nothing to do with how many people show up to a game.

[TJ]

Yes of course the jeff and the top 14 generate more money thatn the rabo - however that is irrlevant to the european cup where the money generated is by the competition. Just how much is a european cup without the rabo teams worth?  a fraction of what it is worth with them

You could equally say its bath and Leicester that generate most of the money for the jeff and newcastle and exeter generate less.

[HammerofThunor]

Yes of course the jeff and the top 14 generate more money thatn the rabo - however that is irrlevant to the european cup where the money generated is by the competition. Just how much is a european cup without the rabo teams worth?  a fraction of what it is worth with them

You could equally say its bath and Leicester that generate most of the money for the jeff and newcastle and exeter generate less.

And yet again. Why isn't the Pro12 revenue split like this? Because it wasn't set up like that was your previous answer. Pure tautology at it's best. It is because it is.

And the suggestion is the money would be equally split between all contestants, at both levels.

[TJ]

beshocked - so you think a european cup consisting of the top english and french teams along with a few others from the minor european countries you mention would be worth as much? Of course it would not. Any euro cup without the Irish would be meaningless.

[TJ]

Its just utter nonsense to say the english and french generate most of the money when we all know that the european cup needs more than the english and french teams in it to be valuable. without the Rabo nations there is no meaningful European cup.

[LordDowlais]

Well, we all know the real motives behind it all now dont we. When it boils down to it, it all comes down to the clubs wanting ultamate power over everything, there are far too many big ego's running rugby clubs at the moment and they think that just because they have the money they should have the power, well for the people who are supporting this way then I say carry on, this happened about a hundred years or so ago, and we ended up having two codes of rugby, what good could possibly come out of this, the PRL will do rugby union no favours in all of this, we all have our unions which run the game, good or bad, they have run it for over a century, if the PRL get there way then I can only see the international team suffering, just like it is in France, but as some people will say, they would much rather support their club than their country, I am the other way, I would rather support my country than my region, so each to their own.

Well if you repeat something often enough it must be true. Although I do find the image of Darth McCafferty and the PRL stormtroopers striving for ultimate power over everything, quite amusing.

Well what else are their motives then ?

Getting an equal share of the money?
Having a similar qualification process for all teams?
French and English clubs who represent two thirds of the teams not being outvoted.

They do have an equal share of the money, each union is given the same amount of money for the competitions, just because other unions decide to enter their teams differently it has nothing to do with what the French or English do, they could both enter three or four regions if they wanted to, the real argument here is not between all six unions in the competition it is between the clubs and their own unions, and that is the crux of it all I am afraid to tell you.

The Scottish share was set when they had four teams playing now they have two they still get the same share. Based on your logic if Edinburgh and Glasgow fold they should still continue to get their 13%.

In the end none of this nonsense about unions rather than clubs matters.  The English and French generate most of the money.  If the Pro 12 countries do not want to play ball they will end up with 100% of bugger all but will no doubt feel very self righteous about it.

Ah, the old how many people watching from which country argument, look, we all know what this is about, it is about the clubs getting more money and more control over the competition, the clubs in England are not happy with the share of monies they are having, and since the unions decide how much goes to whom they want to change this system and take as much as they can. Where does all the money from the HC go in England ? I bet some goes down to grass roots level and perhaps schools and the rest, amongst other money as well, there is a salary cap in England is there not ? So the clubs would not be able to sign more or better players to bolster their ranks, so, I wonder, where will all this extra money go ? It does not take a genius to work out what is going on, and the big clubs and the PRL want the RFU out of the way so that they can get their hands on extra dosh, they want more power and more money, so in affect we will have the Indians running the place and the chiefs having no say about it what so ever, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Orson Wells book, Animal Farm springs to mind when I look at what is unfolding here.

[beshocked]

TJ well you Pro12 sides are being stubborn. I am sure the English and French clubs would love the Italian,Welsh,Irish and Scottish clubs to join them in an European club competition but if the Pro12 clubs don't compromise....

Well I think an Euro cup is meaningless without English clubs but not according to Ulster fans......

Aren't the two Italian clubs in the Pro12 charged a hefty amount to stay there? That's what I read from a poster on these forums?

[HammerofThunor]

I believe the Italians have to provide funding to cover additional travel costs. They also get nothing from the new Sky deal and nothing from BBC/RTE deals.

[markb]

Hand out from who?

Oh, is any HEC monies not distributed amongst all 12 then?

No doubt a tiny amount might filter through to them, but at the end of the day IMO they haven't earned it, the same way some Rabo teams don't earn it but expect handouts from the HC just to survive rather than trying to create a league which is worth watching week in week out (like the Aviva and Top14).

Watching past it journeymen take on kids in front of two men and a dog isn't good TV nor is it proving attractive to fans as they continue to stay away, who can blame them?

A tiny amount? Seem to remember reading that only the bottom 2 get less of the HEC share, and that the less isn't all that far off what the remaining 10 get, but I would need to have another look. Actually, I'm glad they get whatever they get.
As for your wee dig at the Rabo. You obviously don't watch it much, but true that not all games are spectacular affairs, but then some of the AP games I've watched are hardly easy on the eyes either.
Ok, you have a chip on your shoulder about automatic qualification for the Rabo teams. I can understand this in part, but it should be remembered that the English, and French, are guaranteed HEC participation year on year in what is a European competition. I believe every Union represented in the 6Ns should have at least one team represented in the HEC, and from what I'm reading I think this is an issue that the Rabo are prepared to compromise on. I think they should.

There's no such thing as distinct HEC money, there is just the lump share of the revenue from both the Amlin and HEC competitions, which the ERC give the unions for the participation of their teams.  All 12 Premiership sides receive money because all 12 participate in the European competitions.


A compromise on all 6N unions having a team in the HEC was agreed earlier in the year.

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181018.html

It should be possible to negotiate that again into any new competition established.

[Welshmushroom]

Well said Chequered jersey.

The Pro12 supporters are very self righteous.

I can see the Pro12 point of view. The status quo is something they are happy with. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want change either but you must understand the English and French point of view.

TJ you want an European competition to be run by unions.  English and French clubs want a competition run by clubs. I agree with the English and French stance.

International rugby is the domain of the unions - they should be left to that sphere of influence.

Its got nothing to do with being self righteous. I've no problem with change in the slightest providing all the issues are aired. I totally understand the English and French clubs perspective. However the idea that English and French clubs are the only ones disadvantaged under the current format is just silly. You have actually on previous threads ignored my points because actually you have no answer for the areas the Pro 12 sides are disadvantaged.

So lets look at the proposed items from the English & French:

1. A block calendar and a movement of the HC final - No one has an issue with this and actually this is the easiest point of them all to eradicate. Only people against this could be the broadcasters (who ultimately will control all scheduling issues anyway).

2. Money to be split equally between 3 leagues for the funds with each region entitled to its own broadcasting deals - currently the system sees 50% of the revenue head to the Pro 12 (although this is partly due to fund distribution for teams who get further in the HC). So Ireland for example receive more than Wales on the basis they supply a third of the quarter finalists most years. This also sees the French earn a little more last year on the basis of providing 2 finalists. While I can agree a fairer distribution method is needed, you can appreciate the concern of putting a reward system in place that funds all 3 league equally without stipulating any further requirements in performance because you will possibly end up in a situation where clubs will merely take the cash and run once they have qualified for the HC without any need to really perform in it. This is especially the case for 10 out of the 20 participants who have zero chance of winning the tournament. That would see us lose the quality at group match stage and would just be a drop down from the current situation which benefits no one, as sponsors would not look at this favourably.

3. Equal voting rights without interference from the Unions - basically a impossible ask because the Pro 12 provinces/regions cannot separate themselves from their Unions due to the funding criteria. I think every Pro 12 side would like to but its an impossible ask because the Unions wont allow it. Everyone knows this is just a smoke screen so the PRL as more opportunity to trade for itself.


Issues not covered and unnoticed which also should be discuss -

1. Salary Caps - Surely all teams in the HC should be capped with the amount of squad spends allowed for HC representation. England and France have higher salary caps. If more money is given to them without restrictions it stands to reason that Pro 12 sides will be disadvantaged playing sides with greater budgets not to mention the likely player drain effect this will cause the Pro 12.

2. Non Home based player rulings - Pro 12 sides work under restrictions of signings. The English and French don't. So basically in those countries due to a lack of HC restrictions a side with enough money could turn up with the current all black squad while the Pro 12 sides are restricted. Given that the Pro 12 only has 6 capped foreigners max and in some cases even less (which is less than 10% of the playing squad), it stand to reason that English and French clubs should have to work under those same circumstances to make any changes fair.



I'm all for a proactive meeting and compromise on both sides. I have no real objections to any of the PRL points made providing all the point I have made where met. For one thing the foreign ruling would end the player drain the Pro 12 to some degree as our capped players would be protected (until of course the French league got bigger than the HC which could happen). The additional money that they would then get would go on securing their own talent pools of French and English players which I have no objection with. However that would basically eradicate any French or English side (with maybe the exception of Tolouse & Leicester) from winning the HC. That the PRL would never agree too because that would just inflate English playing salaries as well create a real divide between the have's and have not's in the Aviva and would definitely damage the competitiveness of their domestic league. Wouldn't affect the French as they would likely have 2 squads (one for league & one for HC) anyway.

That said even if all the above points where met, if the Pro 12 where to concede on point 3 to a 33% voting split, the English and French could overturn any of the suggestions I have made anyway so would render those changes mute unless of course these where protected in the original agreement. Subject to those changes being met (from a Welsh perspective), I would be more than happy to concede all of the points the PRL and French clubs want.

[TJ]

Beshocked - the pro 12 teams are prepared to compromise and have put several suggestions forward. the PRL are not at all. they want control and they want to reduce the number of rabo teams without reducing any of their own. this is a red line the Rabo teams cannot accept.

A european cup of the rabo nations ( plus the french?) plus georgia, spain etc would be more attactive option for the broadcasters thatn an franglo cup that we allknow the french would not take seriously

[TJ]

I just hope that at this meeting the RFU manage to get the PRL to stop being so intransigent and unreasonable and force them to the negotiating table with serious intent. Its the best for everyone. the RFU need to play a bit of hardball with the PRL

[gregortree]

Meanwhile over at Eurovision:
"Last week, Croatia announced it would be withdrawing from next year's contest, citing financial reasons. The country has not qualified for the final since 2009. It became the sixth country to pull out, along with Andorra, Luxembourg, Monaco, Morocco and Slovakia.Turkey - which snubbed the contest this year citing dissatisfaction with the rules - has created its own rival to Eurovision.Turkvision will see 20 countries and autonomous regions populated with Turkic minorities participate in the yearly event, the first of which will be held in Eskisehir this December.Next year's Eurovision Song Contest will be held in Copenhagen, Denmark, with the final held on 10 May."

Makes European rugby appear incredibly well organised by comparison.

[Exiledinborders]

beshocked - so you think a european cup consisting of the top english and french teams along with a few others from the minor european countries you mention would be worth as much?  Of course it would not.  Any euro cup without the Irish would be meaningless.

Maybe meaningless but not worthless commercially. That is in the short term. In the long term without entry to a European competition all the top players that are left in Ireland and Scotland will leave to go to France and England (France mostly). Then it wil be meaningful. I did not mention Wales because I suspect their regional team who have some independence will jump ship to join the new competition.

By the way none of this is what I want but this attitude shown by the Rabo unions of if we bury our heads in the sand all the nasty problems will go away is at the root of the problem. I have worked many years in business and if a major issue was threatening our business we would not (after eighteen months notice) be setting up a meeting at the end of October. We would be working nights and weekends until it was fixed.

[TJ]

Exiled - but the Rabo unions have shown a willingness to compromise - the PRL have not.

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