Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[HammerofThunor]

Fair point Hammer - and while a little late in the day, at least there is now some mediation in place. Providing the PRL are willing to come to the table (and given the IRB's stance looks like they probably now need to) then there is hope for some compromise on both sides.

Both the PRL and LNR have said they will not be at the next meeting other than to talk about their new competition. Both have said if their competition is not approved they simply won't play in Europe. PRL have said they'll speak to the moderator over the phone to hear what he says but have no intention in meeting with him over saving the ERC.

So when at last we've got all parties with the POTENTIAL to listen to each other, one of the parties signals that they won't be attending - is that because they know that their TV deal won't let them reach any agreement in fact?

The ERC didn't sort out the mediator until AFTER the LNR and PRL signalled an end to the negotiations (over a year after negotiations got them nowhere). If negotiations weren't going anywhere because the PRL were stonewalling (as claimed by Lux) why not organise a mediator earlier? Also the PRL had to sort out a TV deal for this season. It was sorted a year before the end of the current one (like pretty much every TV contract) and included any European competitions from after the PRL left the ERC in 2014. The ERC organised a new TV deal 2 years before their's was up AND after notice had been given regarding the end of the participation agreement. You can't lay all this on the PRL signing a new deal. Even if the deals meant the end of the ERC.

[Totalflanker]

Fair point Hammer - and while a little late in the day, at least there is now some mediation in place. Providing the PRL are willing to come to the table (and given the IRB's stance looks like they probably now need to) then there is hope for some compromise on both sides.

Both the PRL and LNR have said they will not be at the next meeting other than to talk about their new competition. Both have said if their competition is not approved they simply won't play in Europe. PRL have said they'll speak to the moderator over the phone to hear what he says but have no intention in meeting with him over saving the ERC.

Sorry, wasn't aware of that (pretty damning admittance, given the amount of stuff on here on the topic) - very disappointed. Was looking forward to some compromise on both sides to allow some rugby next year.

[beshocked]

alasbut100ofus it's obvious - the English and French clubs don't want the ERC to stay in charge. They do not want to be bullied by unions.

TJ rugby in Wales and Scotland is hardly in good shape as it is. A rehaul is needed.

[Poorfour]

Nonsense - the PRL have set out from stage one a position they know the Rabo unions cannot sign up to and have insisted on this position without any hint of compromise.  

shame on them for wanting to control everything and accumulate more money and power to a small number of clubowners with no thought for the consequences on the wider game - this is why the unions must run it - to protect the weaker countries.

the PRL proposals would ruin pro rugby in Scotland and Italy and damage it badly in Wales and Ireland - but that is of no consequence to tehm as they are not interested in a wider stronger game.

Your first sentence is simply not true. The only documented offer of any compromise position has come from the PRL/LNR side. You may not like it or find it acceptable, but the plain facts are that it's the only compromise that's been mentioned publicly to date and the ERC's position is as unacceptable to the PRL/LNR as their proposal is to the ERC. Oh, and what you're calling stage one ignores an extended period of asking for negotiations that were not taken seriously.

OK then. Let's be constructive if we can. Give me a proposal for a "wider stronger game" that addresses the concerns (raised by the majority of the teams) about qualification and avoids the French and English clubs subsidising the Pro12 clubs.

I fail to see how having (a little) more money and a more competitive Rabo (because of the need to qualify) and European competition (because of the more elite top tier) would lead to damage and ruin.

[HammerofThunor]

It's not all you've got. The PRL had issued a statement that the sky deal was not discussed at that meeting. Now you've already stated you believe that so not much to say really.

[beshocked]

Poorfour that's far too logical.

[lostinwales]

Nonsense - the PRL have set out from stage one a position they know the Rabo unions cannot sign up to and have insisted on this position without any hint of compromise.  

shame on them for wanting to control everything and accumulate more money and power to a small number of clubowners with no thought for the consequences on the wider game - this is why the unions must run it - to protect the weaker countries.

the PRL proposals would ruin pro rugby in Scotland and Italy and damage it badly in Wales and Ireland - but that is of no consequence to tehm as they are not interested in a wider stronger game.

Utter rubbish. Sorry.

It is in the PRL's interest to have a strong European competition. It is also in the PRL's best interest to maximise revenue from such a competition.

Creating a strong european competition also includes making a decent competition for the 2nd tier - making the Amlin stronger - to give decent games to the bottom 6 teams in the premiership.

BS or no they have even discussed the need for a 3rd tier -something which seems strangely absent in discussions from the ERC.

Its not about trying to rig things so that the Irish stop winning the competition most of the time.

They have been preaching the same message for many months now. All of a sudden the ERC has been spouting 'compromise' messages which were not there before.

I personally think that there is room for compromise over the format of the competition. As has been seen here a majority of posters would be happy with some variation around the 6 6 8 format, but it does feel that any such compromise will not go ahead with the ERC in its current form, as ultimately the PRL are certain they can raise more money by doing their own negotiations over TV funding. You cant blame Lux the turkey not voting for Christmas.

[HammerofThunor]

Also, just to point out, the meeting between the RFU and PRL was last Wednesday. I'm not sure why this post was brought back when there are so many others to play with.

EDIT: Intotouch made a comment referring to RC referring to the cartel of 6 nations and it all spiralled from there.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

alasbut100ofus it's obvious - the English and French clubs don't want the ERC to stay in charge. They do not want to be bullied by unions.

TJ rugby in Wales and Scotland is hardly in good shape as it is. A rehaul is needed.

I'm sure they'd appreciate your valuable contributions

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Nonsense - the PRL have set out from stage one a position they know the Rabo unions cannot sign up to and have insisted on this position without any hint of compromise.  

shame on them for wanting to control everything and accumulate more money and power to a small number of clubowners with no thought for the consequences on the wider game - this is why the unions must run it - to protect the weaker countries.

the PRL proposals would ruin pro rugby in Scotland and Italy and damage it badly in Wales and Ireland - but that is of no consequence to tehm as they are not interested in a wider stronger game.

Your first sentence is simply not true. The only documented offer of any compromise position has come from the PRL/LNR side. You may not like it or find it acceptable, but the plain facts are that it's the only compromise that's been mentioned publicly to date and the ERC's position is as unacceptable to the PRL/LNR as their proposal is to the ERC. Oh, and what you're calling stage one ignores an extended period of asking for negotiations that were not taken seriously.

OK then. Let's be constructive if we can. Give me a proposal for a "wider stronger game" that addresses the concerns (raised by the majority of the teams) about qualification and avoids the French and English clubs subsidising the Pro12 clubs.

I fail to see how having (a little) more money and a more competitive Rabo (because of the need to qualify) and European competition (because of the more elite top tier) would lead to damage and ruin.

Poorfour, I've given at least two in the last month alone, not to mention having contributed to many threads on the topic over the last couple of years

[beshocked]

Lostinwales well said. 

Very true about 3rd tier. I have heard very little concern from the Pro12 clubs about countries outside their little bubble - e.g. Belgium,Germany,Portugal,Romania etc. We must look at the competition growing.

A restructure is needed. This is clear. The PRL don't think that the ERC are doing a good enough job. I don't blame them.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

It's not all you've got. The PRL had issued a statement that the sky deal was not discussed at that meeting. Now you've already stated you believe that so not much to say really.

Thunor, I believe that PRL actually said that they hadn't agreed to anything rather than it not being discussed - hopefully the next time the ERC think they have been given a mandate to make progress they'll be sure to get signatures in blood! (or  )

[broadlandboy]

Interesting view point
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198813.html

[HammerofThunor]

Seems like he's saying the right things. Supporting the PRL but emphasing the desire for all of Europe (he doesn't really mean that does he? He means the 6 nations).

[TJ]

the RFU are in a very difficult position as much of the pwer in england resides with the PRL. He is saying what he has to say and hopefull behind closed doors is attempting to get the PRL to be reasonable

[broadlandboy]

In theory the ERC did have a mandate as those that objected had given notice to leave, the fact that 2/3 of the participating teams had given notice,so they didn't have the same comp to sell, seems to have got lost to the ERC. Unless the Sky deal did not include the PRL/LNR teams, in which the ERC got a very good deal

[maestegmafia]

Erc has been relying all along, and clearly still is, from JP lux regular statements, on rfu/ffr/irb scuppering prl/lnr. This is why EEC and the rabo participants did not negotiate and offer and compromise. They always believed they had the nuclear option with rfu/ffr/irb on their side. Shame on them.

Very true.

Hey, it is the PRL who are upsetting the apple cart. How on earth you can blame the ERC and so on is absolutely beyond me.

[maestegmafia]

the RFU are in a very difficult position as much of the pwer in england resides with the PRL.  He is saying what he has to say and hopefull behind closed doors is attempting to get the PRL to be reasonable

The RFU have been stupid to let the PRL gain so much power. It's time for them to make a stand.

[Welshmushroom]

artful dodger funny you call Quentin smith a parasite. I think that of most Pro12 clubs in the current HC.

malky1963  Edinburgh have far too many foreigners as it is.

That doesn't even count "Scots" like Cuthbert,Visser,Denton and Tonks.

Sorry Beshocked but as a Saracens fan you really can't cast any stones at teams for foreign policy.  The list of South Africans at your club is rather long, not to mention the other nationalities or the South African who have been capped by England but are still essentially South Africans.  Given the Saracens are the same owners for one of the South African franchises its clearly a employment home for the white players who struggle at times to find franchises due to the racial quota policy.  By my count more than one in two players in your squad is essentially non English.

I'm just pointing this out because when you actually compare Edinburgh to say Saracens they actually are not that bad.

Welshmushroom actually I can. This is because the AP consists of 12 teams. Plus Saracens are a good side - our foreigners are top notch and add to the league. Not journeyman who add little.

The likes of Brown,Burger,Joubert,Brits are top notch foreigners. We help Namibia,Scotland,Wales and USA by helping improve their players and giving them a decent platform for example. We also release players to international duty with no worries.

Our academy is very strong too - in the last 4 years we have had a healthy amount of players in the England U18s and U20s plus now some of them are getting full international honours too.

Scotland only has two teams. It's unhealthy for one side to be stacked full of foreigners.

At no point have I stated that Saracens are a bad team. However all you have provided is a list of reasons as to why this policy is in place. What I was highlighting is that Saracens have more foreigners than Edinburgh which cant really be refuted. That's just a fact.

The logic your implying regarding the need because there are 12 English sides doesn't justify the Saracens foreign policy either. If every club in the Premiership functioned under that method the RFU may as well have merged its playing talent into 6 teams because 50% of the playing population would not be of beneficial interest to the Union. I bring this up because 50% exactly the split between Edinburgh and Glasgow which you refer to above, which you say is unhealthy.

At any rate my point simply implied that Saracens hire more foreigners than Edinburgh, which they do. I don't really see a counter to this statement.

[TJ]

I hope they do - the noises coming out from them leads me to believe the are trying to get the PRL to play nicely but are struggling. at some point they will have to take sides publicly but its good they have not so far

[munkian]

Have the RFU actually made any kind of statement or are they hanging back and seeing who wins before nailing their colours ?

[TJ]

I think they are trying to push the PRL without falling out with them.

[beshocked]

the RFU are in a very difficult position as much of the pwer in england resides with the PRL.  He is saying what he has to say and hopefull behind closed doors is attempting to get the PRL to be reasonable

The RFU have been stupid to let the PRL gain so much power. It's time for them to make a stand.

The French clubs have been stupid to let the FFR gain so much power. It's time for them to make a stand.......


Welshmushroom if every club in England adopted the same policy as Saracens then yes it would in all likelihood be unhealthy but that's not the case.

Quins for example easily balance out Sarries. There are 11 other sides in the AP too.

Just because Sarries have more foreigners does not make what I say wrong. Sarries have a very big squad - a strong academy and a good mix. Plus as I say most of the foreigners are top notch. You yourself pointed out that vs Bath we had 13 internationals. I think it was you.

Edinburgh's situation is very unhealthy. It's not even as if most of their foreigners are top quality either.

Just because I happen to support a side with a healthy mix of young talent and foreign talent doesn't make my points less accurate.

[HammerofThunor]

the RFU are in a very difficult position as much of the pwer in england resides with the PRL.  He is saying what he has to say and hopefull behind closed doors is attempting to get the PRL to be reasonable

The only power the PRL have is given to them by the RFU on a temporary basis. In 2016 the RFU can remove their control over their domestic competitions. This will mean the PRL would have to break away from union. Which is always a threat (all that Packer stuff in '95). Effectively at the moment the RFU give the PRL control over their domestic competitions as long as they ensure they do certain things, (run academies to develop English players, limit to non-EU, non-Kolpak players, etc)

[HammerofThunor]

Have the RFU actually made any kind of statement or are they hanging back and seeing who wins before nailing their colours ?

The RFU have side they support the PRL's drive for change (specifically relating to financial split and qualification it seems, no mention of control). But no real specifics. At least that was my reading of their statement last week, posted just above.

[TJ]

And the RFU also called for an inclusive competition - a olive branch to the rest. I actually think the RFU are coming out of this well and I am surprised.

[Poorfour]

In theory the ERC did have a mandate as those that objected had given notice to leave, the fact that 2/3 of the participating teams had given notice,so they didn't have the same comp to sell, seems to have got lost to the ERC. Unless the Sky deal did not include the PRL/LNR teams, in which the ERC got a very good deal

That's as good a summary as I've seen, and pretty balanced. My read is that the meeting would have gone something like this:
ERC: "We're gonna renegotiate the TV rights for after 2015, innit?"
PRL: "Yeah, whatevs. It's not like we're bovvered, cos we is not gonna even be here."
LNR: [Shrugs]

I'd only add that the ERC presumably negotiated the rights expecting that the PRL/LNR would come back into the fold, and that I doubt anyone will have been daft enough to negotiate something without a get out clause of some sort. Sky probably won't be committed to paying the full amount if the French and English aren't in. The ERC won't be committed to having all 6 participants, etc.

[Poorfour]

And the RFU also called for an inclusive competition - a olive branch to the rest.  I actually think the RFU are coming out of this well and I am surprised.

Ian Ritchie is a professional sports administrator (ran Wimbledon before becoming RFU CEO) and not part of the rugby culture in the way that just about everyone else in this sorry mess is. That may account for it.

[TJ]

Ah. tht would probably account for it.

[Intotouch]

If eight out of the twelve premiership clubs are up to their eyeballs in debt then they will have to find more money from somewhere somehow. I can't really blame them from making deals with other tv networks or refusing to negotiate if their backs are against the wall. Pretending that they care about Scotland or Italy though is a joke.

Can they survive with an expanded premiership alone? As things stand the French won't be able to take part in franglo cup but will refuse to take part to a new version of the h cup. So they will probably expand the top 14. Can the English sides do the same and thrive?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

i think all national club organisations are going to have to try to figure out how to eat without a lucrative European club competition. nobody can compel PRL/LNR to participate, not even President Hollande, and two Rabo competitions (rabo and HC mk2) in the same season is a dead in the water concept.

belt tightening all around i'm afraid chaps.

[TJ]

Having listened to all the debate on this ( and partaken vigorously   ) it seems to me that the crucial point is do you believe it is right that the clubs with the power - the PRL and the LNR - should be able to wield that power for the good of their clubs or that the health of the wider game counts for something and a more even playing field at all levels is desirable- which means curbing the power of the English and French clubs - something only the unions can do.

I will only look at the scottish situation but I believe the Italians and to a lessor extent the Welsh and Irish would have similar issues.

AS things stand the Scottish teams find it hard to compete with the big guns in Europe. They have smaller budgets than most rivals they also play fewer competitive games and its hard to find team spots to develop the younger players with only two top flight teams. If the PRL proposals go thru it is no doubt they would be further disadvantaged. The financial gulf would increase allowing the English and French clubs to price the scots out of the market for top players and also to retain the best scots players making it harder for the union to manage the players to avoid burnout.

further to that with only one club at the top table their would be less exposure to top flight rugby for the scots players leading to even more difficulties in developing players and the emphasis would change to making more games critical so making it harder to play the young scots rather than the journeyman international pros we could afford, It simply would be too risky to play a young SH say rather than a journeyman experienced nonscot as the price of losing a game becomes very high.

This would have he effect of weakening the scots international side in comparison to the English and French and make the 6N even less competitive as less scots players would be playing top flight rugby so would be less able to take that step up into internationals

There is no doubt in my mind this would be so. So the question is is this a price worth paying? I understand the frustrations that some have with the current HC but it does help level the playing field over the whole game at all levels. Would you be happy if the scots were no longer even vaguely competitive in the 6N and do you consider this a price worth paying for the increased success of the english clubs?

Ie do you think the health of the wider game is more important or the success of the English clubs?

[Exiledinborders]

If Edinburgh and Glasgow were fighting for a Heineken Cup place each week maybe the rugby would be more competitive and therefore more attractive to spectators and in the long term TV companies and sponsors. After all in the new arrangements they would get same amount of money per team as everybody else. So why would their income be less? Presumably because they are currently failing to interest people in the game. If English and French clubs can grow audiences why cannot Scots and Welsh. Both Edinburgh and Glasgow are large cities.

The team that does not qualify will be playing in a competition more suited to their abilities. Personally I think playing competitive rugby is better for player development than being outclassed.

[Poorfour]

i think all national club organisations are going to have to try to figure out how to eat without a lucrative European club competition. nobody can compel PRL/LNR to participate, not even President Hollande, and two Rabo competitions (rabo and HC mk2) in the same season is a dead in the water concept.

belt tightening all around i'm afraid chaps.

Isn't it a question of who's best able to survive on domestic revenues alone? I don't think anyone's making money at the moment, but whose pockets are deepest and who will blink first?

[TJ]

Income would be RELATIVLY LESS as the PRL and LNR teams would get a lot more money and the Scots teams the same as they have now. Its only 2 years ago Edinburgh were in the knockout stages beating euro big guns.

the scots teams are growing their audiences. Glasgow especially

[itsallabouttheincentives]

100% agree

[itsallabouttheincentives]

and maybe that is the celtic league if their unions dip more deeply into their pockets. who knows.

[broadlandboy]

So you agree that the Scotish teams are subsidzed by & gain an advantage from playing in the HEC

[TJ]

Tehre is no more money in Scotland - its all spent. the SRU have no deep pockets to dig into as unlike the english clubs they are not able to run deficit financing

[TJ]

They are not subsidized. that is a canard. there is no transfer of money from anyone else to the Scots. the current setup helps smooth out inequalities as that is the way it was set up with the wider game in mind. the BT deal would increase inequalities.

[lostinwales]

Income would be RELATIVLY LESS as the PRL and LNR teams would get a lot more money and the Scots teams the same as they have now.  Its only 2 years ago Edinburgh were in the knockout stages beating euro big guns.

the scots teams are growing their audiences.  Glasgow especially

If they grow their audiences then they will increase their revenue and all will be good. If one or both teams are in the 'Amlin' or whatever its called they may well have an increased chance to progress further in the competition and get more games and revenue that way. They are not going to get less money because of the proposed situation.

It is in the interest of the PRL to have strong teams to play against in european competition.

How salary caps are managed in other countries is a whole different question. If things go the way the PRL currently want their salary cap isnt going to suddenly change (some would like things to change but many would not). What does happen is that many of the English clubs may start breaking even or making small profits rather than losses.

[TJ]

If its in the interests of the PRL to have strong competition then why does their proposal so weaken the scots ( and Italians)

[broadlandboy]

What would you call it then?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

so in the absence of HC money, either the SRU need to scale back their spending somewhere, or pick up the phone to PRL/LNR.

[lostinwales]

If its in the interests of the PRL to have strong competition then why does their proposal so weaken the scots ( and Italians)

Why does it weaken them exactly? The Scots get the same money if not some more. There seems to be considerable confusion over what the Italians get anyways and it wont be less.

The chances also are that the weakest of their respective two teams gets to play in a euro competition where they wont be the whipping boys

[TJ]

a subsidy involves a transfer from one to another. waht happens now is an agreed distribution of profits. You may think the basis for this is unfair but its not a subsidy its an attempt to level the playing fields to help the weaker teams to get stronger.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

why should Europe's premier elite rugby club competition be a device to "level the playing fields to help the weaker teams to get stronger"? that is not a strong competition, that is an altruistic one.

[maestegmafia]

the RFU are in a very difficult position as much of the pwer in england resides with the PRL.  He is saying what he has to say and hopefull behind closed doors is attempting to get the PRL to be reasonable

The RFU have been stupid to let the PRL gain so much power. It's time for them to make a stand.

The French clubs have been stupid to let the FFR gain so much power. It's time for them to make a stand.......

The FFR did make a stand, they told the LNR that they do not support them. As discussed previously on a number of threads, LNRs concepts do not reflect all the clubs in France, many of them dislike the direction French Club Rugby is heading and see it as being unsustainable and debt ridden.

so As I said, it is time for the RFU to make a firm statement on where they stand, do they back the PRL? Or do they back all the other Unions, the ERC and the IRB...?

[TJ]

Yup - the HC money is very important to the SRU. thats why the prl is so hated for their actions - its holding a gun to the head.

[TJ]

Thats the point of this thread. Do you want a rich PRL or a competative HC / 6N - its a choice.

there is a difference of philosophies here. Free market or help the weaker to be stroinger

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