Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[Exiledinborders]

I just hope that at this meeting the RFU manage to get the PRL to stop being so intransigent and unreasonable and force them to the negotiating table with serious intent. Its the best for everyone.  the RFU need to play a bit of hardball with the PRL

They have been waiting nearly eighteen months for the Rabo unions to negotiate! The recent meeting was the first one since May and the next is not until the end of October. If the PRL and LNR have taken that to mean that despite notice being given nearly eighteen months ago the Rabo are not serious about negotiations who can blame them.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Beshocked - the pro 12 teams are prepared to compromise and have put several suggestions forward.  the PRL are not at all.  they want control and they want to reduce the number of rabo teams without reducing any of their own.  this is a red line the Rabo teams cannot accept.

A european cup of the rabo nations ( plus the french?) plus georgia, spain etc would be more attactive option for the broadcasters thatn an franglo cup that we allknow the french would not take seriously

are you serious? do you not understand the economics of broadcast TV sports? In what parallel universe would any broadcaster pay more for a tournament with the nations you mention than a tournament with exclusive right to screen matches to countries with a population of 130million? it's all about the platform and access.

i wish you would stop this whole lie regarding the economics of Heineken Cup. the fact that 3 out of 4 nations (Wal,Sco,Ita) have changed their entire club landscap to maximise the impact of the HC monies shows you exactly how financially viable the club game is in those countries without HC. So of course most of the (TV) money comes from (the participation of) Eng, Fra. As they are the only leagues which could contemplate leaving the HC this must logically and necessarily be the case.

[Exiledinborders]

Exiled - but the Rabo unions have shown a willingness to compromise - the PRL have not.

Negotiate on qualification maybe but not on revenue sharing or voting rights from what I have seen.

[TJ]

Nonsense - the PRL stance has been - "this is what we are doing - take it or leave it". No negoiotiation at all. the Rabo teams have been prepared to compromise all along. remeber we already have allowed the english clubs to enter once the rest had set up a cup and then to increase their representation

Quite simply 6/6/6 will never fly. Its beyond what the rabo teams could ever vote for why should the rabo teams lose 40% of their places and the PRL none? 5/5/8 could be acceptable - share the pain.

this is of cousrse along with the demand that the PRL run the competition - and that is what it is.

the PRL will be the losers here - I can easily forsee as I have said all alnog a european cup without them. Wehave been here before.

[TJ]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC. How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth? Not much at all. Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs. they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

[gregortree]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Nonsense - the PRL stance has been - "this is what we are doing - take it or leave it".  No negoiotiation at all.  the Rabo teams have been prepared to compromise all along.  remeber we already have allowed the english clubs to enter once the rest had set up a cup and then to increase their representation

Quite simply 6/6/6 will never fly.  Its beyond what the rabo teams could ever vote for  why should the rabo teams lose 40% of their places and the PRL none? 5/5/8 could be acceptable - share the pain.  

this is of cousrse along with the demand that the PRL run the competition - and that is what it is.  

the PRL will be the losers here - I can easily forsee as I have said all alnog a european cup without them.  Wehave been here before.

want to make a bet who will be the losers when neither PRL nor LNR take part in European competition next year, and lets assume they dont set up their own either? i look forwards to the RWC2015 when english and french players are as well rested as everyone else by not having to play the most demanding domestic schedules in addition to European club compeition.

personally i think no HC promises an improvement in English/French national team preparedness, and quite the opposite for the Celtic nations. if the celtic unions dont recognise this then there is nothing to be done.

[LondonTiger]

TJ, no way have the Rabo teams been willing to compromise. Until PRL/LNR walked away they offered nothing up.

Oh and last time, the English clubs got exactly what they wanted. They were given a vote within ERC, which had been denied them, and a revenue share in line with the other countries. Due to RFU incompetence they were late to the HEC table - and had to accept a real bum deal when they did get permission to enter. There was a marked lack of willing to negotiate with them, until they walked away. Even then everyone thought they were bluffing.

[lostinwales]

Orson Wells book, Animal Farm springs to mind when I look at what is unfolding here.

Thank you -That just made my day. Orson was quite a polymath wasnt he...

[gregortree]

wahaha !
I can see the anagram anyway.

[Exiledinborders]

Well said Chequered jersey.

The Pro12 supporters are very self righteous.

I can see the Pro12 point of view. The status quo is something they are happy with. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want change either but you must understand the English and French point of view.

TJ you want an European competition to be run by unions.  English and French clubs want a competition run by clubs. I agree with the English and French stance.

International rugby is the domain of the unions - they should be left to that sphere of influence.

Its got nothing to do with being self righteous.  I've no problem with change in the slightest providing all the issues are aired.  I totally understand the English and French clubs perspective.  However the idea that English and French clubs are the only ones disadvantaged under the current format is just silly.  You have actually on previous threads ignored my points because actually you have no answer for the areas the Pro 12 sides are disadvantaged.  

So lets look at the proposed items from the English & French:

1.  A block calendar and a movement of the HC final - No one has an issue with this and actually this is the easiest point of them all to eradicate.  Only people against this could be the broadcasters (who ultimately will control all scheduling issues anyway).

2.  Money to be split equally between 3 leagues for the funds with each region entitled to its own broadcasting deals - currently the system sees 50% of the revenue head to the Pro 12 (although this is partly due to fund distribution for teams who get further in the HC).  So Ireland for example receive more than Wales on the basis they supply a third of the quarter finalists most years.  This also sees the French earn a little more last year on the basis of providing 2 finalists.  While I can agree a fairer distribution method is needed, you can appreciate the concern of putting a reward system in place that funds all 3 league equally without stipulating any further requirements in performance because you will possibly end up in a situation where clubs will merely take the cash and run once they have qualified for the HC without any need to really perform in it.  This is especially the case for 10 out of the 20 participants who have zero chance of winning the tournament.  That would see us lose the quality at group match stage and would just be a drop down from the current situation which benefits no one, as sponsors would not look at this favourably.

3. Equal voting rights without interference from the Unions - basically a impossible ask because the Pro 12 provinces/regions cannot separate themselves from their Unions due to the funding criteria.  I think every Pro 12 side would like to but its an impossible ask because the Unions wont allow it.  Everyone knows this is just a smoke screen so the PRL as more opportunity to trade for itself.


Issues not covered and unnoticed which also should be discuss -

1. Salary Caps - Surely all teams in the HC should be capped with the amount of squad spends allowed for HC representation.   England and France have higher salary caps.  If more money is given to them without restrictions it stands to reason that Pro 12 sides will be disadvantaged playing sides with greater budgets not to mention the likely player drain effect this will cause the Pro 12.

2. Non Home based player rulings - Pro 12 sides work under restrictions of signings.  The English and French don't.  So basically in those countries due to a lack of HC restrictions a side with enough money could turn up with the current all black squad while the Pro 12 sides are restricted.  Given that the Pro 12 only has 6 capped foreigners max and in some cases even less (which is less than 10% of the playing squad), it stand to reason that English and French clubs should have to work under those same circumstances to make any changes fair.



I'm all for a proactive meeting and compromise on both sides.  I have no real objections to any of the PRL points made providing all the point I have made where met.  For one thing the foreign ruling would end the player drain the Pro 12 to some degree as our capped players would be protected (until of course the French league got bigger than the HC which could happen).  The additional money that they would then get would go on securing their own talent pools of French and English players which I have no objection with.  However that would basically eradicate any French or English side (with maybe the exception of Tolouse & Leicester) from winning the HC.  That the PRL would never agree too because that would just inflate English playing salaries as well create a real divide between the have's and have not's in the Aviva and would definitely damage the competitiveness of their domestic league.  Wouldn't affect the French as they would likely have 2 squads (one for league & one for HC) anyway.

That said even if all the above points where met, if the Pro 12 where to concede on point 3 to a 33% voting split, the English and French could overturn any of the suggestions I have made anyway so would render those changes mute unless of course these where protected in the original agreement.  Subject to those changes being met (from a Welsh perspective), I would be more than happy to concede all of the points the PRL and French clubs want.

Do Pro 12 sides really restrict player from outside the country? Surely that runs contrary to Bosman and Kolpak rulings which means it is illegal to discriminate against workers from other EU countries or those with association agreement with EU which includes SA and all the pacific islands.

[beshocked]

TJ you say the PRL will be the losers. That's hubris. You don't know that for certain.

You seem to overestimate the importance of the Pro12 countries in the HC. You seem to think that they are more important than the English and French. Your hubris will be your downfall.

6,6,8 would be my offer.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

[HammerofThunor]

WelshMushroom (nice to actually have something constructive to respond to).

1) Agree. If the Broadcasters allow it, it should be done.

2) Agree again. Performance bonuses must remain. I have a feeling the PRL want (or accept) the 85% amount being split by teams in both tiers of Europe rather than just the top current. This would lead to larger increases for the English sides but protect the amount given to everyone.

3) Currently the clubs have 6.5 votes and 4 of those can be taken away. I think the clubs would agree for at least all of their unions votes going to them. If some of those sides give their votes to their union (or are just representatives of the union) then groovy). The issue at the moment is that about 67% of the teams in the competition have a grand total (effective) of 14% of the vote. I don't think it's a case of "what? You ARE your union? Ok we'll have those then".

On to your other points.

1) How is the cap determined? How do you include Central Contracts? What about other financial benefits such as future tax refunds at retirement (is that how it works in Ireland?). What about cost of living? Is it inflation linked? Etc, etc. You know the problems.

2) I'd be all for this. Ideally with additional allowances for those without home professional leagues. But it works in the Pro12 because of reliance on Union funding and good faith. I don't think it would stand up if challenged. Certainly regarding Europeans. The Jeff already has a quote on non-European, non-Kolpak players in match day squads. Exeter were fined over it as their Fijian player was using an Australian passport. I do wonder whether it could be a stipulation in the 'ERC' participation agreement. Although it's unlikely to get agreement from the PRL never mind the French. Also the reason for these caps is to ensure the limited player spaces in these sides are not filled with players inelligble for the national side. England does not have this problem (at the moment). In fact it would lead to the higher status clubs buying up the best English players. It would also lead to there being a saturation of average squad players, who are currently average squad players in the premeirship/T14, in the Pro12 teams keeping out younger players. I'm all for a limit of some kind but it's a completely different situation.


Nice read  

[LondonTiger]

TJ you say the PRL will be the losers. That's hubris. You don't know that for certain.

You seem to overestimate the importance of the Pro12 countries in the HC. You seem to think that they are more important than the English and French. Your hubris will be your downfall.

6,6,8 would be my offer.

It would not be mine. It is a crap offer. No worse though than the alternatives offered up by the parties involved.

They had a chance to create a meaningful strructure with a sensible number of teams (ie so the same number of teams from each group make the knockout stages) and a really strong second tier competition. Instead everyone wants to be at the top table.

[LordDowlais]

Welles, sorry, but the similarities are there, get rid of the people in charge and run it yourself only to find out you have become worst than the one's who were originally in charge and before you know it you have created a monster.

[HammerofThunor]

Why not that other of Orson's classics. 1984. The Unions are Big Brother. Controlling behemoths that trample on the clubs to keep the greedy mits on the money and the power. Fight the Power!

Ridiculous spin is fun.

[TJ]

Its the PRL who have overplayed it and are isolated without even the support of the RFU. You will see. They have not been able to get a split in the Rabo unions and are increasingly huffing and puffing to no avail

You really think might is right should rule? you are prepared to see a european rugby set up where the gulf between the top and the bottom increases? a 6N with semi pro scots / Italians playing?

Yes they have called the bluff of the PRL and a bluff it has turned out to be. without the rabo unions there is no european cup. without the PRL teams there still is one albeit diminished

[itsallabouttheincentives]

TJ you say the PRL will be the losers. That's hubris. You don't know that for certain.

You seem to overestimate the importance of the Pro12 countries in the HC. You seem to think that they are more important than the English and French. Your hubris will be your downfall.

6,6,8 would be my offer.

It would not be mine. It is a crap offer. No worse though than the alternatives offered up by the parties involved.

They had a chance to create a meaningful strructure with a sensible number of teams (ie so the same number of teams from each group make the knockout stages)  and a really strong second tier competition. Instead everyone wants to be at the top table.

The fairest offer by numbers is 6,7,6, ie 50% of each leagues team's qualify, but with NO AUTOMATIC QUALIFICATION. it is not the PRL/LNR's fault that Celtalia merged their domestic games into 1 league. If you want an elite club competition, there can be no automatic qualification.

there are plenty of other definitions of "fairness", but this is the one that provides the best incentives, and i'm all about that.

[Guest]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

[Exiledinborders]

Welles, sorry, but the similarities are there, get rid of the people in charge and run it yourself only to find out you have become worst than the one's who were originally in charge and before you know it you have created a monster.

No still not right! George Orwell.

Orson Welles did write a radio play about invaders from Mars. Perhaps that is the PRL?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

[butterfingers]

I was thinking more The Terminator, we have created an entity that is now trying to conquer the world.

Where is Sarah Conner? The PRL need a good whipping!

[butterfingers]

'I need your HC slots, money unt your voting rights'

[HammerofThunor]

Its the PRL who have overplayed it and are isolated without even the support of the RFU.  You will see.  They have not been able to get a split in the Rabo unions and are increasingly huffing and puffing to no avail

You really think might is right should rule?  you are prepared to see a european rugby set up where the gulf between the top and the bottom increases?  a 6N with semi pro scots / Italians  playing?

Yes they have called the bluff of the PRL and a bluff it has turned out to be.  without the rabo unions there is no european cup.  without the PRL teams there still is one albeit diminished

How is every team getting the same amount widen the gap? Or do you think that the ERC should be used to smooth out the extra funding the Premeirship gets in league TV and ticket sales?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

total red herring but anyway...PRL debt, even including 1-off new stadium projects etc, will be handled very nicely by their BT contract.

and in what way did i exaggerate? a metaphor is not an exaggeration. chips falling where they may refers metaphorically, and rather elegantly, to the fact that after they fall, which appears inevitable, they can be rebuilt anew into something different.

[HammerofThunor]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

[butterfingers]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

total red herring but anyway...PRL debt, even including 1-off new stadium projects etc, will be handled very nicely by their BT contract.

and in what way did i exaggerate? a metaphor is not an exaggeration. chips falling where they may refers metaphorically, and rather elegantly, to the fact that after they fall, which appears inevitable, they can be rebuilt anew into something different.

I couldn't agree with that analogy more, let the chips fall where they may, I am starting to get pretty confident that the PRL machine is going into overdrive to cover the biggest bluff they won't get away with. If this was poker I would be going all in with a smile on my face.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Its the PRL who have overplayed it and are isolated without even the support of the RFU.  You will see.  They have not been able to get a split in the Rabo unions and are increasingly huffing and puffing to no avail

You really think might is right should rule?  you are prepared to see a european rugby set up where the gulf between the top and the bottom increases?  a 6N with semi pro scots / Italians  playing?

Yes they have called the bluff of the PRL and a bluff it has turned out to be.  without the rabo unions there is no european cup.  without the PRL teams there still is one albeit diminished

you appear to be conflating european club rugby and european international rugby. please try to be clear. are we talking about 6N or HC? On the 6N front, Italy, many of whose players are in Fra and Eng appear to have little trouble getting improved results - maybe that is why they are improving?

[LordDowlais]

Why are we getting into bun fights about the RFU against the Rabo Unions, lets not kid ourselves here, or the English on here kid themselves, this all about the ENGLISH clubs against the ENGLISH RFU. There has been nit picking and spitefulness between the clubs and their union for a long time now, and the clubs want the RFU (old farts) out of the way, and they want more control over how things are run, it is all about power and money, it is the HC now, and I have been saying this for ages, the next will be either their own league or the six nations, if the English supporters are happy with this then carry on, I only hope that us Celts can sort something out between ourselves that can still keep us competitive.

[markb]

2.  Money to be split equally between 3 leagues for the funds with each region entitled to its own broadcasting deals - currently the system sees 50% of the revenue head to the Pro 12 (although this is partly due to fund distribution for teams who get further in the HC).  So Ireland for example receive more than Wales on the basis they supply a third of the quarter finalists most years.  This also sees the French earn a little more last year on the basis of providing 2 finalists.  While I can agree a fairer distribution method is needed, you can appreciate the concern of putting a reward system in place that funds all 3 league equally without stipulating any further requirements in performance because you will possibly end up in a situation where clubs will merely take the cash and run once they have qualified for the HC without any need to really perform in it.  This is especially the case for 10 out of the 20 participants who have zero chance of winning the tournament.  That would see us lose the quality at group match stage and would just be a drop down from the current situation which benefits no one, as sponsors would not look at this favourably.

There are two sets of payments in the current ERC system.  The 'participation payments' are the fixed ones (52% to the PRO12 nations, 48% to the Franglos), coming from a roughly €40m pot.  Then there are the 'meritocracy payments' which reward progression, coming from a roughly €6m pot.

The arguments have been over the 'participation payments'.  As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any suggestion that the 'meritocracy payments' system needs adjusting.

[HammerofThunor]

Oh an actually I wonder if a limit to the number of players from other ERC members. So if the Welsh are worried about their players following the money this will be limited by agreement of ERC squads. Maybe limit it to 3 or 4 in a playing squad. Still enough that UK citizens can find employment in the UK (never mind Europeans) but a limit so they all don't just up sticks.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

total red herring but anyway...PRL debt, even including 1-off new stadium projects etc, will be handled very nicely by their BT contract.

and in what way did i exaggerate? a metaphor is not an exaggeration. chips falling where they may refers metaphorically, and rather elegantly, to the fact that after they fall, which appears inevitable, they can be rebuilt anew into something different.

I couldn't agree with that analogy more, let the chips fall where they may, I am starting to get pretty confident that the PRL machine is going into overdrive to cover the biggest bluff they won't get away with. If this was poker I would be going all in with a smile on my face.

ah yes, but what cards do the french have? they will probably shrug, say "bof" and reveal four aces...just depends what they want to do with them!

[butterfingers]

Why are we getting into bun fights about the RFU against the Rabo Unions, lets not kid ourselves here, or the English on here kid themselves, this all about the ENGLISH clubs against the ENGLISH RFU. There has been nit picking and spitefulness between the clubs and their union for a long time now, and the clubs want the RFU (old farts) out of the way, and they want more control over how things are run, it is all about power and money, it is the HC now, and I have been saying this for ages, the next will be either their own league or the six nations, if the English supporters are happy with this then carry on, I only hope that us Celts can sort something out between ourselves that can still keep us competitive.

My thoughts exactly! The PRL are happy to wage war on the Rabo nations now, knowing it strengthens their hand for the real fight, the RFU backs the PRL and it is near waving goodbye to itself, English international rugby will become akin to the football team, all league no quality.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

i assume you are trying to be rude?

[HammerofThunor]

It's not actually. It's about the French LNR against the French FFR. I don't think the RFU would object too much with them losing the rest of their stake in the ERC. Maybe just keeping a toehold (but they have that anyway because when it comes up for renewal they can pull out).

The clubs and the union in England have been getting on pretty well for a while now. The limit of this disagreement is that the RFU believe the Euro rights return to them and they haven't sanction the BT deal (yet). They haven't said they won't. They haven't said they won't agree a Franglo Cup (although Gosper tweeted that they have). They haven't said much of anything. The only time the PRL have mentioned the RFU is in response to questions regarding if they didn't sanction the Franglo and the PRL response was that they would have to look at the reasons as they don't think there is a justifiable reason. Doesn't mean they would contest it but they would look at it.

The whole club v country thing was sorted in England years ago. We'll see the fallout in 2016 after the current agreement ends to see if it continues.

[butterfingers]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

i assume you are trying to be rude?

oink oink!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

TJ you say the PRL will be the losers. That's hubris. You don't know that for certain.

You seem to overestimate the importance of the Pro12 countries in the HC. You seem to think that they are more important than the English and French. Your hubris will be your downfall.

6,6,8 would be my offer.

beshocked, on the contrary, I think that TJ is pointing out that nobody gets a 'European' competition without representation from all the major European exponents of rugby? So a Celto-Italian competition without the FrAnglos is no more European than a FrAnglo competition without the Celto-Italians, and for either side to believe otherwise is, in my view, very foolish

[itsallabouttheincentives]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

i assume you are trying to be rude?

hard for me to offended when Piggy is the only grown-up voice on the island, who prefers rules and order, to chaos and killing.

i dont wear glasses either

[itsallabouttheincentives]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

i assume you are trying to be rude?

oink oink!

wait, i'm having an asthma attack...

[Guest]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

total red herring but anyway...PRL debt, even including 1-off new stadium projects etc, will be handled very nicely by their BT contract.

and in what way did i exaggerate? a metaphor is not an exaggeration. chips falling where they may refers metaphorically, and rather elegantly, to the fact that after they fall, which appears inevitable, they can be rebuilt anew into something different.

What contract? Are you one of the very few to know exactly what the details of the contract are? Is there a caveat attached? For example; is it conditional on there actually being a European competition? Or are BT happy enough to give money away on a much reduced version, or even a complete absence of any European competition at all?

What hyperbole? All of your comment is exaggerated guesswork, and perhaps wishful thinking.

[HammerofThunor]

It's not supposed to be a European Cup. It's the Rugby Super Dooper Cup (or something like that). For the super rich meglomaniacs and they're less wealthy guests.

[beshocked]

Its the PRL who have overplayed it and are isolated without even the support of the RFU.  You will see.  They have not been able to get a split in the Rabo unions and are increasingly huffing and puffing to no avail

You really think might is right should rule?  you are prepared to see a european rugby set up where the gulf between the top and the bottom increases?  a 6N with semi pro scots / Italians  playing?

Yes they have called the bluff of the PRL and a bluff it has turned out to be.  without the rabo unions there is no european cup.  without the PRL teams there still is one albeit diminished

This is what you hope. Unfortunately for you, you'll probably be wrong again.

A lot of Pro12 supporters didn't think the English and French clubs are on the same side. They are.

You think the RFU will not back the PRL. I think RFU will support the PRL.

The RFU will do what best suits them. Upsetting the PRL does not help the RFU.

It's the Pro12 sides huffing and puffing.

Pro12 clubs: You can't do this and that. You are bluffing.

English and French clubs: Yes we can and will. We are not bluffing.

[HammerofThunor]

lord of the flies isnt too far off the mark either...

That's for this board not the rugby itself. I know who I've got in mind for Piggy  

i assume you are trying to be rude?

oink oink!

You wish.

[LordDowlais]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect... This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could end up feeling the affects of this.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Its not me that is lying about the money of the HC.  How much do you think a competition without the Rabo unions is worth?  Not much at all.  Its the competition as a whole that generates the money - not the french or english clubs.  they have nothing to sell without the opposition to make the tournamnet

yes, I agree, and I think that is the way it will go too... Its not over yet ... and the wider European market is too attractive to ignore.

the only point that matters is that PRL/LNR can survive without HC. therefore they are stonger financially and from a negotiating position. and lets see what 2 years of a tournament without Eng,Fr (and also without Sky whose deal i guarantee you includes all 6 nations participating) clubs does to the economics of Celtic clubs shall we?

Unfortunately for the HC, the Rabo clubs have overplayed their hand. They had many chances to make a deal and have failed. More fool them for calling the bluff of a very angry PRL/LNR.

let the chips fall where they may.

Hyperbole much? Can the PRL survive without Euro competition? I'm not at all convinced. What would be the collective dept of PRL just now? The LNR? Yep, I can see how they can. At least in the short-term.

total red herring but anyway...PRL debt, even including 1-off new stadium projects etc, will be handled very nicely by their BT contract.

and in what way did i exaggerate? a metaphor is not an exaggeration. chips falling where they may refers metaphorically, and rather elegantly, to the fact that after they fall, which appears inevitable, they can be rebuilt anew into something different.

What contract? Are you one of the very few to know exactly what the details of the contract are? Is there a caveat attached? For example; is it conditional on there actually being a European competition? Or are BT happy enough to give money away on a much reduced version, or even a complete absence of any European competition at all?

What hyperbole? All of your comment is exaggerated guesswork, and perhaps wishful thinking.

guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out.

[LordDowlais]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect... This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could end up feeling the affects of this..

[butterfingers]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

[LordDowlais]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

+1:clap: 

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

+1:clap: 

the anti-english sentiment on here is a bit depressing. can everyone please remember that LNR started this process off, and has been in lockstep with PRL since.

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