Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

The financial outlook is changing anyway.

Celtic Rugby have a Sky deal in place for next season, with an estimated 50% overall increase in TV income, which I believe would be shared equally. I expect that will give quite an uplift over the BBC Alba deal. That info came from a Walesonline article to the best of my memory - I'm open to correction.

PRL are already benefitting from their new BT Sport TV deal (the domestic element) which is said to be quite lucrative. The salary cap hasn't yet been increased on the back of that.

LNR are said to be likely to renegotiate their domestic TV deal with a likely significant uplift.

To look at Euro central income from 6 weekends (sometimes more) in isolation to the remaining 22 weekends (sometimes more) gives a distorted view. To look at central income alone in isolation to income from home games also distorts.

There may be a difference between the English salary cap and the Scots salary budgets, but is it really a gulf?

There is a gulf between the Scots salary budget and the French salary cap - is the proposed relatively small increase in that gulf from euro income going to make a significant difference? Probably not as much as an increase to their domestic TV income.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Yup - the HC money is very important to the SRU.  thats why the prl is so hated for their actions - its holding a gun to the head.

so sign up to the new euro whatsit tournament, be the first union to move and make sure you get as good terms as you can. why not explore joining an expanded AP? nothing should be off the table. SRU has to look after its own interests.

[TJ]

Because the BT deal will not improve the situation for the scots. It will make it worse. If al the unions stick together we can get a better deal

[lostinwales]

Because the BT deal will not improve the situation for the scots.  It will make it worse. If al the unions stick together we can get a better deal

If only it were so but current evidence suggests they cant.

[TJ]

Looks like they are. the only ones not to come out against the PRL is rthe RFU who have been very neurtal. the PRL have no backers

[itsallabouttheincentives]

that is a gigantic gamble, with massive downside if it doesnt work out for IRFU, SRU, WRU. in a negotiation, that's a bit of a handicap if the other side has alternative options.

[TJ]

If the BT deal goes thru I expect the PRL salary cap to soar. at the moment the scots teams have budget similar to the lessor english teams

[TJ]

the gamblers are the PRL and its backfiring spectacularly.

[Scrumpy]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

[TJ]

Scrumpy - at least that is an honest assessment. a horrid thought but you understand the question.

so to you the PRL getting a good deal for the english clubs at the expense of the the scots and others competitivenesses is a price worth paying

[itsallabouttheincentives]

yes the PRL/LNR are gambling. but my point is the downside (no HC, no euro thingy cup) for them is much more manageable. that's what i mean about the celtic negotiating position being weak. SRU are holding the gun to their own head.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

in more graphic terms: PRL are cutting their noses off to spite their faces, SRU are cutting their heads and limbs off.

[Scrumpy]

Scrumpy - at least that is an honest assessment.  a horrid thought but you understand the question.

so to you the PRL getting a good deal for the english clubs at the expense of the the scots and others competitivenesses is a price worth paying

But thats their job!
Their job isn't to worry about Scottish rugby (club or International) which as far as I can see is on it's death bed.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

i am a free marketeer. a club competition should not be the place for inter-national transfers. the place for that is the 6Nations. if national unions want to subsidise scotland and italy's unions then that is great, go ahead, just dont expect the commercially run clubs to subsidise through the HC back door.

the game has gone professional. can't pretend it hasnt. and professional=commercial.

[Taffineastbourne]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

So only the strongest will survive?I don't think England v France playing each other repeatedly will pack in the viewers so the TV companies will turn their backs and the "winners" will reap what they have sown.Seems a very shortsighted viewpoint to me. 

[maestegmafia]

Yup - the HC money is very important to the SRU.  thats why the prl is so hated for their actions - its holding a gun to the head.

so sign up to the new euro whatsit tournament, be the first union to move and make sure you get as good terms as you can. why not explore joining an expanded AP? nothing should be off the table. SRU has to look after its own interests.

Which is why there is no chance the SRU would hand over their interests to someone else like the PRL to run...!

[TJ]

interestingly the US football despite their rampant free market ideology actually works hard to provide a level playing field. winning teams get less opportunity to recruit ( the draft sytem) and get harder fixture lists. Professional sport and begger take your neighbour are not necessarily the same.

again at least you have made your position clear. Its fine for the PRL to enrich themselves at the cost of a competitive HC and 6N.

[HammerofThunor]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

So only the strongest will survive?I don't think England v France playing each other repeatedly will pack in the viewers so the TV companies will turn their backs and the "winners" will reap what they have sown.Seems a very shortsighted viewpoint to me. 

It's Hersh, what did you expect?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

PRL wont be running anything. they will set it up as everyone else is allegedly still part of ERC, but it will be 1 vote per club. how is that PRL-run?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

espnscrum.com:

International Rugby Board chairman Bernard Lapasset has come out in support of European Rugby Cup Ltd saying any future European tournament must be Union-run.

Premiership Rugby, the umbrella body representing the leading English clubs, and its French counterparts, the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR), confirmed earlier this month that they plan to form a new cross-border competition for the 2014-15 season having failed to negotiate changes to the structure of the Heineken Cup and also the qualification criteria and the distribution of revenue.

ERC, the organiser of both the Heineken Cup and the second tier Amlin Challenge Cup, has scheduled a fresh round of negotiations for October 23 and have appointed an independent mediator in a bid to find a suitable compromise but the English and French clubs have no interest in dealing with the union-dominated ERC and are determined to push on with their own plans for what will be called the Rugby Champions Cup.

Any new tournament will require the approval of the respective unions and while Premiership Rugby remain confident of attracting the support of the Rugby Football Union, the French Rugby Federation (FFR) have signalled their intent to block an non-ERC endorsed competition.

ERC chairman Jean-Pierre Lux slammed the breakaway competition and the stakeholders for showing a lack of respect and the organisation seemingly has the backing of the IRB who helped the organisation appoint an independent mediator last Friday to sort the mess.

Lapasset told AFP the game's governing body "will ensure we have a European competition which fulfils its name, which is not confiscated by some nations but has a real international interest.

"The IRB will defend this principle: not a privatisation of a competition in the interest of some people," he said, adding that "unions maintain pre-eminence over the leagues... the unions must remain masters of the game."

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

Honestly, Scrumpy, you do yourself NO favours talking about stuff about which you patently know little - please desist

[itsallabouttheincentives]

interestingly the US football despite their rampant free market ideology actually works hard to provide a level playing field.  winning teams get less opportunity to recruit ( the draft sytem) and get harder fixture lists.  Professional sport and begger take your neighbour are not necessarily the same.

again at least you have made your position clear.  Its fine for the PRL to enrich themselves at the cost of a competitive HC and 6N.

you cant compare the US (single country) where all clubs are commercially owned and have equal votes and representation and decide how to run the league themselves, with the mess that is ERC with different nations unions vs clubs with lopside voting/qualification/money and conflicting motives (profit vs national game). bad analogy. that is a canard.

[Totalflanker]

in more graphic terms: PRL are cutting their noses off to spite their faces, SRU are cutting their heads and limbs off.

Totally agree, however if the PRL gains the control they want with the new setup, the Celtic and Italian unions will never have any future say in what weapon they will get to chop their requisite part of their bodies off with when it comes to renegotiations next time - and its that slippery slope that I think makes them content to lose an arm or a leg this time around.

Without compromise on both sides there can be no way forward - financially for the celts and Italians nor IRB sanctioned event for the PRL.

[the-goon]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

Fair enough, if that is your opinion. Clearly we have fundimental differences on how we want our game to progress.

There really is no point in continuing these discussions is there? No one will back down, just have to wait and see how the cards fall on this....

[lostinwales]

The game at a Pro-level in Scotland is dead, the SRU signed their own death warrent by only funding two Pro teams, maybe they should pull out of the Rabo and and set up a Pro league in Scotland to allow the game to grow.
 
Why should PRL worry about what happens to the game in Scotland, their job is to get a good deal for the English clubs.
 
The argument 'oh it will weaken the 6 nations' so what!
Maybe Scotland should pull out of the 6 nations and accept defeat, I'm sure Romania, Georgia or Russia would replace them.

So only the strongest will survive?I don't think England v France playing each other repeatedly will pack in the viewers so the TV companies will turn their backs and the "winners" will reap what they have sown.Seems a very shortsighted viewpoint to me. 

It's Hersh, what did you expect?

I dont believe it is Hersh. Hersh wummed but at least he was often subtle and could be funny

[Luckless Pedestrian]

PRL wont be running anything.

Agreed - because this proposed Rugby Champions Cup will never materialise. The FFR have made it clear the French clubs won't be participating, which leaves a handful of English clubs and no one else. The RFU will be saved having to risk the wrath of the IRB by backing the Cup because there'll be no Cup for them to back.

[Artful_Dodger]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game? If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

[Irish Londoner]

Does anyone know (and I mean KNOW - as in figures) what the PRL Deal regarding European Rugby is worth to PRL CLubs, TOP14 Clubs and RABO clubs and how it would be covered in countries where BT Sport are not a broadcaster?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

i agree. just because it doesnt get approved doesnt mean the structure wont be as i described. and i agree it looks unlikely to get approved. and when LNR decline ERC leaving rab12 x2 competitions for next year? lets focus on the future. HC is dead. what now?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Does anyone know (and I mean KNOW - as in figures) what the PRL Deal regarding European Rugby is worth to PRL CLubs, TOP14 Clubs and RABO clubs and how it would be covered in countries where BT Sport are not a broadcaster?

No. only PRL and RFU and BT know. and they are explicitly not sharing the terms nor are they allowed to.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

[beshocked]

TJ you keep banging on about Edinburgh's HC semi final - that's 1 semi final in 17 HC tournaments. That's not a good return. Last season also showed it was a flash in the pan.

Plus you forget that in the Pro12 that year Edinburgh came 11th. Guess what - Edinburgh auto qualified for the HC next season and were consequently humiliated.

I don't think it's good when one of the weakest sides in Europe thinks they have a divine right to be in Europe's premier competition.

Lack of HC doesn't seem to have harmed Gwent Dragons. On the contrary they have started the Pro12 season strongly.

The problem is the Scots in particular are complacent - believing that HC rugby should be given to them on a platter. No effort is needed on their part.

[maestegmafia]

Does anyone know (and I mean KNOW - as in figures) what the PRL Deal regarding European Rugby is worth to PRL CLubs, TOP14 Clubs and RABO clubs and how it would be covered in countries where BT Sport are not a broadcaster?

No. only PRL and RFU and BT know. and they are explicitly not sharing the terms nor are they allowed to.

If only they know then why did you come to this conclusion below?

PRL wont be running anything. they will set it up as everyone else is allegedly still part of ERC, but it will be 1 vote per club. how is that PRL-run?

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

If the BT deal goes thru I expect the PRL salary cap to soar.  at the moment the scots teams have  budget similar to the lessor english teams

I expected the cap to rise this season after the domestic BT Sports deal kicked in, but it hasn't. From all the gubbins floating around, it seems that the Euro increase for the English might be around £1m per team. It's not peanuts, but that would be the most that the cap would rise due solely to the proposed Euro deal.

I expect it may rise by about half a million in due course, given that most English teams have been making a loss and some have priorities other than buying a winning team. We'll see, or perhaps we won't.

On another matter, do you think that Richie Gray, Tom Heathcote, Kelly Brown (and others) playing away hinders the Scottish international team, or improves it by broadening their experience?

[maestegmafia]

If the English are without both the new tournament or the HC, how much money will Mark McCafferty have lost the English game?  If they aren't bringing in any money from any European compeitition...?

they will be in a much better state financially than many other nations. which is why they feel they have the strength to pursue this course.

But surely BT will be very unhappy...?

They wanted to "buy european rugby" and it looks like they will not be allowed... The PRL must have made them promises that they couldn't keep. As pointed out by numerous people today that whole BT deal could go very sour.

With regards financing it really doesn't matter if you are better off than other unions, it matters that you don't run into debt continuously or go broke. It is a competition of the game of rugby, and not who can find and spend the most money...!

[itsallabouttheincentives]

because thats what PRL said the voting structure would be. lots of quotes online. i cant post links. BT deal everyone has kept shtum about.

[rodders]

What odds Heineken taking over the pro12 sponsorship from Rabo?....

[itsallabouttheincentives]

this whole thing is about 1 club 1 vote. keep up.

[Scrumpy]

again at least you have made your position clear.  Its fine for the PRL to enrich themselves at the cost of a competitive HC and 6N.

 

But that’s their job it's not that difficult to understand, the HC contract has ended if you want to blame anyone blame ERC for allowing it to get to this situation. The 6nations will continue and Scotland will be in the bottom half as they simply don't have enough pro teams to allow players to develop.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

What odds Heineken taking over the pro12 sponsorship from Rabo?....

will have a nice symmetry to it. heineken cup and heineken league. not sure about commercial value though!

[maestegmafia]

What odds Heineken taking over the pro12 sponsorship from Rabo?....

I would drink to that... They have been excellent sponsors of the European Cup for nearly 20 years.

[Guest]

What odds Heineken taking over the pro12 sponsorship from Rabo?....

Not likely, but I would be absolutely delighted if that were so. Although if the HEC as it is now ceases to be next year then who knows?..

[beshocked]

TJ the Scottish clubs have had 17 years of automatic HC rugby yet have not made the most out of it. I have a bit more sympathy for Zebre than the Scottish clubs but like Edinburgh I think Zebre would win more matches in a 2nd tier competition.

At least with Treviso for example they've improved.

You want to keep the status quo when a restructure is sorely needed.

[TJ]

Beshocked - it is true that the scots teams have not done well in the HC. However making it harder for them to do well will not help to strengthen the game up here.

I can accept some form of qualification 1 from each nation and 4 to qualify from the league. this makes it plausible that the second scot team ( and / or second italian / welsh would have a decent chance of qualifying. 6 teams means it would be virtually impossible as a team that did not qualify would find it impossible to recruit and retain players.

It all comes down to the basic decision - do yo want a cross boarder set up in the NH that helps the weaker teams and helps competitive NH rugby develop or do you accept the loss of competitive Scots and Italians as a price worth paying for the enrichemet of the PRL teams?

[TJ]

On another matter, do you think that Richie Gray, Tom Heathcote, Kelly Brown (and others) playing away hinders the Scottish international team, or improves it by broadening their experience?

for some its been good, for some its been bad. a short stint works well but we have seen first choice scotland players sitting on the bench for english clubs - thats not helpful.

[lostinwales]

Beshocked - it is true that the scots teams have not done well in the HC.  However making it harder for them to do well will not help to strengthen the game up here.

I can accept some form of qualification  1 from each nation and 4 to qualify from the league.  this makes it plausible that the second scot team ( and / or second italian / welsh would have a decent chance of qualifying.  6 teams means it would be virtually impossible as a team that did not qualify would find it impossible to recruit and retain players.

It all comes down to the basic decision - do yo want a cross boarder set up in the NH that helps the weaker teams and helps  competitive NH rugby develop or do you accept the loss of competitive Scots and Italians as a price worth paying for the enrichemet of the PRL teams?

Obviously I am a fool (And being English, a husband and a father I am used to taking the blame for everything) but I thought thats what the tier2/Amlin is going to be. I think it could be a very interesting competition without the usual suspects dominating.

[Scrumpy]

 a short stint works well but we have seen first choice scotland players sitting on the bench for english clubs - thats not helpful.

So what should be done, PRL bring a rule in so that Scots have to start Aviva games as if they don't it will weaken the Scottish National team?

[TJ]

No - the second tier / amlin will always be the poor relation. would you be happy if you wer told that 3 of the 6 teams the prl have in the top rank will be put in the second with no chance of getting back up?

But its not just this - its also the money. the BT deal will allow the rich to become richer thus again making it harder for the lessor teams to compete adn they will be pried out of the market.

[TJ]

 a short stint works well but we have seen first choice scotland players sitting on the bench for english clubs - thats not helpful.

So what should be done, PRL bring a rule in so that Scots have to start Aviva games as if they don't it will weaken the Scottish National team?

NO - simply set up the competitions so that the lessor teams have a fair chance of being competative both on and off the feild.

[Scrumpy]

I'll tell you what you sit at home and I'll send you 40% of my wages.
 
That doesn't seem fair or right does it?
 
Yet you expect English and French clubs to hand over money to weaker teams and then have to earn the right to be in the HC whilst those teams get given HC places for free!
 
That doesn't seem fair or right, does it?

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