Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[Guest]

The new Rugby Champions Cup will surely hit back on their official twitter account soon...

https://twitter.com/rugbychampionsc

"They face financial oblivion if they won't cover our losses" Excellent stuff

[tecphobe]

Do we really want property developers etc. deciding the fate of world rugby?
Why not get in a few Arab oil sheikhs and some Russian Mafia?

[The Saint]

Accounts like that, and the Owen 'Faz' Farrell account make me wanna sign up to Twitter.

"they can only tweet from bt wifi NOT FROM SKY BROADBAND"  

[rodders]

Do we really want property developers etc. deciding the fate of world rugby?
Why not get in a few Arab oil sheikhs and some Russian Mafia?

Why not sure they run everything else.

[HammerofThunor]

Do we really want property developers etc. deciding the fate of world rugby?
Why not get in a few Arab oil sheikhs and some Russian Mafia?

And how exactly are they deciding the fate of world rugby?

[The Saint]

Because Europe isn't big enough. If they take over Europe... They'll wanna take over the world. Only Wales and rest of the Pro12 can stop them.
 

[wolfball]

The new Rugby Champions Cup will surely hit back on their official twitter account soon...

https://twitter.com/rugbychampionsc

This is my favorite:

Rugby Champions Cup ‏@rugbychampionsc 24 Sep
@lionsofficial its your last tour. We are taking over and forming the british and french lions

[The Great Aukster]

.

[tecphobe]

Do we really want property developers etc. deciding the fate of world rugby?
Why not get in a few Arab oil sheikhs and some Russian Mafia?

And how exactly are they deciding the fate of world rugby?

Because if they get control of European Rugby, International rugby is finnished

[broadlandboy]

There has been no mention of the ERC in the statements from the Unions. IMHO this is a negotiation stance for a new organisation for European Rugby.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Quite possibly, BroadlandBoy, and given what we know about the current ERC, that wouldn't pose a problem for most I would imagine - equally you won't find many that wish the PRL to run things either

[broadlandboy]

IMHO the PRL/LNR didn't want to run the Comp,remember they only left ERC after trying to get talks going about change but were told that was a no go. IIRC the PRL/LNR proposal is that each team gets a vote so as moxt Rabo teams are very strongly linked to theit Unions the Unions would still have a say,& as any cross border competition would need the Union's & IRB approval they would still have a Veto. The Unions wouldn't be telling them what to do but would have the power to stop them from doing it

[stub]

Yep - I hope that's what's happening. Be fascinating to see just how the control of European rugby is divided up if so. I imagine the PRL/LNR would see the removal of the ERC as a massive step forward. This could be a positive development....

[stub]

IMHO the PRL/LNR didn't want to run the Comp,remember they only left ERC after trying to get talks going about change but were told that was a no go. IIRC the PRL/LNR proposal is that each team gets a vote so as moxt Rabo teams are very strongly linked to theit Unions the Unions would still have a say,& as any cross border competition would need the Union's & IRB approval they would still have a Veto. The Unions wouldn't be telling them what to do but would have the power to stop them from doing it

+1
(probably wanted more influence though!)

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Yep - I hope that's what's happening. Be fascinating to see just how the control of European rugby is divided up if so. I imagine the PRL/LNR would see the removal of the ERC as a massive step forward. This could be a positive development....

stub, why massive? I imagine it will simply be replaced with another similar organisation, with the Celtic and Italian clubs represented (prob to a large extent) by their unions - such is the nature of the beast and of blazerdom!

[broadlandboy]

As, but with the PRL/LNR having a greater say not necessary running out right.
Could anybody sat that the ERC has done a good job or promoting rugby in europe (that does not include just the HEC)

[stub]

Yep - I hope that's what's happening. Be fascinating to see just how the control of European rugby is divided up if so. I imagine the PRL/LNR would see the removal of the ERC as a massive step forward. This could be a positive development....

stub, why massive?  I imagine it will simply be replaced with another similar organisation, with the Celtic and Italian clubs represented (prob to a large extent) by their unions - such is the nature of the beast and of blazerdom!

I see your point! But let's hope that in fact the ERC is replaced by something better - even if it's just a change of personalities with a different outlook. Even if fundamental voting rights don't change this could make a big difference.

[The Great Aukster]

Given that the PRL/LNR have zero chance of getting the support of the P12 Unions, and they are not stupid, a logical conclusion is that their agenda has been to withdraw from European competition all along. They can extend their 100% controlled domestic leagues and walk away from Europe blaming its demise on the intransigence of the Union dinosaurs.

[stub]

TGA - do you not think that there are compromises that could be made that could result in a HC v2? I'm not ready to completely give up on that just yet.

[Guest]

I like the statement from the Irish Union stating;
"The Irish Rugby Football Union clarify that its clubs (provinces) will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of theInternational Rugby Board (IRB) or the relevant national rugby unions."

Meanwhile the IRB have publicly stated they wont approve a competition that does not have the approval of the Unions.

Who blinks first ?!

Classic Rugby officialdom from a bunch of well connected old boys who somehow pass for administrators of the game.

[Guest]

I like the statement from the Irish Union stating;
"The Irish Rugby Football Union clarify that its clubs (provinces) will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of theInternational Rugby Board (IRB) or the relevant national rugby unions."

Meanwhile the IRB have publicly stated they wont approve a competition that does not have the approval of the Unions.

Who blinks first ?!

Classic Rugby officialdom from a bunch of well connected old boys who somehow pass for administrators of the game.

You don't think there just might be another way of interpreting that?........

[Intotouch]

H cup with a couple of French regional sides is likely. It might not be very good but it would go ahead. Maybe in a couple of years when the heads of the various groups change a compromise might happen.

[LeinsterFan4life]

H cup with a couple of French regional sides is likely. It might not be very good but it would go ahead. Maybe in a couple of years when the heads of the various groups change a compromise might happen.

All the french players can play in the regional teams, so the top 14 teams can get their wish of an all foreign player league. It will be cool to see the Basque and Catalan teams.

[Guest]

Of course, another interpretation is they are hedging their bets as the lawyers sharpen their pencils......

[Guest]

H cup with a couple of French regional sides is likely. It might not be very good but it would go ahead. Maybe in a couple of years when the heads of the various groups change a compromise might happen.

Who is to say that any regional sides entered wouldn't become strong sides, and sides that consist of mainly French players? With all the talk of the French national side weakening as a result of the club game, maybe this could help answer any problems, if those problems actually exist.

They should enter any regional sides into the Rabo

[stub]

Of course,  another interpretation is they are hedging their bets as the lawyers sharpen their pencils......

I think hedging too....

Also a united front is obviously the strongest bargaining position.

[stub]

After the announcement of the Welsh federations, Scottish, Irish and Italian not to allow their representatives to participate in the RCC, dissenting competition created in margin of the ERC and the European Cup with the Top 14 clubs of the Premiership, English, and led so that it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to aggregate Celtic competition (RCC teams (clubs, provinces, frnachises)(, Rugby Champions Cup) they come to create, the leaders of English clubs involved in this process of dissent, would have, according to our sources, contacted the southern hemisphere provinces. We talk about, as a first step, the Cheetahs in Bloemfontein (South Africa) and the Western Force, based in Perth. A New Zealand province would also be on the ranks.


With a selection of the Pacific?

The IRB will deny that national teams competing next season, the Rugby Champions Cup, which has no legal existence.  To thicken the number of teams in the running for next season, the English leaders of the RCC imagine also invite several national teams at their own expense. One speaks of Georgia, the Portugal, the Russia, the Romania and Spain with regard to Europe. In the southern hemisphere, the Pacific Islands are in the running. Fiji seem to hold the rope. Only problem, it is necessary that these nations receive the endorsement of the IRB, which is far from be enacted, according to Mr. Bernard Lapasset, president of the International Board, which has appointed a mediator to an agreement among the parties (ERC, French and English clubs Celtic and Italy federations). It is possible that a selection of the islands of the Pacific (Samoa, Tonga and Fiji) is more able to integrate the RCC.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/La-rcc-ouvre-les-portes/404362


From L'equipe - sorry about the dodgy translation again.

I seem to remember a thread earlier when it was reporting that the French were suggesting this...

[TJ]

There is no question of restraint of trade. the IRB and the rest of the unions still offer a euro cup for the PRL teams to play in. Thus the players still get their chance to earn their living.

[Welshmushroom]

Interesting reading todays news reels. McCafferty says he hopes the RFU back them. He does not want to see them go to court. Interestingly enough the PRL failed to keep London Welsh out of the Aviva Premiership when they went to court over it. I wouldn't be surprised if they screw this legal case up as well given their track record. Even if they win, I don't see any winners.

Elsewhere Sky have indicated they will sue if the ERC disbands. Given Sky's track record I would imagine they can win their case. So actually the likely hood is that the ERC must continue regardless. French and English wont be at the negotiating meeting in October so that rules them out completely at this stage.

If ERC are forced to continue I find it unlikely they will sanction another European Tournament. Even if that goes to court, England and France will only earn the right to play themselves as I wouldn't see any obvious candidates joining them.

At this stage it could be there are 2 European tournaments.

[nathan]

There is no question of restraint of trade.  the IRB and the rest of the unions still offer a euro cup for the PRL teams to play in.  Thus the players still get their chance to earn their living.

But if they didn't allow the new competition, then it is a restraint of trade.

[nathan]

Interesting reading todays news reels.  McCafferty says he hopes the RFU back them.  He does not want to see them go to court.  Interestingly enough the PRL failed to keep London Welsh out of the Aviva Premiership when they went to court over it.  I wouldn't be surprised if they screw this legal case up as well given their track record.  Even if they win, I don't see any winners.

Elsewhere Sky have indicated they will sue if the ERC disbands.  Given Sky's track record I would imagine they can win their case.  So actually the likely hood is that the ERC must continue regardless.  French and English wont be at the negotiating meeting in October so that rules them out completely at this stage.  

If ERC are forced to continue I find it unlikely they will sanction another European Tournament.  Even if that goes to court, England and France will only earn the right to play themselves as I wouldn't see any obvious candidates joining them.  

At this stage it could be there are 2 European tournaments.  

Wasn't the London Welsh thing to do with the RFU and not the PRL? Also if the ERC disbands, who exactly would Sky be taking legal action against?

[TJ]

There is no question of restraint of trade.  the IRB and the rest of the unions still offer a euro cup for the PRL teams to play in.  Thus the players still get their chance to earn their living.

But if they didn't allow the new competition, then it is a restraint of trade.

No its not as there still is a euro cup for the players to play in. No restraint of trade.

[nathan]

There is no question of restraint of trade.  the IRB and the rest of the unions still offer a euro cup for the PRL teams to play in.  Thus the players still get their chance to earn their living.

But if they didn't allow the new competition, then it is a restraint of trade.

No its not as there still is a euro cup for the players to play in.  No restraint of trade.  

But there forcing them to play in one European Cup and no other, it's a restraint.

[TJ]

Nope = restraint of trade is preventing someone from earning a living. This does not do that. Banning the RCC if there was no HC would be restraint of trade.

Also the PRL players would be free to set up a breakaway - just as the unions could then sanction the players by refusing them international selection. again no restraint of trade. the threatening of legal action is more empty posturing and more signs of desperation.

[TJ]

And the RFU would not have to give the prl teams any of the money they curently do. No threat of legal action over that.

[broadlandboy]

A group with self interest stop others from setting up a potential competitor,sounds like restraint of trade to me, bordering on cartel,something the EU courts do not like

[Notch]

I like the statement from the Irish Union stating;
"The Irish Rugby Football Union clarify that its clubs (provinces) will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of theInternational Rugby Board (IRB) or the relevant national rugby unions."

Meanwhile the IRB have publicly stated they wont approve a competition that does not have the approval of the Unions.

Who blinks first ?!

Classic Rugby officialdom from a bunch of well connected old boys who somehow pass for administrators of the game.

No... both the IRFU and IRB are referring to the RFU and FFR. Without the blessing of the English and French Unions any new tournament involving English and French teams has no legitimacy in the eyes of the rugby world. No-one is saying that they have to be in charge, or even involved in the day to day, but without their ok there is no tournament to join as far as the Celts and Italians are concerned, and the IRB will simply block any tournament that the Unions don't sanction.

[TJ]

A group with self interest stop others from setting up a potential competitor,sounds like restraint of trade to me, bordering on cartel,something the EU courts do not like

Thats the point - you cannot and do not stop them setting up the RCC - just refuse to allow anyone who plays in it or refs in it any support from the RFU and any chance of an international place. NOr do you prevent them from earning a living as you have an alternative ready and waiting.

[broadlandboy]

restraint of trade is not about earning a living but limiting(restraint) someones ability to carry out what they do(trade)

[Notch]

A group with self interest stop others from setting up a potential competitor,sounds like restraint of trade to me, bordering on cartel,something the EU courts do not like

I don't think they are being prevented from setting it up, it just won't be recognised as part of rugby union. It won't be an IRB sanctioned tournament. No-one is stopping them from seceding from the game entirely which is what they'd have to do if they wanted to defy the IRB. Everybody hopes that that doesn't happen but they do have the option.

[broadlandboy]

As for saying you can only play in our competition that sounds like a cartel

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Interesting reading todays news reels.  McCafferty says he hopes the RFU back them.  He does not want to see them go to court.  Interestingly enough the PRL failed to keep London Welsh out of the Aviva Premiership when they went to court over it.  I wouldn't be surprised if they screw this legal case up as well given their track record.  Even if they win, I don't see any winners.

Elsewhere Sky have indicated they will sue if the ERC disbands.  Given Sky's track record I would imagine they can win their case.  So actually the likely hood is that the ERC must continue regardless.  French and English wont be at the negotiating meeting in October so that rules them out completely at this stage.  

If ERC are forced to continue I find it unlikely they will sanction another European Tournament.  Even if that goes to court, England and France will only earn the right to play themselves as I wouldn't see any obvious candidates joining them.  

At this stage it could be there are 2 European tournaments.  

Wasn't the London Welsh thing to do with the RFU and not the PRL? Also if the ERC disbands, who exactly would Sky be taking legal action against?

 
From the Guardian:
 
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/26/premiership-french-erc-heineken-cup-rugby
 
"The French and English clubs want ERC to fold because it would mean that its contractual obligations, such as the television contract to Sky, which clashes with the BT deal signed by Premiership Rugby last year, would perish with it. That said, the directors of ERC, which include representatives from Premiership Rugby and LNR, have been given legal advice about the potential consequences to them of winding up the organising body if it is a means of evading legally binding commitments.
 
It is one reason why Premiership Rugby and LNR have decided not to attend any more ERC meetings and, significantly, they served notice they were pulling out before the contract extension with Sky was signed. They are prepared to talk to the RaboDirect unions directly, with McCafferty pointing out that no one's interests would be served if there was no European club rugby next season."
 
 
So the RFU, as one of the continuing directors of ERC, would be in the line of fire of Sky's legal team. Rob Andrew is RFU's ERC director - if he got sued personally, that would be quite a laugh.

It probably raises the chance of RFU putting forward Championship clubs as a contractual obligation strategy.

[TJ]

Cartel is price fixing.

It is not beyond the wit of the various unions to make it watertight.  The threat of legal action is a sign of how desperate they have become. They have lost the argument, they have not been able to create any splits, they do not have the support of the unions, they have no competition to put on, they have totally misread the situation and the opposition of the other unions and those of us that understand the value of things that cannot be measured in money

[stub]

I don't think legal action is necessarily a sign of desperation TJ. It's just the way that sometimes things have to get done unfortunately.

[nathan]

A group with self interest stop others from setting up a potential competitor,sounds like restraint of trade to me, bordering on cartel,something the EU courts do not like

Thats the point - you cannot and do not stop them setting up the RCC - just refuse to allow anyone who plays in it or refs in it any support from the RFU and any chance of an international place.  NOr do you prevent them from earning a living as you have an alternative ready and waiting.

but that isn't what you said? you said it wasn't a a restraint of trade because they still have the European cup.

[TJ]

Its the threat of legal action along with other statements shows how desperate they are

it really does amuse me the way Craig says there is no European competition apart from the RCC - what he means is no European competition with the PRL clubs in it. His RCC is not a proper European cup either anyway

The bluster and threats are getting more and more desperate by the day. to me its clear Craig thought the others would roll over and had no plan B to deal with it when they diod not.

[Intotouch]

Cartel is price fixing.

It is not beyond the wit of the various unions to make it watertight.  The threat of legal action is a sign of how desperate they have become. They have lost the argument, they have not been able to create any splits, they do not have the support of the unions, they have no competition to put on, they have totally misread the situation and the opposition of the other unions and those of us that understand the value of things that cannot be measured in money

I don't see it as a sign of desperation either. I see it as a sign that they might get there way through other means. This may yet work for them. It will take a while though. The French can afford the wait.

[nathan]

Its the threat of legal action along with other statements shows how desperate they are

it really does amuse me the way Craig says there is no European competition apart from the RCC - what he means is no European competition with the PRL clubs in it.  His RCC is not a proper European cup either anyway

The bluster and threats are getting more and more desperate by the day.  to me its clear Craig thought the others would roll over and had no plan B to deal with it when they diod not.

To be fair TJ, they might not have a plan b yet. We only hear whats in the media which 99% probably isn't true and is just political mumbo jumbo!

[nathan]

Cartel is price fixing.

It is not beyond the wit of the various unions to make it watertight.  The threat of legal action is a sign of how desperate they have become. They have lost the argument, they have not been able to create any splits, they do not have the support of the unions, they have no competition to put on, they have totally misread the situation and the opposition of the other unions and those of us that understand the value of things that cannot be measured in money

crikey, to think you learnt all that by reading whats in the media! lol

[TJ]

So they wait while we go ahead in expanding a European cup without them.

Its an obvious sign of desperation along with the leaking of Rabo teams supposedly interested in joining and the nonsense about SH teams joining.

No body wants to play with them while they set the rules and they are whining and screaming and threatening to hold their breath until they go blue.

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