Welsh Squad for Autumn Tests?

First topic message reminder :

I'm not 100% sure of how many players are allowed in the team. I think it's about 35 though. So whilst considering injuries and and choosing players on form, this is what i think the team should be:

Props:
Gethin Jenkins
Paul James
Rhys Gill
Adam Jones
Samson Lee
Scott Andrews

Hookers:
Hibbard
Ken Owens
Matthew Rees

Locks:
Alyn Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies
Andrew Coombs

Flankers:
Dan Lydiate
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Ryan Jones
Aaron Shingler

Number 8:
Toby Falateu
Morgan Allen

Scrum Half:
Mike Phillips
Richie Rees
Gareth Davies

Outside Half:
Dan Biggar
Rhys Priestland
Rhys Patchell

Centres:
Johnathan Davies
Ashley Beck
Scott Williams
Andrew Bishop

Wings:
George North
Alex Cuthbert
Eli Walker

Fullback:
Leigh Halpfenny
Liam Williams

Not Available (so far):
Craig Mitchell
Jamie Roberts

I think players like Morgan Allen, Andrew Bishop, Rhys Gill and Samson Lee all deserve at least a start against Tonga.
Rhys has been sharing the one jersey with Vunipolo but i have watched him once and he was solid, I hear he has been part of a strong Saracens scrum though. Plus Ryan Bevington hasn't really done much for the Ospreys so far this season.
8 for me with Wales is a big worry at the moment because with Toby injured and Ryan seen ore a a versatile substitute, however that's still only 1 cover for our starting 8. Morgan is young, fresh, strong and a great talents who is in form with the Ospreys. We need to start bringing youny 8's like Allen and Baker into the set up for the future. I mean Ryan isn't going to last much longer, we need someone know to start to challenge Toby and be a descent back up.
Bishop - is one of the most under rated players in Britain. Such a strong defender, on par with Barett in my eyes. A great player who is safe and has that experience.
Samson Lee -Been the best tightheads out of all the regions so far this season  (Adam has only just come back). A strong scrummager and would give the Tongan a good run for their money. Surly the successor for Adam when he retires. Obviously Adam to start against South Africa, Argentina and Australia but would rather Scott on the bench for those games. As much as i want Samson to shine NOW, he still needs to be bled into the set up first. SO one appearance against Tonga would be great.
Lastly, Patchell like Samson is still young and needs small steps into the set up. I think one appearance of the bench for Tonga would be nice for him. However we all know what can happen when we rush a young 10 into the spotlight. So even though i want him in the team for the experience, i hope were not forced to play him too much this Autumn.

To be honest if Cuthbert was fit this autumn and Byrne was in his 2008/2009 form I would love to see a back line of:

15. Byrne
14. Cuthbert
13. North
12. Davies
11. Halfpenny

Anyone know the kick-off time for Wales versus South Africa? Please say it's 14:30... Need to be somewhere at 5.

[quote="The Saint"]Anyone know the kick-off time for Wales versus South Africa? Please say it's 14:30... Need to be somewhere at 5. [/quote

South Africa--- sat 9th Nov 17.30
Argentina------sat 16 Nov 14.30
Tonga---------Fri 22nd Nov 19.30
Australia-------Sat 30th Nov 17.00

Anyone know if the players based outside Wales will be available for the Oz game?

Cardiff Dave wrote:Anyone know if the players based outside Wales will be available for the Oz game?

By all accounts North, Lydiate and Roberts have it written into their contracts.

So does Charteris but not sure about Hook, James or Phillips but again in Hook and Phillips' case there has generally been a better relationship between the French clubs and the WRU.

That's a decent enough squad imo, apart from omitting Rhys Gill. Gatland deserves credit for developing some squad depth for Wales during his tenure.

Hopefully Wales will take some momentum from the Lions tour.*

Good luck in the series

* I will support a 'Lions' nation against NZ, SA and Aus; probably Samoa too, who often set out to take people's heads off!

In a related matter, Lee Byrne shows off his fluency in the art of ass-speak. It was warned back when Gatland first came in that non-regional players would find it difficult to gain access to the squad, why can't Byrne and the other guys who picked French paychecks over national representation just accept that?

Byrne has been playing well according to reports on the T14 games on Planet Rugby.

Byrne has been playing well.

The problem he's got is that he's behind

Halfpenny (the incumbent)
Williams (the future?)
Hook (the more versatile)

Still can't believe that 1/2p is still only 24. He's been around forever!

Maybe so but does that justify it? I certainly can't see him displacing Halfpenny from the starting XV and as somebody who was informed long before he left of the consequences for doing so Byrne really has little to complain about and certainly nobody to blame but himself. His less than subtle implication, in his own opinion, that he should be in there just strikes me as completely lacking in class.

Cyril,

Spot on in my book to, last season I could see the value he would have added and if injury hit then ok but the ones named are also all on form and 2 are in Wales which is a big plus.

Fair point Knowsit


Having gone on the Lions tour (with an Irish tour), Halfpenny was pretty much eveeyone's man of the tour.

Keep him at full back; he is the best cover/last ditch defender in world rugby. And a class kicker.

I would take an on form Byrne over Halfpenny at fullback any day, Halfpenny's positioning is immaculate, but he doesn't run support lines or counter attacking angles as well as Byrne(except for that Lions 3rd test). Hes just spent a lot more time learning his trade at fullback, Halfpenny might get there eventually.

IronMike - I reckon that's down to their respective coaches. Gatland for Wales (and the Lions) wants structure and forward pressure, Cotter at Clermont has them playing a more fluid and risky game.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Byrne has been playing well according to reports on the T14 games on Planet Rugby.

There was talk that there were off the feild issues with Byrne & J Thomas which lead to them never featuring under Gats since. According to the rumour it was also part of why Hook fell out of favour. Tht said it is only rumour, but knowing Gats it makes sense.

mr-bryns-attitude wrote:

The Saint wrote:Anyone know the kick-off time for Wales versus South Africa? Please say it's 14:30... Need to be somewhere at 5. [/quote

South Africa--- sat 9th Nov 17.30
Argentina------sat 16 Nov 14.30
Tonga---------Fri 22nd Nov 19.30
Australia-------Sat 30th Nov 17.00

The bearer of bad news... Thanks. Don't suppose you know which channel the games are on? What's your source?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Byrne has been playing well according to reports on the T14 games on Planet Rugby.

There was talk that there were off the feild issues with Byrne & J Thomas which lead to them never featuring under Gats since.  According to the rumour it was also part of why Hook fell out of favour.  Tht said it is only rumour, but knowing Gats it makes sense.

Hmm...the intrigue in Welsh rugby, eh

Whatever, you have a good squad of players who should be looking to really kick on in the AIs.

Saint - I thought all Welsh international (and Pro12 games) were on the Beeb or S4C. Apologies if I'm wrong.

bedfordwelsh wrote:They knew the score as such and there are better, younger players than Byrne in Wales at the moment currently on form as well.

Younger, yes. Better, no. Byrne has still got it, at one of the best club teams in Europe. The young guns were well beaten in Japan just a few months ago.

samuraidragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:They knew the score as such and there are better, younger players than Byrne in Wales at the moment currently on form as well.

Younger, yes. Better, no. Byrne has still got it, at one of the best club teams in Europe. The young guns were well beaten in Japan just a few months ago.

Liam Williams has been solid to say the least, a rock under the high ball. Also Jordan Williams could be someone to look at for the long term at 15, permitting he's versatile enough to offer both options. So far he has shown exceptional natural talent at 15 for the U20s and most recently on the wing at Euro level.

Truth be told I'd have Byrne in over Hook any day of the week. Hook at 15 for Wales has never really delivered or offered the stability to be considered a serious option in that particular slot, he is crisis cover at best. That being said, I'm slightly confused as to why anyone would consider him over Byrne, who at least is a specialist 15 and a very good one on his day. Hook offers a boot but again he'd be extremely lucky to be given kicking duties with Halfpenny, Biggar, Priestland and Patchell to contend with. Again, crisis cover.

You seem to be forgetting that Priestland's place kicking was so poor he had to have the kicking duties taken away from him in 2012. Until then Halfpenny had specialized in distance kicks. By contrast, Biggar's kicking is very solid.

On form Byrne should have been in the squad for the last several seasons. He's a better full-back than Halfpenny in my view - though not a better rugby player. But he only covers 15, so is less likely to get a bench slot.

Priestland is by no means too old to bounce back, albeit after hitting quite a low last year. Nevertheless he has been kicking well for the Scarlets this season and generally showing glimpses of his best, linking up nicely with his backline in attack.

Is Byrne a better fullback than Halfpenny? He was genuinely the best going back over 5 years but even then inconsistent at times. Halfpenny has been one of the most consistent players in the world and central to any success for his sides, be it Wales, the Lions or the Blues. What's to suggest Byrne could deliver as much considering he lost his place some time back?

hook in there because he can play numerous positions where as byrne to my limited knowledge plays only 15 . Im a big big fan of byrne but it makes sense having hook and bringing younger players in .like Hanson he ll just have to realise his international playing days are over after the world cup there be loads of senior players be following him too

Knowsit17 wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:They knew the score as such and there are better, younger players than Byrne in Wales at the moment currently on form as well.

Younger, yes. Better, no. Byrne has still got it, at one of the best club teams in Europe. The young guns were well beaten in Japan just a few months ago.

Liam Williams has been solid to say the least, a rock under the high ball. Also Jordan Williams could be someone to look at for the long term at 15, permitting he's versatile enough to offer both options. So far he has shown exceptional natural talent at 15 for the U20s and most recently on the wing at Euro level.

Jordan Williams has amazing footwork and is a very balanced runner who can step off both feet, his preferred position is flyhalf isn't it? I know he played for the Scarlets there a couple of times last season, but it looks like they see him more as a winger/fullback these days? Whats his defence like?

Halfpenny over Byrne - Yes anyday

Li Williams over Byrne - Well he's on form is young and one for the future and playing in Wales

Hook over Byrne - Ok not as an out and out XV but Hook is there for his versatility

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Byrne has been playing well according to reports on the T14 games on Planet Rugby.

There was talk that there were off the feild issues with Byrne & J Thomas which lead to them never featuring under Gats since.  According to the rumour it was also part of why Hook fell out of favour.  Tht said it is only rumour, but knowing Gats it makes sense.

That's a new one on me. In the case of JT - like Michael Owen before him - he never really had it,  but there was no-one else around at the time. Hook gets picked for the squad, which he wouldn't if Gatland had him on the sh*t list.  

Still, it is clear that some players leave Wales and get cast into outer darkness - like Dwayne Peel who is a few hours' drive from the Millenium.  Others can go to the far South of France, play poorly, get suspended for being on the razzle and still monopolize the Wales shirt. Funny, isn't it?

The Saint wrote:

mr-bryns-attitude wrote:

The Saint wrote:Anyone know the kick-off time for Wales versus South Africa? Please say it's 14:30... Need to be somewhere at 5. [/quote

South Africa--- sat 9th Nov 17.30
Argentina------sat 16 Nov 14.30
Tonga---------Fri 22nd Nov 19.30
Australia-------Sat 30th Nov 17.00

The bearer of bad news... Thanks. Don't suppose you know which channel the games are on? What's your source?

Here you go my good man:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16658830

IronMike wrote:I would take an on form Byrne over Halfpenny at fullback any day, Halfpenny's positioning is immaculate, but he doesn't run support lines or counter attacking angles as well as Byrne(except for that Lions 3rd test). Hes just spent a lot more time learning his trade at fullback, Halfpenny might get there eventually.

Liam Williams is the best Welsh fullback at the moment, by a country mile, he reminds me of a certain fullback who used to play in the seventies. Put goal kicking aside and just take a look at basic fullback play, this kid is excellent under the high ball, takes perfect running lines, always breaks the first tackle, he has a good sidestep and he has guts and courage in abundance and he hits the living crap out of whoever he tackles, a trait that he has is that he never misses a tackle as well, these things come to this kid naturally, put Halfpenny on the wing instead of Cuthbert and put Williams at fullback.

Thanks for the source LD. On Liam Williams, I'm not so sure. He had the 15 jersey at Scarlets last season and looked average - inexperienced in that role, but this season he has been a lot better. But half the games played this season, he has been on the wing and he always does well there. He's played well on the wing for Wales too. The lad has heart and that's hard to come by these days.

For the Tonga game I'd consider leaving Halfpenny, North, Phillips and perhaps one or two others out of the 23 and put Liam to full back, putting Hook there would be a backwards step. Walker can come in onto the wing and maybe Cuthbert if fit, can come back in. Start Priestland at 10 and give him the kicking duties. Priest is my No.1 fly-half throughout the series anyway. Could start with Rhodri at 9 maybe, or even go for a radical team like this:

Jenkins, Owens, Jarvis, AWJ, Charteris, Lydiate, Tipuric, R.Jones, R.Williams, Priestland, Walker, Allen, Davies, Cuthbert, L.Williams. Bench: Hibbard, James, A.Jones, B.Davies, Coombes, Ll.Williams, Biggar, Hook.
A few changes here and there, but still lots of promise. I'd be disapointed to say the least if they didn't perform against Tonga.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So does Charteris but not sure about Hook, James or Phillips but again in Hook and Phillips' case there has generally been a better relationship between the French clubs and the WRU.

Don't know the reason why, but I do recall that last Autumn, Charteris missed the 1st AI and played for Perpignan yet he featured in the 4th AI which was outside the IRB window.

Saint,

It is a good side and its nice that we can put a side out like that these days BUT thats potentially 11 changes from the side that will start against the Boks (Cuthbert not in squad BTW) for me thats way to many changes and leads to us coming unstuck.

That said reports today say that Gatland is using the AIs as prep for the 6 Nations and would rather lose matches in November if it meant retaining the 6 Nations or winning a GS so we could see wholesale changes.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So does Charteris but not sure about Hook, James or Phillips but again in Hook and Phillips' case there has generally been a better relationship between the French clubs and the WRU.

Don't know the reason why, but I do recall that last Autumn, Charteris missed the 1st AI and played for Perpignan yet he featured in the 4th AI which was outside the IRB window.

Dave,

There have always been deals done with the French clubs over release and its good to see that a deal has been struck today with Bath over Paul James.

He is being released back to them the weekend of the Tonga game in exchange for him being available against the Aussies week later outside of the IRB window.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Saint,

It is a good side and its nice that we can put a side out like that these days BUT thats potentially 11 changes from the side that will start against the Boks (Cuthbert not in squad BTW) for me thats way to many changes and leads to us coming unstuck.

That said reports today say that Gatland is using the AIs as prep for the 6 Nations and would rather lose matches in November if it meant retaining the 6 Nations or winning a GS so we could see wholesale changes.

Really hope we're targetting the Boks, and revenge over Arg and Aus. We should be targetting all games. It is a lot of changes, but most of the players will be involved in the 23 from match one anyway, I guess.

I guess maybe its the fact that wholesale changes have never really worked for us and we have had some bad experiences form it.

For me I would say 3 -5 changes is the max we should be looking at from the starting XV that is.

I think if we win those opening games the whole squad would be on a high, then we could do anything. Arg have a new coach, they could be vulnerable. SA I'm not so sure about...

[quote="bedfordwelsh"][quote="Cardiff Dave"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:Paul James.

He is being released back to them the weekend of the Tonga game in exchange for him being available against the Aussies week later outside of the IRB window.

Excellent news, should give a us strong platform against Australia from the bench as well.

Looks like Bevington will start against Tonga then, with Gethin given a rest and time from the bench

[quote="wales606"][quote="bedfordwelsh"]

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Paul James.

He is being released back to them the weekend of the Tonga game in exchange for him being available against the Aussies week later outside of the IRB window.

Excellent news, should give a us strong platform against Australia from the bench as well.

Looks like Bevington will start against Tonga then, with Gethin given a rest and time from the bench

Hope not, Gethin needs more game time IMO. I'd swap them around, so Geth to start.

Geth is quality, he just needs gametime, we all know what hes capable of producing when hes on song and up to full fitness.

This is why I would have had Gill in there over Bevington.

Just had a scary thought, what happens if North gets injured and we dont have any of our 'big' carriers in the backline? We could be missing Philips, Roberts, Cuthbert and North if this happens and philips loses himself in a bottle or Gatland looks to the future of our scrumhalf options.

Are we going to be forced to develop our back play?

samuraidragon wrote: You seem to be forgetting that Priestland's place kicking was so poor he had to have the kicking duties taken away from him in 2012. Until then Halfpenny had specialized in distance kicks. By contrast, Biggar's kicking is very solid.

On form Byrne should have been in the squad for the last several seasons. He's a better full-back than Halfpenny in my view - though not a better rugby player. But he only covers 15, so is less likely to get a bench slot.

Rhys slotted 7 from 7 away at Quins, and missed less than Sexton this weekend.

I can't believe Halfpenny is being considered as weaker than either Williams or Byrne. Can't we recognize brilliance when it's staring us in the face? Byrne played well for a short period and Guscott called him the best player in the world whereupon since he has played distinctly averagely. Williams can't even make the Scarlets 15 shirt his own and his positional play is woeful. I have never seen a top fullback allow the ball to bounce so often.
Halfpenny, North and Cuthbert are, for me, miles ahead of the rest as a back 3.

Norfolklass wrote:I can't believe Halfpenny is being considered as weaker than either Williams or Byrne. Can't we recognize brilliance when it's staring us in the face? Byrne played well for a short period and Guscott called him the best player in the world whereupon since he has played distinctly averagely. Williams can't even make the Scarlets 15 shirt his own and his positional play is woeful. I have never seen a top fullback allow the ball to bounce so often.
Halfpenny, North and Cuthbert are, for me, miles ahead of the rest as a back 3.

Williams has been playing very well at fullback in the last few games, he only played on the wing for the Scarlets out of necessity as the Scarlets are short of wing but have Jordan Williams who is also a massive prospect at fullback, but Jordan has now been moved back to the wing for the last few games and Liam seems to be playing fullback again, he has had two very impressive HC games on the bounce now, for me Halfpenny has massive pace, he is a willing tackler and has a laser guided boot on him, what he is not very good at is hitting the lines at the right time and angle, he is prone to dropping the high ball and his positioning at fullback can be questionable, you do not notice his positioning so much as he is so quick he can recover well.

LordDowlais wrote:he is prone to dropping the high ball

Danglies he is  

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:he is prone to dropping the high ball

Danglies he is  

Watch him recieving a catch when the chase is good, he will miss his catch sometimes, but although everything he does good, he does it at a world class level. If we want him in the side for his goal kicking then put him on the wing for Cuthbert, but I reckon, that if he was not so perfect with his goal kicking his place would be under threat from Williams.

'he will miss his catch sometimes' isn't 'prone to dropping the high ball ' is it now my Turkish Cyclops

munkian wrote:'he will miss his catch sometimes' isn't 'prone to dropping the high ball ' is it now my Turkish Cyclops  

Who said I was a Turk ?

And he is prone to dropping the high ball, I would say that the high ball is one of his weaknesses.

Jayzus, make your mind up.

Anyway, I disagree, I'd say the Highball is one of his strengths.

What is the difference between missing a catch weather it is a high one or not ?

Anyway, I am not saying the he is no good, I just think that if his kicking was not so good, he would be looking over his shoulder a bit, I would like him on the wing anyway as he is a very good finisher.

If all were fit then for me it would be North Halfpenny and Cuthbert who despite having some defensive frailties knows how to score and has a very good strike rate.

What is pleasing now is that a few seasons agon we were worrying as to who would be picked if our frontline players got injured, that fear in the main has gone with most positions (TH, No8 & No9 aside) covered.

munkian wrote:Highball is one of his strengths.

Are we still talking about Halfpenny, or are we back to Mike Phillips's drinking?