Welsh Squad for Autumn Tests?

First topic message reminder :

I'm not 100% sure of how many players are allowed in the team. I think it's about 35 though. So whilst considering injuries and and choosing players on form, this is what i think the team should be:

Props:
Gethin Jenkins
Paul James
Rhys Gill
Adam Jones
Samson Lee
Scott Andrews

Hookers:
Hibbard
Ken Owens
Matthew Rees

Locks:
Alyn Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies
Andrew Coombs

Flankers:
Dan Lydiate
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Ryan Jones
Aaron Shingler

Number 8:
Toby Falateu
Morgan Allen

Scrum Half:
Mike Phillips
Richie Rees
Gareth Davies

Outside Half:
Dan Biggar
Rhys Priestland
Rhys Patchell

Centres:
Johnathan Davies
Ashley Beck
Scott Williams
Andrew Bishop

Wings:
George North
Alex Cuthbert
Eli Walker

Fullback:
Leigh Halpfenny
Liam Williams

Not Available (so far):
Craig Mitchell
Jamie Roberts

I think players like Morgan Allen, Andrew Bishop, Rhys Gill and Samson Lee all deserve at least a start against Tonga.
Rhys has been sharing the one jersey with Vunipolo but i have watched him once and he was solid, I hear he has been part of a strong Saracens scrum though. Plus Ryan Bevington hasn't really done much for the Ospreys so far this season.
8 for me with Wales is a big worry at the moment because with Toby injured and Ryan seen ore a a versatile substitute, however that's still only 1 cover for our starting 8. Morgan is young, fresh, strong and a great talents who is in form with the Ospreys. We need to start bringing youny 8's like Allen and Baker into the set up for the future. I mean Ryan isn't going to last much longer, we need someone know to start to challenge Toby and be a descent back up.
Bishop - is one of the most under rated players in Britain. Such a strong defender, on par with Barett in my eyes. A great player who is safe and has that experience.
Samson Lee -Been the best tightheads out of all the regions so far this season  (Adam has only just come back). A strong scrummager and would give the Tongan a good run for their money. Surly the successor for Adam when he retires. Obviously Adam to start against South Africa, Argentina and Australia but would rather Scott on the bench for those games. As much as i want Samson to shine NOW, he still needs to be bled into the set up first. SO one appearance against Tonga would be great.
Lastly, Patchell like Samson is still young and needs small steps into the set up. I think one appearance of the bench for Tonga would be nice for him. However we all know what can happen when we rush a young 10 into the spotlight. So even though i want him in the team for the experience, i hope were not forced to play him too much this Autumn.

Sanjay is a top class fullback, but has been on the wing for the Scarlets because he is a better winger than Gareth Owen or Steve Shingler, and it is the same reason that Jordan is out there. I am not too concerned with who starts on the wing or who starts at fullback between Halfpenny and Sanjay, as truth be told they will swap around numerous times throughout the match.

I think the major difference between Leigh and Liam is that Leigh is more graceful in attack (and kicks goals), but tends to be save, where as Liam is far more vicious in defence (and with ball in hand) and tends to be quite poop-or-bust in attitude. So taking that into account I would say it is probably the safer option, and therefore most likely, that Liam will slot in on the wing.

I agree with either of them being fullback, it doesn't really matter, its like arguing who should be 12 or 13 when they will interchange throughout the match.

I do like Williams' attitude, fearless and aggressive, we'll need that against SA

Iron Mike, there is no doubting that he gives it 100%, but sometimes I do worry he tries to make his tackles as brutal as possible, when there is no need to. I fear he is the sort of player that will pick up a few cards internationally.

I'm not sure it's fair on Halfpenny to say he's more conservative than Liam Williams. I think it has more to do with the way Wales use him. The third Lions Test showed what he can do when he's given licence to counter-attack. But even so, I still think Liam Williams is the better / more natural fullback.

Lucky, Liam tends to want to run the ball back 90% of the time, regardless of whether he has support or not. SO maybe it is not Tuppence is more concervative, as much as Sanjay is slightly more reckless.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Iron Mike, there is no doubting that he gives it 100%, but sometimes I do worry he tries to make his tackles as brutal as possible, when there is no need to.  I fear he is the sort of player that will pick up a few cards internationally.

In some respects hes a bit like Etzebeth, overly aggressive at times but I think he'll be ok, as long as his tackles are good (and legal).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Lucky, Liam tends to want to run the ball back 90% of the time, regardless of whether he has support or not.  SO maybe it is not Tuppence is more concervative, as much as Sanjay is slightly more reckless.

True. But for me Wales are too conservative alot of the time and we could do with someone who's prepared to counter-attack. Defences are so organised these days, but kick-chases can sometimes be more disorganised and we should try to make the most of that. We should at least look if it's on before opting to kick.

The trouble is, that Gatland's tactics do not utalise Halpenny's obvious strength, which is his pace, this kid is like grease lightning but how often do we see him breaking out for Wales ? If all Gatland wants him for is his kicking then put him on the wing for Cuthbert, at least then he could use his speed a lot more, and we would have an all round player at fullback.

One of the reasons I want Priestland to start is because he can read the game and instantly see if it's on to counter-attack. Biggar is a more conservative, but I can see he is now less conservative with the Ospreys than he used to be. His stint with Wales has boosted his abilities and confidence. Priest to start for me with Biggar on bench.

Guys, Halfpenny was 6 Nations man of the series, Lions man of the series, potentially World player of the year, what more dose he have to do to convince you he can play fullback? Also why's Sanjay called Sanjay?

Norfolklass -: Liam Williams went on hols as a kid, and got a very good tan, and it was commented that he looked like Sanjay who was on Eastenders (a market stall holder, I think was married to Gita?).

As for Halfpenny v Liam at full back, it is just a case of the squad only having two specialist wingers in it, and one of those being a rookie. So we assume the back three will be North, Halfpenny and Sanjay, as they have all been capped etc, which means the question is which player will be moved to the wing. It is not that Halfpenny is the lesser fullback, or that Williams is the better, it is just down to who would fit in better on the wing. But like me and a few others have said, they will swap throughout the match so, in essance it is just a number on the shirt.

Norfolklass wrote:Guys,  Halfpenny was 6 Nations man of the series,  Lions man of the series, potentially World player of the year, what more dose he have to do to convince you he can play fullback? Also why's Sanjay called Sanjay?

I'm all for Halfpenny staying at full back. He doesn't need to convince me of anything. This discussion (about Leigh moving to wing) seems to often come about though, and I'm not sure why. Unless Halfpenny is unavailable, Liam Williams should play on the wing, like he did versus New Zealand. With Cuthbert out he is the obvious replacement for me. I selected some teams earlier in the thread if you'd care to look.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Norfolklass -: Liam Williams went on hols as a kid, and got a very good tan, and it was commented that he looked like Sanjay who was on Eastenders (a market stall holder, I think was married to Gita?).  

As for Halfpenny v Liam at full back, it is just a case of the squad only having two specialist wingers in it, and one of those being a rookie.  So we assume the back three will be North, Halfpenny and Sanjay, as they have all been capped etc, which means the question is which player will be moved to the wing.  It is not that Halfpenny is the lesser fullback, or that Williams is the better, it is just down to who would fit in better on the wing.  But like me and a few others have said, they will swap throughout the match so, in essance it is just a number on the shirt.

Thanks. I am genuinely excited about seeing another player of Halfpenny's ability on the pitch.
Saint, I acknowledge your thoughts. This is a great thread with top contributors

Williams scares me and thrills me at the same time, he seems to want to run everything from everywhere which in one sense is great to see a young player not afarid BUT as we all know there is a time and place.

If he can learn to know where and when that time is then he has the potential to get right to the very top.

For now I think he's a great option with Cuthbert out but for me Halfpenny is head and shoulders above anyone as our No XV.

There was a Kiwi poster on here - I forget which one - who was really impressed with Liam Williams's performance against the All Blacks last autumn and has asked a few times since then why he hasn't featured more for Wales. New Zealanders tend to know talent when they see it.

LP,

Given the talent (or lack of it) a few seasons age he would have had many caps if bit older, I guess he is unlucky in a way that hes come along when our cupboard isn't as bare as it has been.

That said I have no doubt he will rack up a shed load of caps starting this AI series and become an established member of any future Welsh squad.

Injury is an unfortunate part of the game and the one example I always use is that of Gethin Jenkins, prior to the 05 GS Duncan Jones was first choice L/Head. He got injured Geth came in and has never looked back really.

Cuthberts injury could do same for Williams.

Can't see a winger with Cuthbert's strike rate disapearing into thin air.

LP, I think that poster was Kia or Taylorman.

Could well have been Taylorman.

Sanjay did impress me against NZ - he didn't seem to have any fear of them and his tackles seem to rile Daag as he was made to knock on (he knocked it on etc)

I'd stick him on the wing.

Cuthbert, for me, is the genuine article. A brilliant player. It is easier to coach defence into a player than attack. Cuthbert has a genius for attack, if a limited defender. Years from now it will appear crazy to have replaced him on the Lions tour with an injured unfit moderately reputed plodding winger. For what little I have seen of Williams, he will have to play extraordinarily well to get in to that back 3. Eli Walker could be selected ahead of him this Autumn.

bedfordwelsh wrote:LP,

Given the talent (or lack of it) a few seasons age he would have had many caps if bit older, I guess he is unlucky in a way that hes come along when our cupboard isn't as bare as it has been.

That said I have no doubt he will rack up a shed load of caps starting this AI series and become an established member of any future Welsh squad.

Injury is an unfortunate part of the game and the one example I always use is that of Gethin Jenkins, prior to the 05 GS Duncan Jones was first choice L/Head.  He got injured Geth came in and has never looked back really.

Cuthberts injury could do same for Williams.

Timing is a funny thing, if it wasn't for the emergence of North we wouldn't have shifted Halfpenny to 15 (due to no adequate wingers), then Shane Williams retired and Cuthbert immediately came through, now we have a bunch of talented wingers waiting for their chance.

IronMike wrote:Timing is a funny thing, if it wasn't for the emergence of North we wouldn't have shifted Halfpenny to 15 (due to no adequate wingers), then Shane Williams retired and Cuthbert immediately came through, now we have a bunch of talented wingers waiting for their chance.

You could even say that they are waiting in th wings   

 

Da iawn  

Just saw that the WRU has made an offer to its four regional sides to centrally contract the country’s top players. Dont see any thread on this but it must be good news for Welsh rugby?

GunsGerms wrote:Just saw that the WRU has made an offer to its four regional sides to centrally contract the country’s top players. Dont see any thread on this but it must be good news for Welsh rugby?

Jury is out on anything that Roger Lewis says or does, likewise with Stuart Galagher (even though I don't dislike Stuart), nine times out of ten whatever these two say/do is a big talking issue but rarely a step forward.

GunsGerms wrote:Just saw that the WRU has made an offer to its four regional sides to centrally contract the country’s top players. Dont see any thread on this but it must be good news for Welsh rugby?

]

Ha yea you would think wouldn't you, believe it when it actually happens.

Well fingers crossed. It would also obviously be good for Irish rugby from a selfish point of view as the top Wales stars playing in Wales obviously strengthens the Rabo which is a good thing.

Lets face it without Wales there would be no Rabo league.

Jhamer25 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Just saw that the WRU has made an offer to its four regional sides to centrally contract the country’s top players. Dont see any thread on this but it must be good news for Welsh rugby?

]

Ha yea you would think wouldn't you, believe it when it actually happens.

Aye and isn't it the same offer as before?

GunsGerms wrote:Well fingers crossed. It would also obviously be good for Irish rugby from a selfish point of view as the top Wales stars playing in Wales obviously strengthens the Rabo which is a good thing.

Lets face it without Wales there would be no Rabo league.

There again, with regards to the Rabo, the WRU might decide to rest these top players more often than not since they would be their employer. Again the devil's in the detail and as far as I know, these details haven't been disclosed.

With the news Phillips has been sacked by Bayonne should Gatland take his punishment even furher and drop him from the squad or should club and country be kept apart?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Well fingers crossed. It would also obviously be good for Irish rugby from a selfish point of view as the top Wales stars playing in Wales obviously strengthens the Rabo which is a good thing.

Lets face it without Wales there would be no Rabo league.

There again, with regards to the Rabo, the WRU might decide to rest these top players more often than not since they would be their employer. Again the devil's in the detail and as far as I know, these details haven't been disclosed.

And the regions would want to get it in writing that the players become theirs again once we know what's happening in Europe. A verbal assurance from Rog is unlikely to count for much.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Well fingers crossed. It would also obviously be good for Irish rugby from a selfish point of view as the top Wales stars playing in Wales obviously strengthens the Rabo which is a good thing.

Lets face it without Wales there would be no Rabo league.

There again, with regards to the Rabo, the WRU might decide to rest these top players more often than not since they would be their employer. Again the devil's in the detail and as far as I know, these details haven't been disclosed.

That wouldnt bother me as long as the likes of Leigh Halfpenny, George North, Cuthbert etc. are all representing Welsh teams at the buiness end of the Rabo tournament. Rotation is good.

bedfordwelsh wrote:With the news Phillips has been sacked by Bayonne should Gatland take his punishment even furher and drop him from the squad or should club and country be kept apart?

Are you sure? Thought he was just suspended?

The latest is that Phillips hasn't been sacked (yet), and Bayonne are annoyed that the media is reported his sacking.

A question about central contracts - I know that in this case the WRU has said that they're just going to cover central contracts until the european cup is sorted and incomes can be identified. However, lets just consider full time central contracts. What the WRU has offered in the past is to 'centrally contract all of a region's top international players' or words to that effect. How does that then work with different numbers of players at each club?

I'm not trying to plead poverty being a dragons fan, but under central contracts it would seem that the Ospreys, for examples, with lets say 10 international on their books may then have upwards of £1.2m taken off their wage bill by the WRU, whereas the Dragons would only get funding for around 2 players (let's say £240k worth). That leaves the Dragons with a much heftier wage bill than the Ospreys. Are the Ospreys then able to 'go nuts' and bring in some big guns with spare money, or are the Dragons subsidized more to help with the shortfall???

Griff, the WRU could move more international players to the Dragons. It could even things out and ensure the best players are playing regularly. Either that or someone could tell Gatland to pick the form players at the Dragons...

With the temp. central contracts thing, I think ATM it's only for those out of a contract. Obviously it's the solution to stop any players being nicked during the whole european row. The WRU have stated that they will then hand the contracts back over to the Regions. Would they really hand them back over though? I also think some of the top players should stay centrally contracted.

If we can't afford to keep the top international players in Wales, so be it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Well fingers crossed. It would also obviously be good for Irish rugby from a selfish point of view as the top Wales stars playing in Wales obviously strengthens the Rabo which is a good thing.

Lets face it without Wales there would be no Rabo league.

There again, with regards to the Rabo, the WRU might decide to rest these top players more often than not since they would be their employer. Again the devil's in the detail and as far as I know, these details haven't been disclosed.

That wouldnt bother me as long as the likes of Leigh Halfpenny, George North, Cuthbert etc. are all representing Welsh teams at the buiness end of the Rabo tournament. Rotation is good.

Rotation is good if you have a decent squad ie strength in depth.
As for the business end of the Rabo; I assume you mean the play offs yet it's a league, a season long slog and European qualification will be top of the agenda for Cardiff Blues, so games at the beginning and in the middle are important. Can't afford to slip up against teams like Zebra for example. Oops!

Griff wrote:The latest is that Phillips hasn't been sacked (yet), and Bayonne are annoyed that the media is reported his sacking.

A question about central contracts - I know that in this case the WRU has said that they're just going to cover central contracts until the european cup is sorted and incomes can be identified.  However, lets just consider full time central contracts.  What the WRU has offered in the past is to 'centrally contract all of a region's top international players' or words to that effect.  How does that then work with different numbers of players at each club?

I'm not trying to plead poverty being a dragons fan, but under central contracts it would seem that the Ospreys, for examples, with lets say 10 international on their books may then have upwards of £1.2m taken off their wage bill by the WRU, whereas the Dragons would only get funding for around 2 players (let's say £240k worth).  That leaves the Dragons with a much heftier wage bill than the Ospreys.  Are the Ospreys then able to 'go nuts' and bring in some big guns with spare money, or are the Dragons subsidized more to help with the shortfall???

Aye. Lots of questions to be answered re full time CCs.
Another is what would happen say if the WRU took on a player who was returning from outside Wales. Which region would he be allocated to?
Also could it happen that players end up being grouped together at particular regions ie back 3 at Cardiff, front 5 at the Os, etc?

Looking at what has been said Roger will be paying these centralised contracts out of the £33m that has been tucked aside to pay the regions for ht e next 5 seasons (if we sign the participation agreement). So it isn't even the WRU bailing us out as such, it is them subbing us our wages before paid day. Also that £33m, as reported in the beeb article about centralised contracts, would be the same as we got between '08 and now, so theoretically we have seen no raise in money given to us from the WRU since '08!

That could well be a major stumbling block IMO.

Cash4players*

*20734% APR

Cardiff Dave wrote:Also could it happen that players end up being grouped together at particular regions ie back 3 at Cardiff, front 5 at the Os, etc?

I said about this last time the centralised contracts were mentioned. Theoretically it would make sense for the union to allocate player to regions so, assuming contracts went to all Internationals, the regions would feild teams like (IMO)

Blues -: Halfpenny, Robinson, O Williams, Allen, Cuthbert, Patchell, Ll Williams; Hobbs, Rees (?), Andrews, B Davies, Reed, Petorious, Navidi, ???
Scarlets -: Li Williams, North, Davies, Sc Williams, Jo Williams, Priestland, Rh Williams; John, Owens, Lee, Ball, ???, Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker
Ospreys -: Fussel, Walker, Bishop, Beck, Dirkson, Biggar, Phillips; Bevington, Hibbard, Ad Jones, AW Jones, Evans, Rh Jones, Tipuric, Bearman
Dragons -: Dan Evans, Prydie, Dixon, Hook, Amos, Tovey, Rees; ???, E Phillips, ???, Coombs, Charteris, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Also could it happen that players end up being grouped together at particular regions ie back 3 at Cardiff, front 5 at the Os, etc?

I said about this last time the centralised contracts were mentioned.  Theoretically it would make sense for the union to allocate player to regions so, assuming contracts went to all Internationals, the regions would feild teams like (IMO)

Blues -: Halfpenny, Robinson, O Williams, Allen, Cuthbert, Patchell, Ll Williams; Hobbs, Rees (?), Andrews, B Davies, Reed, Petorious, Navidi, ???
Scarlets -: Li Williams, North, Davies, Sc Williams, Jo Williams, Priestland, Rh Williams; John, Owens, Lee, Ball, ???, Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker
Ospreys -: Fussel, Walker, Bishop, Beck, Dirkson, Biggar, Phillips; Bevington, Hibbard, Ad Jones, AW Jones, Evans, Rh Jones, Tipuric, Bearman
Dragons -: Dan Evans, Prydie, Dixon, Hook, Amos, Tovey, Rees; ???, E Phillips, ???, Coombs, Charteris, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau

Cardiff born and breadman to the Drags. Doubt it somehow.

While I like the idea of an even spread of players, I don't think you can a) make players move to somewhere they don't want to (if they didn't want to), and b) have such a lot of players potentially in the Amlin - the WRU would want them in the HC. If that was the case, would the union shift players at the end of the season to the HC entrants(s)???

Dave, I was just thinking about keeping combinations (backrow) in one team, and moving one player is easier than moving two. Although if the WRU did it Wales' first team would be at the Blues, the second team would be at the Ospreys, the U20s and dregs would be spread to the Scarlets and Dragons.

Griff wrote:While I like the idea of an even spread of players, I don't think you can a) make players move to somewhere they don't want to (if they didn't want to), and b) have such a lot of players potentially in the Amlin - the WRU would want them in the HC.  If that was the case, would the union shift players at the end of the season to the HC entrants(s)???

The Amlin is still a decent competition though, it has some decent teams, so I'm not sure why there is negativity shown towards it. There wasn't any when Cardiff won it.

The Amlin should be a bit more competitive next season, as there will be a few more Rabo sides in there.

There were always a few decent Franglo teams in there. This year for instance; Bath, Wasps, Biarritz (even though they're on their down), Stade Francais.

Griff wrote:The latest is that Phillips hasn't been sacked (yet), and Bayonne are annoyed that the media is reported his sacking.

If they are annoyed then why report the story to the media in the first place?

I don't think they did Guns. They said they'd suspended him, which they had.