Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

The statement implies that the WRU are not onside. It appears to me to be an attempt to put pressure on the WRU

Munchkin surely it's about time the Welsh regions stood up to the WRU? This is their chance.

Clubs (I know the Welsh regions are technically not clubs but they supply the WRU with the players for internationals) vs unions is a common theme emerging.

quinsforever I agree. The RFU have been very canny in this. Staying in the shadows. Best thing to do. They can then emerge from the shadows as the saviours whereas the PRL are portrayed as the villains. The RFU is risking nothing either.

Beshocked the Welsh regions cannot survice without the Union that is the difference.

With 2, possibly 3, Welsh teams not qualifying for the European competition year on year the weaker ones will go into a spiral of decline.

600,000 for those who do qualify is not going to stop the departure of players to France and England.

The Turkeys are voting for Christmas.
The Regions do not command great loyalty unlike the Irish provinces.

secretfly you are surely more fond of the RFU than PRL though despite the RFU being fence sitters? The PRL have been far the bravest and boldest of anyone yet are the most criticised.

I know it doesn't guarantee a successful resolution but the Welsh regions declaring their support for the English and French clubs does help.

quinsforever wrote:the welsh clubs clearly have their own agenda here too. but their actions certainly suit prl/lnr.

They do, and as they're cut from the same cloth as PRL it's no surprise, but their actions may come back to bite them unless those actions are WRU sanctioned. Even then things might be very tricky for them...unless all Unions have come to an agreement. It's all 'ifs' and 'buts'  

Geoff well technically the Welsh regions could survive if they joined the AP and joined this new competition.

I can see the Welsh regions point of view. They feel the WRU have too much control and too much leverage. That's why they are deciding to side with the English and French clubs.

As I have been told by your fellow Irishman your situation is very different to the Welsh.

The Irish clubs are essentially run by the IRFU. Severing their ties with the IRFU is surely impossible?

Munchkin you talk about being cut from the same cloth. What cloth is that? Wanting change?

Wanting to curb union power? Club rugby in Wales badly needs a boost. Club football is crushing it. Change is needed in my opinion for rugby to compete.

There should be a balance between club and country, not favouring one or the other.

beshocked wrote:secretfly you are surely more fond of the RFU than PRL though despite the RFU being fence sitters? The PRL have been far the bravest and boldest of anyone yet are the most criticised.

I know it doesn't guarantee a successful resolution but the Welsh regions declaring their support for the English and French clubs does help.

Help what?  Help the seeds of a counter punch thrown at the Welsh regions by possibly WRU..IRFU SRU  whichever or all together.  Which would force regions to re-evaluate their position (regardless of what their wishes were) as if they don't have a League to go to to call home, being in a European Cup is meaningless.

So nothing is 'helpful' yet until we know the choreography of what other partners knew about the declaration or what they didn't know.

You call PRL brave, I'll call them an opportunistic outfit designed to put wealth in the private pockets of private owners.  
Their right to feel that way of course but my right to call a spade a spade.  

RFU - they were not neutral observers in an external family tiff. They were the parent of one of the kids, and they allowed the kid to bluster and threaten for months without any public reprimand or a distinct view on their own position as regards the PRL/LNR move. A vacuum is never helpful as it sows unecessary seeds of suspicion  
No, the RFU are central to the debate yet though fence-sitting was the noble way out.

I do see the RFU as playng a poor hand badly.

tehy could not afford to reprimand the PRL as the PRL know -because of the WC coming up. Tehy could not afford to alienate the rest of the unions either. So a silence and behind the scenes attempts to broker a deal seems to have been the best way they could deal with it.

Ritchie to my mind comes out of this as well as anyone. I see it a less fence sitting than respectful silence while attempting to act as honest brokers. No inflammatory public statements from the RFU - just emollient ones and the efforts to broker a deal. the RFU will know that the wider interests of the game are crucial here and that the PRL demands would never be acceptable to the rest of the unions.

So can i take it that no organisation incpuding unions and prl/nrl have come out and commented on this statement.

If so 12hrs and no other statement means they have to gone on their own you would feel as the media must have been swamping the different organisations for comments on the record.

Did lewis say on telly that if the regions joined they would be cut from everything. If he did that would imply the WRU knew the regions might try this and sent out a warning.

All the SRU have said is that they will only take part in a tournament approved by ERC and IRB. The IRFU and WRU issued the same statement essentially.

Secretfly

You are right. Perhaps it doesn't help but by the Welsh regions declaring their hand it means someone must react to that.

As I said the Welsh regions could join the AP.

I believe it is brave to challenge the status quo when it is not a happy situation. I believe it is brave to challenge the power of the unions.

You forget the PRL is not just Saracens,Leicester,Bath,Saints etc. It's the likes of Worcester,Newcastle and London Irish too.

I applaud the Welsh regions for standing up to the WRU.

You call the PRL a kid. They arguably have more power than the RFU.

You call fence sitting noble now? I think the PRL have been brave, taking all the flack whereas others hide behind them.

Brendan wrote:So can i take it that no organisation incpuding unions and prl/nrl have come out and commented on this statement.

If so 12hrs and no other statement means they have to gone on their own you would feel as the media must have been swamping the different organisations for comments on the record.

Did lewis say on telly that if the regions joined they would be cut from everything.  If he did that would imply the WRU knew the regions might try this and sent out a warning.

Roger Lewis said precious little about RCC or HC in that scrumv interview. what he said was that if the welsh clubs dont renew their participation agreement with the WRU, then all hell will break loose.

my bet - roger lewis does a deal with prl/lnr, and in return the welsh clubs sign the participation agreement, and the WRU gives approval to its clubs to participate in RCC.

RDW_Scotland wrote:All the SRU have said is that they will only take part in a tournament approved by ERC and IRB. The IRFU and WRU issued the same statement essentially.

Plus some hints from Dodson on what he feels is negotiable. The SRU are not wedded to two places as of right, however the financial split he was not really prepared to move far on nor on a decent level of entrants. thats what I read from the various statements

RDW_Scotland wrote:All the SRU have said is that they will only take part in a tournament approved by ERC and IRB. The IRFU and WRU issued the same statement essentially.

not ERC actually. see their sept 26th statements. not once is the word ERC mentioned. i seem to remember it says "approval of the relevant unions"

Scottish Rugby wishes to clarify that its clubs will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of the International Rugby Board (IRB) or the relevant national Rugby Unions.

IIRC the last comments from the Rabo Unions made no mention of the ERC,with most seeing it as a death knoll for the ERC

RDW_Scotland wrote:All the SRU have said is that they will only take part in a tournament approved by ERC and IRB. The IRFU and WRU issued the same statement essentially.

I do think the ERC might be changed in name atleast but if the unions dont sanction it it cant happen. Also don't the IRB have to sanction if over two countries where they take into account concerns of affected nations not involved.

Still dont see how the clubs can do a deal with the welsh and then change it to league when/if the other three join.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.

to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

Really? Any more classy than the SRU, WRU, FIR, FFR or IRFU? Why?

Brendan wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:All the SRU have said is that they will only take part in a tournament approved by ERC and IRB. The IRFU and WRU issued the same statement essentially.

I do think the ERC might be changed in name atleast but if the unions dont sanction it it cant happen.  Also don't the IRB have to sanction if over two countries where they take into account concerns of affected nations not involved.

Still dont see how the clubs can do a deal with the welsh and then change it to league when/if the other three join.

No. IRB can express preferences, but their initial statement was pretty clear. IRB will approve an international club tournament which has the approval of the respective national unions. And at the moment is is the FFR (frenchies) who are not playing ball. but if FFR, RFU and WRU agree, then 100% certainty that the IRB will sanction the tournament. after all, the other countries are not being excluded.

beshocked wrote:secretfly you are surely more fond of the RFU than PRL though despite the RFU being fence sitters? The PRL have been far the bravest and boldest of anyone yet are the most criticised.

I know it doesn't guarantee a successful resolution but the Welsh regions declaring their support for the English and French clubs does help.

I can think of a few other adjectives that I'd choose

beshocked wrote:Munchkin you talk about being cut from the same cloth. What cloth is that? Wanting change?

Wanting to curb union power? Club rugby in Wales badly needs a boost. Club football is crushing it. Change is needed in my opinion for rugby to compete.

There should be a balance between club and country, not favouring one or the other.

I was really referring to the divide between Club/Region, and Union, but all the above apply. I'm not against change though, and can understand the concerns of Welsh fans. The WRU don't come out of this with gold stars whatever happens. They have made a bit of a horlicks of regional rugby in Wales. The regions should have been fully Union owned, and properly cared for by the Union, although at the time I understand that the WRU was in a financial bind. Change is needed, but not just any change. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I admire your optimism for the Welsh regions, but there's a possible flip side to this. Hopefully we will all be better informed later today.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.

to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

Really?  Any more classy than the SRU, WRU, FIR, FFR or IRFU?  Why?

gravitas. credibility. not putting out meaningless statements with obvious loopholes. performing the role of mediator and bringing everyone back to the table.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly

You are right. Perhaps it doesn't help but by the Welsh regions declaring their hand it means someone must react to that.

As I said the Welsh regions could join the AP.

I believe it is brave to challenge the status quo when it is not a happy situation. I believe it is brave to challenge the power of the unions.

You forget the PRL is not just Saracens,Leicester,Bath,Saints etc. It's the likes of Worcester,Newcastle and London Irish too.

I applaud the Welsh regions for standing up to the WRU.

You call the PRL a kid. They arguably have more power than the RFU.

You call fence sitting noble now? I think the PRL have been brave, taking all the flack whereas others hide behind them.

And you actually believe that this is in the best interests of rugby? This is your so-called ideal balance, between a group that represents 12 clubs and an organisation that has responsibility for developing the whole game at all levels?

the SRU are prepared to let the ERC go - however they are not prepared to let the clubs control any future euro cup - thats how I read the various statements. A pragmatic not dogmatic position

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.

to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

Really?  Any more classy than the SRU, WRU, FIR, FFR or IRFU?  Why?

gravitas. credibility. not putting out meaningless statements with obvious loopholes. performing the role of mediator and bringing everyone back to the table.

And you know that the other unions have not been engaged similarly?

The PRL holds rugby to ransom and the Welsh reagons fall for it. What are they thinking!!

Hopefully the WRU will have more sense. I expect they will.

beshocked wrote:

You call fence sitting noble now? I think the PRL have been brave, taking all the flack whereas others hide behind them.

I say fence-sitting, when you're a central character in a debate, is not noble.
That doesn't infer PRL is ignoble, nor have I claimed so.
They've done what any opportunistic, privately run body would do - try to enhance their market share. I don't call that brave, I call it opportunistic - as you call any company that tries to buy a controlling shareholding in another company.

You argue that the PRL have more power than RFU. I'll disagree with you. But I will agree that they are attempting to 'make it so' in their current battle.

Let's see if the eventual declared 'position' of the RFU finally gives PRL the right to call the RFU their child.

"Regions would quite like to be in a new tournament, but also want to work with their union going forward...."

They dragged Robert Jones onto Radio Wales to try and find something interesting to say about this press release.

He couldn't think of anything either.

I hope Unions and club organisations read all this stuff - and hope they have been reading it

We certainly (all of us) know where we stand in all of this and if our respective Unions/club bodies etc need motivation to carry their own fans' wishes forward, then no better place to get a hint of those conflicting wishes is reading us lot.

Not sure what all the fuss is about on the ERC, it was only set up in Ireland to avail of the low corporation tax on any commercial deals it signed and allow those proceeds to be repatriated to its stakeholders in a tax efficient manner. There will be plenty of that BT money that just ends up as part of a cheque to the HMRC. Could be more than a fifth the value of the overall contract all being said.

Negotiations are always messy, and 606 jump on every snippet of news to blow it out of proportion.

Clubs want to take control from the Unions.  This started as soon as clubs could negotiate their own TV and commercial deals.  Now it is only a matter of time until clubs lobby the IRB to remove the mandatory release rules surrounding players called up for test matches during international windows (probably 5 years away from that though).

PRL and LNR wanted change, considering they were 6(?) teams each in the previous  HC competition then change was always going to have to occur.  Out of the 'celtic' nations Scotland are threatened with less participation rights, so are Italy which means they are the last people to agree to the change in realistic terms.  This left Ireland and Wales as the main potential side-switchers.  IRFU have been steadfast so far, probably feeling they are in a good position with 3 strong provinces, some recent participants in the latter stages of the current competition and their provinces usually being shown in the primetime slots and promotional activity of the current tv deal.  Wales would always have been less confident and probably, in eagerness to secure some kind of financial future have shaken hands on some level of guaranteed money or preferential rights to hosting the final as a kicker to take the side of PRL and LNR.

If I'm honest, I think the regions caved in about 6 months earlier than they needed to, and could have gotten a better deal for themselves.

I'd expect the aim now to be to have an announcement/launch on the next european competition sometime between the 6Ns and the semis/final of the last ever HC.

alasbut100ofus it's the PRL getting all the flack no? Despite them not being the only opposition.

I think it's good that the PRL can keep the power of the RFU in check yes. I think there is a relatively harmonious relationship - PRL and RFU. I want this to continue.

You talk about developing the game at all levels. Do you know for example how much AP clubs help the local community? It's a lot. It's not just the RFU who help develop the game at all levels.

Out of interest have the Italians made any comment on this or are they following the IRFU and SRU approach?

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

You call fence sitting noble now? I think the PRL have been brave, taking all the flack whereas others hide behind them.

I say fence-sitting, when you're a central character in a debate, is not noble.  
That doesn't infer PRL is ignoble, nor have I claimed so.  
They've done what any opportunistic, privately run body would do - try to enhance their market share.  I don't call that brave, I call it opportunistic - as you call any company that tries to buy a controlling shareholding in another company.

You argue that the PRL have more power than RFU.  I'll disagree with you.  But I will agree that they are attempting to 'make it so' in their current battle.  

Let's see if the eventual declared 'position' of the RFU finally gives PRL the right to call the RFU their child.  

Secretfly it is brave when there is quite a risk and they get all the flack. The French clubs have a similar stance to the English but have positioned themselves in a way that they can use the PRL as a shield if need be.

The PRL have shown excellent bravery and resolve to take on the might of the unions.

Golden wrote:Out of interest have the Italians made any comment on this or are they following the IRFU and SRU approach?

I'd assume they need all the allies they can get (as the large lads belly around looking for power without even seeing them)...and it seems IRFU/SRU are the only ones left.  I hope the IRFU/SRU don't let me down in the final draft of the agreement in that regard.

Beshocked - can you please square a couple of circles for me.....

You say the welsh teams can join the AP and you also mention that the PRL are not just Saracens,Leicester,Bath,Saints etc. It's the likes of Worcester,Newcastle and London Irish too. Just wondering which english clubs drop out of the AP to make way for the Welsh teams?

[quote="thebandwagonsociety"]Not sure what all the fuss is about on the ERC, it was only set up in Ireland to avail of the low corporation tax on any commercial deals it signed and allow those proceeds to be repatriated to its stakeholders in a tax efficient manner. There will be plenty of that BT money that just ends up as part of a cheque to the HMRC. Could be more than a fifth the value of the overall contract all being said.

the ERC fuss as you refer to it, is not about tax, or location in Ireland. it is about the fact it was perceived by some of its members to be incompetent, uncommercial, unrepresentative, unresponsive and run as fiefdom by a power-hungry mad french dentist. (can you tell i just had a coffee!)

the tax stuff is a total red herring. set it up as a not-for-proft pretty much anywhere and it wont pay tax. ERC distributed all of its revenues bar the small franction required to keep ERC itself running so it never paid much tax on profit anyway.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly it is brave when there is quite a risk and they get all the flack. The French clubs have a similar stance to the English but have positioned themselves in a way that they can use the PRL as a shield if need be.

The PRL have shown excellent bravery and resolve to take on the might of the unions.

No they haven't. They are in debt. They sneaked a deal with BT, and so if it all goes belly up then they have some sort of financial security for a domestic competition. They did this without any concern as to the damage it might cause to the European cup, and the Unions involved. They also knew that if their plans went belly up then the RFU would be unlikely to take action against them. That's not brave. Reckless? yes.

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly it is brave when there is quite a risk and they get all the flack. The French clubs have a similar stance to the English but have positioned themselves in a way that they can use the PRL as a shield if need be.

The PRL have shown excellent bravery and resolve to take on the might of the unions.

Beshocked.............. hard nosed businessmen in the 21st century don't give a damn about 'flack' coming their way.  You seriously think PRL and LNR are worried about the flack they are taking?  Really, you'll have to try harder to make me sympathetic for hordes of suited guys with accountants, and projection analyists, and spin doctors and expense accounts following after them in their wake.

This is the modern world.  It's a power struggle, nothing else.

And in reference to the LNR.  Yes, they are in the same boat as PRL, but since there are few French 606ers to chat with, the obvious emphasis for us here is the English posters and their PRL.  You can't chat to shadows.  
Or................. hmmmm,................... trying to talk with the RFU these last few months must have felt that way

I think few if any people are wedded to the ERC. A new body would cause no concerns so long as the voting rights on it are such that the clubs narrow interests cannot rule. the wider game needs to be represented thru the unions and it must be constituted so no one group can outvote the others.

I would be happy to keep the ERC, but if a new body is the price to pay then thats fine so long as the provisos above are in place

Totalflanker why must sides drop out? Scrapping the LV Cup would free up some games.

Secretfly you are right. No I don't think they are worried but then again I am not really that sympathetic to the unions point of view because it's their own interests at stake also.

Fair point - but my calculation you so need to find an extra 2 weekends beyond current LV 6 game commitments. Might be wrong but I thought some of the discussion was in terms of reducing games not increasing?

Also how do you tie in the European picture - all talk is of meritocracy, but with an amalgamated league do you propose guaranteeing some welsh or for that matter some English teams places?

If the 4 welsh join the AP then there would still only be 6 places for the AP under the prls own proposals.  According the the PRL its all about equal shares per league

this is very unlikely tho IMO.

Totalflanker it's a tough one. I haven't really thought hard about the possibility of the Welsh joining the English but now the Welsh have played their hand I will have to think about it.

beshocked wrote:Totalflanker why must sides drop out? Scrapping the LV Cup would free up some games.

Secretfly you are right. No I don't think they are worried but then again I am not really that sympathetic to the unions point of view because it's their own interests at stake also.

Is it? Do you mean in the wider sense of 'the continued existence of the professional game in Scotland', for example? Doesn't really sound that much like self-interest to me?  

alasbut100ofus do you think that the SRU was thinking of the professional game in Scotland when they scrapped one of their clubs leaving them with only two professional clubs?

The SRU cares about themselves just as the RFU care about themselves, the WRU care about themselves, club care about themselves and so on.

The Unions are far from perfect.

The WRU have been openly threatening the regions regarding them signing a new participation agreement with the WRU. The regions have been asking for more money (most publicised in the central-contracts debate and culminating in the PWC report) but the WRU are refusing to budge on their current stance. With the drain of players out of Wales, the WRU still win in their goals but the regions lose out in theirs, you would assume of course there would be some shared goals, unfortunately it doesnt seem so, up until possibly now.

Without signing the participation agreement the regions would have no officials, no competitions to play in and the players would have no insurance, not to mention the regions having no funding. They'd cease to exist in every aspect in essence. RRW have fired a shot across everyones faces at the WRU to suggest that they'd be welcome elsewhere, although I dont see any other union giving them the funding and status they'd need.

Its either an (empty) threat from the regions at the WRU, or (and more likely) there's some negotiating going on behind the scenes between the clubs/unions involved.

I wish some of you would stop making things up and then shouting them as facts. Its less about setting up a new fair competition for everyone and the good of rugby as it is money and a clubs vs unions power struggle, and the fat cats than run them as such.

Comfort wrote:The WRU have been openly threatening the regions regarding them signing a new participation agreement with the WRU. The regions have been asking for more money (most publicised in the central-contracts debate and culminating in the PWC report) but the WRU are refusing to budge on their current stance. With the drain of players out of Wales, the WRU still win in their goals but the regions lose out in theirs, you would assume of course there would be some shared goals, unfortunately it doesnt seem so, up until possibly now.

Without signing the participation agreement the regions would have no officials, no competitions to play in and the players would have no insurance, not to mention the regions having no funding. They'd cease to exist in every aspect in essence. RRW have fired a shot across everyones faces at the WRU to suggest that they'd be welcome elsewhere, although I dont see any other union giving them the funding and status they'd need.

Its either an (empty) threat from the regions at the WRU, or (and more likely) there's some negotiating going on behind the scenes between the clubs/unions involved.

I wish some of you would stop making things up and then shouting them as facts. Its less about setting up a new fair competition for everyone and the good of rugby as it is money and a clubs vs unions power struggle, and the fat cats than run them as such.

I hope youre right.

Yeah Comfort, some people have jumped the gun. Offering their condolences for a competition is hardly saying "We are going to join you." I do not doubt the Regions have considered it, but it was likely to also be a tactic to get the WRU to revise their offer to the Regions. Still disapointing behaviour though.

WRU are far from perfect. Though this current hierarchy can be credited with a lot of good stuff such as profit-making and improving our development structure.

beshocked wrote:alasbut100ofus do you think that the SRU was thinking of the professional game in Scotland when they scrapped one of their clubs leaving them with only two professional clubs?

The SRU cares about themselves just as the RFU care about themselves, the WRU care about themselves, club care about themselves and so on.

The Unions are far from perfect.

I thought that was due to it being financially unsustainable? The Welsh had 5 regions originally, before the Celtic Warriors dropped out due to being bankrupt.

Some question whether the AP can really support 12 teams for the same reason. Debt is a very real issue there, although taking some money from other Unions may help ease that burden, along with this big pot of gold offered by BT. It is a question of survival for some. Not self-interest verging on greed.

I agree. The Unions are not perfect, but I would much prefer the Unions to the likes of PRL/LNR.

Guns, Comfort is correct in saying that without the WRU the Regions have no officials, insurance, funding, etc. I also know hell of a lot of fans are disapointed with the Regions. It's going to look bleak for them without a union and fan base. Though I can also tell you, a joint league with the Anglo's would certainly bring the crowds back in. We have a situation here.