Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

SecretFly wrote:only reason BT vision wanted a slice of the pie was because they envied what they saw... so much for worthlessness, quins.

Speaking of which - the new competition should give bonus points for profit - and big crowds.  A lot of you seem to feel more strongly about those issues than a ball and thirty men on a field

now, now, toys, pram, etc.

HC/Amlin has value. ERC does not. it's an administrative company.

not bonus points for profit, but i would love the new competition to pay more out on a performance basis.

no toys or prams, quins.  Maybe just pertinent points hitting a target

HC/Amlin was run by ERC - successfully.  BT Vision is only interested in a product that works.  That was the lure.  ERC involved RFU, ERC involved PRL, ERC involved LNR.  These entities were not frustrated onlookers - they were shareholders.  If weakness existed then all those organisation share part of the blame - an equal part.
But no, I don't believe that there was weakness, anymore than I believe the new admin company will be perfect.

Paying more on 'performance'?  In what sense?  Scoresheets/games won?  Or profit/attendance numbers?

profit/attendance numbers already pay more if better, by definition

i mean make 30% of the revenues payable by performance rather than the 15% currently. would surely benefit the irish. but i think it would motivate everyone, and may even get the french excited about winning away matches  

Just give the trophy to the team that makes the most profits. They deserve it more than a team that can pass and move more accurately and tackle harder than the rest.

Anyway,

If I was the PRL I definitely would have been trying to get the Welsh in from the start. They're run by private owners too. And they are in financial difficulty. They were the most vulnerable to "financial oblivion" and more likely to join the franglo's. So I'm not very surprised at all by this. Getting the Welsh regions to break ranks was always the most likely "divide and conquer" tactic.

For the rabo's unity was their best hope of facing down the franglo businessmen. Unfortunately the Welsh businessmen were looking at probably massive losses without the HC and have jumped ship to save themselves. I can only see the three other rabo's joining the new competition now. Unless the FFR or IRB get involved to stop any club takeover.

Did I hear that there will be limits on foreign players in the new tournament? If so that offsets rabo fears of losing all their players to the franglo's a bit. If the rabo's get 6 qualifiers but at least one from each country, that offsets the Scottish Italian fears of losing out on the top table. If the 2nd tier get the same TV payments as the 1st tier than that also relieves some rabo financial worries.

My big fear over whether the franglo's will be in control of decision making in the new tournament. If so there's nothing to stop them continuously changing the rules over the years incrementally to benefit themselves. In fact I'm 100% certain they'd do that because they've showed time and again that obviously, they're more concerned with their own bottom lines than the greater good of European rugby outside their little chiefdoms.

Overall, I think this is going to end as a "win" for the Franglo's. Hopefully there won't be to much gloating. And maybe it's a win that was inevitable from the day the game went pro. It was only a matter of time. But hopefully the rabo's will get enough concessions to secure themselves as competitive entities and not academies for English and French clubs. If we get that, and Leinster can continue hold onto most of their homegrown players, and we still get to watch European rugby, then at least there's that.

But I still believe handing control of the European Cup to the club owners of the two biggest nations is very dangerous for the future of rugby.

Jaysus we seem to have been debating this forever. Surely it's near the end now. Time for a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06-aFAqlA08

quinsforever wrote:profit/attendance numbers already pay more if better, by definition

i mean make 30% of the revenues payable by performance rather than the 15% currently. would surely benefit the irish. but i think it would motivate everyone, and may even get the french excited about winning away matches  

But the object is to keep the competition 'competitive' - correct?

That's a fine balance between rewarding effort and performance, as you rightly say, and not letting the present day top sides use accumulated wealth to.........em, stay there, as it were.

So the reward must have meaning but not meaning enough that it reduces the lesser sides to eternal cannon fodder.  

We do all still want a genuinely 'competitive' Competition don't we?  I do hope that's the truth and not an aspiration quickly dropped when the deal is signed....

as for profit and attendance.......................... well, we all know there's always room for more and more growth.  Profit on top of profit.

good post reckless. i agree with almost everything you posted. i dont think the franglos will be in control of everything. i think they will definitely have responsibility for maximising the commercial side of RCC. but i suspect any major changes will require union support.

i think you will be pleasantly surprised how little gloating from the anglos there would be if you are right.

the chorus is the key message...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzqiPvGrkTo

Feckless - 6 from 4 unions is not enough.  Needs to be 8 minimum.  No one has yet given any logical reason why 4 unions lose 40% of their representation - the 4 smallest and 2 unions  the biggest lose none.

6 from the Rabo unions means that far too many of the unions will not have decent representation and that will have bad adverse effects. If its only 6 for the rabo unions I would rather walk away.

Notch wrote:The Welsh are more English than Celtic to be fair. They are always bellyaching about how they'd prefer to jump into bed with the English.

Ireland and Scotland share a closer bond.

You can have one too Notch:

Tw@t

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:The Welsh are more English than Celtic to be fair. They are always bellyaching about how they'd prefer to jump into bed with the English.

Ireland and Scotland share a closer bond.

You can have one too Notch:

Tw@t

I don't know why, but Griff's reply there really tickled me!

Sorry, carry on.

Griff always seems a decent poster from what I've seen. Think he's had enough of all the snipes at the Welsh. He makes his feelings known in a pleasingly economical fashion doesn't he?  

So are the ERC boys still busy in Dublin?

I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it. When it come to the welsh regions i will leave it to Mr Churchill.

“Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

stub wrote:So are the ERC boys still busy in Dublin?

Apparently so. Maybe not hear anything for a while yet, but hopefully not too long as some guys will spontaneously combust  

tecphobe wrote:I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it. When it come to the welsh regions i will leave it to Mr Churchill.

“Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

It would be a very crap cup with just the 3 league champions in it, let's say Leinster, Leicester and Toulouse. There's not even an even number to get 2 fixtures. Round robin???

tecphobe wrote:I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it....

Ospreys.

Munchkin - I think some already have....

Very simply we don't know what is being negotiated right now. Since most public statements were simply spin released for our amusement, our speculation is not really based on very much.

All we can hope for is a swift resolution and structures put in place which protects and hopefully improves the finances of each team. And the proper governance which ensures compliance with the agreements.

Not sure exactly why the Welsh Regions came out of the closet now, but there must be a reason. I am sure we will know soon enough.

Casartelli wrote:

tecphobe wrote:I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it....

Ospreys.

Are they?

Casartelli wrote:

tecphobe wrote:I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it....

Ospreys.

The one true Region Didnt realise we were counting Rabo's. On a serious note Wales being successful, union making money, Wales were seriously overdue some internal feuding  

doctor_grey wrote:Very simply we don't know what is being negotiated right now.  Since most public statements were simply spin released for our amusement, our speculation is not really based on very much.  

All we can hope for is a swift resolution and structures put in place which protects and hopefully improves the finances of each team.  And the proper governance which ensures compliance with the agreements.  

Not sure exactly why the Welsh Regions came out of the closet now, but there must be a reason.  I am sure we will know soon enough.  

Spin?

stub wrote:Munchkin - I think some already have....

Maybe that's why it has gone so quiet  

ERc meeting continues tomorrow. wouldnt expect any statements til tmrw afternoon unless there are leaks from the mtg.

tecphobe wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

tecphobe wrote:I'M not sure how they can call it a Champions Cup with the welsh regions in it....

Ospreys.

The one true Region ;)Didnt realise we were counting Rabo's. On a serious note Wales being successful, union making money, Wales were seriously overdue some internal feuding  

What's the Franglo proposal then? English league 'Champions' play the Top 14 'Champions' in a one-off super final?

That'll bring the big bucks in.

quinsforever wrote:ERc meeting continues tomorrow. wouldnt expect any statements til tmrw afternoon unless there are leaks from the mtg.

Have they run out of prawn sandwiches?

Did I say prawn sandwiches - silly me. It'd be lobster and truffle panini as a minimum, garnished with caviare and gold plated crudite. Don't want any of the slush fund in the bank to fall into the hands of those peasants running the clubs.

Where's the Titanic violin when you need it. This is fierce moving.

TJ wrote:Feckless - 6 from 4 unions is not enough.  Needs to be 8 minimum.  No one has yet given any logical reason why 4 unions lose 40% of their representation - the 4 smallest and 2 unions  the biggest lose none.

6 from the Rabo unions means that far too many of the unions will not have decent representation and that will have bad adverse effects.  If its only 6 for the rabo unions I would rather walk away.

We've given you a reason, TJ. You just don't like it or agree with it. I'll say it again: it is inequitable that in a sporting competition one group of teams should be given automatic qualification when others are not. It distorts not just the HEC but the Amlin and Rabo as well, and the "points for qualifying" seeding system just exacerbates it. The fact that they represent multiple unions is important - which is why a 4+2 compromise has been offered - but it's not over-riding.

By the same token, you have yet to give any real reason why one league should have more places, and less meritocratic qualification, than another. "Because it represents more unions" isn't a reason. There's nothing magical about unions. There are many unions that aren't represented in the HEC at all. Should they all have qualifying places? They don't today, but under the PRL/LNR proposals they'd have a European competition of their own and access to the second tier competition.

Which is another point. All the Rabo teams would have access to European competition and money. It's simply that those who performed less well in the previous year's Rabo would be competing in the second tier.

I think that, in the medium term, three tiers, 6/6/6 +2 in the top tier and even split of money across leagues would actually be better for the Rabo teams (and their blessed unions) than the status quo:
1) A more evenly competitive top tier would be more exciting, worth more, and better preparation for Internationals
2) A more competitive second tier with representation from more unions would be more exciting, and a bigger tv and live draw
3) A new third tier would help emerging nations to develop their professional game and give them the chance to mix with bigger clubs (see 2). [But this can't possibly be true. The PRL looking out for rugby as a whole, rather than their own narrow interests. The very thought!]
4) No-one gets less cash (assuming the Rabo agrees an even distribution between top tier and second tier qualifiers) and there's the potential to increase the cash for everyone if the remaining tv rights are properly negotiated and the second tier is marketed properly.

What is there to lose by accepting those proposals? Well, there's pride, automatic access to the top tier, the option to not take Rabo games seriously, and a distribution of cash that sees one third of the teams get a load more cash than the other two thirds. All of which are in-built advantages for a minority of the competing teams. RRW and the SRU seem to think it's a decent trade-off. It's actually possible that the Irish provinces do, too, but haven't said so in public. We don't know what they are lobbying the IRFU for behind closed doors.

What is there to lose by not accepting them? Money (which, contrary to popular Celtic belief, all the teams need. It's either naive or disingenuous to repeatedly criticise the PRL clubs for making a loss and then to criticise them for wanting not to make a loss, and doing something about it by trying to get equal shares of European money at a team level). European competition.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERc meeting continues tomorrow. wouldnt expect any statements til tmrw afternoon unless there are leaks from the mtg.

Have they run out of prawn sandwiches?

i heard they cancelled the usual caviar and first class seats bag of goodies in favour of a large ERC-baked humble pie

Poorfour wrote:

TJ wrote:Feckless - 6 from 4 unions is not enough.  Needs to be 8 minimum.  No one has yet given any logical reason why 4 unions lose 40% of their representation - the 4 smallest and 2 unions  the biggest lose none.

6 from the Rabo unions means that far too many of the unions will not have decent representation and that will have bad adverse effects.  If its only 6 for the rabo unions I would rather walk away.

We've given you a reason, TJ. You just don't like it or agree with it. I'll say it again: it is inequitable that in a sporting competition one group of teams should be given automatic qualification when others are not. It distorts not just the HEC but the Amlin and Rabo as well, and the "points for qualifying" seeding system just exacerbates it. The fact that they represent multiple unions is important - which is why a 4+2 compromise has been offered - but it's not over-riding.

By the same token, you have yet to give any real reason why one league should have more places, and less meritocratic qualification, than another. "Because it represents more unions" isn't a reason. There's nothing magical about unions. There are many unions that aren't represented in the HEC at all. Should they all have qualifying places? They don't today, but under the PRL/LNR proposals they'd have a European competition of their own and access to the second tier competition.

Which is another point. All the Rabo teams would have access to European competition and money. It's simply that those who performed less well in the previous year's Rabo would be competing in the second tier.

I think that, in the medium term, three tiers, 6/6/6 +2 in the top tier and even split of money across leagues would actually be better for the Rabo teams (and their blessed unions) than the status quo:
1) A more evenly competitive top tier would be more exciting, worth more, and better preparation for Internationals
2) A more competitive second tier with representation from more unions would be more exciting, and a bigger tv and live draw
3) A new third tier would help emerging nations to develop their professional game and give them the chance to mix with bigger clubs (see 2). [But this can't possibly be true. The PRL looking out for rugby as a whole, rather than their own narrow interests. The very thought!]
4) No-one gets less cash (assuming the Rabo agrees an even distribution between top tier and second tier qualifiers) and there's the potential to increase the cash for everyone if the remaining tv rights are properly negotiated and the second tier is marketed properly.

What is there to lose by accepting those proposals? Well, there's pride, automatic access to the top tier, the option to not take Rabo games seriously, and a distribution of cash that sees one third of the teams get a load more cash than the other two thirds. All of which are in-built advantages for a minority of the competing teams. RRW and the SRU seem to think it's a decent trade-off. It's actually possible that the Irish provinces do, too, but haven't said so in public. We don't know what they are lobbying the IRFU for behind closed doors.

What is there to lose by not accepting them? Money (which, contrary to popular Celtic belief, all the teams need. It's either naive or disingenuous to repeatedly criticise the PRL clubs for making a loss and then to criticise them for wanting not to make a loss, and doing something about it by trying to get equal shares of European money at a team level). European competition.

There's the lobster panini to lose for the Union fatcats, that's an important factor. Seems like it might be insuperable. What's the chances of the meeting being extended because of discussions about how many "dignitaries" get the first class travel, 5star hotels and dining all paid for by the efforts of 30 blokes on the field risking their pain, fitness and long term health?

Goodness guys, lighten up. The PRL haven't lost........yet

If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

money is not dependent on HC qualification, its proposed to be by league. how the league divides it up is up to them. would imagine rabo will do the same as AP and top14, and divide the monies more or less equally between all their teams in HC and Amlin.

Poorfour wrote:

It is inequitable that in a sporting competition one group of teams should be given automatic qualification when others are not.

No it's inequitable that automatic qualification of six English clubs and automatic qualification of six French clubs is considered less equitable than the automatic qualification of three Irish sides, the automatic qualification of thee Welsh sides, the automatic qualification of two Scottish sides and the automatic qualification of two Italian sides.
Union representation is not important to you - it is to us.

By the same token, you have yet to give any real reason why one league should have more places, and less meritocratic qualification, than another. "Because it represents more unions" isn't a reason. There's nothing magical about unions. There are many unions that aren't represented in the HEC at all.

 
So let's try suggesting the English Union doesn't get represented.  Nothing magical about Unions.  There are many Unions that aren't represented.  Except of course that six English club entries always assures English Union involvement.  Huh?  
Union representation is not important to you - it is to us.

Which is another point. All the Rabo teams would have access to European competition and money. It's simply that those who performed less well in the previous year's Rabo would be competing in the second tier.

Thanks.  Generous.  Now let's see what happens when Leicester, Saints, Saracens and Quins have a terrible year and get dropped into the second tier themselves.  What happens?  Miraculously, English players still get to play in the top tier - different clubs, same Union, same benefits to the national team.  No sacrifice made for poor form.
Again, Union representation is not important to you - it is to us.

What is there to lose by not accepting [PRL proposals] Money (which, contrary to popular Celtic belief, all the teams need. It's either naive or disingenuous to repeatedly criticise the PRL clubs for making a loss and then to criticise them for wanting not to make a loss, and doing something about it by trying to get equal shares of European money at a team level). European competition.

It's disingenuous that any side would pretend concern for the finances of any opposing League or indeed Nation.  So whilst some Pro12 stalwarts might criticise PRL clubs for making a loss, the same giggles come from English PRL supporters when they talk about the poverty stricken Pro12 and it's poor attendances.
So affected concern all round and nobody honestly gives a damn which sides struggle in which external League.  PRL club viability is its concern.  How it wishes to make more money is its concern.  The Euroean competition - rules and funding - is our concern - as individual Nations because again, we don't share concerns in the real world.  You have no concerns for Union - we have.

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

money is not dependent on HC qualification, its proposed to be by league. how the league divides it up is up to them. would imagine rabo will do the same as AP and top14, and divide the monies more or less equally between all their teams in HC and Amlin.

So what happens if the other unions kick wales out of the Rabo*? How do the Welsh teams qualify for the Heineken Cup?

*It would make sense to do that as they would get more money and more spots!

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

They'll get equal participation shares, which you know full well unless you've kept yourself deliberately ignorant for the last 15 or so months.

That's not the point, though. How will the Union fatcats maintain their gravy train - that's the blockage.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

They'll get equal participation shares, which you know full well unless you've kept yourself deliberately ignorant for the last 15 or so months.

That's not the point, though. How will the Union fatcats maintain their gravy train - that's the blockage.

Well, the Scots, Italian & Irish own their teams, so they will still be getting their hands on the funds.

The WRU won't need to fund the regions, so they will save themselves that money.

By the way, a Union (IRFU) that has paid off its brand new stadium in 4 years and has reserves of €60m is a well run union. Unlike most of the privately owned clubs in England and France.

Dubbelyew L Overate

Wahts to lose byu accepting thee proposal - (6/6/6+2)

an end to pro rugby in scotland and Italy in a few years, badly damnaged pro rugby in Wales and Italy

Why? the french and English are intending to help themselves to a share of the cake of twice the size they have now and will price the smaller unions teams out of the market for players. No chance of getting into the top teir ever for the teams that miss out. No one is interested in watching or playing in the second teir so sponsorship and gates would be valueless.

Stop with the nonsense its good for Rugby - its not at all. Its disastrous and will mean the endo of pro rugby in scotland, an end to a competative 6N. if thtys what you want support eh rPRL. Don't pretend its good for rugby. Its not.

The Welsh region owners have spotted an opportunity to improve their gates and timed their last minute change of heart to load the dice in their favour.

Siding with the PRL keeps their options open and is something they have always wanted. The regions supposedly can command much better gates against English opposition than Irish/Scots/Italians. Up to now the English haven't wanted them, apart from throwing them the LV bone, but the potential isolation of the PRL will have made them listen a bit harder to the Welsh cause.
So worst case for the RRW is that they get an unsanctioned Frangelsh tournament but stay in the P12 because the rest of the P12 can't afford to throw them out.
Arguably the best case for the regions is that they're invited into a 12+4 AP league with no Euro competition for anyone.

Either way the RRW have shown no loyalty to their Union or league or indeed the ethos of rugby - supposedly being part of the P12 team but then switching to the other side at the 79th minute to sway the result is morally reprehensible. Their short term, short notice political machinations may have finally convinced some fans how untrustworthy and manipulative they really are and paradoxically lower their gate receipts rather than the reverse.

If the welsh clubs split from their union they will be thrown out of the PRO12, their players will be banned from international rugby and it will be a huge horrible mess

Sin é wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

They'll get equal participation shares, which you know full well unless you've kept yourself deliberately ignorant for the last 15 or so months.

That's not the point, though. How will the Union fatcats maintain their gravy train - that's the blockage.

Well, the Scots, Italian & Irish own their teams, so they will still be getting their hands on the funds.

The WRU won't need to fund the regions, so they will save themselves that money.

By the way, a Union (IRFU) that has paid off its brand new stadium in 4 years and has reserves of €60m is a well run union. Unlike most of the privately owned clubs in England and France.

Yawn. the IRFU is losing 4.5m per annum and that scares your treasurer, but you're not going to present all the financials now are you Sin e. anyway, we've been around this a few times. what say we all call it a truce until they come out with whatever they are going to come out with tomorrow.

will be lots to fight about then i am sure!

TJ wrote:If the welsh clubs split from their union they will be thrown out of the PRO12, their players will be banned from international rugby and it will be a huge horrible mess

But then their players can leave, and join the newly formed Union owned Welsh regions

Didn't the government pay roughly half the building cost of the Aviva stadium?

quinsforever wrote:
the IRFU is losing 4.5m per annum and that scares your treasurer

Some of which concerns the fortunes of the Irish International side, Quins - those few seasons of really poor performances.  Things won't improve any with players leaving for sides that have more guarantees of being in the top tier Euro Contest.  But of course some forward thinking coaches in England and France are already aware of those impending stresses if they get their way on structures.  But the brief continues to be that we're all in the one boat, wanting what's best for rugby in ALL the 6Ns...

Meanwhile, didn't RFU make a loss of 6.3 million last year?  So everyone is under pressure - we just perhaps have location and cultural dependent differences of opinion on how to extract ourselves from them

aviva stadium cost €410 million (inclusive of €191 government funding). so yup.

indeed they can - and i wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't do it immediately =based on a breach of contract. However this is very far fetched. I doubt a split will come. Its just a brazen attempt to put pressure on the WRU and again indicative of why the unions must remain in control of the game as tehy have the wider interests of the game at heart - not just the enrichement of a few egotistical owners

The unions must remain masters of the game

IRB chairman Bernard Lapasset Sep 24, 2013

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
the IRFU is losing 4.5m per annum and that scares your treasurer

Some of which concerns the fortunes of the Irish International side, Quins - those few seasons of really poor performances.  Things won't improve any with players leaving for sides that have more guarantees of being in the top tier Euro Contest.  But of course some forward thinking coaches in England and France are already aware of those impending stresses if they get their way on structures.  But the brief continues to be that we're all in the one boat, wanting what's best for rugby in ALL the 6Ns...

Meanwhile, didn't RFU make a loss of 6.3 million last year?  So everyone is under pressure - we just perhaps have location and cultural dependent differences of opinion on how to extract ourselves from them

gimme a break secretfly. if club strength and performance and national team performance are so intricately entwined how come wales and ireland are equally opposite counterexamples? that boat dont float. and your national team performance only affects your finances via ticket sales. thats it.

Munchkin wrote:

TJ wrote:If the welsh clubs split from their union they will be thrown out of the PRO12, their players will be banned from international rugby and it will be a huge horrible mess

But then their players can leave, and join the newly formed Union owned Welsh regions

that's rogers sweetest dream,also remember in the not to distant future the WRU will be awash with money,(millenium dept paid off)

mr-bryns-attitude wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

TJ wrote:If the welsh clubs split from their union they will be thrown out of the PRO12, their players will be banned from international rugby and it will be a huge horrible mess

But then their players can leave, and join the newly formed Union owned Welsh regions

that's rogers sweetest dream,also remember in the not to distant future the WRU will be awash with money,(millenium dept paid off)

Well it was tongue in cheek....sort of. Yep, there will be much more money available I would think, and also the RRW contracts are up in December if my understanding is correct. Maybe issuing that statement on the eve of the ERC meeting was a tad premature  

quinsforever wrote:

gimme a break secretfly. if club strength and performance and national team performance are so intricately entwined how come wales and ireland are equally opposite counterexamples?

that boat dont float. and your national team performance only affects your finances via ticket sales. thats it.

Coach is the answer to your first point.  Oh the boat floats okay..and you know I'm right about the forward thinking PRL/LNR guys.  
I'm not dumb
- you're not dumb
and they're not dumb.  

Far too much of this debate revolves around us all pretending we think the other guy is dumb.  But we all know the score.  The new project is planned to work on many different levels - thus the complexity because behind the scenes all execs at the table know the underlying compulsions of market driven private club owners.

On your other point .  National team performance only affects our finances via ticket sales?  Yeah - that's the very point.  You think that kind of activity or lack of it doesn't factor in to a 4.5 million loss?  Is that your point?  Why did RFU make a loss of that 6.3 million last year?

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:If its based on meritocracy, what will happen to the 4 Welsh Regions. Who do they compete with to win their place on merit?

If the Irish, Scots & Italians decide to join in and it is based on meritocracy (the top 6 in the Rabbo which would probably  be 3 Irish, 1 Scot 2 Welsh), how are the finances of the 2 non-top 6 Welsh teams going to survive? Are they going to be dependent on the kindness of the Os & Scarlets?

They'll get equal participation shares, which you know full well unless you've kept yourself deliberately ignorant for the last 15 or so months.

That's not the point, though. How will the Union fatcats maintain their gravy train - that's the blockage.

Well, the Scots, Italian & Irish own their teams, so they will still be getting their hands on the funds.

The WRU won't need to fund the regions, so they will save themselves that money.

By the way, a Union (IRFU) that has paid off its brand new stadium in 4 years and has reserves of €60m is a well run union. Unlike most of the privately owned clubs in England and France.

Yawn. the IRFU is losing 4.5m per annum and that scares your treasurer, but you're not going to present all the financials now are you Sin e. anyway, we've been around this a few times. what say we all call it a truce until they come out with whatever they are going to come out with tomorrow.

will be lots to fight about then i am sure!

Eh? The IRFU had a surplus of €7.8m in 2011. LOL.
The IRFU had a surplus of €14.9m last April. This was due to a once-off compensation payment from Puma of 11.5m which means the surplus was €3.4m.

If you check out page 41 of the IRFU's annual report you will see that the IRFU have reserves of 59,861,000 (i.e., cash in hand to sustain it for a couple of years without Heineken Cup Rugby).

Without Heineken Cup Rugby, I'd imagine that that international games would sell-out a lot quicker - and maybe the IRFU would be able to flog some of those 10 year seats that they didn't sell recently.

Now, would you ever stop peddling this line that the IRFU are in financial difficulties. They are prudent managers of their funds - hardly surprising that they are when they have Tom Grace (formerly head of PriceWaterhouseCoopers Insolvency Dept) that they are going to be run conservatively.