Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

Not having a strong 10 explains some of it...even the lions success. Sexton made good use of the back line and RP was terrible I thought. Possession and territory doesn't always translate to success. The ABs are often behind in both. What the stats can never illustrate are those sublime moments that create tries and for the period the boks went flat wales just made too many errors, tried but didn't create chances, leaving the boks to practically wait out the win. Those moments vs England for example just didn't come, and they needed to.

Taylorman wrote:Not having a strong 10 explains some of it...even the lions success. Sexton made good use of the back line and RP was terrible I thought. Possession and territory doesn't always translate to success. The ABs are often behind in both. What the stats can never illustrate are those sublime moments that create tries and for the period the boks went flat wales just made too many errors, tried but didn't create chances, leaving the boks to practically wait out the win. Those moments vs England for example just didn't come, and they needed to.

He was poor, especially with the boot, which is the weakest aspect of his game. But Mike was not helping. His very first pass of the match was a horror which JD somehow managed to turn into a linebreak. His general slowness makes the rest of the backline look bad.

It was a bit worrying to see Liam Williams get trampled like that. He's obviously got a huge heart, but that was no sort of tackle. Beck is not international standard, but right now there's nobody else.

Call up for Lee Byrne?

Biltong wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Well I'd argue the lead built was washed away, bar 2 points... the lead handed to them was, yes, protected, and protected well :-)

No one hands you a lead , you take it . Boks took their 3 chances and took them well

Won't argue that the boks took what was on offer (i.e. taking their chances), whether it was handed or not is a different matter .

My point is that it was not necessarily their control that produced that chance to defend a lead they found they had at that point in the game.

RDSguru, admittedly Fourie was a smdgeon in front of de Preez on the kick, but by the same token, Wales got a penalty when Haana tracked back that was BLATANTLY a penalty to SA not Wales.

When Halfpenny was lying all over Habana as the tackler pleading for a penalty he got it.

So those three points were extrememely fortuitous.

As we all know we all get some for us and against us, I am not complaining about the offside (not happy with it mind).

My gripe is with the way we defended it... in my opinion it was very defendable.

i thought the Wales pack stood there ground to a man and gave there all .But as one bloke said to me if we play till 7pm Sunday we are not going to score a try.Apart from JD THE BACKS LOOKED CLUELESS SIDE TO SIDE AND THEN KICK.Wales never threatened the boks line and maybe that was the game plan if so need another plan.

Question

When did the boks ever lose playing against a side who took them on in a one on one slug match outside of NZ?

England in 03
England in 04
France in 09

It's rare and you need quite a special team to do it. What was Wales strategy... Just beat them?

Even if they had a full strength outfit it wouldn't have mattered.

They were schooled 3 tries to nil is bad. The score line was not a fair reflection.

It's not that Wales are that much worse then SA... But don't play The boks to their strengths, don't get in an arm wrestle because you'll lose.

fa0019 wrote:Question

When did the boks ever lose playing against a side who took them on in a one on one slug match outside of NZ?

England in 03
England in 04
France in 09

It's rare and you need quite a special team to do it. What was Wales strategy... Just beat them?

Even if they had a full strength outfit it wouldn't have mattered.

They were schooled 3 tries to nil is bad. The score line was not a fair reflection.

It's not that Wales are that much worse then SA... But don't play The boks to their strengths, don't get in an arm wrestle because you'll lose.

Fa, you keep saying that and it's obvious. Yes Wales or anyone else shouldn't take on the Boks in an arm wrestle. However, would you tell Argentina or Italy to change the way they play? Probably not. It's just the way they play. The same goes for Wales at the moment.

Let's flip the logic around a bit: SA seem to come unstuck against NZ a lot. You know they're going to run you around, move it away from a slug match. You've discussed it a lot already. So why don't YOU change YOUR game plan? If the answer is that you do not have the players/coaches/playing culture to allow that, then that might be your answer for your Wales question too.

Predictably for this board, Wales lose and the outside half gets the blame! Priestland was not great but SA had done a great job of bullying Wales upfront, in a similar way to Wales bullying England last season. Unfortunately the options Wales have at 10 are Biggar who can only play when his pack are going forward, and Hook who is seriously flakey. For me Priestland is the best of the three but needs some protection from the players around him. Also don't complain about his kicking, it is team orders, Halfpenny, Davies, Hook et al, played exactly the same tactic.

Wales problem is that they are a small country, with only 4 pro sides, who are packed with foreign players. If they can get their best (or close to) 15 on the field they are a match for anyone. But there is very little strength in depth, when the teams lined up yesterday and I looked across Wales replacements, I cringed! Only Owen and Tipuric (and Charteris if fit) are test quality, there are better players that have been left with their clubs.

I thought Wales struggled with the Ref, particularly his willingness to allow SA tacklers to hold on tackled the ground without making any attempt to release. Perhaps Gatland would have known this if he had spoken to Roland before the game.

My changes against Argentina:

James and Lee at prop with Jenkins and Jarvis on the bench, Evans if fit or Charteris instead of Davies (Wales need a lineout target). I would put young Rhodri on the bench to put a bit more pressure on Phillips. Byrne at 15 and then the problems really start. Obviously Scott Williams stays at 12, Halfpenny on one wing with North. This leaves us with a 13 to find, I would probably give Owen Williams a chance, unless Liam Williams is fit in which case North could play 13. Biggar for the bench to put some pressure on Priestland.

Byrne at 15? I thought that train left a long time ago!

I think Wales has the players to play that game, not sure on the coaches and I don't think its something that Wales should do in all instances.... Their plan works well against England for instance.

What I'm saying is that they're not very street smart. The boks this year mixed it up a bit, they are playing a good level of physicality mixed with attacking play. They are not adverse to being multi-functional.

How did Scotland do so well against them in SA earlier in the year, they swamped the breakdown and made the boks uncomfortable., in fact so much so meyer even in victory said the scots taught them a big lesson in test rugby. A tipuric warburton duo was crying out to be played for instance.

Wales has the players.

irnbrew wrote:bedford i was at the game you said Lydiate was quiet maybe but when Lydiate went off Wales defence went to pieces the call has to be do they go with Warbs or Tips that was the point of discussion after the game of the fans that was there and most thought Tips

irnbrew,

Glad to hear that I am one of Dans biggest admirers and he would be first name on my team sheet everytime, maybe I was judging him by his own previous high standards.

Seagultaf wrote:

My changes against Argentina:

James and Lee at prop with Jenkins and Jarvis on the bench, Evans if fit or Charteris instead of Davies (Wales need a lineout target). I would put young Rhodri on the bench to put a bit more pressure on Phillips. Byrne at 15 and then the problems really start. Obviously Scott Williams stays at 12, Halfpenny on one wing with North. This leaves us with a 13 to find, I would probably give Owen Williams a chance, unless Liam Williams is fit in which case North could play 13. Biggar for the bench to put some pressure on Priestland.

Seagul,

I posted yesterday similar changes, I didn't pick Byrne as I just can't see Gatland calling him up so I had Hook at XV through lack of options. There has been calls for a while now for North to be given a shot in the centre and we know Gats likes his boshers there.

Like you said if we move him and with other injuries then we are limited at XV unless he calls someone else up, maybe Jordan Willimas, Dan Evans or even Prydie if not Byrne

Seagultaf wrote:Predictably for this board, Wales lose and the outside half gets the blame! Priestland was not great but SA had done a great job of bullying Wales upfront, in a similar way to Wales bullying England last season. Unfortunately the options Wales have at 10 are Biggar who can only play when his pack are going forward, and Hook who is seriously flakey. For me Priestland is the best of the three but needs some protection from the players around him. Also don't complain about his kicking, it is team orders, Halfpenny, Davies, Hook et al, played exactly the same tactic.

Wales problem is that they are a small country, with only 4 pro sides, who are packed with foreign players. If they can get their best (or close to) 15 on the field they are a match for anyone. But there is very little strength in depth, when the teams lined up yesterday and I looked across Wales replacements, I cringed! Only Owen and Tipuric (and Charteris if fit) are test quality, there are better players that have been left with their clubs.

I thought Wales struggled with the Ref, particularly his willingness to allow SA tacklers to hold on tackled the ground without making any attempt to release. Perhaps Gatland would have known this if he had spoken to Roland before the game.

My changes against Argentina:

James and Lee at prop with Jenkins and Jarvis on the bench, Evans if fit or Charteris instead of Davies (Wales need a lineout target). I would put young Rhodri on the bench to put a bit more pressure on Phillips. Byrne at 15 and then the problems really start. Obviously Scott Williams stays at 12, Halfpenny on one wing with North. This leaves us with a 13 to find, I would probably give Owen Williams a chance, unless Liam Williams is fit in which case North could play 13. Biggar for the bench to put some pressure on Priestland.

Seagultaf, we had two thirds of the possession. You simply cannot go on excusing the failings of the half-backs again and again.

Mike Phillips has his limitations, but there's something to be said for a 9 that can take big, consecutive, hits from DuPlessis and Mtawarira and still recycle the ball.

Priestland is a thoroughly decent regional 10, who hit the form of his life in the pre RWC games, but has been in decline since. And his kicking out of hand has never been consistent enough for top level rugby. At some point Gatland might just concede that his form of 2011 is never coming back.

I dont know what to think, I am really disappointed with our attack, it was so rubbish once JD2 went off.
Our kicking was pony.
SA are a very physical and powerful team but I thought we were almost up to their level, we were smashing them back in defence(as were they us) and we equaled them at the breakdown(when we had same amount of players there, but too often we had players isolated). Richard Hibbard would run through a brick wall.
Our lineout wasnt great, and we were completely schooled in driving mauls.

The tries were taken superbly but apart from the second one they were out of the blue and preventable. 30 seconds before  Habbana even got the ball I could see an imminent try, the gap left by S williams being down was huge, dont see what North could have done, he was defending an acre of ground against one of the most dangerous runners in rugby. The 3rd try was A) a great kick, B) fortunate bounce, C) great play from Fourie, D) awful play from I think Priestland who obviously was hoping it went out but should have made sure.

Thats the annoying thing, if they didnt get that 3rd try we would be only 2 points behind despite being easily second best on the pitch and having no attack. We could have nicked it with a pen. As it was SA deserved to win but we always congratulate top teams for finding a way to win when they shouldnt, we could have done that yesterday.
JD2 was the worst injury we could have had imo, I thought Adam was also but Paul James played well when he came on(didnt see S Andrews). I think all forwards played pretty well.
Congrats SA   The better side and hopefully we can learn some things from you.

North should've taken Habana not took a dummy as he did. Cuthbert gets criticised for it. All a player can do in that situation is nail the man with the ball and if the ball goes out to the guy outside, then that's not his fault.

Was disappointed by Priestland not attempting to throw himself on the ball. Even if he couldn't have got to it, he had to try at least.

I think its obvious by his selection yesterday that Gatland doesn't like or rate Biggar that much, so if Priestland is to be made the scape goat are we back to Hook at 10 again?

Risca Rev wrote:North should've taken Habana not took a dummy as he did. Cuthbert gets criticised for it. All a player can do in that situation is nail the man with the ball and if the ball goes out to the guy outside, then that's not his fault.

Personally I dont agree with that old adage. We hail the defensive guile of the likes of Conrad Smith JDV etc because the mange to cover both players in that situation. North tried to do that, he just wasnt able. Id prefer him to try than just take the 1st man leaving a near certain try if pass goes to hand just so he can put his hands up and say "not my fault".
I going to watch the game again later and maybe you are right but to me it looked like such a huge amount of space I cant really blame him.

I think the damage was already done as soon as Habana spotted he was up against Hibbard, from then on he was behind the defence and North was back tracking, from what I can remember. Not watched it back sober yet lol

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think its obvious by his selection yesterday that Gatland doesn't like or rate Biggar that much, so if Priestland is to be made the scape goat are we back to Hook at 10 again?

Gatland is a solid, if rather unimaginative, coach, but some selections seem to be personal. He just likes some players (Phillips, Roberts, Priestland etc) and takes a dislike to others (Hook, Biggar, Byrne et al).

Biggar suits the way we play, so why not just make him the long term 10?

Cas,

Unless I am mistaken Gatland has never selected Biggar in a 1st choice team, it was Howley that selected him last year and then Gatland ignored Biggar for the Lions.

Maybe his hand will be forced next week or maybe he will stick with Priestland and Hook. Also Patchell is carrying a knock.

Griff wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Question

When did the boks ever lose playing against a side who took them on in a one on one slug match outside of NZ?

England in 03
England in 04
France in 09

It's rare and you need quite a special team to do it. What was Wales strategy... Just beat them?

Even if they had a full strength outfit it wouldn't have mattered.

They were schooled 3 tries to nil is bad. The score line was not a fair reflection.

It's not that Wales are that much worse then SA... But don't play The boks to their strengths, don't get in an arm wrestle because you'll lose.

Fa, you keep saying that and it's obvious. Yes Wales or anyone else shouldn't take on the Boks in an arm wrestle. However, would you tell Argentina or Italy to change the way they play? Probably not. It's just the way they play. The same goes for Wales at the moment.

Let's flip the logic around a bit: SA seem to come unstuck against NZ a lot. You know they're going to run you around, move it away from a slug match. You've discussed it a lot already. So why don't YOU change YOUR game plan? If the answer is that you do not have the players/coaches/playing culture to allow that, then that might be your answer for your Wales question too.

Griff, we did change our game plan, the first test was marred by an unfair red card and at Ellispark they outscored us by five tries to four. Next year will see an improvement.

People are wholly deluded if they think Biggar would have made a difference yesterday. It seems RP is getting criticised for being the most inventive back out there. People are also acting like he was the only one who made a mistake. The term scapegoat comes to mind again.

Agree with you Saint.

I am not sure what they wanted him to do better. If he kicks there aren't good chases, how do you blame him?

If SA kicks and they chase, what must he do?

He sent the ball wide, but his forwards were on the backfoot, there was one specific passage of play where Wales went wide for more than 10 phases outside the SA 22. They didn't make a yard.

He is nt the one that must win the collisions.

By memory I can't think of any obvious mistakes he made. The SA defence was up on the Wlesh backline quickly, because Wales at times struggled to get go forward ball.

Just look at North, every time he got the ball there was no space and he was shut down, not because Priestland were slow, but because the Bok defence were on the front foot most of the time.

The Saint wrote:People are wholly deluded if they think Biggar would have made a difference yesterday. It seems RP is getting criticised for being the most inventive back out there. People are also acting like he was the only one who made a mistake. The term scapegoat comes to mind again.

We would still have lost with Biggar (chances are we would still have lost with Roberts, Cuthbert, Adam J and JD2 on there for 80 mins - but it would have been a hell of a good game!) - but it's the thinking behind the selection that is baffling.

Biggar makes very few mistakes and is a good kicker out of hand.  He doesn't do much else, but then Gatlandball doesn't require much else from a 10 - hence Stephen Jones was usually first choice back in the day.

Hook is down the pecking order because he plays in France (Gatland's own words) and he isn't even a regular 10 any more.  He'll make mistakes but invariably scores more than he concedes.  He also hoofs the ball a mile.

Priestland is a good player (but hopeless punter of a ball) but makes three or four howling errors, every single game, even when he's playing well (missing easy touches from penalties, kicking up and unders that Usain Bolt would struggle to chase down).

All the logic says that Biggar should be first choice until a genuine test class 10 comes along.  I don't even like Biggar, I think he's irritating.

Exactly Bilt. Williams and Beck aren't good chasers. Roberts is probably our best chaser in midfield, North should have done better in the department too.

Though what RP shouldn't do is run at Bok forwards which he did do a few times yesterday, but he wasn't the only one. AWJ was on his own and should have passed the ball, but instead ran into two front-row players and a lock, then had the ball turned over.

Also, I don't think Warbs and Tips would have been the best option for SA. That back-row lacks muscle. You need guys like Lydiate against the Boks, and I thought he did okay yesterday. I'd be willing to change it around for Argentina though.

the myth that biggar can only play when pack is going forward is long gone. the ospreys pack haven't been firing well, biggar has kept them in the games, he steered us in the 6ns through some bad patches of limited possession.
 
some posters are saying don't blame rp for kicking, its the tactics. ok. but surely he should be able to execute the kicks properly. his out of hand kicking has always been suspect, yet we play a game that relies on accurate territorial kicking.
 
again in this game, 3 player overlap, again kicked away. will he say howley told him to kick ?when he did exactly the same thing before his meltdown.
 
how can posters say biggar would not have made a difference. his out of hand kicking is excellent. he is not indecisive, and his defence and tackling work outstrip rp by a mile.
 
rp didn't want any of it yesterday, and if you watch the match again you will see him hanging on doing nothing at a few rucks, instead of being in position in the middle of the park.
 
you can blame tactics all day long, but you can only judge the tactics if they were excecuted correctly, in the right areas of the pitch.
 
that game yesterday, with the amount of possession we had, was crying out for someone to take control, put us in the right areas of the pitch. we were relying on half chances, which were not tactically created.
 
some posters have praised hook. as usual for every  good move he then throws in an idiotic flick, which could have resulted in a try. he did exactly the same dumb 'flick the ball behind me but i don't know who will catch it' in a game not so long ago( can't remember the match, someone will )
 
i'm pleased i was wrong about the cricket score, i said sa would score 30, but i wasn't wrong about rp.
i'm not blaming him for us losing, i'm critical of his poor tactical kicking skills , his indecision, and the fact that he will be on again next game when we have a player who can play the way the welsh management want wales to play.
 
and that is the crux here, we don't have any 10 who plays the way some posters want a welsh 10 to play. but we do have a 10 who can play this type of game better than the 10 who played yesterday.

this is not a popularity contest, you don't
have to 'like' biggar, how many posters actually know the guy. according to ryan jones biggar is first in and last away at training, got off the plane at one match for the ospreys and did 2 hours kicking under floodlights , ok maybe all 10's are like that, i don't know.
but he can play this type of game better than rp.

don't hold your breath biggar, rp will have another chance, and another , and another........

Didn't think I'd see the day that RP gets criticised for trying to put his backs into space. Biggar would have just kicked the ball down field or tried one of his infamous 'aimless drop-goals.' Biggar deserves a chance to start during this series, I would have put him on the bench ahead of Hook and Beck, but RP was definitely the form choice going into the autumn.

Casartelli wrote:

Priestland is a good player (but hopeless punter of a ball) but makes three or four howling errors, every single game, even when he's playing well (missing easy touches from penalties, kicking up and unders that Usain Bolt would struggle to chase down).

You're thinking of RP during the 2012 AI's. He didn't do that yesterday. Though this paragraphs sums up a few 10's IMO. Quade Cooper, James Hook and yes, Dan Biggar. Though Biggar is a lot less prone to error these days, I'd have to see him have a few more runs in a Wales jersey to make a final judgement.

saint, how many games have you seen biggar play? England 6 ns ? he does not 'just kick the ball down field' and he tries drop goals when he thinks they are on. did you see the game at northampton ? biggar was outstanding and even his critics will agree his tactical kicking is way better than rp.

his kick and chase for the ospreys has been pinpoint.
we needed that accuracy and a non error performance yesterday, and we didn't get it. and i stand by my view on rp at the moment, he showed yesterday he's not the player he was, come on, schoolboy stuff on at least 5 occassions.

it would suit our opposition this autumn and in the 6ns if we stick with rp. as i said, don't hold your breath biggar.

Biggar wouldn't have made one drop of difference out there yesterday but he should still have been on the bench at least.

We may not have what people consider a test standard No10 but we do have two players who have been in good form all season and we can only use the players that we have at our disposal but with Biggar for some strange reason Gatland isn't.

JD was a huge blow for us yesterday and the remaining AIs with him and Roberts out it does now show how weak we are in that department.

I like Sc Williams and think he will go from strength to strength but after him who?

As for our chasing game or sorry lack of kicking game that is the easiest thing to coach surely. No10 or XV kicks someone chases it and puts pressure on the opponents, simple really.

Biltong wrote:

Griff wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Question

When did the boks ever lose playing against a side who took them on in a one on one slug match outside of NZ?

England in 03
England in 04
France in 09

It's rare and you need quite a special team to do it. What was Wales strategy... Just beat them?

Even if they had a full strength outfit it wouldn't have mattered.

They were schooled 3 tries to nil is bad. The score line was not a fair reflection.

It's not that Wales are that much worse then SA... But don't play The boks to their strengths, don't get in an arm wrestle because you'll lose.

Fa, you keep saying that and it's obvious. Yes Wales or anyone else shouldn't take on the Boks in an arm wrestle. However, would you tell Argentina or Italy to change the way they play? Probably not. It's just the way they play. The same goes for Wales at the moment.

Let's flip the logic around a bit: SA seem to come unstuck against NZ a lot. You know they're going to run you around, move it away from a slug match. You've discussed it a lot already. So why don't YOU change YOUR game plan? If the answer is that you do not have the players/coaches/playing culture to allow that, then that might be your answer for your Wales question too.

Griff, we did change our game plan, the first test was marred by an unfair red card and at Ellispark they outscored us by five tries to four. Next year will see an improvement.

I perhaps didn't word my argument the best (bad hangover!). But I guess what I'm saying is that there are very few teams who have the ability, depth, etc. to completely change the way they play. NZ definitely, perhaps SA. But Wales are not that good. If we've developed a physical approach that works for us in NH tournaments, it's very hard to then get those players to play the offloading, high tempo running game when we face a team that needs that approach. That's why we're not one of the top teams. We used to play the offloading game but we used to lose by a lot more to the SH teams! We've developed the physical approach to try to match the SH a bit more, perhaps to the detriment of our attacking game. At least this approach has gotten us closer in the last few years. I'm not satisfied with that, but I'm enjoying close games more than the drubbings (not that yesterday was that close really)!

The Saint wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Priestland is a good player (but hopeless punter of a ball) but makes three or four howling errors, every single game, even when he's playing well (missing easy touches from penalties, kicking up and unders that Usain Bolt would struggle to chase down).

You're thinking of RP during the 2012 AI's. He didn't do that yesterday.....................

?????

He did both. He missed an easy touch finder from a penalty and he kicked an up and under way too long into the South African 22, allowing them an easy mark. All 10s make mistakes, but Priestland makes two or three (often a lot more) consistently, with the boot, every time he plays test rugby, usually at crucial stages of the game. Hook was vilified by some, for much less, and he was never given the run of games at 10 that Priestland has had.

Biggar is the obvious safe choice.

On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

Jhamer25 wrote:On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

Two tries from two stupid mistakes? Lets go through the tries shall we . First try was from a winger exploiting a mismatch and bursting through tackles before offloading to his support who also bash through tackles to score ? I see no little mistake here more like a smart Habana and a bruising Bismarck combining with a supporting JDV

Second Try Bok turn down a shot at goal and risk a maul which they control with brutal efficiency leading to a try . Again wheres this little mistake?

Finally a wayward kick is punished by quick thinking from Fourie and hesitancy by the Welsh Cover the only mistake here is the ref not noticing JF was offside

Jhamer25 wrote:On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

I think out of the starting backrow Dan Lydiate has played the most games this season

A question for the welsh fans.
Did the back 3 get decent attacking pass all game?

Referee I thought was great - clear and consistent.

Preistland - No 10 in the world will look good with the rubbish slow ball from Phillips.

Bullsbok wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

Two tries from two stupid mistakes? Lets go through the tries shall we . First try was from a winger exploiting a mismatch and bursting through tackles before offloading to his support who also bash through tackles to score ? I see no little mistake here more like a smart Habana and a bruising Bismarck combining with a supporting JDV

Second Try Bok turn down a shot at goal and risk a maul which they control with brutal efficiency leading to a try . Again wheres this little mistake?

Finally a wayward kick is punished by quick thinking from Fourie and hesitancy by the Welsh Cover the only mistake here is the ref not noticing JF was offside

  Keep going.
Liam Williams missed tackle and had his head in the wrong place you don't do that against a beast like Bismark. Other try was as you said off side and lets jsut say a lucky pass from Fourie  

IronMike wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

I think out of the starting backrow Dan Lydiate has played the most games this season

Really.
I'v been looking at the Racing metro team sheet a lot though and he's hardly ever starting.

Bullsbok wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:On he day the Boks scored more point than us but are we much of a weaker team than them = Hell no
I mean they had 2 tires from 2 stupid little mistakes, end off. They capatilise on their chances which is the only different thing that make them that bit better than us.
Lets not go all doom and gloom because we showed we have a great team yesterday. I mean when John Davies went off my heart sunk, then when Adam went off I gave up; but they stuck in there and it was only down to one lucky try which settled the game.
3 main player for me stood out and that was Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies and when he came on Paul James.
Gethin did more work in the loose than any of our back row last night sorry, an absolute star and showed why he nearly reach those 100 caps
Bradley Davies was our also everywhere and outshone the lions captain in Alyn Wyn. The best performance he has had in the Welsh jersey.
Paul James, i have always been his biggest critic but by god the man came on no really expecting to make an impact but by god he did. I mean i know it was against a weak South African scrum but he gave us a platform and was like a wrecking ball smashing the saffers left right and center.
All around other players dad descent games but I expected a bit more from the likes of Alyn Wyn, North and Mike but im sure they will be back next week.
Sam and Toby played well but Dan's lack of game time showed a bit I think. I have never said a bad word about Dan but he wasn't at his best yesterday. These french moves are a gamble because you don't get as much game time and it affects your game, just look at Gethin Jenkins last season.
Prietland dis still raw at this level and needs to be bled into, Biggar to start with priestland on the bench to come on and try play his way into the game.
Also not saying anything about Rolland because I don't want it to seem like i'm blaming him for our loss (because i'm not) but in some stages of the game he ruined it, the worst ref at this level i have ever seen.
Overall a bounce back expected and even though we lost I feel we can only do better form now this Autumn.

Two tries from two stupid mistakes? Lets go through the tries shall we . First try was from a winger exploiting a mismatch and bursting through tackles before offloading to his support who also bash through tackles to score ? I see no little mistake here more like a smart Habana and a bruising Bismarck combining with a supporting JDV

Second Try Bok turn down a shot at goal and risk a maul which they control with brutal efficiency leading to a try . Again wheres this little mistake?

Finally a wayward kick is punished by quick thinking from Fourie and hesitancy by the Welsh Cover the only mistake here is the ref not noticing JF was offside

Bulls I understand you like anyone else here is a passionate fan for his team, but from a Welsh perspective, the tries could have been easily rectified, albeit easier said than done! Maybe not two stupid mistakes but certainly some slight erros which the Boks capitalised on!

1) try 1, was good work from Habana spotting Hibbard in the backline and North being stuck in two minds due to an injury to scott Williams, Habana then shows good pace and gets it to Bismark who (ok easier said than done!) been tackled, PRIESTLAND then makes it back to get the tackle but JDV has too much pace and power for the cover defence. SA take full advantage of a man down.
2) Good driving Maul, but professional players should know how to stop one so close to their line, again easier said than done when facing 900+kg of Bok
3) A nothing kick, good chase, from offside player, unlucky bounce and moment hesitation, Fourie capitalises on this moment and gets a lucky/skilful offload away which gives an easy try for Du Preez.

Overall not major things, just the bounce of the ball somedays and Wales weren't good enough with their attack/Boks defence very fast for us to score a try.

For me the difference was the speed with which the two teams used the ball. Wales very rarely looked like scoring a try. Everything very ponderous and slow. SA looked more dangerous.

For wales loosing JD2 was a real blow - one player who looked like he could create something. If I was George North I would be very angry. How many decent passes did he get? He did come off his wing looking for ball but even then had short pickings.

Wales will not be able top beat top teams regularly with Phillips - that extra bit of time he takes when you need speed is killing the Wales back line. Caught in possession behind the ruck twice. Wales have some great attacking backs - to watch them kicking all the ball away, never counterattacking and never getting a decent pass really frustrates me

TJ,

Agree with Phillips but the player Gatland sees as 2nd choice behind him (Ll Williams) isn't the answer either.

Lets just hope R Williams get a crack soon. Hell like him or not Rees has been on good form for us Dragons this season and can deliver quick ball.

t3, we don't need rp to 'look good,' we need the basics to be done, find touch, be decisive.

he had a poor game on areas that were nothing to do with anyone else on the welsh team . his execution of kicks and decision making which finished the game for us. (not that we looked like scoring)

biggar may not have made a difference to the score, we'll never know, but my point is that the errors from rp would not have been made.

rp's weaknesses showed up biggars strenghths.

My point i9s not about looking good - its about using your strengths and with a fast strong back three capable of attacking and counter attacking to see them kick every thing away under instruction clearly even if the counter attack was on am to see them never getting a decent p[ass frustrates.

Its clearly Gatlands plan but to me Wales are less than they could be because of this. Use a gameplan that is designed around your best players and produce better Rugby. Wales could have won yesterday - but only by being less cautious and to play with pace. Give George North the ball one on one. allow 1/2p to counter attack

Here is my thoughts on the 10 debate RP should not play for wales again he will never recapture the form of WC2011. Biggar will have to do until either Pratchel or maybe M Morgan come through some will say Morgan is too small but I can remember that being said of a certain Shane Williams. Perhaps he should go to the gym with Halfpenny as he used to be quite small also.

WWosprey wrote:Here is my thoughts on the 10 debate RP should not play for wales again he will never recapture the form of WC2011. Biggar will have to do until either Pratchel or maybe M Morgan come through some will say Morgan is too small but I can remember that being said of a certain Shane Williams. Perhaps he should go to the gym with Halfpenny as he used to be quite small also.

I agree that Biggar should never have been dislodged after his creditable performance in last year's 6N. I also think that Mike Phillip's  slow delivery is making the backs look worse than they are and his positional kicking is rarely effective.

For me Hook was OK at 15, got involved more than usual and presented a bit of threat when we were chasing the game. He was partly culpable for the 3rd try - but not as culpable as Priestland. The mix-up with Toby was unfortunate, though impossible to know who called it or whether both or neither did.

Was it Scott Williams who ran the ball from behind his own line?  That got the pulses racing.

gavstar wrote:saint, how many games have you seen biggar play? England 6 ns ? he does not 'just kick the ball down field' and he tries drop goals when he thinks they are on. did you see the game at northampton ? biggar was outstanding and even his critics will agree his tactical kicking is way better than rp.

his kick and chase for the ospreys has been pinpoint.
we needed that accuracy and a non error performance yesterday, and we didn't get it. and i stand by my view on rp at the moment, he showed yesterday he's not the player he was, come on, schoolboy stuff on at least 5 occassions.

it would suit our opposition this autumn and in the 6ns if we stick with rp. as i said, don't hold your breath biggar.

I've seen almost all of the games he's played in. Whether he thinks a DG is on or not they're poor and aimless. It's because he lacks ideas with the ball in hand and always has done. He is a good tactical kicker but he kicks too much for O's, a lot more than RP. RP plays heads up rugby very well, so outside of him the backs actually see the ball.

Casartelli wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Priestland is a good player (but hopeless punter of a ball) but makes three or four howling errors, every single game, even when he's playing well (missing easy touches from penalties, kicking up and unders that Usain Bolt would struggle to chase down).

You're thinking of RP during the 2012 AI's. He didn't do that yesterday.....................

?????

He did both.  He missed an easy touch finder from a penalty and he kicked an up and under way too long into the South African 22, allowing them an easy mark.  All 10s make mistakes, but Priestland makes two or three (often a lot more) consistently, with the boot, every time he plays test rugby, usually at crucial stages of the game.  Hook was vilified by some, for much less, and he was never given the run of games at 10 that Priestland has had.

Biggar is the obvious safe choice.

Three or four howling errors, after one missed punt. RP is your scapegoat, I get it.

In other news, there's a certain South African legend on Scrum V...who is terminally ill. Sad to see him this way. He was such a legend on the rugby field and one of the best ever in his position.