Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

For the record, I was referring to Hubert, but mysti was the one who latched on. All my comments have been about the game and rugby. These two ruined the thread, if it was me in their position I'm certain I would have got banned, so I'm posting my opinion on the matter for everyone to see. Thanks for reading. G'night.

The Saint wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

The Saint wrote:Oh dear, the usual 'chip on shoulder' comment when somebody has been proved wrong. If you can't comment constructively then p*ss off from the thread, it really is THAT simple... Some people should learn to read.

ok that chip has just got massive   

Oh dear what a child, it's like a 30 year old talking to a 3 year old....

 

Indeed it is - I hope Mysti stops talking to the 3 year-old in question.

Back from the pub and good to see this place as usual after a game is like a childs play ground.

The problem for me being the wrong side of the bridge is I do get a lot of stick but makes it the more sweeter come 6 Nations.

All that aside I was having a good old debate and banter with an English friend and he suggested that the Lions only won because of the additional players backing up the Welsh abd that we wouldn't have won on our own.

Well I just said we will never know etc etc but it did get m to thinking if the team that took to the field in Sydney started today in Cardiff would it have won and would them players have made a difference.

Corbs for Jenkins - Yes Corbs is pure class IMO
Parling for Davies - Yes though I think Davies had a good game today
SOB for Warburton - Not sure as never been a big SOB fan
Sexton for Priestland - Yes, again Sexton in diff league
Bowe for Williams - On paper yes Bowe is again in diff league but our wings hardly touched ball today

Does all that mean we would have won well who knows.

Anyway to change the topic

at least we had two decent games today!

SA didn't really move on from that game v the all blacks though did they?

We were all raving about the fact they took it to NZ and that it was the best match for donkies years. And at the end of the day the perfect game for the neutral, but was it just a case of SA being pushed into it!

Have they taken a step back?

Wales beating a SH team on their own? Yeah right!!

I thought SA policed North very well tonight, the loss of Roberts before the game was a huge blow for Wales.

Hubert Davenport wrote:Wales beating a SH team on their own? Yeah right!!

hubert, that is enough now please.

Biltong wrote:I thought SA policed North very well tonight, the loss of Roberts before the game was a huge blow for Wales.

Bil,

Roberts has been misisng since start wasn't in squad

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway to change the topic

at least we had two decent games today!

SA didn't really move on from that game v the all blacks though did they?

We were all raving about the fact they took it to NZ and that it was the best match for donkies years. And at the end of the day the perfect game for the neutral, but was it just a case of SA being pushed into it!

Have they taken a step back?

we just don't play well end of year. It is highly frustrating as a supporter.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Biltong wrote:I thought SA policed North very well tonight, the loss of Roberts before the game was a huge blow for Wales.

Bil,

Roberts has been misisng since start wasn't in squad

yeah, that's what I meant.

The Saint wrote:For the record, I was referring to Hubert, but mysti was the one who latched on. All my comments have been about the game and rugby. These two ruined the thread, if it was me in their position I'm certain I would have got banned, so I'm posting my opinion on the matter for everyone to see. Thanks for reading. G'night.

dude if you come back and read this. I truly meant no offence and was taken aback how you reacted to what I felt was a very harmless comment. anyway lifes to short  

The thing that annoys me is our body angles and getting isolated so much. Why do we do it? It must be evident every time on video. Is it a macho thing, where we wanted to prove we could live with them physically? It's annoying. Also it cannot be a tactic to chip so much surely? There were a couple of times when Priestland would've been better served passing rather than cross kicks etc.

Bedford,

Davies has been ruled out of the AIs. Adam is currently on crutches.

Time to call Samson Lee up and I think we need a better centre than Beck to come in.

Agree risca, I thought Willem Alberts was brutal tonight.

SA were perfect in there approach to winning the game though.

Wales just wind me up no end, when i know they can do better(final product)

Wether any of that would have made a difference in the result is hear nor there though. SA are rightly no.2 and can mix it up tactically when it matters.

Sadly from a world rugby perspective SA hardly ever need to mix it up to win a game of rugby!!

There is no disputing the lack of presence of J Roberts was a huge blow for Wales, and the policing of North was evident.

Without making excuses and getting in to what if's etc.... but I wonder how SA would have been able to police North, Roberts AND Cuthbert. IMO those 3 could stretch the most able of defences?

Basically everything I said at the beginning of the game.
Risca, I definitely think Lee should come in, who would be the extra prop though? Gill and James covers TH? I'd prefer to see Allen or O.Williams promoted over Beck. Williams to keep his 12 jersey and Biggar to come onto the bench. Looks like we will need Hook to also stay on the bench covering every position in the backline.

“He is very disappointed. We’ve spoken to the physio and he said it could settle by the back end of December, but of he needs an operation it could be five months and mean he misses the Six Nations as well.”

About JD2 by Cement Head.

RDSguru, it would have mad a big difference definitely, the sad reality is teams struggle to get their first fifteen into a test on a regular basis

Biltong wrote:Agree risca, I thought Willem Alberts was brutal tonight.

Both guys wearing 7 put decent shifts in really. Alberts is some tough frigger though.

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway to change the topic

at least we had two decent games today!

SA didn't really move on from that game v the all blacks though did they?

We were all raving about the fact they took it to NZ and that it was the best match for donkies years. And at the end of the day the perfect game for the neutral, but was it just a case of SA being pushed into it!

Have they taken a step back?

Ja, it certainly seemed as if the Boks weren't at full steam.  I don't know whether that came from the Boks-side: fatigue, complacency, etc, or whether it was a symptom of Wales doing a good job of dictating the terms of the match for long periods of time (however, they couldn't make anything of it...)

Crucial moments of the match from the Welsh side, were: Davies going off- he looked to be doing a good job of finding the gap between Fourie and JDvilliers; and Adam Jones going off (although the scrums were such a shambles I'm not sure if any side would've been able to gain ascendency there!)

From the Boks side: when Morne Steyn left, the bok attacking play looked a bit disjointed....

And finally, some officiating points: The double yellow card was one of the most bizarre things I've seen all year (I was wondering what would've happened if Coenie had been given another yellow card later in the game....). And the Francois Louw Yellow Card: while the card was quite within the parameters of the law and hence the technically correct call (and so Louw was a fool to do what he did in these days of TMO intervention), does anyone else feel it was a bit soft? A yellow for some pushing and shoving!....

Risca Rev wrote: There were a couple of times when Priestland would've been better served passing rather than cross kicks etc.

Don't want to get on my Ospreys horse (high or not), but I have to agree....

PS I'm not high! And if the Horse is.. well I didn't do it

Biltong wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway to change the topic

at least we had two decent games today!

SA didn't really move on from that game v the all blacks though did they?

We were all raving about the fact they took it to NZ and that it was the best match for donkies years. And at the end of the day the perfect game for the neutral, but was it just a case of SA being pushed into it!

Have they taken a step back?

we just don't play well end of year. It is highly frustrating as a supporter.

I wouldn't worry too much BB. Neither of us is too fond of our team's performances but you have to concede the opposition brought out that performance and you still found a way to win. I think SA controlled their lead much better than NZ. Winning at this time of year is the key.

Biltong wrote:RDSguru, it would have mad a big difference definitely, the sad reality is teams struggle to get their first fifteen into a test on a regular basis

I do realise that... our strength in depth is a pretty recent devolopment..... but still not really there, yet.

Risca Rev wrote:Bedford,

Davies has been ruled out of the AIs. Adam is currently on crutches.

Time to call Samson Lee up and I think we need a better centre than Beck to come in.

Oh Bo****ks, though did fear the worst when you seen him on tv he knew it was bad injury.

Who else is there, Williams keeps his place is it worth giving North a crack there next week as we know Gats likes a bosher in the centre. Beck has never done it for me and Hook and Williams to lightweight.

Surely Lee has to come in as well now with Jones carrying a knock would also call up someone like J Williams, Dan Evans or Prydie.

I would go something like this against the Pumas:

James Hibbard Lee
Evans (if fit) Charteris
Warburton Faletau Tipuric

R Williams (anyone bar Ll Williams)
Biggar

Li Williams (if fit)
North
Sc Williams
Halfpenny

Hook (I know but who else really if Halfpenny and Williams on wings)

Hi guys. I thought Wales were soooo predictable. Kick the ball away and rely on crash ball which didn't work although jd2 his best. Same old same old...

Biltong wrote:RDSguru, it would have mad a big difference definitely, the sad reality is teams struggle to get their first fifteen into a test on a regular basis

I thought we did well to compete for the full 80 despite the early losses of key players, sadly this is Rugby and we just have to accept that it happens, same thing happened last year vs the All Blacks. I don't think Beck and Williams have ever played together in the centre. Its clear now that Wales need to develop depth there, fullback and at tighthead.

Bread,

Don't get me started on out kicking game, its always said a kick is only as good as the chase and we don't feckin chase FFS.

If the coaches want to learn how to kick chase then todays opponents are one of the best at it Pietersen is class at that element of the game.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Biltong wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway to change the topic

at least we had two decent games today!

SA didn't really move on from that game v the all blacks though did they?

We were all raving about the fact they took it to NZ and that it was the best match for donkies years. And at the end of the day the perfect game for the neutral, but was it just a case of SA being pushed into it!

Have they taken a step back?

we just don't play well end of year. It is highly frustrating as a supporter.

I wouldn't worry too much BB. Neither of us is too fond of our team's performances but you have to concede the opposition brought out that performance and you still found a way to win. I think SA controlled their lead much better than NZ. Winning at this time of year is the key.

Not sure I agree with that. Up to the stage where SA got their match winning try (Officials, RP and HP's issues aside) I thought Wales were on the up..... Thats not to say SA wouldn't have won anyway, but not sure that was in SA's Control

Breadvan wrote:Hi guys. I thought Wales were soooo predictable. Kick the ball away and rely on crash ball which didn't work although jd2 his best. Same old same old...

I agree.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Bread,

Don't get me started on out kicking game, its always said a kick is only as good as the chase and we don't feckin chase FFS.

If the coaches want to learn how to kick chase then todays opponents are one of the best at it Pietersen is class at that element of the game.

And so can be said for Line Breaks.... have to point the fingers at players here.. sad as at sounds, the players made these mistakes. Its not a coaching issue.

That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Having start my playing career as a wing you were taught from the off to chase everything that's one of the basic elements.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Back from the pub and good to see this place as usual after a game is like a childs play ground.

The problem for me being the wrong side of the bridge is I do get a lot of stick but makes it the more sweeter come 6 Nations.

All that aside I was having a good old debate and banter with an English friend and he suggested that the Lions only won because of the additional players backing up the Welsh abd that we wouldn't have won on our own.

Well I just said we will never know etc etc but it did get m to thinking if the team that took to the field in Sydney started today in Cardiff would it have won and would them players have made a difference.

Corbs for Jenkins - Yes Corbs is pure class IMO
Parling for Davies - Yes though I think Davies had a good game today
SOB for Warburton - Not sure as never been a big SOB fan
Sexton for Priestland - Yes, again Sexton in diff league
Bowe for Williams - On paper yes Bowe is again in diff league but our wings hardly touched ball today

Does all that mean we would have won well who knows.

sexton alone would gave gotten wales the win today. his kicking is at least on a par with the Saffers and kiwis. would have made a gigantic difference.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Well I'd argue the lead built was washed away, bar 2 points... the lead handed to them was, yes, protected, and protected well :-)

RDSguru wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Well I'd argue the lead built was washed away, bar 2 points... the lead handed to them was, yes, protected, and protected well :-)

No one hands you a lead , you take it . Boks took their 3 chances and took them well

Bullsbok wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wales should be beating tge likes of SA in Cardiff. Thats the bottom line. I know SA are very good but so are Wales.

Missed opportunity.

What excatly do you base that on ? Their recent victories against SA , AUZ and the NZ ? Or their demolition of England ?

Im basing it on the quality of players Wales have plus they're at home. Last 4/5 games v SA Wales have lost by less than a score or there abouts. Im convinced they are good enough to beat them they just arent going about it the right way.

SA had 33% possession and dominated the match. what does that tell you? they kicked tactically far better than wales, and isolated and turned over welsh attackers in not particularly threatening parts of the pitch. and wales kicked horrendously. i said before the game that wales have a glaring glaring weakness at 10 and its true. Sa and NZ use the high kick as an offensive tool, followed by supporters who roll the momentum over the catch (if he even catches it). but that does rely on the kick not being too long. and Wales were rubbish here.

Congratulations on another heroic defeat Wales. If only you didn't measuring winning by scoring more points than the opposition.

Hubert Davenport wrote:Congratulations on another heroic defeat Wales.  If only you didn't measuring winning by scoring more points than the opposition.

Whats your beef with Wales HD? It must be mighty frustrating for Wales fans having lost 5 v SA on the trot by less than a score and something similar v Aus. Why rub it in?

Bullsbok wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Well I'd argue the lead built was washed away, bar 2 points... the lead handed to them was, yes, protected, and protected well :-)

No one hands you a lead , you take it . Boks took their 3 chances and took them well

Won't argue that the boks took what was on offer (i.e. taking their chances), whether it was handed or not is a different matter .

My point is that it was not necessarily their control that produced that chance to defend a lead they found they had at that point in the game.

GunsGerms wrote:

Hubert Davenport wrote:Congratulations on another heroic defeat Wales.  If only you didn't measuring winning by scoring more points than the opposition.

Whats your beef with Wales HD? It must be mighty frustrating for Wales fans having lost 5 v SA on the trot by less than a score and something similar v Aus. Why rub it in?

Don't worry GunsGerms, the defeat in itself hurts way more than any salt being rubbed in by anyone. No matter who or why.  

Id say it does. Im starting to feel your pain. Wales are due a big win v one of these teams.

We were gash yet again. No doubt. Not physical enough to roll with the big boys. I've poster ad nauseum about how Wales are good at competing with the 6N, but we cannot, whatsoever, physically compete with SA and NZ. It is simply embarrassing to be talked up in the way that we are. It's a mixture of media hype and fan frenzy, if the two are different?!

I was talking to mates before the game and said that we'd lose a few players to injury during this game. Nothing to do with malicious play - more to do with our softness. And there it was. Injury straight off, what was it - 20 minutes? Injury to 3 first choice boys. No coincidence. It happens every autumn. Whether Samoa, South Africa, New Zealand, Argentina, whoever: the outcome is the same - injury to key players just because we're soft. It can't be bad luck. It can't be foul play all the time. The reason is always the same, because we're not conditioned to their physicality. We're f@cking weak. We have been forever. We paper over it always. We blame refereeing, or bad luck or foul play, or rustiness, or different styles, or the other teams' thuggery culture, but the reason SA won today was because, as always, they steamrollered us. Physically they shafted us. Men v boys.

So how do you do it against England then?

bedford i was at the game you said Lydiate was quiet maybe but when Lydiate went off Wales defence went to pieces the call has to be do they go with Warbs or Tips that was the point of discussion after the game of the fans that was there and most thought Tips

RDSguru wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's true to that point. Wales started the second half the better team but it always seems to be the second quarter where they're unable to score points. SA scored the try which broke the run of play but thereafter they controlled the game. They built the lead and they protected it.

Well I'd argue the lead built was washed away, bar 2 points... the lead handed to them was, yes, protected, and protected well :-)

No one hands you a lead , you take it . Boks took their 3 chances and took them well

Won't argue that the boks took what was on offer (i.e. taking their chances), whether it was handed or not is a different matter .

My point is that it was not necessarily their control that produced that chance to defend a lead they found they had at that point in the game.

RDSguru, admittedly Fourie was a smdgeon in front of de Preez on the kick, but by the same token, Wales got a penalty when Haana tracked back that was BLATANTLY a penalty to SA not Wales.

When Halfpenny was lying all over Habana as the tackler pleading for a penalty he got it.

So those three points were extrememely fortuitous.

quinsforever wrote:SA had 33% possession and dominated the match. what does that tell you? they kicked tactically far better than wales, and isolated and turned over welsh attackers in not particularly threatening parts of the pitch. and wales kicked horrendously. i said before the game that wales have a glaring glaring weakness at 10 and its true. Sa and NZ use the high kick as an offensive tool, followed by supporters who roll the momentum over the catch (if he even catches it). but that does rely on the kick not being too long. and Wales were rubbish here.

Surprised people have not made more of the very poor performance of our halfbacks.   Mike, I think, is done. His slow service meant the 3/4s were getting the ball under pressure in our own 22, meaning several times we had to run it out of trouble with the Boks in our faces. In attack he slowed down the ball so the Bok defence had time to reset and the linebreaks were wasted. Fourie du Preez showed him up completely. Lloyd Williams is unpopular here for some reason, but there was notable improvement in the few seconds he came on.

Priestland was not as disastrous as he can be - and had to cope with some slow ball -  but like Phillips he did some awful tactical kicking which allowed the Bok back 3 to attack at speed. He also missed touch with a penalty - how can that happen at this level! And he was to blame for the last try  as he was like a rabbit in the headlights watching the ball and hoping like hell it would bounce out of play. It didn't.

Next match - Biggar in, RP out of the 23. Phillips to bench or out of 23.

mystiroakey wrote:So how do you do it against England then?

England aren't as good as SA (in my opinion) so it's easier. The same reason as we're able to beat Italy fairly regularly.

Wales had the majority of possession but didn't have a clue what to do with it. Contray to belief Wales do NOT play attractive rugby. For years they have relied on the kick chase to win games. They kick an inordiate amount of ball away. Gat ball just does not work against the southern hemosphere. Add to that a weak 9 and 10 axis and I honestly think that Wales will struggle against the argies next week. This Wales team is over rated and the rankings do not lie. In the last 10 games Wales have LOST 6 and won 4. That my friend is not a sign of a strong team.