Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Swansea 3-2 Stoke

What has happened to Stoke's defence

[mystiroakey]

We got you next Olly.

Big game for us that one.

Pray for us to beat you- that will certainly be the final straw

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yeah we may be bad but we ain't so bad we'll lose to palace

If we did I fear for my liver

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The dissenters are beginning to rear their ugly heads at West Ham. Allardyce is losing some of them, but the big games are the next two. No wins from Fulham and Palace and then the pressure could get to him

[The Fourth Lion]

The dissenters are beginning to rear their ugly heads at West Ham. Allardyce is losing some of them, but the big games are the next two. No wins from Fulham and Palace and then the pressure could get to him

I'm surprised it has taken this long.

I suppose Allardyce won most of the younger fans over with the results that he achieved in his early days at Upton Park, but I get the feeling that the older fans, who grew up watching the teams produced by Ron Greenwood and John Lyall remember 'classic' West Ham football and have been waiting their moment to use poor results as a stick to beat Allardyce with.

I have no gripe with Sam Allardyce as a person.  He was a good old fashioned English centre half in his playing days.  When Peter Kay did that John Smiths advert, where he put a stop to a game of keepy-uppy by booting the ball over nearby rooftops, with a grunt of " 'ave it", the first player that came to my  mind was Sam Allardyce.   I'm not doing the bloke a disservice.  He was highly thought of as a player at Bolton and served them well for many years.

But fairly or otherwise, this image of him as having a "Boot the bloody thing out of the ground" attitude to football follows him around, and it just doesn't square with what the purists at Upton Park want to see.  David Sullivan may have made his money as an East End porno merchant, but he has his finger on the pulse as to what Hammers fans want in their more 'vertical entertainment'  (tongue in cheek), too. He may be already casting an eye around for possible replacements.

I hope results turn around for Sam's sake, and soon.

[socal1976]

Great derby match LFC v. Everton so far he best match I have seen this season, both teams could have scored even more. Mignolet in particular made a number of tough saves. Don't see how people want Rodgers sacked he has done a fine job this season people thought they would be a sixth or seventh place side and are sitting second.

Arsenal looking impressive defensively with just 1 goal given up in the last 360 minutes and that against some pretty impressive forwards. Scez has quietly become one of the best keepers in the division. Giroud did it today with sheer work ethic, he chased a lost cause and that combined with the goalie having a brain fart resulted in the winning goal. I know a lot of people don't give Giroud credit for much but he battles out there and wins so many knockdowns for other players and again today was crucial in clearing and defending set pieces as well. A very hardworking and complete forward that contributes whether he scores or not. Now lets hope for City and Tottenham to draw and this will be another nice weekend for the gunners.

[mystiroakey]

Nice to see they report the PL quicker than international games out there in sunny California!

It was a top game..

[Ent]

Was a shocking game for the purist but it's why we love the pl.

Terrible defending all round.

[mystiroakey]

I take it you just mean football in general, the pl is greatest all round defensive league out there

[mystiroakey]

Great efforts by Wilshire and Ramsey in the Arsenal highlights

[Guest]

Was a shocking game for the purist but it's why we love the pl.

Terrible defending all round.

T'was very gung ho but very entertaining nonetheless.

[Ent]

Dunno about that mysti, generally a lot of shocking displays available for all to see!

[mystiroakey]

yes in every league in the world

[Ent]

Care to change your mind after seeing west hams display

Absolutely shocking.

[mystiroakey]

well that goal keeping I just saw by Southampton was pretty shocking

[socal1976]

Nice to see they report the PL quicker than international games out there in sunny California!

It was a top game..

Lol! my bad spent 24 hours on planes and in airports and a day in bed after the jet lag and the booze at the lounge and in the plane, lets say I had a few days were time and the events of the day were bit mixed up.

[mystiroakey]

We have all been there Socal

[MIG]

Hughes is an idiot though, nothing new there.

What's more important is that we're 8th on 20 points, above City & on a roll. No Europa league to distract us & Pardew finally understands we can't have passengers in the team. City spend £90m, Spurs spend £100m & we spent £2m maybe on a loan deal for Loic! Got to love it!

How much did you spend the window before? No dig just curious. A lot of players came in but don't know about the finances.

[mystiroakey]

Was that Barcelona i just saw playing against hull......

[mystiroakey]

But wtf did Bolaise do wrong!!

[mystiroakey]

The reffing has gone to pot

[Guest]

Hughes is an idiot though, nothing new there.

What's more important is that we're 8th on 20 points, above City & on a roll. No Europa league to distract us & Pardew finally understands we can't have passengers in the team. City spend £90m, Spurs spend £100m & we spent £2m maybe on a loan deal for Loic! Got to love it!

How much did you spend the window before? No dig just curious. A lot of players came in but don't know about the finances.

yeah about 15m off the top of my head. anita, gouffran, sissoko, haidara etc

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I see it was Kevin Friend who made the Wes Brown red card decision today.

Again standing out as a beacon of hopelessness in a sea of mediocrity

[MIG]

That's pretty good business then for the amount of players

[Ent]

That brown red card is a shocking decision, I was expecting to see a other tackle after that one on motd. Madness.

[Fernando]

Did he even touch him?  

[MIG]

That ref will be demoted for that and the red card will be taken back. If not then its just crazy

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The dissenters are beginning to rear their ugly heads at West Ham. Allardyce is losing some of them, but the big games are the next two. No wins from Fulham and Palace and then the pressure could get to him

I'm surprised it has taken this long.

I suppose Allardyce won most of the younger fans over with the results that he achieved in
his early days at Upton Park, but I get the feeling that the older fans, who grew up watching the teams produced by Ron Greenwood and John Lyall remember 'classic' West Ham football and have been waiting their moment to use poor results as a stick to beat Allardyce with.

I have no gripe with Sam Allardyce as a person.  He was a good old fashioned English centre half in his playing days.  When Peter Kay did that John Smiths advert, where he put a stop to a game of keepy-uppy by booting the ball over nearby rooftops, with a grunt of " 'ave it", the first player that came to my  mind was Sam Allardyce.   I'm not doing the bloke a disservice.  He was highly thought of as a player at Bolton and served them well for many years.

But fairly or otherwise, this image of him as having a "Boot the bloody thing out of the ground" attitude to football follows him around, and it just doesn't square with what the purists at Upton Park want to see.  David Sullivan may have made his money as an East End porno merchant, but he has his finger on the pulse as to what Hammers fans want in their more 'vertical entertainment'  (tongue in cheek), too.  He may be already casting an eye around for possible replacements.

I hope results turn around for Sam's sake, and soon.

I wouldn't say the football is awful. We play good stuff when we're on form, but we're not playing good anything at the mo, long or short. The stereotype of his career has always left some of the old guard scratching their heads, but the fans I know have their heads on generally think he's done well. The summer dealings are the problem, for which he and the Daves should take blame.

Nolan is the biggest target for dissent, and it's a debate that rages on. I think we're in for a fight, which doesn't bother me too much cos it's second season back, but the performances being so poor and toothless lately are the cause of annoyance.

Time will tell, but money has to be spent in January for short and long term prospects. You can't have just one striker in a squad that the manager trusts. When you do and injury hits, well it's a recipe for disaster

[The Fourth Lion]

That ref will be demoted for that and the red card will be taken back. If not then its just crazy

Why would the referee be demoted for doing his job properly..?  

OK... I'm going to be a Laws Bore now (forgive me), but sometimes it's necessary to help the group understand why these decisions are made.

As we all know, football has Laws of the Game and Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct) is pretty much the final word on what constitutes a red card offence.  But laws are one thing.  How they are interpreted is another.  Grey areas occur and there has to be a way of covering them.  You can't legislate for everything that may happen in a game, but that was what managers stamped their feet and demanded.

There was a time when the laws of football were flexible and allowed for referees discretion but that led to pundits, managers and players whining about "inconsistency".   If only referees had guidelines so that they would all do the same thing in any given situation, then the players would know where they stood.  

Poor darlings.

Yes, there was a time when referees, being allowed to interpret for themselves what was actually happening on the field, were able to judge the situation using their own powers of reasoning, and come to rational, sensible decisions.   The trouble with that is that, human nature being what it is, different individuals analysed similar situations in different ways, made different calls, and that is why there were inconsistencies.

So, FIFA, with a huge sigh of resignation, issued definitive interpretations of the laws of the game which they called.... er.... "Interpretations of the Laws of the Game" and bound referees to them hand and foot.  They were a response to what pundits, players and managers had banged on about almost ceaselessly for many years, and they were intended to reduce as much as possible the inconsistencies that occurred when refs had discretion, or what we used to call "Common Sense".  

Now... with regard to citizen Brown and the referee's alleged "howler" yesterday.  I haven't seen the incident but from what I gather, Brown was sent off for allegedly playing in a dangerous and reckless manner.  If that was the case, then there are two factors in the guidelines which I believe would be relevant here:

"Playing in a Dangerous Manner" is interpreted as:   as any action that, while trying to play the ball, threatens injury to someone (including the player himself). It is committed with an opponent nearby and prevents the opponent from playing the ball for fear of injury.  

It goes on to further say:   Playing in a dangerous manner involves no physical contact between the
players.  

Now, "Careless, Reckless, Using Excessive Force" is interpreted as:  “Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.
• A player who uses excessive force must be sent off  

So.....  if Brown appears to the referee to have done both of those things, regardless of whether any actual physical contact was made, then he was fully justified in brandishing carte rouge.  Indeed, not to have done so might have gotten him into trouble.  If the referees assessor, sitting in the stands had seen the incident and the referee took no action, then he may report to the FA that the ref isn't doing his job properly, and THEN he could face disciplinary action which could lead to demotion.

Funny old game, isn't it..?

After the match, the referee will have filed a report on the incident, and as long as the wording of that report shows that he acted in accordance with the laws of the game and their interpretations, then even if video evidence shows that what he saw was incorrect, then his actions will be considered acceptable.   Yes... true..!!   The FA will not discipline a referee for getting the facts of a situation wrong, because it is recognised that an official gets only one look at a situation, in real time, and has to act according to (this is the crucial bit) what he believes he saw.  If he then takes action according to the laws of the game and the interpretations, he is fireproof.

The FA applies a simple rule of thumb:   A mistake in fact is acceptable.  A mistake in law is not.

Wes Brown has the option of making an appeal.  The video evidence may indeed show that no contact was made with an opponent, but given the interpretations of the laws, the FA may still decide in favour of the referee's actions.  Alternatively, they may exonerate Brown, but still not take any action against the referee simply because the official followed the guidelines in accordance with what he believes he saw, as stated in his report.

My advice to fans, regarding referees calls, is to think along the lines of the rule of thumb mentioned above.   The referee may get the facts of the matter wrong, but the FA won't punish him for it because if they did that every time a ref made an incorrect call, there would be no referees left by the end of the week..!!   As long as they follow the Laws and guidelines they'll be OK. That's how it works, folks.

We nowadays hear pundits, players and managers squinnying  about how "refs should apply common sense to the game".  Well, they used to do that very thing, and those very same people dripped about inconsistency.  They wanted hard and fast rules, made a song and dance about putting guidelines in place and FIFA gave them what they wanted.

In life, you shouldn't always wish too hard for something, because sometimes you end up getting what you wished for.

[mystiroakey]

4th lion.

Yes we need to understand that the refs are just doing a job and on the whole doing a pretty good one. Its just that they have such a hard job(magnified today due to video replays, HD pictures and social media)

But that doesn't mean anyone should accept it.

We need to strive for better refereeing. The more injustice is highlighted the more chance we have of giving refs the help they need and moving along with other sports like rugby,cricket and tennis and developing more ingenious ways to aid the refs(technology)

[Ent]

Why did you waste your time with that long post not having seen the incident?

[Guest]

 

[guildfordbat]

Arsenal looking impressive defensively with just 1 goal given up in the last 360 minutes and that against some pretty impressive forwards. Scez has quietly become one of the best keepers in the division. Giroud did it today with sheer work ethic, he chased a lost cause and that combined with the goalie having a brain fart resulted in the winning goal. I know a lot of people don't give Giroud credit for much but he battles out there and wins so many knockdowns for other players and again today was crucial in clearing and defending set pieces as well. A very hardworking and complete forward that contributes whether he scores or not. Now lets hope for City and Tottenham to draw and this will be another nice weekend for the gunners.

Very much with Socal here. Yes, Boruc was dreadfully at fault. However, Giroud, who often seems to get a harsh press here, deserves a lot of credit for hassling and harrying the keeper. Very good forward play which should be recognised along with his opponent's howler.

[JamesLincs]

how many top strikers though rely on mistakes by goalkeepers and penalties, to score?

[The Fourth Lion]

Why did you waste your time with that long post not having seen the incident?

Because the person to whom I responded seemed to think that the incident should lead to the referee concerned being 'demoted'.  

There is a sort of myth in football that referees are accountable to fans, players, managers, TV pundits, uncle Tom Cobbley and all.  

They aren't.

Referees are accountable to the FA and I was attempting to explain that they are, in some ways, hostages to the laws of the game and the interpretation of those laws, the formalisation of which was brought about by FIFA giving in to prolonged pressure to produce attempted "definitive" interpretations.

I didn't need to see the incident to respond to the poster.  It was clear that he did not know of the interpretations of the laws which meant the referee not only acted in, what the FA would say is, an appropriate way, but would probably back him up if Wes Brown decides to appeal against the red card.

We often see messages complaining that the FA is 'out of touch' when it supports officials in controversial decisions, but in reality they are acting entirely consistently with the laws and interpretations handed to them by FIFA and within which they must work.

I don't wish to sound harsh, but the problem doesn't lie with the FA or the referees.  It is with those who get outraged and sound off where, if they were better informed, they would realise what is the real issue here.  

Referees are not allowed to use their discretion.  They are tied to these interpretations of the laws that everybody shouted long and loud to have.  

So..... when 'controversial' incidents arise,  who is really to blame for the root cause of that..?



PS.... I have now seen the incident on TV and think that Wes Brown was harshly treated but, on reading the referee's report, the FA would probably rescind the card on appeal, and take no action against the official.

[guildfordbat]

how many top strikers though rely on mistakes by goalkeepers and penalties, to score?

James - I would just emphasise the old football expression, 'Great goalscorers don't score great goals'.

Greaves, Muller and Lineker are amongst the greatest goalscorers and top strikers I've seen in my time even though few of their goals stand out. I'm not putting Giroud in their bracket but I think each one of them would have appreciated Giroud's part in yesterday's 'blunder' goal.

[The Fourth Lion]

how many top strikers though rely on mistakes by goalkeepers and penalties, to score?

James - I would just emphasise the old football expression, 'Great goalscorers don't score great goals'.

Greaves, Muller and Lineker are amongst the greatest goalscorers and top strikers I've seen in my time even though few of their goals stand out. I'm not putting Giroud in their bracket but I think each one of them would have appreciated Giroud's part in yesterday's 'blunder' goal.

Quite agree, Guildford. Giroud showed a good striker's instinct by chasing down the goalkeeper and pressuring him into a mistake. The players you mentioned would all applaud Giroud for that. Indeed, Greaves was always snapping away at goalkeepers and many was the goalie who ended a game with a hunted, 'rabbit-caught-in-the-headlights' glaze to his eyes after having Greavsie after him for 90 minutes. He was the best of the lot.

I must confess though, that as a Pompey man, I do have a quiet smile when I see a Southampton goalkeeper getting beaten by a downfield hoof by his opposite number in the game against Stoke, and then two weeks later, being pressured into blind panic and conceding a howler.

I know it isn't big or clever, but there's a part of me that's eagerly awaiting the next instalment.

[Ent]

Yes but you haven't seen the incident - so you don't know if the referee has applied the interpretation of the right law handed out by FIFA. Clue - he hasn't, wasn't even a foul.

I really don't see anyone complaining about common sense etc, the opposite really (see Fer's goal recently), people want consistency - this is not obtained by addenums and interpretations, this makes it worse e.g. When the modernised the offside rule in early 2000's.

FIFA hand out these interpretations etc to change or clarify the rules without changing the core rules of football. These can arise for many reasons and there is an update every season for referees at all levels. This is why you see so many fads happening e.g. Peaks in bookings for dissent or not retreating quickly enough the season after these updates/reminders.

I'm not trying to diminish your position, the rules of the game are a real pain and the more complex they get the more difficult it is for associations and referees to run leagues and games. But in reality the facts are that these interpretations make things less consistent and it is hard to take your points to heart when you are basing your point on an incident your haven't seen and in fact are relating to other people's opinion and interpretation of the matter.

[NickisBHAFC]

Man City 1-0 Tottenham after 30 seconds

Going to be a long afternoon for AVB.

[NickisBHAFC]

Aguero should of put City 2 up, great save by Lloris.

[Guest]

atoned for his previous error somewhat

[NickisBHAFC]

2-0 City. Sloppy again from Tottenham

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

AVB is overrated...

[LastDamnation]

Spurs have completely lost their heads here

[Guest]

Spurs r a mess. AVB doesn't have any game plan that the players believe in. Clueless. No wonder we beat them. AVB under pressure now, desperation in telling calling adebayor back from the reserves. Reckon AV B is eyeing up another pay off.

[NickisBHAFC]

Adebayor coming on, if i was a Tottenham fan i would start to make my trip back to London, or at least make a move to a pub.

[Guest]

Wasn't he in dialogue with PSG pre season? Wouldn't trust him to build a squad and hang around myself. He's spent badly by the looks of things too.

They're not a patch on the Spurs side of 08-11.

[NickisBHAFC]

Lamela waste of money. Soldado waste of money. Load of other players to. 

Man City 4-0 Tottenham. Aguero.

[Guest]

Aguero - Class. Game Over. AVB under big pressure. Can't see him sticking around at the Lane long term. Soldado hates this system!

AVB wanted PSG job

[mystiroakey]

Man City have scored 24 goals to 2 in 6 home games..

Unbelievable

[NickisBHAFC]

Man City 5-0 Tottenham. Tottenham may lose more than Norwich.

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