2013 606v2 Top 15 Pound for Pound Rankings (please submit VOTES)

by All Time Great Wed 27 Nov 2013, 3:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

It’s time to vote for the 606V2 POUND FOR POUND Top 15 rankings (Q4 2013).

Rules:
-Only 1 post per 606 member.
-Only active fighters allowed (must of fought in the last 18 months unless officially retired)
-Outlandish listings will be DQ.
-A fighter needs two individual votes to have his points included.

Principles:
Your Top 15 should be based as at the current point in time.

Point Scoring System:
Quite simple, #1 scores 15 points, #2 scores 14 points etc… I will tally up the totals by the deadline date and will present the results.

NOTE: PLEASE TRY AND USE FULL NAMES (or correct surnames) & LIST your results.

For reference only, the previous Top 15 606v2 P4P rankings as at 09th April 2013 was:

1 Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2 Andre Ward
3 Nonito Donaire
4 Juan Manuel Marquez
5 Sergio Martinez
6 Wladimir Klitschko
7 Manny Pacquiao
8 Timothy Bradley
9 Carl Froch
10 Adrian Broner
11 Abner Mares
12 Robert Guerrero
13 Yuriorkis Gamboa
14 Saul Alvarez
15 Chad Dawson

16 Austin Trout
17 Vitali Klitschko
18 Bernard Hopkins
19 Gennady Golovkin
20 Guillermo Rigondeaux
21 Danny Garcia
22 Mikkel Kessler
23 Brian Viloria
24 Ricky Burns
25 Gary Russell Jr
26 Mikkel Kessler

by kingraf Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:10 pm

Out of pure interest, and nothing more - how did you have the guy who landed less punches, had a broken nose, and a concussion winning the fight? The fact that Pacquaio landed more (at a higher percentage, too) shows he was landing more. The fact that Marquez had a concussion and a broken nose shows that Pac was landing the more telling blows. I can only imagine you had Marquez ahead because you had already decided Marquez gives Pac fits, and scored the fight as such... I mean Pac landed at nearly 40%, while Marquez landed at 20%.... Of course it's all irrelevant, but I'm quite interested to hear how you thought the guy landing with half the success was winning.

by kingraf Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:15 pm

Ignore that last post, TH. Just caught that you were referring to Pac-Marquez III. It was too late to stop the post when it dawned on me (Damn LTE).

But on that note I'd be quite interested to hear how most here score fights, it's not an exact science, therefore I use compubox when I'm done scoring to see what was happening in terms of raw data. It isn't perfect, but I can't see how it's any worse than "I scored it X, and I don't care if the stats show he only landed one punch per round... it was a Mega punch!!"

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:26 pm

I tend to ignore compubox altogether, it doesn't really have any benefit to scoring.

by kingraf Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:31 pm

It generally doesn't, as even if correct it can't measure how big a punch is. But it can add a different viewpoint, even if only to dispel who was the busier fighter, or who was really working the jab. Stats have a place in all sport, and boxing is no different.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:43 pm

I don't see it myself, stats aren't a lazy way to judge a fight, the busier fighter can only be seen it can't be told to you. The volume of punches is dependent on how heavy the shots thrown were, it also doesn't give an indication to how a fighter was defending whether it be running or evasion.

by kingraf Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:53 pm

You see - that's why asked. I don't particularly think either of us is wrong, But it could see us judge a round very differently.

by Lance Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:48 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why is Wlad as high as 4 and Mayweather 2nd ???..Don't see on Current form why he is so high on your list ??

and If it isn't current form.........Then Mayweather has to be above Ward !!

Id say Wlad just beat the second best current heavyweight, or third if Vitali is still counted as active. Povetkin was the last credible challenge to Wlad, and also undefeated. so I would say Wlad is on top form.

was a tough one between Mayweather and Ward, I wouldn't be convinced by own argument whichever way round I put them. But as things are now id pick ward to beat mayweather if they were the same size. ward has also beaten better opposition the last 3 years.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:57 pm

Mayweather beat two Top 10 pound for pounders in his last two fights.........

Wlad beats a slob and goes 4th and Ward goes first.....Beating a seven pound down in weight Dawson....

by Lance Wed 27 Nov 2013, 9:03 pm

wlad is irrelevant to the argument. I don't see who can be above him. I have Bradley above, rigo has one good victory, I already have Garcia higher than anybody else does. marquez, pac, Hopkins, donaire have all suffered bad defeats, Martinez should have done.

mayweather is miles above wlad. im not knocking mayweather, I said all along that alvarez was quality and I have never tried to take anything away from his great win there. I just think ward has had an exceptional three years. and at his age and peak condition he is above flloyd.

cotto top ten? not top twenty for me. not even close

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 27 Nov 2013, 9:10 pm

So you are rating on talent ???

Might as well have Broner top 5........

by Champagne_Socialist Wed 27 Nov 2013, 11:21 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??

Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 28 Nov 2013, 8:23 am

I think you're getting Oscar Leon confused with Oscar De La Hoya because the former wasn't P4P ranked ever.

by Boxtthis Thu 28 Nov 2013, 8:52 am

Champagne_Socialist wrote:won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list)..

This Oscar Leon?

.....and the robbery over JMM?

Plus a bunch of draws against not great fighters.

He might be hovering around the 15 mark on longevity alone, but not much higher, and certainly justifiably lower.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Thu 28 Nov 2013, 9:01 am

This myth that Marquez was robbed against Chris John again. Have you even watched that fight or is that just a statement because you have heard other try to spout that nonsense.

Marquez lost that fight and deservedly so. He got frustrated at the end and began to cheat. Cant remember how many points he had docked.

There is a reason you never hear about the John v Marquez fight that much in terms of robberies......because it wasn't really. Just Marquez fans who like to make excuses after all his losses.

by Lance Thu 28 Nov 2013, 1:08 pm

I like Marquez a lot. great value for money, but some people do seem to think he can do no wrong. hes been very unlucky against Manny, but John beat him fair and square, and poor Bradley must have been plain lucky....even though he outboxed him start to finish

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 1:55 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??
Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.

Whoooaaaa, someone's found Boxrec.....

On that note, and to address your earlier points, if we were to remove any element of subjectivity and boxing knowledge from how we compile these mythical rankings, and were to assume we've never watched any fights and are only looking at the 'W's and 'L's on paper, then this whole exercise is redundant as the boys and Boxrec have already formulated the scientific answer for us:

1. Floyd
2. Ward
3. Wlad K
4. Bradley
5. JMM
6. Alvarez
7. Martinez
8. Froch
9. Hoppo
10. D Garcia
11. GGG
12. Pac
13. Pulev
14. Devon Alexander
15. Adonis Stevenson

by mobilemaster8 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:03 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??
Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.
Whoooaaaa, someone's found Boxrec.....

On that note, and to address your earlier points, if we were to remove any element of subjectivity and boxing knowledge from how we compile these mythical rankings, and were to assume we've never watched any fights and are only looking at the 'W's and 'L's on paper, then this whole exercise is redundant as the boys and Boxrec have already formulated the scientific answer for us:

1. Floyd
2. Ward
3. Wlad K
4. Bradley
5. JMM
6. Alvarez
7. Martinez
8. Froch
9. Hoppo
10. D Garcia
11. GGG
12. Pac
13. Pulev
14. Devon Alexander
15. Adonis Stevenson

Thought the same thing when he started reeling out statistics of an average fighter in Chris John and his opponent list.

To be fair, he has had some belting wins against Hosono, Piriyapinyo, Kimura and Merdov in his last 4 outings. All top class operators ranked in the top 500 P4P.

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:26 pm

mobilemaster8 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??
Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.
Whoooaaaa, someone's found Boxrec.....

On that note, and to address your earlier points, if we were to remove any element of subjectivity and boxing knowledge from how we compile these mythical rankings, and were to assume we've never watched any fights and are only looking at the 'W's and 'L's on paper, then this whole exercise is redundant as the boys and Boxrec have already formulated the scientific answer for us:

1. Floyd
2. Ward
3. Wlad K
4. Bradley
5. JMM
6. Alvarez
7. Martinez
8. Froch
9. Hoppo
10. D Garcia
11. GGG
12. Pac
13. Pulev
14. Devon Alexander
15. Adonis Stevenson
Thought the same thing when he started reeling out statistics of an average fighter in Chris John and his opponent list.

To be fair, he has had some belting wins against Hosono, Piriyapinyo, Kimura and Merdov in his last 4 outings. All top class operators ranked in the top 500 P4P.

It is all subjective. Chris john is the most avoided fighter in the featherweight division, people know if they face him they lose. What has Pulev done to deserve to be above Chris John?

10 years as an unbeaten world champion and beating marquez who was the #5 P4P fighter in the world at the time victories over tough fighters like rocky juarez, oscar leon and derrick gainer which is far more than hat adrian broner or robert guerrero or pulev have done who are on sone lists.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:31 pm

Some of those wins were years ago, I may as well have Jones and Hopkins in the top 5 if boxers live off past glories. I must ask who the hell is Oscar Leon?

John is avoided in the sense nobody wants to fight in Indonesia and get shafted, the top men are busy fighting for money in America.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:38 pm

HOW DARE YOU HAVE HOPPO AT NO:9 TOPPY!!!

Are you stupid!!?? He was beat by the man who was knocked out twice in a row and stopped prior yet beat that prior champion and lost to the man yet went on and won another world title of an undefeated man who then got stopped by the man who beat the man and then he went on to win against a mandatory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:40 pm

Marquez got robbed by Mayweather as well apparently

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:40 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:HOW DARE YOU HAVE HOPPO AT NO:9 TOPPY!!!

Are you stupid!!?? He was beat by the man who was knocked out twice in a row and stopped prior yet beat that prior champion and lost to the man yet went on and won another world title of an undefeated man who then got stopped by the man who beat the man and then he went on to win against a mandatory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem, I know it's not what you're getting at, but that's Boxrec's list. Not mine.

I had him 15, from memory.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:42 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
mobilemaster8 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??
Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.
Whoooaaaa, someone's found Boxrec.....

On that note, and to address your earlier points, if we were to remove any element of subjectivity and boxing knowledge from how we compile these mythical rankings, and were to assume we've never watched any fights and are only looking at the 'W's and 'L's on paper, then this whole exercise is redundant as the boys and Boxrec have already formulated the scientific answer for us:

1. Floyd
2. Ward
3. Wlad K
4. Bradley
5. JMM
6. Alvarez
7. Martinez
8. Froch
9. Hoppo
10. D Garcia
11. GGG
12. Pac
13. Pulev
14. Devon Alexander
15. Adonis Stevenson
Thought the same thing when he started reeling out statistics of an average fighter in Chris John and his opponent list.

To be fair, he has had some belting wins against Hosono, Piriyapinyo, Kimura and Merdov in his last 4 outings. All top class operators ranked in the top 500 P4P.
It is all subjective. Chris john is the most avoided fighter in the featherweight division, people know if they face him they lose. What has Pulev done to deserve to be above Chris John?

10 years as an unbeaten world champion and beating marquez who was the #5 P4P fighter in the world at the time victories over tough fighters like rocky juarez, oscar leon and derrick gainer which is far more than hat adrian broner or robert guerrero or pulev have done who are on sone lists.

You said you didn't want any subjectivity though, just a purely objective a-bt-b-bt-c way of looking at it. That (in a nutshell) is how Boxrec arrived at that list. All science, no subjectivity.

by mobilemaster8 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:44 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Some of those wins were years ago, I may as well have Jones and Hopkins in the top 5 if boxers live off past glories. I must ask who the hell is Oscar Leon?

John is avoided in the sense nobody wants to fight in Indonesia and get shafted, the top men are busy fighting for money in America.

Against each other in quality fights.

Broner vs Paulie
Garcia vs Mathyssee
Donaire vs Rigondeux
Alvarez vs Mayweather
Prov vs Alvarado

ETC ETC ETC

So he beats Johnny Gonzalez, Abner Mares, Gary Russell Jr, Salido?

Doubt it very very much.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:45 pm

Boxrec's Current ("Active") rating wrote:1.Every boxer gets a first rating of 0 before his first bout.
2.After every bout, the ratings of the two boxers involved are changed depending on the bout's official result (KO, TKO, RTD, UD, PTS, NWS, MD, SD, DQ, TD, DRAW).
3.The value of a result varies between v=1 and v=0.
4.The clear decision factor varies between cd=1 and cd=0.
5.The winner cannot lose points for KO, TKO, RTD, DQ, TD and decisions on points with cd=1
6.KO, TKO, RTD are rewarded with full value v=1, cd=1.
7.NWS is rewarded with full value v=1 for 12 rounds boxed and more and a lower value related to the number of rounds boxed. Clear decision factor cd=1.
8.UD, PTS are rewarded with full value v=1 for 12 rounds boxed and more and a lower value related to the number of rounds boxed, clear decision factor cd=1. This is valid, if the score cards are not available.
9.DRAW is rewarded with full value v=1 for 12 rounds boxed and more and a lower value related to the number of rounds boxed. Clear decision factor cd=0.
10.MD, SD, DQ, TD are rewarded with full value v=1 for 12 rounds boxed and more and a lower value related to the number of rounds boxed. Clear decision factor cd=0.5. This is valid, if the score cards are not available.
11.If the score cards are available, the value rewarded is in direct proportion to the rounds boxed, with full value v=1 for 12 rounds boxed and more. The clear decision factor is in proportion to rounds boxed and the mean score difference per judge. cd=1 for a mean score difference per judge of 50% of the rounds boxed.
12.All bouts are regarded to have the same weight independent of titles.
13.The winner gets a certain part of the opponent's points and a certain part of the rating difference to the opponent's rating.
14.For a DRAW the rating of the higher rated boxer is reduced by some part of the point difference; the rating of the lower rated boxer is enhanced by the same amount of points.
15. The full relative point reward is 33%. It is in direct proportion to the pre-bout rating of the defeated opponent.
16.The winner can get up to 25 additional points per opponent's launch state rank
17.The maximum launch state rank regarded is 15 - and so the maximum number of additional points is 375
18.This value is reduced by the own rating, and it is set in direct proportion to the rounds boxed and the clearness of the decision
19.This value is multipied by the maximum of 6 * the opponent's launch state+1 and the minimum of the opponent's rating and 25 * the opponent's launch state
20.This value is divided by 25 * the opponent's launch state
21.This value is multiplied by the quotient of the maximum of the opponent rating and 18 on one side and the sum of the maxima of the opponent rating and 18 and the maxima of the own rating and 18
22.Launch states are: 1.0 = no recent win
2.1 = 1 recent win, 2 = 2 recent wins, 3 = 3 recent wins
3.4 = recent win over opponent with state 3, 5 = 2 recent wins over opponent with state 3, 6 = 3 recent wins over opponent with state 3
4.7 = recent win over opponent with state 6, 8 = 2 recent wins over opponent with state 6, 9 = 3 recent wins over opponent with state 6
5.10 = recent win over opponent with state 9, 11 = 2 recent wins over opponent with state 9, 12 = 3 recent wins over opponent with state 9
6.13 = recent win over opponent with state 12, 14 = 2 recent wins over opponent with state 12, 15 = 3 recent wins over opponent with state 12

23.The ratings are decreased for moving up to higher weight divisions by the square of the reciprocal ratio of the weights limits of the divisions--and they are increased by the same factor for moving down the divisions.
24.The rating of a boxer is reduced by 0% to 50%, if he didn't box an opponent with a rating of at least 50% to 0% of his own rating points within 18 months.
25.The rating of a boxer is reduced by 50% for every time period of inactivity of 18 months.
26.The pre-bout rating of a boxer successfully returning from inactivity is set to the lower value of his own rating before inactivity and the higher value of his own rating after inactivity and the pre-bout rating of his opponent.
27.The pre-bout rating of a successfully debuting boxer is set to 25% of his opponents pre-bout rating.

Formula

If a boxer with a rating of r_a before the fight defeats a boxer b with a rating of r_b before the fight with result of value v and clear decision factor cd, the new ratings r_a_new and r_b_new after a fight are, earn_f is 33.3%:
earn = earn_f * v * (r_b*cd + (r_b-r_a)/(1+2*cd));
r_a_new = r_a + earn
r_b_new = r_b - earn

Additional points (no additional loss points accounted):
opponent in launch state n: v * cd * (25*n - r_a) * max(6*(n+1),min(r_b,25*n)) / (25*n) * max(r_a,18) / (max(r_a,18) + max(r_b,18))

Rating reduction caused by missing opponent quality:
r_new = r_old * (1 - 0.5*(1 - best_opp/r_old/0.5))

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:45 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
mobilemaster8 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Can't believe no one else is even putting Chris John in their top 15.
Maybe because he's not even top in his own division and has almost never fought anyone of note??
Unbeaten in 13 years since he turned pro in 2000.

won the wba belt in 2003 beating oscar leon (oscar leon was ranked # 5 P4P fighter in the world at the time) and has held it ever since (been a champion for over 10 years including 18 title defences) and defending the wba belt by beating juan manuel marquez ( who was in the ring P4P top 10 list).

51 fights 0 defeats against 2 P4P top 10 opponents and 6 victories over former titleholders and he is the current longest reigning world champion holding the wba belt for over 10 years

If people are going to include adrian broner, robert guerrero or austin trout then surely Chris John should be included, his achievemnets are certainly more than the mentioned names.
Whoooaaaa, someone's found Boxrec.....

On that note, and to address your earlier points, if we were to remove any element of subjectivity and boxing knowledge from how we compile these mythical rankings, and were to assume we've never watched any fights and are only looking at the 'W's and 'L's on paper, then this whole exercise is redundant as the boys and Boxrec have already formulated the scientific answer for us:

1. Floyd
2. Ward
3. Wlad K
4. Bradley
5. JMM
6. Alvarez
7. Martinez
8. Froch
9. Hoppo
10. D Garcia
11. GGG
12. Pac
13. Pulev
14. Devon Alexander
15. Adonis Stevenson
Thought the same thing when he started reeling out statistics of an average fighter in Chris John and his opponent list.

To be fair, he has had some belting wins against Hosono, Piriyapinyo, Kimura and Merdov in his last 4 outings. All top class operators ranked in the top 500 P4P.
It is all subjective. Chris john is the most avoided fighter in the featherweight division, people know if they face him they lose. What has Pulev done to deserve to be above Chris John?

10 years as an unbeaten world champion and beating marquez who was the #5 P4P fighter in the world at the time victories over tough fighters like rocky juarez, oscar leon and derrick gainer which is far more than hat adrian broner or robert guerrero or pulev have done who are on sone lists.
You said you didn't want any subjectivity though, just a purely objective a-bt-b-bt-c way of looking at it. That (in a nutshell) is how Boxrec arrived at that list. All science, no subjectivity.

no subjectivity on results eg you think bradley lost to pacquio and his next fight but the records say he won.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:48 pm

So basically you don't watch any fights, have no idea who most of these guys are and simply use Boxrec to come a lazy conclusion. Performance levels are subjective and key to how a boxer rates. You'll find very few giving Rios credit for 'beating' Abril.

by sparxz Thu 28 Nov 2013, 3:03 pm

1. Mayweather Jr
2. Andre Ward
3. Timothy Bradley
4. Wlad K
5. Chris John
6.JMM
7. Sergio Martinez
8. Manny PAC
9. Froch
10. GGG
11.Rigo
12. Alverez
13. M. Garcia
14. D. Garcia
15.Devon Alexander

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 3:05 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:So basically you don't watch any fights, have no idea who most of these guys are and simply use Boxrec to come a lazy conclusion. Performance levels are subjective and key to how a boxer rates. You'll find very few giving Rios credit for 'beating' Abril.

Exactly.

According to the Boxrec/C_S methodology that goes down as a win for Rios, and a good win at that given Abril's own record/ranking.

But to take that approach provides a fallacious answer.

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 3:09 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Exactly.

According to the Boxrec/C_S methodology that goes down as a win for Rios, and a good win at that given Abril's own record/ranking.

But to take that approach provides a fallacious answer.

Trussman wrote:Or maybe when someone wins the FA cup with an offside goal..........Maybe we can declare it vacant in our minds that year............

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 3:47 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Exactly.

According to the Boxrec/C_S methodology that goes down as a win for Rios, and a good win at that given Abril's own record/ranking.

But to take that approach provides a fallacious answer.
Trussman wrote:Or maybe when someone wins the FA cup with an offside goal..........Maybe we can declare it vacant in our minds that year............

1. Can't you fight your own battles? I successfully and comfortably countered this silly point anyway.
2. Can you not answer the Rios-Abril point?
3. If 100% scientific formulaic objectivity based purely on results is how you think it should be done, why doesn't your list match Boxrec's? And why does John not feature on Boxrec's at all??

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:50 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Exactly.

According to the Boxrec/C_S methodology that goes down as a win for Rios, and a good win at that given Abril's own record/ranking.

But to take that approach provides a fallacious answer.
Trussman wrote:Or maybe when someone wins the FA cup with an offside goal..........Maybe we can declare it vacant in our minds that year............
1. Can't you fight your own battles? I successfully and comfortably countered this silly point anyway.
2. Can you not answer the Rios-Abril point?
3. If 100% scientific formulaic objectivity based purely on results is how you think it should be done, why doesn't your list match Boxrec's? And why does John not feature on Boxrec's at all??

I honestly think in your head you actually believe you countered it

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:53 pm

So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 5:38 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football

if you want to lose weight I found this great website for you

http://www.fitnessfirst.co.uk/

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 28 Nov 2013, 5:40 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football
if you want to lose weight I found this great website for you

http://www.fitnessfirst.co.uk/

No need for that - just feed him your contributions to the treasury - he'll be thin by monday morning.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:07 pm

I do love how Dior quickly changes the subject when his point has been proven to be so redundant. Aside from stats he offers absolutely nothing to a debate.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:09 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football
if you want to lose weight I found this great website for you

http://www.fitnessfirst.co.uk/

Actually already a member, believe it or not......

So, juvenile distractions aside, an answer to points 2 and 3??

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:22 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football
if you want to lose weight I found this great website for you

http://www.fitnessfirst.co.uk/
Actually already a member, believe it or not......

So, juvenile distractions aside, an answer to points 2 and 3??

Firstly quote where any of my posts have highlighted that my views are point 3.

by kingraf Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:29 pm

a member of an online fitness group/pretentious bunch, TH24?? I used to have time for you.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:31 pm

You two are becoming as painful as watching the Houston Oilers back in the 80s.......

by Champagne_Socialist Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:34 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You two are becoming as painful as watching the Houston Oilers back in the 80s.......

sorry dad

by All Time Great Fri 29 Nov 2013, 12:25 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:I have made a new list

1 Wladimir Klitschko.
2 Manny Pacquio
3 Chris john
4 Andre Ward
5 Floyd mayweather
6 Hopkins
7 donaire
8 Timothy Bradley
9 canelo alvarez
10 Vitali Klitschko
11 Abner Mares
12 Robert Guerrero
13 Yuriorkis Gamboa
14 David Haye
15 rigendioux

Forgot about Chris John who isthe undefeated world champion
Pahahaha seriously, ATG, you've got to consider scrapping C_S ridiculous lists!!

Just to note, a fighter needs 2 votes in order for his points to get counted (e.g Haye, Mares, Guerrero and John's points may not be included if no one else votes for them).

Although, the list in my opinion is somewhat out there as justification has been given I will include the points.

Chris John's ranking is an interesting debate, but in my opinion for a fighter to be a Top 10 P4P fighter then realistically they should be taking on the top guys in their division. The Marquez fight (although a top win, and raises questions as to why we do rate Marquez so highly on this board?) was a while ago and John hasn't really thought anyone of note since that.

by All Time Great Fri 29 Nov 2013, 12:31 am

P4P #3 is definatly up for grabs now that Donnaire and Marquez have suffered defeats. Have a feeling Tim Bradley may sneak it due to his inclusion in the majority of people's list.

Interesting to see how the old guard of Marquez, Pacquiao and Martinez will fair in these rankings too. Is the changing of guard finally occurring?

by Champagne_Socialist Fri 29 Nov 2013, 2:04 am

All Time Great wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:I have made a new list

1 Wladimir Klitschko.
2 Manny Pacquio
3 Chris john
4 Andre Ward
5 Floyd mayweather
6 Hopkins
7 donaire
8 Timothy Bradley
9 canelo alvarez
10 Vitali Klitschko
11 Abner Mares
12 Robert Guerrero
13 Yuriorkis Gamboa
14 David Haye
15 rigendioux

Forgot about Chris John who isthe undefeated world champion
Pahahaha seriously, ATG, you've got to consider scrapping C_S ridiculous lists!!
Just to note, a fighter needs 2 votes in order for his points to get counted (e.g Haye, Mares, Guerrero and John's points may not be included if no one else votes for them).

Although, the list in my opinion is somewhat out there as justification has been given I will include the points.

Chris John's ranking is an interesting debate, but in my opinion for a fighter to be a Top 10 P4P fighter then realistically they should be taking on the top guys in their division. The Marquez fight (although a top win, and raises questions as to why we do rate Marquez so highly on this board?) was a while ago and John hasn't really thought anyone of note since that.

I would put Chris John at #6 on reflection with mayweather taking #3 and Bradley taking #5. I wuld also swap Rigendioux with Vitali Klitschko and i would change David Haye forGGG.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:17 am

In other words, you can't make up your mind because you don't know what you're talking about...

by TopHat24/7 Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:18 am

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:So that's a no to answering points 2 and 3 then??

If you want to talk football though, I've found this board for you:

https://www.606v2.com/f3-football
if you want to lose weight I found this great website for you

http://www.fitnessfirst.co.uk/
Actually already a member, believe it or not......

So, juvenile distractions aside, an answer to points 2 and 3??
Firstly quote where any of my posts have highlighted that my views are point 3.

You've said results must be taken at face value. For example the fact the 999 out of 1000 people scored Pac a clear winner over Bradley, Brad got the result therefore this must determine their respective ranking.

Well, that's what Boxrec do.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:21 am

kingraf wrote:a member of an online fitness group/pretentious bunch, TH24?? I used to have time for you.

Lol, nah, bit lost in translation there my saffa friend.

Fitness First is a national chain of gyms, that was just their website. Smile

by kingraf Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:27 am

oh. my mistake. carry on then.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:31 am

kingraf wrote:oh. my mistake. carry on then.

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Fri 29 Nov 2013, 10:31 am

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Andre Ward
3. Guillermo Rigondeaux
4. Timothy Bradley
5. Juan Manuel Marquez
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Sergio Martinez
8. Mikey Garcia
9. Wlad Klitschko
10. Nonito Donaire
11. Gennady Golovkin
12. Danny Garcia
13. Adrian Broner
14. Roman Gonzalez
15. Adonis Stevenson

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