Scotland v England, Murrayfield, Sat 8th Feb, 17:00

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread to discuss next weeks game.

ENGLAND

England head coach Stuart Lancaster has kept faith with the side which lost to France and named an unchanged line-up for Saturday's match against Scotland.
Gloucester's Jonny May starts on the wing despite breaking his nose nine minutes into the 26-24 loss in Paris.
Courtney Lawes will be in the second row after his cheekbone bruising eased, while Danny Care and Owen Farrell form the half-back partnership.
"They're determined to put last week's result behind them," said Lancaster.
England will be hoping to avoid a third successive Test defeat, having lost to New Zealand in the autumn and France in the opening weekend of the Six Nations.
Scotland, however, were well beaten by Ireland on Sunday have not prevailed in the Calcutta Cup since their 15-9 win at Murrayfield in 2008.
"Scotland will be hugely motivated by their defeat in Dublin and, as we found two years ago, Murrayfield is a tough place to play," added Lancaster, who began his England reign with a 13-6 win against Scotland in 2012.
May is not expected to wear a protective face mask when he wins his third cap in Edinburgh.
Luther Burrell, who scored on his debut at the Stade de France, will make his second Test appearance at centre, while Jack Nowell takes up the right-wing spot for what will also be his second cap.
Wasps prop Matt Mullan will travel as the 24th man.

England XI v Scotland: Mike Brown (Harlequins, 22 caps), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 20 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 43 caps), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 16 caps), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 51 caps), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 44 caps), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 15 caps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 26 caps), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 24 caps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 21 caps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 6 caps)
Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 11 caps), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, 2 caps), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 13 caps), Brad Barritt (Saracens, 17 caps), Alex Goode (Saracens, 14 caps)

Scotland

Scots team:

1.grant
2.ford
3.low
4.swinson
5.hamilton
6.wilson
7.fusaro
8.denton
9.laidlaw
10.weir
11.lamont
12.scott
13.dunbar
14.seymor
15 hogg

Really sad news coming out from the SRU account on twitter, it seems that a fan died at todays Calcutta Cup game. No details as yet but it's a sobering thought.

There was a man receiving CPR at one of the entrances for around 15 minutes just after kick off - in full view of that entire part of the stadium. I didn't notice it but my brother said it was pretty horrific to watch.

Why are folk singing the praises of Denton? He show boats. Doesn't get involved in rucks. Hangs back looking for the glory carry. And when he gets the ball he runs into the first defender, doesn't get over the gain line. Never offloads. Poor. Poor. Poor.

Beattie is by far the better player.

eek,

thats really sad news

doctor_grey wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Interesting game. From an England perspective I thought that the pack were generally excellent bar one or two errors holding onto the ball at key times.

That's four excellent performances I've seen from this pack on the trot. Lawes was MOTM last week for me and he came a close second this week. Billy V was outstanding. Marler again raised his game, he's really starting to look like the U20s sensation he was.

Wood and Robshaw were good, Hartley was excellent. Dan Cole did well without standing out in any area, which is a concern. When is Davy Wilson back, I think we'll need him for Ireland?

Youngs again confirmed he's a super player but he has the yips at the moment. Webber to come in for Ireland.

A pack and bench of :
1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola

16. R Webber 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan

To me that is a punishing forward group. Everyone on the bench is powerful and offer carrying threats. On Ireland's display today that is a forward pack who could beat them.

Since I didn't see the match yet, can you tell me how the backs worked together?  Looking at the stats I see England dominated most important numbers again (yards, possession, territory).  Could England have scored more than 20 points?  Was the pitch that much of a factor?   I need to wait for the match to go up on iPlayer...........

Given their domination of territory and the lineout and scotlands frankly woeful tackling england shouldve put many more points n the board. This was the thrust of Lancasters post match comments. Farrell missed a lot of kicks, conditions no doubt contributing.

Its hard to be dissapointed by such a comprehensively one sided performance though. How much of that was down to Scotland being THAT bad is yet to be ascertained.

Brown has two tries in two games, unheard of. Burrell too. That alone shows unprecedented ability to cross the line by englands backs under Lancaster.

As much as I want to be negative you gotta hand it to england on this one

Was at the game today and was lucky enough to get a tour of the scotland changing room and tunnel area. Met sean Maitland , Hugo Southwell and ruraidh Jackson who were all great guys. The feeling i got from them was that they can't wait for Vern cotter to arrive. Seems like the players are really suffering under Johnson and don't believe in the tactics. Chris Paterson and al kellock both said similar things as well later on in the day.
Yes some of the players aren't up to it but a lot of the scotland team are very good and shine for their clubs in England and France. The performances since Johnson arrived have just got downhill, yes we finished third last year but the win over ireland was a fluke due to how little possession we had. Players are being told to kick too much and try to force the opposition into mistakes which is no way to play rugby. One positive is that things can only get better from scotland especially when cotter arrives. According to kellock cotter is the modern day Jim teller!

The Scotland team do look a little like they're going through the motions until the new guy arrives.

Peter,
Thanks bro. It is nice to see England's back score some tries, and not as a one off.  Let's hope this means something, and I suppose we will learn what it means in a fortnight.  Haven't seen the Ireland match yet either, but from the news reports they were very good.  

What do you think this match will mean for selection for Ireland?

I think a combination of the conditions, occasional over-excitement from the players and a free-for-all at the breakdown meant that we weren't regularly able to put enough phases together to score the number of tries that our dominance meant we should. The scrum awarded when Scott had clearly gone off his feet on the stroke of half time, and Farrell kicking the ball away prematurely when we were making ground in the second half, were a couple of examples.

The game against Ireland could be phenomenal.

Good inside info Maj, but is a kick on the teeth to us fans who pay a lot of money to watch the games (cheapest ticket today was 40 quid) if the players are just going through the motions.

Really doesn't bode well for the rest of the tournament if they are either.

doctor_grey wrote:Thanks bro. It is nice to see England's back score some tries, and not as a one off.  Let's hope this means something, and I suppose we will learn what it means in a fortnight.  Haven't seen the Ireland match yet either, but from the news reports they were very good.  

What do you think this match will mean for selection for Ireland?

Personally I would expect the same starting 15 if possible. Both set pieces went well and the midfield seemed to be starting to click. Twelvetrees threw one absolutely lovely pass to put May outside the last defender in a 3 on 3, for example, and I doubt Lancaster has too much interest in trying another new starting centre partnership unecessarily. Nowell and May also seemed comfortable.

Was especially concerned about Nowell. If he felt comfortable that is a good thing. From the reports I read, Ireland was kicking to the Welsh backs a lot, so we could expect more of the same towards May and Nowell.

I remember 2 years ago when Denton first made an appearance, and he was fantastic. Made life very very hard for us. Today he did some showy runs that got absolutely nowhere.

I am sure he has it in him to do better, but the only possible reason I can imagine why he was rated at all today is because he actually took the ball and ran straight.

Beattie for his sins didnt do any better, because every time he got the ball he got hit before he could even move.

Both players are a lot better than they showed today.

doctor_grey wrote:Was especially concerned about Nowell.  If he felt comfortable that is a good thing.  From the reports I read, Ireland was kicking to the Welsh backs a lot, so we could expect more of the same towards May and Nowell.

Well one lesson I'd definitely take from today is that its a waste of time kicking to Nowell and expecting him to mess up. Very assured. Actually he is a little bit like a certain 50 cap Welsh player, even down to the scrum cap. He also set up Brown for his try very nicely (and I think there was too much for May to do had he passed to him in the move right before)

Ireland did kick a lot, though it's not clear yet whether that is going to be their style of play throughout the tournament, or was a specific plan to keep the ball away from the contact area and Wales' back row.

There aren't any particular concerns with our back three under the high ball anyway, and May is a great counter-attacker. I doubt Ireland will be keen to invite him, Brown and Vunipola to run it back at them too much. I'm more concerned with how we're going to stop their rolling maul, which has looked scary in the first two games. They scored two tries from it today, but aside from that they didn't do much attacking at all. Trimble made one very good run. If we can stop the maul at source then I'll be pretty confident, especially at Twickenham.

doctor_grey wrote:Was especially concerned about Nowell.  If he felt comfortable that is a good thing.  From the reports I read, Ireland was kicking to the Welsh backs a lot, so we could expect more of the same towards May and Nowell.

Why?

England are a different team to Wales. They'll need either a vaguely different plan or a completely different one. I don't think Ireland under Schmidt will be a single plan team

To be fair Cuthbert doesnt have a good reputation for anything other than running with the ball, so was probably targeted. Having said that he was probably one of Wales's better performers

doctor_grey wrote:Peter,
Thanks bro. It is nice to see England's back score some tries, and not as a one off.  Let's hope this means something, and I suppose we will learn what it means in a fortnight.  Haven't seen the Ireland match yet either, but from the news reports they were very good.  

What do you think this match will mean for selection for Ireland?

Yep it was actually showing signs of some coherence in the back line. The sort of glimmer of hope that's represented by a hope of expectation when the ball goes wide 5m from the try-line, rather than dread.

I don't think it'll be our first choice back line but there is some quality starting to rear up. I definitely think May could take the 11 shirt. Brown looks ever more comfortable at the back. Nowell looks like a quality 23 option. Burrell did well for the most part but I can't help thinking he looks like he's slightly out of position.

Big credit to Farrell as well. I've been really critical of his gain-line abilities but he's shown real differences in his game. It doesn't look quite natural yet but he's really evolving his game.

36 could nail the 12 shirt. It really depends on his performances against Ireland and Wales. Get that right and he's in. All fit and well I'd be tempted with:

9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. M Tuilagi
14. M Yarde
15. M Brown

21. B Youngs 22. G Ford 23. C Wade

Really sad to hear about the fan who died. Took place just a few sections across from where I was sitting. Saw the police and paramedics there attending to someone but had no idea it was so serious.

Farrell is looking so good because having an attacking 9 in good form inside him allows him to play the flatter game he has been trying to

Ireland can't kick to England's back 3 because it won't work. All 3 are assured under the high ball and dangerous on the counter. They can take far more sensible approaches, like targeting the positional uncertainty at 13-14 maybe, but basically if they can boss the breakdown they will win. If we can, we will

Two words- feckin embarrassing !

Please Johnson you useless tw** feck off back to Australia now - you are only delaying the inevitable !

Can't we get telfer in for the next 3 games? Get him to pick the team and tell the boys to go out, play their own way, play for the jersey. Not like we have anything to lose!!!

Majestic83 wrote:Was at the game today and was lucky enough to get a tour of the scotland changing room and tunnel area. Met sean Maitland , Hugo Southwell and ruraidh Jackson who were all great guys. The feeling i got from them was that they can't wait for Vern cotter to arrive. Seems like the players are really suffering under Johnson and don't believe in the tactics. Chris Paterson and al kellock both said similar things as well later on in the day.
Yes some of the players aren't up to it but a lot of the scotland team are very good and shine for their clubs in England and France. The performances since Johnson arrived have just got downhill, yes we finished third last year but the win over ireland was a fluke due to how little possession we had. Players are being told to kick too much and try to force the opposition into mistakes which is no way to play rugby. One positive is that things can only get better from scotland especially when cotter arrives. According to kellock cotter is the modern day Jim teller!

Excellent news Maj and I would entirely believe a suggestion that Scott Johnson has lost the dressing room. Slightly worrying for the rest of the tournament. I would hope that we adopt a similar approach to the one adopted by the French in the later days of Marc 'merde' Lievremont. Just ignore what the coaches say and play what's in front of you, as you want.

This guy keeps surfacing like a bad case of ringworm. He worked for USA Rugby for a while as Head Coach or DOR. I remember talking with some USA Rugby people a few years ago about Johnson and no one was ever sure where he was coming from. Many American kids had played American Football and were used to good coaching environments, but were very disappointed by Johnson. I am not sure if he has ever left a team in better shape compared to when he arrived (a objective for everyone in all walks of life).

For England, I still think that Farrell is weak in attack. He has moments of magic but he doesn't ignite the England back line. Burrell was running excellent lines all day yesterday and its no surprise that the breaks (and try) he made were as a result of Danny Care's lead up and direction. In short, I feel that most of the Englands breaks are more to do with moments of individual skill than organisation from your 10.

For me, Vunipola was MoTM yesterday, he was everywhere and just improves everytime I see him. Lawes again also put in a massive shift and is second to POM as player of the tournament so far in my opinion.

N Jones wrote:For England, I still think that Farrell is weak in attack.

Yawn.

Do people even watch him?

Does he just have a face people hate?

England would be insane to change their XV, and I doubt they will change their 23 unless theres people genuinely fit to come back in. Even with Tuillagi, given the impact Burrell has had and the form hes in if its a case of "first game back" Id rather seem him eased back from the bench than dropped in.
If Webber is out the Youngs haters will not have their way. Unless Corbiserio gets new knees and
For the longer term I still have a huge concern that we arent giving anything to test a second fly half at this level. Can Goode be dropped from the bench to make way? The problem is they still dont trust the 80 minute fitness of Nowell and Mays face.
Dan Cole was the only player you could single out as having had a dubious game, although no issues in his core job (made easy by scotland) he seemed to be standing around watching scotland players run past him. He looks knackered, hes playing too much rugby ....not only has his england/lions schedule got excessive but hes being expected to play 80 minutes now and doesnt have Castro sharing his burden at club level, England need to manage him better but the lack of reserve is problematic ...its evident England dont trust Thomas giving him only 5 minutes when Cole was utterly spent.
I cant help feeling injury are a couple of injuries away from the whole house of cards crashing down.

Im trying not to get too excited by this game. Scotland really were that bad. Actually worse. Weve seen England wipe the floor with them several times in the post 2003 era, and sill be nothing more than a decent side. Whats refreshing though is that they tried to be enterprising and use their dominance to release the backs even in bad conditions...previous games like this weve seen them go back to "wilko ball" and play themselves into trouble.

Im not sure I really buy this upward curve stuff....england have been a 4-1 team with at least one big win for most 6 nations in the last decade. Tracking results in the Lancaster era not a lot has changed, or even going back the couple of years prior to that.
Maybe Im just even more frustrated by the predictable implosion against France, a game they shouldve won.

England have yet to be tested by strong opposition playing well. Ireland will be where we learn if this result really meant anything or not. Gotta be happy with that score though, lack of penalties conceded, solidity of the set piece, tackles made, and outside backs with the ball in hand looking individually dangerous.

biuscuit wrote:Im not sure I really buy this upward curve stuff.

its not about believing- Its about fact in every single area.

You have some kind of bias- that you cant get past i take it?

biscuit wrote:Maybe Im just even more frustrated by the predictable implosion against France, a game they shouldve won.

last week you said we didnt deserve the win.. you mentioned that we could never win the game due to who SL picked?

What are you jabbering about?

mystiroakey wrote:

N Jones wrote:For England, I still think that Farrell is weak in attack.

Yawn.

Do people even watch him?

Does he just have a face people hate?

I gave an explanation as to why I think that but as usual you are not able to compile a reasonable counter response or debate, just select the quote that you wish to highlight.

PSW,

Cole had a dubious game? Personally I thought that he was a rock and really led the English forwards well. He and Heartley were at the base of all Englands good forward work.

Tom Youngs' throw-in is weak.We all know that. So why were long throws-in called when he came on?

Crazy imo.

Just call it to the first or second jumper and reduce the margin of error. Especially on line-out training runs like yesterday.

Nachos Jones wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

N Jones wrote:For England, I still think that Farrell is weak in attack.

Yawn.

Do people even watch him?

Does he just have a face people hate?

I gave an explanation as to why I think that but as usual you are not able to compile a reasonable counter response or debate, just select the quote that you wish to highlight.

No explanation what so ever. Just nonsense based on what you have admitted to allways feeling..

You watch farel with a bias. You look out for his play because you dont rate him. So you pick on his faults. He can never ever win with some fans like you..

There is nothing I can say to take your bias from you. The lad is a very good player and seems to learn game on game.. Some of his late passing has been imaclate last few games, he has run the line much better.

When England capitulated v France last week- did anyone notice that Farrell was actually KO'd and couldn't move any more!!!!

Coincidence- No - probably not!!

mystiroakey wrote:
No explanation what so ever. Just nonsense based on what you have admitted to allways feeling..

You watch farel with a bias. You look out for his play because you dont rate him. So you pick on his faults. He can never ever win with some fans like you..

There is nothing I can say to take your bias from you. The lad is a very good player and seems to learn game on game.. Some of his late passing has been imaclate last few games, he has run the line much better.

When England capitulated v France last week- did anyone notice that Farrell was actually KO'd and couldn't move any more!!!!

Coincidence- No - probably not!!

See there you are wrong again, I do actually rate Farrell highly and always have. I just think that he still has a massive amount to learn with regards to getting a backline moving. I believe that he can be an excellent 10 given time but right now he is far from being the finished article. I actually have a very high expectation of him which may be why I am a little harsh on him at times.

If you watch the match again (I am unbiased) you will see that the beautiful running lines from Burrell were actually created by Danny Care's movement. Take the attacking Care out of the equation and I think that you will see Farrell struggle.

You said that Farrell couldnt lead the line and is poor in attack!

He has seemed to lead it fine last couple of games. Our backs have although not been amazing- are starting to move forward. 

Did you not notice that Farrell was KO'd when England lost organisation in the last game... No one else took up the mantle

Nachos Jones wrote:PSW,

Cole had a dubious game? Personally I thought that he was a rock and really led the English forwards well. He and Heartley were at the base of all Englands good forward work.

Im focusing on the negatives. Theres several occasions where players ghosted past him and he was off the pace later in the game. Englands defensive work relies on forwards charging round like headless chickens. He also didnt offer anything with the ball in hand. Not his primary job by any stretch, I said he did well in that. Englands pack were utterly dominant, so Im not suggesting he had a bad game as such just his lethargy being the one identifiable blackspot. The ESPN stats have him down as missing 4 tackles , and the rest of the team 7.

I said that he was weak in attack, not poor but that he also has his moments of magic. I do feel that he cant ignite the backs but that may come.

Yesterday, the backs were organised by Care, not Farrell. It was Care's movement that set Burrell on his outstanding running lines. At 21 he has a long way to go but as I said earlier, he has the potential to be great.

Unfortunately you will only read into things what you wish.

Care is a god send.

But I still think it's the partnership that works, I think both are better together.

Just watched this. Scotland weren't very good , were they ?

Even so , much to like about England's performance - except perhaps for the finishing , which still left something to be desired : would cost them against SH opposition.

Vunipola of course ; Brown , Farrell ...and I like what I see of May. Good signs I think.

Waiting to see against better opposition v Ireland...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:PSW,

Cole had a dubious game? Personally I thought that he was a rock and really led the English forwards well. He and Heartley were at the base of all Englands good forward work.

Im focusing on the negatives. Theres several occasions where players ghosted past him and he was off the pace later in the game. Englands defensive work relies on forwards charging round like headless chickens. He also didnt offer anything with the ball in hand. Not his primary job by any stretch, I said he did well in that. Englands pack were utterly dominant, so Im not suggesting he had a bad game as such just his lethargy being the one identifiable blackspot. The ESPN stats have him down as missing 4 tackles , and the rest of the team 7.

Fair enough, I just thought that he had a very solid game yesterday and led the forwards well. I remember he missed a couple of tackles but that was more due to the absolute mess that Garcia allowed to happen around the ruck.

All in all, I still think that England (even after Irelands win over Wales) have played the best rugby so far. Really not looking forward to the visit to HQ in 2 weeks.

With farrell lets be honest ...hes not a scintillating runner like Cipriani or Flood. He doesnt have the slight of hand of Ford or the accuracy of Hodgson.
But hes stopped playing like its England c 2009 and using his full range of skills. He is running, he is passing, he is kicking long and short and he is tackling. Yes he is not naturally the best at some of those but he has made breaks with the ball in hand in both the last two tests and he has managed to get the backs into the game.
Its also worth remembering that Englands attacking system explicitly relies on the 12 to take some of that work as a playmaker. Before 36 it was Goodes job to step into the line and try the fancy stuff or hoof it.

there was a legitimate concern that Farrell was not only one dimensional in his skills but not even being asked to do anything other than stand deep and either kick or pass to the nearest static player outside him.
Now he is getting the ball to players outside him with pace. He is taking on and beating defenders himself forcing the opposition to cover more space and not know in advance what hes going to do.
Lancaste, Catt and Farrell obviously arent idiots ... they kept dropping him for Flood because of concerns about his ability to do these things. Well know they are asking him to do them more and hes producing something. Certainly as much as youd see from the golden goose Sexton, although he doenst quite have the ability to produce magic territorial kicks he does play the percentages better.

Hes no Dan Carter yet but hes looking more like the pre 2003 Wilko now that the post 2007 one. Mind his goal kicking was poor yesterday.

PSW,

Farrell does the basics extremely well but his performances in recent has actually relied more on an attacking 9. Care fits that bill brilliantly. I just think that if the attacking Care gets an injury, Farrell will struggle.
Cant really comment on his kicking yesterday as the conditions were awful for kicking.

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Was especially concerned about Nowell.  If he felt comfortable that is a good thing.  From the reports I read, Ireland was kicking to the Welsh backs a lot, so we could expect more of the same towards May and Nowell.

Why?  

England are a different team to Wales.  They'll need either a vaguely different plan or a completely different one.  I don't think Ireland under Schmidt will be a single plan team

The French tested our newbies on the wing in that way, and to good effect, albeit with a helpful bounce or two. The Doc is saying it might be worth a further punt as a tactic (not a plan as such) by Ireland. I think the new boys are learning quickly, and Billy V is covering back well and I expect the Irish management will not regard it as a key tactic. The Irish line out and the drive look formidable though.

Nachos Jones wrote:PSW,

Farrell does the basics extremely well but his performances in recent has actually relied more on an attacking 9. Care fits that bill brilliantly. I just think that if the attacking Care gets an injury, Farrell will struggle.
Cant really comment on his kicking yesterday as the conditions were awful for kicking.  

I agree that the partnership works well.

But have you really forgot about the time before care!!!

Farrell has been fine..he is adaptable. He has only ever been a team player. He does the job asked.. I have no idea why people can't see that. He doesn't have a free role. He plays to the system SL has set up

gregortree wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Was especially concerned about Nowell.  If he felt comfortable that is a good thing.  From the reports I read, Ireland was kicking to the Welsh backs a lot, so we could expect more of the same towards May and Nowell.

Why?  

England are a different team to Wales.  They'll need either a vaguely different plan or a completely different one.  I don't think Ireland under Schmidt will be a single plan team

The French tested our newbies on the wing in that way, and to good effect, albeit with a helpful bounce or two. The Doc is saying it might be worth a further punt as a tactic (not a plan as such) by Ireland. I think the new boys are learning quickly, and Billy V is covering back well and I expect the Irish management will not regard it as a key tactic. The Irish line out and the drive look formidable though.

Their maul looked incredible. That to me is a worrying sign that Schmidt is going to slowly give them more and more strings to their bow. I think Lancaster etc. have improved us in areas but I'm not sure what are weapons are and where we've really moved forward. Definitely are carrying has been a step up these last two weeks.

'our' carrying

mystiroakey wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:PSW,

Farrell does the basics extremely well but his performances in recent has actually relied more on an attacking 9. Care fits that bill brilliantly. I just think that if the attacking Care gets an injury, Farrell will struggle.
Cant really comment on his kicking yesterday as the conditions were awful for kicking.  

I agree that the partnership works well.

But have you really forgot about the time before care!!!

Farrell has been fine..he is adaptable. He has only ever been a team player. He does the job asked.. I have no idea why people can't see that. He doesn't have a free role. He plays to the system SL has set up

If Care gets injured Youngs is a like for like replacement.

A much bigger worry would be Farrell getting injured, England do not have a reserve fly half. Or reserve flankers. Or a fit reserve full back. Or a reserve tighthead. Or a reserve hooker who can throw to the back. Or reserve 12 who can act as a distributor.

yes agreed.

I would like to see cipriani get a game just to see if he is a good back up. maybe play him v Italy..

I understand he is a completely different player- but flood is now out of the equation as back up

tigertattie wrote:Why are folk singing the praises of Denton? He show boats. Doesn't get involved in rucks. Hangs back looking for the glory carry. And when he gets the ball he runs into the first defender, doesn't get over the gain line. Never offloads. Poor. Poor. Poor.

Beattie is by far the better player.

significantly the most yards made - and put his heart into it - one of the few players to do so