England Squad Assessment After 2 Rounds

I don't post on here that often as I generally don't get the time to commit to in depth discussions, however I thought that since I had a spare 30 mins I would jot down some of my thoughts on the England squads performances in the opening 2 rounds.

1. Marler - is developing nicely and is finally bringing his loose play to the international stage. Carried and defended well in the opening 2 games and his scrummaging is improving all the time, which is impressive considering his age. 7

2. Hartley - Imperious in the lineout over the opening 2 rounds. I may even go so far as to say the form hooker in the tournament. 8.5

3. Cole - No other options here at present, however his performances have been of a high standard in the opening games. Despite him suffering at scrum time against the French, something which was rectified against Scotland, his loose play has been of his usual high standards. 7

4. Launchbury - Ever improving, always understated, Mr Consistent. Offers a nice balance with Lawes and the rest of the back 5. 7

5. Lawes - This season has seen Lawes' most assured performances in an England shirt. His performance levels have grown consistently throughout the year, something which is no doubt down to his injury free run, and his lineout calling has been exemplary (when Hartley's been on the pitch). 8.5

6. Wood - Doesn't do the flash stuff like some of the other forwards, but that's not what he's there for. He grafts so that others can do the blockbuster runs or the big hits. Along with Robshaw, one of my favourite players. 7

7. Robshaw - I don't care that people don't see him as a 7, or that he isn't good enough for international rugby. I think he is the most underrated player on the international stage, consistently one of the highest tacklers, always in support of breaks, always willing to do the hard yards and always the first one down on a scrappy ball. 7.5

8. B. Vunipola - England are in a fortunate position in that they now have 2 big powerful 8's whose sole purpose it is to cause havoc. Out of the 2, Morgan does possess great speed however Billy's ball handling, allied with his work rate and sheer size mean he possesses the greater potential. Have really been impressed with how he has grown over his 5 caps this season and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he goes against the 2 Lions 8's over the coming weeks. 8.5

9. Care - Has been in a rich vein of form for a long time but has never fully realised that at international level, despite the odd glimpse. Now we're finally seeing his potential and this is partly down to the platform he is being provided by his pack. Really deserves to continue in the 9 shirt and I hope the B Youngs steps up to challenge him. Does need to continue to work on his box kicking though. 8

10. Farrell - I've never been a big fan of Farrell Jr, particularly his annoying habit of acting like a footballer on occasion, however I will hold my hand up and say that he is one of the most improved international players this season and think he is exactly what England need right now in that shirt. Long term Ford will challenge him, but he is a winner and that will only drive him on to improve. Still a long way to go mind, but he's doing really well. 8

11. May - Obviously we've not seen a lot of him yet, 1 run in the France game and then the second half of the Scotland game aside, although what I have seen I'm quite impressed. He does have a tendency to go against the grain an crab back in field which against the stronger teams could cause problems, however it did go in his favour against Scotland. I do think he should've finished his 1 on 1 against Hogg, after 36's pass, as I think someone like Savia or North would've done, however hes still quite inexperienced and needs to have the opportunity to show that he's learned from that. 6.5

12. Twelvetrees - Some people say he's overrated, some would say he's not gone well for England this season. Personally I think he went well in the Autumn, despite not getting too many chances to shine, and despite that now infamous missed tackle has been very strong in cleaning up a lot of scrappy ball for England, whether that be loose ball or taking the hard drive when needed. 6Ns wise though, I've been impressed with how he's worked alongside Burrell and think there is a nice balance to the 3/4 line. We're finally getting to see his distribution skills and he shows that he can go through a gap as well. 7

13. Burrell - For someone who is new to the international scene, Burrell has made quite an assured start. Part of a solid midfield, defensively he hasn't been shown up, despite him playing out of position! Also attacking wise he offers exactly what England want from their 13 which is gain line presence. Also 2 trys in 2 games isn't bad either. 7

14. Nowell - He's performed exactly how you would expect a 20 year old who has been backed by his national coach over someone vastly more experienced and in, arguably, better domestic form. He's made mistakes but has had the confidence to immediately shrug them off and then do something positive, beat defenders one on one, carry out an effective kick chase whereby he takes the ball and makes good yards for the team. Yes he's young, yes he will continue to make mistakes, however with each game that goes by his confidence and experience will grow and his error rate will decrease. For his one on one ability alone I would keep him in the side over Ashton. 6.5

15. Brown - He may not be as glamorous as a Halfpenny or a Dagg, but he is exceptional fullback who does the basics well and hardly ever makes a mistake, which is exactly what you want at 15 in international rugby. Finally getting the opportunity this season ahead of Goode and Foden, he has nailed the shirt as his own and long may he keep it.

Subs:

16. T. Youngs - He is a conundrum, both for the English fans as much for the coaches. I would liken him to T Croft in that he would split opinion, he's not a conventional hooker and doesn't necessarily do this basics of hooking well but offers something extra around the pack that other players in his position don't. He works best with his Leicester partnerships around him, i.e. Croft and Parling, although I would argue that neither would get in the England starting line up when fit and I wouldn't consider them a viable bench option either when you consider we have currently Attwood and Morgan taking up them slots. For me he has to go and we need to find someone else who can do the basics right, we can't afford to keep handing good field position over whenever he comes on. Personally I would look to Webber to take the 16 slot, and then develop the Attwood partnership from the bench. 4

17. M Vunipola - Has gone well from the bench so far despite only getting brief cameos. Offers a huge amount around the field, particularly in his ball carrying although his scrimmaging does require work, and this is why Marler is ahead of him. 6.5

18. Thomas - Haven't really seen enough of him at so far so it is difficult to comment. I fully expect that as soon as Wilson is fit he'll take this slot. I see him as a stop gap until some of the young pretenders develop further. ?

19. Attwood - Again not seen a lot of game time, and would like him to get a start against Italy. From what I have seen though, has slotted into the England pack seamlessly when he's arrived, and certainly offers that physical presence around the fringes. Would like to se him make this slot his own over Parling and then challenge Lawes and Launchbury from there. 6.5

20. Morgan - A great impact sub and really does continue the carrying when Vunipola goes off. I must say though that it doesn't offer a great amount of flexibility on the bench should Wood or Robshaw get injuried. For me England have no fully pinned their colours to the mast of physicality and work rate and to that end I would, should Morgan not fill this slot, we need to look at Haskell covering here or even (heaven forbid) Clark. I don't see Kvesic as anywhere near good enough at present to warrant this place but for now Morgan does the job nicely. 7

21. Dickson - I can completely understand why he got a chance in the Autumn and again why he is on the bench now, as he's one of the form 9's and keeps the Saints moving on nicely at a good tempo. That said, despite him performing reasonably well, for me he's not international quality, especially when you compare him to someone like Genia or Parra. I think the time has come for Youngs to come back into the squad, if anything just to give him some confidence. He has by far the better potential of the 2, and needs to be put under pressure to force him to realise it. 5.5

22. Goode - A good, intelligent player, whose very good at reading a game and has very good positioning as a fullback. That said, he's pretty slow for an international 15 and the way Huget beat him one on one was unacceptable. When you compare him with the current incumbent, Brown is ahead by some way. Also viewing him as a stand in 10, I don't think he has the mental attributes to play there, partly because he doesn't do it day in day out. For me its a waste of a bench slot, as a 15 he doesn't offer enough cover in the back 3 and as a 10 he isn't good enough. I think Ford must be trusted with the 10 cover from the bench from now on, if anything just to ease him into international rugby 10 mins at a time. Also it will take pressure off Farrell as he knows he won't have to play the full 80 mins of every single game. 5.5

23. Barritt - What is there to say. He's a solid operator at 12. Whilst he won't give you the runs of a Tuilagi or the creativity of a Twelvetrees he will offer a solid all round package to complement his never say die attitude in defence. Is he good enough to play international rugby? Yes. Is he good enough to start for England at 12 or 13? No. And that's the problem, the centres of 36 and Burrell, or 36 and Tuilagi (I appreciate they haven't played at this level) offer a nice balance to them. Barritt throws that balance out. Then we come to the bench slot. What flexibility does Barritt offer on the bench, he only covers centre? Also what game changing impact will he offer, or in the case of B. Vunipola/Morgan, will he continue to offer? For me you need to look at the 23 covering the back three at least. To that end, out of the current squad maybe look to Watson coming in here, he can at least offer wing/fullback cover whilst cover for the centres can be provided be Farrell or even May if things were that bad. 5

Overall: Not a bad start for England. Despite the France result the performances have been very encouraging and a marked improvement since last year. Tactically, England have been spot on in how they want to approach the game with only the silly mistakes at the start of the French game (and the subs later on) letting them down. For me, continuity is the key for the coming home fixtures and therefore I would go for the same starting 15. On the bench I would like to see Wilson return if fit, Webber over Youngs and a completely new set of backs replacements, Youngs, Ford and Watson.

Again these are just my thoughts and are not in anyway meant to antagonise anyone else.

COLE - Disagree. Watched the game again today and was surprised how little he did. He looked slow and ponderous. Didn't really add much to the team effort other than set piece. Needs to do more in today's game.

T.YOUNGS - Agree. He is a complete liability at the moment. He can not be trusted to come on in a tight game that needs to be closed out. Must be dropped.

36 and Burrell - need to be given more time together. They could be very good but not there yet by any stretch of the imagination.

Dickson - Needs to keep his place above B. Youngs. Dickson adds twice the pace to a game that the slow witted youngs offers.

Has Farrells improved performances come by through Cares presence. Having that playmaker beside him has maybe calmed him a little bit and he has shown some very good moments proving a lot of us fans wrong. He showed a lot of skill for Burrells try...his play to give the ball to Vunipola seems to have been missed by everyone or ignored.

I just want him to get his kicking shoes sorted...he misses too many points.

I think ist more an instructions thing than who hes got next to him. Farrells played with Care previously and Youngs a lot who have has pretty much exactly the same attributes.
But its not been till the France game theyve been running the ball or trying out a real range of different things. This must be the influence of Catt trying to make them less pedestrian and less preciatble and trying to keep the defense in two or three minds. Its paying dividends for the rest of the backs.


Pretty much agree with the ratings all round. Possibly bump May up slightly. Touch harsh on Youngs (going by Goode as a benchmark), its only the lineout hes struggled with other aspects of his game are very strong.

Care...put him in cotton wool...and make sure his Duracel batteries are taken out when he's resting. He's the cog.............

Has Youngs looked as good when hes play though. I half the time hes been injured or recovering. Has he really played for England when In a rich vein of injury free rugby? Anyway...maybe your right Peter, maybe they're now looking to open it up.

If I see more evidence against Ireland, then I will take back the criticism I have shown following the France and Scotland game. We'l not get so may chances against them as we did v Scotland, and Ill be watching how we go about taking those chances with great interest.

Looking at the wider squad the most pleasing thing I think is that many parts of the 23 are beginning to pick themselves. With players yet to return from injury hopefully that will allow the EPS to develop nicely as well. At full strength I'd say the few big debates in the EPS should actually be positive ones.

Prop - Corbs (a big if but put him there anyway), Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson - Still need more depth at TH but still strong options

Hooker - Hartley, Youngs, Webber - Youngs needs to translate his Tigers/Lions line-out work to England jersey but still good depth

Second row - Lawes, Launchbury + two of Attwood, Parling, Slater, Kitchener - Pretty pleasing choices to have, especially with Kruis, Stooke etc also coming through

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft + one of Haskell, Garvey, Kvesic, Fraser - Probably one of the bigger areas of debate with people arguing what we need for the side etc. The named players are as I'd view it and they are options I wouldn't complain much about in the long run.

Number 8 - Vunipola, Morgan - Two really strong front runners. Hopefully Ewers can add some more depth as well.

Scrum half - Care, Dickson, Youngs - People can debate who should be on the bench but as a trio I'd say they are still our top 3. Hoping Robson can kick on though as he has a strong all round game.

Fly half - Farrell, Ford, Burns - Add in Slade/Cipriani and the options have real potential if they are lacking experience.

Centre - Tuilagi, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt - Would love to see someone like Eastmond, Trinder or Daly given a look on the NZ tour for a different option but can't see it happening just now. Still also feel that if we want a solid EPS centre in the mix to take pressure off others when necessary (seemingly Barritt's current role) then Allen has the all round game to be worth a shot.

Wing - Wade, May, Yarde, Nowell - All four are already good players with lots of potential to get even better.

Full back - Brown, Foden + one of Goode, Watson, Tait? - Brown is playing terrifically as was Foden before injury. Goode is seen by many to be lacking pace but Watson and Tait as alternatives certainly wouldn't be!

As said a few areas of debate but IMO mostly positive ones. Despite what looks like improvements in recent games my view of the squad still comes back to needing more depth at TH, more precision/spark in the backs and arguably more pace in the back row (though the latter is less worrying than former two points).

Looking back to last season we do seem to be solving two of the most worrying points though with more forwards carrying the ball effectively and finally some pace in the back three again.

I have a feeling its a year too early for Watson. Tait would be (as usual) ideal bench material if he wasnt broken as often as Warburton.

I do think Daly should be there on the bench. I know it was only an exhibition match but he did a number on the Lions for the Barbarians if I remember right, and does seem to be ready now.

Dickson just doesnt do the things we need at the moment. That is a tough one, but going from what I have read here I am not the only one who thought we might well have lost it when he came on. I dont know what the alternatives are bit I think we had best forget about Youngs this season. I think he is fantastic when on form but that is not now.

Please please please can Care keep his form up? For England and Quins? It'll be really frustrating if he has a great 6N then a dip, once again leaving us with 2 9s we know can play great rugby but no way of telling which one to pick!

(Ps, I think he will. He's had a chance to gel now and he's being allowed to play a bit of his own game, and that changes him from a liability to a danger for the opposition)

This is a terrific thread.  And we could go on forever debating each position.  So in the interest of brevity, I have only a few points at the moment.  Starting with the front row, for now.  

Corbs:  Despite improvements with other players, Corbs is (or hopefully still is post-injury) England's best prop.  The front row combination with a healthy Cole is the best chance of England dominating up front.  His medical team is committed to ensuring he has a full recovery so we might see what a truly healthy Corbs can do.  

Cole:  He needs rest.  Full stop.  Terrific player but looks shot, at least by his standards.

Other Props:  The injury to Corbs and bringing Cole off early is giving a great chance to develop the next group of props.  And we are certainly seeing Marler improving by leaps and bounds.  Vunipola could really develop into something special by this time next season.  Very good for England.  

Hookers;  Hartley is playing as good as any hooker in the world at the moment.  Tough carries, good tackles, rucks hit with vigour, making his throws.  Yungs has been talked to death.  Needs to be pulled aside quickly and hopefully fixed because he can be very good.  Dropped now?  probably the right decision, but not out.  We need to find out if Webber can hack it at this level.  And if not him, then who?

doctor_grey wrote:
Cole:  He needs rest.  Full stop.  Terrific player but looks shot, at least by his standards.

Agree with that 100% doc. Especially as a Tigers fan. If fit he should definitely finish the 6N but needs a rest over the summer. Wilson being injured isn't helping this issue though and only exaggerates our need to develop more depth at TH.

Cole and Farrell I'd have in the definitely rest bracket for the summer at the moment. If taken they will have played pretty much two years of non-stop rugby with the full season here followed by a Lions tour and NZ tour. Simply asking for burnout in the lead up to the world cup.

Other players may need resting as well (we will know closer to the time) but at the moment those are the only two I wouldn't tour NZ with. Other Lions such as Tuilagi, Parling, the Youngs brothers, etc will have had time out with injury or aren't starting at current so hopefully wont be at the same risk.

To protect the other players a bit and have a look at others I'd rather just take a big squad and rotate players as needed. That way if someone is looking burnt out we can rest them and give someone else a chance to shine.

Looking ahead to the world cup, its a 30 man squad and based on previous team selections the average squad breakdown has been:

3 Hookers
4 Props
4 Second Rows
4 Flankers
2 Number 8's
3 Scrum Halves
2 Stand Offs
3 Centres
3 Wings
2 Full Backs

Thinking about it this way, its surprising how many can be filled in.

3 Hookers: Hartley, Webber, Youngs
4 Props: Cole, Wilson, Corbisiero (if fit) and one of Marler and Vunipola, or both if Corbs isn't fit
4 Second Rows: Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood and one of Parling, Slater and Kitchener (for me Kitchener
4 Flankers: Robshaw, Wood........
2 Number 8's: Vunipola and Morgan
3 Scrum Halves: Care, Youngs and Dickson? (Not my third choice)
2 Stand Offs: Farrell and Ford (people will undoubtedly point to burns but for me this is a no brainer. Ford needs to continue his development.
3 Centres: Twelvetrees at 12, Tuilagi at 13 and Burrell covering both
3 Wings: Yarde, May and Wade if fit, nowell as injury cover?
2 Full Backs: Brown and Foden

The biggest question marks for me though are on the flanks. How would you guys look at filling the other 2 spare flank slots? Would you look to guys who could come in and replicate the style of play that Wood and Robshaw offer thus keeping the same balance in the pack, i.e. someone like Clark? Or would you look at going for more size at 6 i.e. a Haskell or a Garvey?
An out and out fetcher in Kvesic, Wallace? Or the more non traditional option of Croft?

With the WC less than 2 years away I can't see England not wanting Farrell to experience the NZ tour. And given TH is probably the problem position in English rugby it would be very brave to leave Cole out.

DaveM wrote:With the WC less than 2 years away I can't see England not wanting Farrell to experience the NZ tour. And given TH is probably the problem position in English rugby it would be very brave to leave Cole out.

It'd be brave, but also characteristic of Lancaster. I could see him taking Wilson, Thomas and one other - maybe Collier, if he shakes off his injury and continues to improve - and throwing them in at the deep end. He needs a second TH who can step in for Cole, and he needs a fresh Cole. Not much option, really.

Croft may never fully recover from his neck injury, Haskell has been dropped off the radar by Lancaster and his form shot. Yhe nearest thing to reserve flankers are kvesic and johnson, that has to be a concern along with backup fly half.
Otherwise england do quite unusually have something close to a squad of obvious choices, even if its desperately short on experience and subject to roller coaster form selections.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Croft may never fully recover from his neck injury, Haskell has been dropped off the radar by Lancaster and his form shot. Yhe nearest thing to reserve flankers are kvesic and johnson, that has to be a concern along with backup fly half.
Otherwise england do quite unusually have something close to a squad of obvious choices, even if its desperately short on experience and subject to roller coaster form selections.

Knee injury this time rather than the neck I believe PSW? Whilst both injuries are nasty he seemed to have returned well from the neck injury last season and I remember reading a report last month from Cockerill stating he was recovering so well from the knee injury he could even be back early April. The lack of news since then may point to him being out for the season as first feared though.

Haskell being off the radar is odd to me as I believe he still has plenty to offer - a differing option to Croft or Wood when needed certainly. His versatility would also be very useful for Lancaster given he's building a squad towards the RWC.

Kvesic may be in poor form but is still a good player and with Wallace playing well and Fraser to return there are options to be seen for back up 7's even if they are inexperienced.

Johnson I'm torn with as I rate him highly but feel with Wood and Croft already capable of fulfilling a similar role to a higher standard we may be better off bringing someone Garvey or Fearns through. I know it's been said to death on these boards but I really want to know what the deal is with Garvey and Lancaster. He should be a perfect fit for this pack as he's powerful, has a tough edge, very physical and has a huge work rate.

I would disagree with Cole and Lawes slightly.

Cole at the moment is only playing at about 60% he's doing just enough but his turn over count is way down, tackling is poor and I can not remember one carry that has crossed the gainline. In the scrum he's just about holding his own. Cole can't really be blamed too much though as he's being played in to the ground at the moment. A small injury could be the best thing for him.

Lawes has shone this season. Across the pitch he's making key impacts and controling himself well. My only issue is the lineout. Yes the success rate is high but a high proportion of the ball off the lineout isn't clean, it's often palmed down or dropped to Care who then has to clean it up. Yes we're not losing the ball but often it's not useable straight off the top. Likewise setting up our maul has been poor and England have looked ropey here as we often splinter or let defenders get amongst us too easily.

Just small things but they will be key in the next few weeks.

jamesandimac wrote:

11.  May - Obviously we've not seen a lot of him yet, 1 run in the France game and then the second half of the Scotland game aside, although what I have seen I'm quite impressed.  He does have a tendency to go against the grain an crab back in field which against the stronger teams could cause problems, however it did go in his favour against Scotland.  I do think he should've finished his 1 on 1 against Hogg, after 36's pass, as I think someone like Savia or North would've done, however hes still quite inexperienced and needs to have the opportunity to show that he's learned from that.   6.5

To be fair, if you watch it again he steps past Hogg and slips on the ridiculous pitch. This gives a Scottish lump the time to clatter him down.

Any other pitch and he'd have gone over. Looking forward to seeing him on the hallowed turf of Twickers.

king_carlos wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Croft may never fully recover from his neck injury, Haskell has been dropped off the radar by Lancaster and his form shot. Yhe nearest thing to reserve flankers are kvesic and johnson, that has to be a concern along with backup fly half.
Otherwise england do quite unusually have something close to a squad of obvious choices, even if its desperately short on experience and subject to roller coaster form selections.

Knee injury this time rather than the neck I believe PSW? Whilst both injuries are nasty he seemed to have returned well from the neck injury last season and I remember reading a report last month from Cockerill stating he was recovering so well from the knee injury he could even be back early April. The lack of news since then may point to him being out for the season as first feared though.

Haskell being off the radar is odd to me as I believe he still has plenty to offer - a differing option to Croft or Wood when needed certainly. His versatility would also be very useful for Lancaster given he's building a squad towards the RWC.

Kvesic may be in poor form but is still a good player and with Wallace playing well and Fraser to return there are options to be seen for back up 7's even if they are inexperienced.

Johnson I'm torn with as I rate him highly but feel with Wood and Croft already capable of fulfilling a similar role to a higher standard we may be better off bringing someone Garvey or Fearns through. I know it's been said to death on these boards but I really want to know what the deal is with Garvey and Lancaster. He should be a perfect fit for this pack as he's powerful, has a tough edge, very physical and has a huge work rate.

I would hope Lancaster went with Wood, Robshaw, Haskall and one of Fraser or Fearns for the WC squad. Kvesic is just in terrible form at the moment and while I rate Wallace highly I just don't think his style is what we need with Vunipola at 8, especially if he was replacing the master grafter Robshaw. Fearns and Hask both get through a lot of work and are very physical, both cover the entire backrow as well. Fraser looked before injury like the best 7 in the prem and a lot more physical then the others.

I'm going to disagree with you on Nowell. The "he's only 20" excuse doesn't wash at all. He's been picked for international duty and he must front for it. Yet another unspectacular grafting English placeholder of a back. Guys need to come in when they're young and add x-factor, like a Dagg, a Piutau, a ranger, a Lomu, a Savea, a Smith, a howlett, a Cullen, a Wilson, not making a catalog of schoolboy errors, lacking composure, struggling for positional awareness, making poor choices, handling errors and giving away penalties. He's there to add pizazz, cutting edge, individual game breaking brilliance, not be workman-like and "satisfactory". You've way over billed him. Perhaps a consequence of the ordinary alternatives.

Topsy Ojo was the role model for a debutant winger. For every mistake he did two things brilliantly.

He's been fine after the first 20 min of the France game GE. Seeing as you didn't watch the Scotland game not sure you'll be able to give a valid comment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's been fine after the first 20 min of the France game GE. Seeing as you didn't watch the Scotland game not sure you'll be able to give a valid comment.

I think making judgements on wing play against the might of Scotland, whos's forwards were steam-rolled is a bit daft. He will be an utter liability against quality opposition. He needs to be discarded immediately before he does so.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's been fine after the first 20 min of the France game GE. Seeing as you didn't watch the Scotland game not sure you'll be able to give a valid comment.

I think making judgements on wing play against the might of Scotland, whos's forwards were steam-rolled is a bit daft. He will be an utter liability against quality opposition. He needs to be discarded immediately before he does so.

Fortunately we only play Wales and South Africa every so often so he'll be fine thanks.

Too conservative a selection altogether. Ashton out of form is preferable.

He's as out of form as you though GE!

I'd agree on Nowell, I've been extremely underwhelmed. Hopefully Wade/Yarde will be back soon or Ashton brought back in.

"Pretty much agree with the ratings all round. Possibly bump May up slightly. Touch harsh on Youngs (going by Goode as a benchmark), its only the lineout hes struggled with other aspects of his game are very strong."

Youngs has been awful in the line out. As this is one of his primary duties I wouldn't give him anything past a 4/10, he needs to be dropped tbh.

I like him Sgt, looking for work, making breaks making his tackles. Looks to be learning quickly.

Youngs on the other hand needs to up his game, that's if he's lucky enough to get another chance.

Surely in Daly and young Nick Tompkins we have two potential top class 13's. We HAVE to get either of those in there over the next season.

And those saying we are lacking flankers...Garvey will NEVER play for England under Lancs. As a total "out there" shout, what about our Mark Wilson. Or is he too Phil Dowson like...ie classy club player maybe not for the next level?

I would agree with the ratings so far. As far as the overall picture goes, the squad in general does seem to be pretty much set.

In terms of the second row, for me the sooner we can get Kitchener in the squad the better, he has been immense this season and it's unfortunate he picked up the injury against Ulster. Bit harsh on Parling who has done nothing wrong but Kitchener just has another dimension to his game for me.

As for centres, we have to remember that Manu is still only 22. However, it would be nice to see a young player come through who is a different style to him and can pose a slightly different type of threat.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely in Daly and young Nick Tompkins we have two potential top class 13's. We HAVE to get either of those in there over the next season.

Tompkins has only just started playing for the u20s. Given the other options I'd have thought he'd be 3 or 4 years from the senior side. Daly is a classy player, and if he settles at 13 next season for Wasps then he'll be giving himself a chance. However, Burrell and Tuilagi won't be easy to displace.

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Topsy Ojo was the role model for a debutant winger. For every mistake he did two things brilliantly.

He got into a lot of trouble fr one of those though

I see Burrell moving back to 12 once Manu comes back so Daly would have more of a chance. A combo of Burrell and Manu would be interesting to see at some point. Not sure how Burrell is on organising a defence though.

Dave,

Agree Tompkins would be a bit away, but im sure he has played Sarries first team games already (probably in the LV's) but he just looks so composed, creative and also has the physical aspects aswell.

Daly looks sheer class whenever i see him.

As for the rest who is there?

Joseph not impressing much? Lowe is a sicknote? Burrell i agree has looked very impressive, but is a 12 really. Banahan? Eastmond is a 12. Any others?

Trinder

Has Trinder really impressed that much? Or is he similar to Joseph?

Trinders been on the verge of a call up since Lancaster took over and has only missed out through injury. It doesnt make him exactly an established star though, nor to be honest are England massively in need of another OC with Tuillagi established and Burrell looking good to date.

I think for the 6 nations the starting 15 looks good... I would probably put Yarde for Nowell when he is fit... I think Nowell is a good prospect but needs a year or 2 more experience.
However it is the bench that is the problem and would change the following;

Webber for Youngs
Ford for Goode
Watson for Barritt
Youngs for Dickson..

I think if changes are not made to the bench England could lose against Ireland in the last quarter of the match..

Peter,

Do you see Burrells future for England at 13?

Peter

I would say Burrell will move back to 12 once Manu is fit

GloriousEmpire wrote:Too conservative a selection altogether. Ashton out of form is preferable.

Too conservative, picking a 20 year old?

You've taken a totally irrational dislike to him, and no doubt you'll still be slagging him off in two years time even if he gets MoM in the World Cup Final.

Nowell has been outstanding through age group rugby, has played well for Exeter, notably in the HC, and has actually had a good start to his international career, apart from a couple of mistakes in an England side that was all over the place in the opening 20 minutes in Paris. I didn't expect our wingers to touch the ball at Murryfield but he was prominent and effective, setting up a try.

England are lucky to have 4 very talented young wingers (5 if you count Watson as a wig rather than FB). Nowell will have to fight to stay in there, but I think he'll succeed.

I thought Nowell has looked decent, more than just a grafter and nice contrast to May on the other wing.

I'm glad he covers that hair do up though!

Not sure you can read too much into the Scotland game – the pitch & conditions were awful, Scotland were awfuler. And we lost to France.

However 12T proved he can play OK against Scotland. And TY told Stewiee in no uncertain terms that he’s not good enough. The wingers showed some promise but are too green yet to know if they are good enough to win anything (and it’s a worry that we have a back 3 comprising 2 shiny new boys). And Burrell has added some bosh and some nice lines and doesn’t look out of place - but he’s short of real pace and will be up against one of the greats. IMO if we were to face NZ or SA we’d currently be spanked.

Personally I’d keep the ball away from our backs for the moment and let our pack do the work - they are good.

DaveM wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Too conservative a selection altogether. Ashton out of form is preferable.

Too conservative, picking a 20 year old?

You've taken a totally irrational dislike to him, and no doubt you'll still be slagging him off in two years time even if he gets MoM in the World Cup Final.

Nowell has been outstanding through age group rugby, has played well for Exeter, notably in the HC, and has actually had a good start to his international career, apart from a couple of mistakes in an England side that was all over the place in the opening 20 minutes in Paris. I didn't expect our wingers to touch the ball at Murryfield but he was prominent and effective, setting up a try.

England are lucky to have 4 very talented young wingers (5 if you count Watson as a wig rather than FB). Nowell will have to fight to stay in there, but I think he'll succeed.

I think the last time GE laid into an English player and said they were overrated it was Mike Brown just before the AIs, so thanks GE for ensuring Nowell has a stormer of a 6N!

Nowell has impressed me actually. He's gone looking for work, been physical and his break set up Browns try v Scotland. He's shown far more than Ashton has at this level for quite a while.

Althought to be fair to Ashton, the backs have actually tried to pass the ball this 6n unlike the previous couple.

I thnk SL has identified Twelvetrees as the 12 for the next WC, and I think he's right to do so. Burrell has said he doesn't see himself as more of a 12 than a 13. Adding to the wing options I've thought for ages SL wants to give Tuilagi a run on the wing so it's possible that Burrell is he long-term solution at 13. It'll be interesting to watch.

Tompkins is an outstanding prospect, there is no doubt about that. Stephenson is also very exciting.

I've liked Trinder for years, but I don't think he's quite got the ex-factor to nail down the international position. I saw that SCW thinks May should play 13.

Compared to a few years back things look really healthy in the centres. But this is true of most positions.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not sure you can read too much into the Scotland game – the pitch & conditions were awful, Scotland were awfuler. And we lost to France.

However 12T proved he can play OK against Scotland. And TY told Stewiee in no uncertain terms that he’s not good enough. The wingers showed some promise but are too green yet to know if they are good enough to win anything (and it’s a worry that we have a back 3 comprising 2 shiny new boys). And Burrell has added some bosh and some nice lines and doesn’t look out of place - but he’s short of real pace and will be up against one of the greats. IMO if we were to face NZ or SA we’d currently be spanked.

Personally I’d keep the ball away from our backs for the moment and let our pack do the work - they are good.

Now is exactly the time to have two shiny new wingers. England have loads of talent, and the only way to gain experience is to play. This tournament, the NZ tour and the AIs are the only real chances to try layers out for the WC (by the next 6 Nations I expect us to be playing most of the WC starting XV). If we only try one young winger at a time we'll run our of games.

And we've recently played NZ, without a spanking.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nowell has impressed me actually. He's gone looking for work, been physical and his break set up Browns try v Scotland. He's shown far more than Ashton has at this level for quite a while.

Althought to be fair to Ashton, the backs have actually tried to pass the ball this 6n unlike the previous couple.

Well if Ashton had tried to pass to Brown like Nowell did it would probably have gone straight out.

I thought Nowell was going to be too young and inexperienced. He proved me wrong. I think he is going to get better and better very quickly

I didnt think Vunipola would surpass Morgan and I didnt know someone so big could actually look nimble. (That time when he actually jumped in the air to take a Scottish kick -it just looked wrong but somehow it did work)

I also didnt think that Care would actually be able to bring his club game to the England set up successfully. Sometimes its good to get things wrong.

As for Burrell I dont know how quick he is, but speed over the ground isnt an issue when you face the 2014 version of BOD

Barney, Burrell has made to breaks running great lines, but then has showed considerable speed to finish off the tries. Dont think he's lacking too much, considering hes 17st or what ever he is.

If been very vocal about us being more efficient (that doesnt mean flashy)...ie taking our chances. And i still say we need to be far better in this regards. Hopefully these new kids can start and produce that.