England Squad Assessment After 2 Rounds

First topic message reminder :

I don't post on here that often as I generally don't get the time to commit to in depth discussions, however I thought that since I had a spare 30 mins I would jot down some of my thoughts on the England squads performances in the opening 2 rounds.

1. Marler - is developing nicely and is finally bringing his loose play to the international stage. Carried and defended well in the opening 2 games and his scrummaging is improving all the time, which is impressive considering his age. 7

2. Hartley - Imperious in the lineout over the opening 2 rounds. I may even go so far as to say the form hooker in the tournament. 8.5

3. Cole - No other options here at present, however his performances have been of a high standard in the opening games. Despite him suffering at scrum time against the French, something which was rectified against Scotland, his loose play has been of his usual high standards. 7

4. Launchbury - Ever improving, always understated, Mr Consistent. Offers a nice balance with Lawes and the rest of the back 5. 7

5. Lawes - This season has seen Lawes' most assured performances in an England shirt. His performance levels have grown consistently throughout the year, something which is no doubt down to his injury free run, and his lineout calling has been exemplary (when Hartley's been on the pitch). 8.5

6. Wood - Doesn't do the flash stuff like some of the other forwards, but that's not what he's there for. He grafts so that others can do the blockbuster runs or the big hits. Along with Robshaw, one of my favourite players. 7

7. Robshaw - I don't care that people don't see him as a 7, or that he isn't good enough for international rugby. I think he is the most underrated player on the international stage, consistently one of the highest tacklers, always in support of breaks, always willing to do the hard yards and always the first one down on a scrappy ball. 7.5

8. B. Vunipola - England are in a fortunate position in that they now have 2 big powerful 8's whose sole purpose it is to cause havoc. Out of the 2, Morgan does possess great speed however Billy's ball handling, allied with his work rate and sheer size mean he possesses the greater potential. Have really been impressed with how he has grown over his 5 caps this season and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he goes against the 2 Lions 8's over the coming weeks. 8.5

9. Care - Has been in a rich vein of form for a long time but has never fully realised that at international level, despite the odd glimpse. Now we're finally seeing his potential and this is partly down to the platform he is being provided by his pack. Really deserves to continue in the 9 shirt and I hope the B Youngs steps up to challenge him. Does need to continue to work on his box kicking though. 8

10. Farrell - I've never been a big fan of Farrell Jr, particularly his annoying habit of acting like a footballer on occasion, however I will hold my hand up and say that he is one of the most improved international players this season and think he is exactly what England need right now in that shirt. Long term Ford will challenge him, but he is a winner and that will only drive him on to improve. Still a long way to go mind, but he's doing really well. 8

11. May - Obviously we've not seen a lot of him yet, 1 run in the France game and then the second half of the Scotland game aside, although what I have seen I'm quite impressed. He does have a tendency to go against the grain an crab back in field which against the stronger teams could cause problems, however it did go in his favour against Scotland. I do think he should've finished his 1 on 1 against Hogg, after 36's pass, as I think someone like Savia or North would've done, however hes still quite inexperienced and needs to have the opportunity to show that he's learned from that. 6.5

12. Twelvetrees - Some people say he's overrated, some would say he's not gone well for England this season. Personally I think he went well in the Autumn, despite not getting too many chances to shine, and despite that now infamous missed tackle has been very strong in cleaning up a lot of scrappy ball for England, whether that be loose ball or taking the hard drive when needed. 6Ns wise though, I've been impressed with how he's worked alongside Burrell and think there is a nice balance to the 3/4 line. We're finally getting to see his distribution skills and he shows that he can go through a gap as well. 7

13. Burrell - For someone who is new to the international scene, Burrell has made quite an assured start. Part of a solid midfield, defensively he hasn't been shown up, despite him playing out of position! Also attacking wise he offers exactly what England want from their 13 which is gain line presence. Also 2 trys in 2 games isn't bad either. 7

14. Nowell - He's performed exactly how you would expect a 20 year old who has been backed by his national coach over someone vastly more experienced and in, arguably, better domestic form. He's made mistakes but has had the confidence to immediately shrug them off and then do something positive, beat defenders one on one, carry out an effective kick chase whereby he takes the ball and makes good yards for the team. Yes he's young, yes he will continue to make mistakes, however with each game that goes by his confidence and experience will grow and his error rate will decrease. For his one on one ability alone I would keep him in the side over Ashton. 6.5

15. Brown - He may not be as glamorous as a Halfpenny or a Dagg, but he is exceptional fullback who does the basics well and hardly ever makes a mistake, which is exactly what you want at 15 in international rugby. Finally getting the opportunity this season ahead of Goode and Foden, he has nailed the shirt as his own and long may he keep it.

Subs:

16. T. Youngs - He is a conundrum, both for the English fans as much for the coaches. I would liken him to T Croft in that he would split opinion, he's not a conventional hooker and doesn't necessarily do this basics of hooking well but offers something extra around the pack that other players in his position don't. He works best with his Leicester partnerships around him, i.e. Croft and Parling, although I would argue that neither would get in the England starting line up when fit and I wouldn't consider them a viable bench option either when you consider we have currently Attwood and Morgan taking up them slots. For me he has to go and we need to find someone else who can do the basics right, we can't afford to keep handing good field position over whenever he comes on. Personally I would look to Webber to take the 16 slot, and then develop the Attwood partnership from the bench. 4

17. M Vunipola - Has gone well from the bench so far despite only getting brief cameos. Offers a huge amount around the field, particularly in his ball carrying although his scrimmaging does require work, and this is why Marler is ahead of him. 6.5

18. Thomas - Haven't really seen enough of him at so far so it is difficult to comment. I fully expect that as soon as Wilson is fit he'll take this slot. I see him as a stop gap until some of the young pretenders develop further. ?

19. Attwood - Again not seen a lot of game time, and would like him to get a start against Italy. From what I have seen though, has slotted into the England pack seamlessly when he's arrived, and certainly offers that physical presence around the fringes. Would like to se him make this slot his own over Parling and then challenge Lawes and Launchbury from there. 6.5

20. Morgan - A great impact sub and really does continue the carrying when Vunipola goes off. I must say though that it doesn't offer a great amount of flexibility on the bench should Wood or Robshaw get injuried. For me England have no fully pinned their colours to the mast of physicality and work rate and to that end I would, should Morgan not fill this slot, we need to look at Haskell covering here or even (heaven forbid) Clark. I don't see Kvesic as anywhere near good enough at present to warrant this place but for now Morgan does the job nicely. 7

21. Dickson - I can completely understand why he got a chance in the Autumn and again why he is on the bench now, as he's one of the form 9's and keeps the Saints moving on nicely at a good tempo. That said, despite him performing reasonably well, for me he's not international quality, especially when you compare him to someone like Genia or Parra. I think the time has come for Youngs to come back into the squad, if anything just to give him some confidence. He has by far the better potential of the 2, and needs to be put under pressure to force him to realise it. 5.5

22. Goode - A good, intelligent player, whose very good at reading a game and has very good positioning as a fullback. That said, he's pretty slow for an international 15 and the way Huget beat him one on one was unacceptable. When you compare him with the current incumbent, Brown is ahead by some way. Also viewing him as a stand in 10, I don't think he has the mental attributes to play there, partly because he doesn't do it day in day out. For me its a waste of a bench slot, as a 15 he doesn't offer enough cover in the back 3 and as a 10 he isn't good enough. I think Ford must be trusted with the 10 cover from the bench from now on, if anything just to ease him into international rugby 10 mins at a time. Also it will take pressure off Farrell as he knows he won't have to play the full 80 mins of every single game. 5.5

23. Barritt - What is there to say. He's a solid operator at 12. Whilst he won't give you the runs of a Tuilagi or the creativity of a Twelvetrees he will offer a solid all round package to complement his never say die attitude in defence. Is he good enough to play international rugby? Yes. Is he good enough to start for England at 12 or 13? No. And that's the problem, the centres of 36 and Burrell, or 36 and Tuilagi (I appreciate they haven't played at this level) offer a nice balance to them. Barritt throws that balance out. Then we come to the bench slot. What flexibility does Barritt offer on the bench, he only covers centre? Also what game changing impact will he offer, or in the case of B. Vunipola/Morgan, will he continue to offer? For me you need to look at the 23 covering the back three at least. To that end, out of the current squad maybe look to Watson coming in here, he can at least offer wing/fullback cover whilst cover for the centres can be provided be Farrell or even May if things were that bad. 5

Overall: Not a bad start for England. Despite the France result the performances have been very encouraging and a marked improvement since last year. Tactically, England have been spot on in how they want to approach the game with only the silly mistakes at the start of the French game (and the subs later on) letting them down. For me, continuity is the key for the coming home fixtures and therefore I would go for the same starting 15. On the bench I would like to see Wilson return if fit, Webber over Youngs and a completely new set of backs replacements, Youngs, Ford and Watson.

Again these are just my thoughts and are not in anyway meant to antagonise anyone else.

Wilson is starting this weekend so hopefully he'll come through alright and can bench against Ireland, then perhaps start against one of the other sides...

England look pretty solid over the park and considering the important injuries they are having its an excellent testament to the great work that Lancaster has done in stabilising and building of the England team.

Danny Care's return has really been a bright spark to the side, quick ball, darting runs and his organising of the backline has been outstanding. Take him out of the side and I think that England will struggle as Farrell is not a backline organising 10.

May and Nowell have been excellent, I especially admire the work rate of both. A few errors but that's to be expected early on in International careers but they have both shown more than enough to deserve their starting positions.

I really think England are taking too much comfort in their performance against a disastrous scottish side…..i think ireland will exploit this and show them where they really are. It will be close but the Irish have their tails up and nosebags on.

Scratch wrote:I really think England are taking too much comfort in their performance against a disastrous scottish side…..i think ireland will exploit this and show them where they really are. It will be close but the Irish have their tails up and nosebags on.

Really? What's your source?

England fans may be taking some heart from having beaten Scotland (away and in atrocious conditions) by a similar margin to that with which Ireland beat Scotland (at home and in much better conditions), but nothing I have seen from the England camp itself suggests over confidence.

Poorfour wrote:

Scratch wrote:I really think England are taking too much comfort in their performance against a disastrous scottish side…..i think ireland will exploit this and show them where they really are. It will be close but the Irish have their tails up and nosebags on.

Really? What's your source?

England fans may be taking some heart from having beaten Scotland (away and in atrocious conditions) by a similar margin to that with which Ireland beat Scotland (at home and in much better conditions), but nothing I have seen from the England camp itself suggests over confidence.

my source? what you talking about?

its my opinion, this is a forum.

I think he meant what makes you think England are taking comfort from beating a poor Scotland side?

I've seen nothing to suggest this, the opposite in fact with SL claiming we misses too many chances.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think he meant what makes you think England are taking comfort from beating a poor Scotland side?

I've seen nothing to suggest this, the opposite in fact with SL claiming we misses too many chances.

And Stewie was right when he said England missed too many chances. It is the lack of finishing which worries me.

Opinions can be invalid and wrong, just saying

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think he meant what makes you think England are taking comfort from beating a poor Scotland side?

I've seen nothing to suggest this, the opposite in fact with SL claiming we misses too many chances.

And Stewie was right when he said England missed too many chances.  It is the lack of finishing which worries me.  

I hope they forget to finish the game against us too - like wrap it up with 20 minutes left on the clock.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Opinions can be invalid and wrong, just saying

opinions can't be wrong unless we are debating known facts….e.g. Wales have won 4 6 Nations championships since 2005. Debating the future outcome of a competition can, for patently obvious reasons, not be done on a factual basis, QED opinions expressed therein cannot be wrong or invalid.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think he meant what makes you think England are taking comfort from beating a poor Scotland side?

I've seen nothing to suggest this, the opposite in fact with SL claiming we misses too many chances.

Did you read the OP?

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Opinions can be invalid and wrong, just saying

opinions can't be wrong unless we are debating known facts….e.g. Wales have won 4 6 Nations championships since 2005. Debating the future outcome of a competition can, for patently obvious reasons, not be done on a factual basis, QED opinions expressed therein cannot be wrong or invalid.

Well, te opinion can be wrong. If one's belief of what would come to pass does not, then it is proven wrong in retrospect...

On something purely subjective, for which a definitive answer can never be proven, you can argue that opinions can't be wrong. However even then they could be, the fact that we never find the truth doesn't mean there is not one. And if we accepted everyone's opinion equally, there would be no such thing as an expert consultant.

Whether people, assuming they aren't putting on a show of bravado and bluster as I admit I have, were being too confident of England's results or not will be vindicated by what the results are and the manner of them

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Opinions can be invalid and wrong, just saying

opinions can't be wrong unless we are debating known facts….e.g. Wales have won 4 6 Nations championships since 2005. Debating the future outcome of a competition can, for patently obvious reasons, not be done on a factual basis, QED opinions expressed therein cannot be wrong or invalid.

Well, te opinion can be wrong. If one's belief of what would come to pass does not, then it is proven wrong in retrospect…

Feel free to cash in on that one if and when you are proven right.   

On something purely subjective, for which a definitive answer can never be proven, you can argue that opinions can't be wrong.

Not if the subjective belief does not come to pass then it is proven wrong in retrospect.

However even then they could be, the fact that we never find the truth doesn't mean there is not one.

I work in the courts, i have seen 'experts' from various fields, each with contrary arguments and completely compelling. You will find in life that each person has their truth and for every 'expert' you truck out one can find one with contrary evidence

And if we accepted everyone's opinion equally, there would be no such thing as an expert consultant.

Utter tosh.

Whether people, assuming they aren't putting on a show of bravado and bluster as I admit I have, were being too confident of England's results or not will be vindicated by what the results are and the manner of them

True. But we weren't debating vindication, we were discussing the veracity of an opinion.

The veracity of an opinion is determined after the events over which the opinion is held in this case. Validity would be another matter

You think everyone's opinion is equally worthwhile, Scratch? I commend you on managing that. I cannot.

Very impressed with Eastmond today, he showed some real touches of class and showed his rugby inteligence to see the space to attack to score his try.

Can Eastmond kick well out of hand? I know he can goal kick...

Scratch,

When Poorfour asked "Really, what's your source?", he was just asking "On what basis do you say that?" or, even more simply, "Why do you think that?"

I saw his question as an invitation for you to elaborate, albeit that he's phrased it like he's primed for an immediate rebuttal.

When you reply "It's just my opinion", then the conversation stops dead. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but you did sound like you had a reason to write what you did. Even saying "It's just a feeling I've got" would be more enlightening.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Can Eastmond kick well out of hand? I know he can goal kick...

Yes, though its not a part of his game he generally chooses to use. Far more often he will either pass or run and then pass, he tries not to go to ground with the ball and only occasionally will kick.

I take your point in that international competition rugby requires a quality all round, including kicking, game. Eastmond is quality.

It's just with defensive kicking not being one of Danny's strengths, ideally it would be good to have the 12 able to kick to help Farrell in certain situations. Brown and Nowell can kick ok too, an Care's box kicking was better last week but if Eastmond can kick then bench time or even a start vs Italy could be good

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's just with defensive kicking not being one of Danny's strengths, ideally it would be good to have the 12 able to kick to help Farrell in certain situations. Brown and Nowell can kick ok too, an Care's box kicking was better last week but if Eastmond can kick then bench time or even a start vs Italy could be good

Agreed. Benchwise he also offers cover at wing and fullback, and yes I would very much like to see (would have liked to have SEEN) SL taking the opportunity to try options. Leaving it all till NZ is a mistake as by then everyone is knackered and just fronting up is an achievement.

I'm quite happy about England's 6Ns showing so far. There's been new blood being tested and a whole campaign to evaluate them. Plus injured players who will come back into the reckoning before the AIs. Cole and to a lesser extent B Youngs need some R&R and the summer off though (NZ is no place to rediscover their form) - or at worst a Saxons' tour.

With this year's fixtures, even with the currently available players, I can't see England coming lower (or higher) than second again.

But this time next year we'll be millionaires...

Ford was great again today. I'd be very surprised if we don't see him used in some way this 6N.

Ford's a little gem. It will be good to see how he sparkles when he's cut and polished.

You are right, 7½, he needs blooding as a starter this campaign. Against Wales, if we beat the Irish? Bench and play him against the Irish though. We must have a 10 on the bench though.

SL has rolled the dice twice now on not having a spare 10 and been luckyish (Farrell was only cramping, but needed replacing) but that's enough.

I can see why he had the bench he had given the relatively inexperienced starters but we should see Ford and Watson I think.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ford was great again today. I'd be very surprised if we don't see him used in some way this 6N.

As Dallaglio said during commentary, he really didn't show any thing different today. If Lancaster does now include him in a match day squad, we'll be left wondering why it didn't happen before. There aren't that many games left before the World Cup.

You get the impression Bomber is hoping to pull together all these loose ends on tour. After all, Martin Johnson's squad only really started taking shape in summer 2010 with that win over Australia.

Two things come immediately to mind if that's his thinking. Johnson's team had a miserable World Cup, and New Zealand is a fairly unforgiving tour destination. The last Englishman to enhance his reputation after a series of matches in the land of the long white cloud was probably Ben Clarke in 1993.

Luke narraway also came away from a new Zealand tour in 2008 looking like a future star but the Gloucester curse struck him as well. This far out from a world cup we all know ford needs experience but ultimately however much talent he has he is a) too inexperienced at international level to peak by 2015 and b) too wobbly a goal kicker at present to be am England starter (I watch him most weeks so can testify ) I would either say we have 4 options...hope Farrell can play every minute of a whole world cup without getting tired or injured.....give ford ALOT of games between now and rwc2015...persuade hodgson out of retirement or Finally use the exception for flood.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ford was great again today. I'd be very surprised if we don't see him used in some way this 6N.

As Dallaglio said during commentary, he really didn't show any thing different today. If Lancaster does now include him in a match day squad, we'll be left wondering why it didn't happen before. There aren't that many games left before the World Cup.

You get the impression Bomber is hoping to pull together all these loose ends on tour. After all, Martin Johnson's squad only really started taking shape in summer 2010 with that win over Australia.

Two things come immediately to mind if that's his thinking. Johnson's team had a miserable World Cup, and New Zealand is a fairly unforgiving tour destination. The last Englishman to enhance his reputation after a series of matches in the land of the long white cloud was probably Ben Clarke in 1993.

Well I can understand that lancaster wanted an experienced midfielder in case something went wrong and the same with a full back if Brown was injured. Safety first, which I think we can move past now.

Tom Rees did well on the last one and would have gone on but for injury to be very good.

ChequeredJersey wrote:You think everyone's opinion is equally worthwhile, Scratch? I commend you on managing that. I cannot.

Depends on it's presentation, but yea, everyone's opinion is worth listening to, that's how we learn

That's not quite what I said