England Squad Assessment After 2 Rounds

First topic message reminder :

I don't post on here that often as I generally don't get the time to commit to in depth discussions, however I thought that since I had a spare 30 mins I would jot down some of my thoughts on the England squads performances in the opening 2 rounds.

1. Marler - is developing nicely and is finally bringing his loose play to the international stage. Carried and defended well in the opening 2 games and his scrummaging is improving all the time, which is impressive considering his age. 7

2. Hartley - Imperious in the lineout over the opening 2 rounds. I may even go so far as to say the form hooker in the tournament. 8.5

3. Cole - No other options here at present, however his performances have been of a high standard in the opening games. Despite him suffering at scrum time against the French, something which was rectified against Scotland, his loose play has been of his usual high standards. 7

4. Launchbury - Ever improving, always understated, Mr Consistent. Offers a nice balance with Lawes and the rest of the back 5. 7

5. Lawes - This season has seen Lawes' most assured performances in an England shirt. His performance levels have grown consistently throughout the year, something which is no doubt down to his injury free run, and his lineout calling has been exemplary (when Hartley's been on the pitch). 8.5

6. Wood - Doesn't do the flash stuff like some of the other forwards, but that's not what he's there for. He grafts so that others can do the blockbuster runs or the big hits. Along with Robshaw, one of my favourite players. 7

7. Robshaw - I don't care that people don't see him as a 7, or that he isn't good enough for international rugby. I think he is the most underrated player on the international stage, consistently one of the highest tacklers, always in support of breaks, always willing to do the hard yards and always the first one down on a scrappy ball. 7.5

8. B. Vunipola - England are in a fortunate position in that they now have 2 big powerful 8's whose sole purpose it is to cause havoc. Out of the 2, Morgan does possess great speed however Billy's ball handling, allied with his work rate and sheer size mean he possesses the greater potential. Have really been impressed with how he has grown over his 5 caps this season and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he goes against the 2 Lions 8's over the coming weeks. 8.5

9. Care - Has been in a rich vein of form for a long time but has never fully realised that at international level, despite the odd glimpse. Now we're finally seeing his potential and this is partly down to the platform he is being provided by his pack. Really deserves to continue in the 9 shirt and I hope the B Youngs steps up to challenge him. Does need to continue to work on his box kicking though. 8

10. Farrell - I've never been a big fan of Farrell Jr, particularly his annoying habit of acting like a footballer on occasion, however I will hold my hand up and say that he is one of the most improved international players this season and think he is exactly what England need right now in that shirt. Long term Ford will challenge him, but he is a winner and that will only drive him on to improve. Still a long way to go mind, but he's doing really well. 8

11. May - Obviously we've not seen a lot of him yet, 1 run in the France game and then the second half of the Scotland game aside, although what I have seen I'm quite impressed. He does have a tendency to go against the grain an crab back in field which against the stronger teams could cause problems, however it did go in his favour against Scotland. I do think he should've finished his 1 on 1 against Hogg, after 36's pass, as I think someone like Savia or North would've done, however hes still quite inexperienced and needs to have the opportunity to show that he's learned from that. 6.5

12. Twelvetrees - Some people say he's overrated, some would say he's not gone well for England this season. Personally I think he went well in the Autumn, despite not getting too many chances to shine, and despite that now infamous missed tackle has been very strong in cleaning up a lot of scrappy ball for England, whether that be loose ball or taking the hard drive when needed. 6Ns wise though, I've been impressed with how he's worked alongside Burrell and think there is a nice balance to the 3/4 line. We're finally getting to see his distribution skills and he shows that he can go through a gap as well. 7

13. Burrell - For someone who is new to the international scene, Burrell has made quite an assured start. Part of a solid midfield, defensively he hasn't been shown up, despite him playing out of position! Also attacking wise he offers exactly what England want from their 13 which is gain line presence. Also 2 trys in 2 games isn't bad either. 7

14. Nowell - He's performed exactly how you would expect a 20 year old who has been backed by his national coach over someone vastly more experienced and in, arguably, better domestic form. He's made mistakes but has had the confidence to immediately shrug them off and then do something positive, beat defenders one on one, carry out an effective kick chase whereby he takes the ball and makes good yards for the team. Yes he's young, yes he will continue to make mistakes, however with each game that goes by his confidence and experience will grow and his error rate will decrease. For his one on one ability alone I would keep him in the side over Ashton. 6.5

15. Brown - He may not be as glamorous as a Halfpenny or a Dagg, but he is exceptional fullback who does the basics well and hardly ever makes a mistake, which is exactly what you want at 15 in international rugby. Finally getting the opportunity this season ahead of Goode and Foden, he has nailed the shirt as his own and long may he keep it.

Subs:

16. T. Youngs - He is a conundrum, both for the English fans as much for the coaches. I would liken him to T Croft in that he would split opinion, he's not a conventional hooker and doesn't necessarily do this basics of hooking well but offers something extra around the pack that other players in his position don't. He works best with his Leicester partnerships around him, i.e. Croft and Parling, although I would argue that neither would get in the England starting line up when fit and I wouldn't consider them a viable bench option either when you consider we have currently Attwood and Morgan taking up them slots. For me he has to go and we need to find someone else who can do the basics right, we can't afford to keep handing good field position over whenever he comes on. Personally I would look to Webber to take the 16 slot, and then develop the Attwood partnership from the bench. 4

17. M Vunipola - Has gone well from the bench so far despite only getting brief cameos. Offers a huge amount around the field, particularly in his ball carrying although his scrimmaging does require work, and this is why Marler is ahead of him. 6.5

18. Thomas - Haven't really seen enough of him at so far so it is difficult to comment. I fully expect that as soon as Wilson is fit he'll take this slot. I see him as a stop gap until some of the young pretenders develop further. ?

19. Attwood - Again not seen a lot of game time, and would like him to get a start against Italy. From what I have seen though, has slotted into the England pack seamlessly when he's arrived, and certainly offers that physical presence around the fringes. Would like to se him make this slot his own over Parling and then challenge Lawes and Launchbury from there. 6.5

20. Morgan - A great impact sub and really does continue the carrying when Vunipola goes off. I must say though that it doesn't offer a great amount of flexibility on the bench should Wood or Robshaw get injuried. For me England have no fully pinned their colours to the mast of physicality and work rate and to that end I would, should Morgan not fill this slot, we need to look at Haskell covering here or even (heaven forbid) Clark. I don't see Kvesic as anywhere near good enough at present to warrant this place but for now Morgan does the job nicely. 7

21. Dickson - I can completely understand why he got a chance in the Autumn and again why he is on the bench now, as he's one of the form 9's and keeps the Saints moving on nicely at a good tempo. That said, despite him performing reasonably well, for me he's not international quality, especially when you compare him to someone like Genia or Parra. I think the time has come for Youngs to come back into the squad, if anything just to give him some confidence. He has by far the better potential of the 2, and needs to be put under pressure to force him to realise it. 5.5

22. Goode - A good, intelligent player, whose very good at reading a game and has very good positioning as a fullback. That said, he's pretty slow for an international 15 and the way Huget beat him one on one was unacceptable. When you compare him with the current incumbent, Brown is ahead by some way. Also viewing him as a stand in 10, I don't think he has the mental attributes to play there, partly because he doesn't do it day in day out. For me its a waste of a bench slot, as a 15 he doesn't offer enough cover in the back 3 and as a 10 he isn't good enough. I think Ford must be trusted with the 10 cover from the bench from now on, if anything just to ease him into international rugby 10 mins at a time. Also it will take pressure off Farrell as he knows he won't have to play the full 80 mins of every single game. 5.5

23. Barritt - What is there to say. He's a solid operator at 12. Whilst he won't give you the runs of a Tuilagi or the creativity of a Twelvetrees he will offer a solid all round package to complement his never say die attitude in defence. Is he good enough to play international rugby? Yes. Is he good enough to start for England at 12 or 13? No. And that's the problem, the centres of 36 and Burrell, or 36 and Tuilagi (I appreciate they haven't played at this level) offer a nice balance to them. Barritt throws that balance out. Then we come to the bench slot. What flexibility does Barritt offer on the bench, he only covers centre? Also what game changing impact will he offer, or in the case of B. Vunipola/Morgan, will he continue to offer? For me you need to look at the 23 covering the back three at least. To that end, out of the current squad maybe look to Watson coming in here, he can at least offer wing/fullback cover whilst cover for the centres can be provided be Farrell or even May if things were that bad. 5

Overall: Not a bad start for England. Despite the France result the performances have been very encouraging and a marked improvement since last year. Tactically, England have been spot on in how they want to approach the game with only the silly mistakes at the start of the French game (and the subs later on) letting them down. For me, continuity is the key for the coming home fixtures and therefore I would go for the same starting 15. On the bench I would like to see Wilson return if fit, Webber over Youngs and a completely new set of backs replacements, Youngs, Ford and Watson.

Again these are just my thoughts and are not in anyway meant to antagonise anyone else.

You also have to remember that 36 only agreed to play for England if he was guaranteed the 12 shirt.

How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

Didn't he play for England in SA around 2008, where he looked short of international class (and pace)? However he's kept working on his game and to his immense credit he's nailed on at 15 and a top class operator.

DaveM wrote:Didn't he play for England in SA around 2008, where he looked short of international class (and pace)? However he's kept working on his game and to his immense credit he's nailed on at 15 and a top class operator.

He did, although in his defence then he was a not as complete player, was definitley slower and was also heavily ill at the time...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9306553/England-full-back-Mike-Brown-determined-to-find-redemption-against-South-Africa-after-debut-nightmare.html

I love Mike's interviews

Of course he was ill this weekend as well, just less so

bluestonevedder wrote:36 threw one lovely pass to May against Scotland in the second half. It was 3 on 3, but his pass skipped out Burrell I think and put may into space after cutting open the Scottish defence. May should have finished it off really, but an excellent tackle by Dunbar stopped him from doing so.

I've also been impressed with 36's carrying, especially against Scotland. He carries with aggression and seemed to get over the gain line most times he carried. His defence was fine as well- everyone still holds that one missed tackle against Australia against him, even though he's actually a solid defender.

Still, with the rest of the 6 Nations likely to see him continue at 12, he has a lot more to prove he's the long term answer.

Agree that was a lovely pass and the sort of simple work by a centre to release a winger that we haven't seen from an England 12/13 for a long time. By no means do I think Twelvetrees has nailed down the spot indefinitely but so far in this 6N he has shown the same sort of physicality and reliability in defence and breakdown work that Barritt did plus has the talent to offer much more elsewhere.

We have also looked to use his long kicking game a bit more to clear our lines which is pleasing to see. Whilst Care and Farrell have both played well in the last two games they still have a tendency to kick far too long under pressure (as most our half backs seem to). Having a player with Twelvetrees punt at 12 allows an option to relieve some of the pressure from our half backs.

Looking at the rest of the 6N I'd definitely keep Twelvetrees and Burrell together if injury permits. Looking on to the NZ tour we'll hopefully see Tuilagi return alongside those two plus I think we really need to give one or two of Eastmond, Daly and Trinder a chance to show what a quicker and nimbler centre could offer.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace. My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

Perhaps we should all give 36 a little longer before we consign him to the bin? After all Greenwood was in and out of the England side for a few years before he finally got a proper run. Not everyone can be like Aaron Crudon or Savea and take to Int rugby in their first cap.

As to Brown, he's a regular MoM player for England, Man of the Series last AI's and has now scored in his last two games. He's a rock under the high ball, good in defense and the attacking side of things is coming along nicely. I don't see how people can't rate him.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

Say what?!   You know we're talking about Mike Brown not Kelly Brown right?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

Holy Christ!

He'll be saying Lawes doesn't tackle hard enough next.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'll be saying Lawes doesn't tackle hard enough next.

Do you think Lawes has reigned in his tackling a little bit...ie not constantly looking for the big hit...and its made him more effective in that area?

He's generally upped his game in all areas. Not even been stripped by a centre this year.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'll be saying Lawes doesn't tackle hard enough next.

Do you think Lawes has reigned in his tackling a little bit...ie not constantly looking for the big hit...and its made him more effective in that area?

That nightmare performance last year when he was at 6 was full of failed attempts at massive hits. I am sure if its on hes going to go for it but not tackling quite so hard but missing fewer has to be a smarter strategy

I think hes generally been a good defender, wouldnt doubt that, but i just think often he went for the big hit and missed and left a huge hole in the defensive line.

Now, yes if its clearly on he'll make it...but he just doesnt seem to be going for it everytime. And that is a much smarter strategy.

Id agree that he's also upped every department of his game...his lineout is looking very good and his carrying has improved massively.

He is finally fulfilling his potential and what a weapon that is for England.

Lawes breakthrough performance was for Saints vs Munster a few years back. I believe he got some very complementary remarks about his performance that day from a certain very well respected Irish 2nd row.

Mike Brown, not good under the high ball? I've heard it all now

What's next, Kieran Read is only a half decent number 8? Bismarck Du Plessis isn't very good at playing hooker? Devin Toner isn't tall?

BamBam wrote:Mike Brown, not good under the high ball? I've heard it all now

Ah, but don't forget that GE has a back-up argument that involves England players 'illegally blocking' which obviously makes it easier for him and eventually they will be found out and penalised within an inch of their lives and everything will be ok in GE-land again blah, blah blah, mumble, dribble...

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think hes generally been a good defender, wouldnt doubt that, but i just think often he went for the big hit and missed and left a huge hole in the defensive line.

Now, yes if its clearly on he'll make it...but he just doesnt seem to be going for it everytime. And that is a much smarter strategy.

Id agree that he's also upped every department of his game...his lineout is looking very good and his carrying has improved massively.

He is finally fulfilling his potential and what a weapon that is for England.

And he's only 24 and has 26 caps already, happy days   

I sort of get GE in that having lived in Wales for a few years and not being happy there at all it did (does) colour my view of most things Welsh.

(I did make an effort to appreciate some things there. For instance, on the two days each year when its warm and not raining the beaches can be fantastic.)

I can only recommend to GE that he does what I did and move. Much happier up in the cold NW.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

Just reading GE's post again, I've worked it out lads, it wasn't just him being critical of all things English as usual and being a WUM, he was actually talking about Gordon Brown.

Not great aerial skills (Gordon is blind in one eye GE, be fair) has a shield in front of him (Miliband), lacks genuine pace (certainly old Gordy doesn't look the quickest), gone from hero to villain (well yes), similar to Ashton (Tony Blair) before him.

Brown finds it particularly easy to step Smith (nz) that'll do for me Tommy.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

I rate him as an international class player. He has a good attitude and good all round skills. Like most England backs he doesnt have much xfactor though. I have heard a number of people say he is the best FB in the NH now and pick him for their team of the week etc. IMO Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg are all better players because they all like Brown do the basics well and have all round skills but each of them are also outstanding at something:

Kearney: Fielding and under the high ball.
Halfpenny: goal kicking and catching.
Hogg: counter attack and offloading.

Not sure Brown is outstanding at anything yet? I also contest that his defense and positioning isnt quite as good as the above three probably because he lacks experience.

Well Germs everyone is entitled to their opinion...even when your opinion is completely wrong...

Halfpenny: goal kicking and catching.

Erm?? In what regards...catching the cold?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Germs everyone is entitled to their opinion...even when your opinion is completely wrong...

What part am I wrong on? Are you angry? I usually get called germs rather than guns when someone is wound up. Just an observation.

1/2p was recently nominated world player of the year. Part of the reason was because his catching is first class but probably most notably for his lazer like goal kicking. He hasnt become a bad player overnight but Wales have been a little flat.

Brown is a bit like a few others of the England side: Struggling with being newbies in their positions. Until you've been there for a good run of games people won't rate you. The recognition took a while for some England fans; it'll come to the rest.

I'd throw Brown in the mix with those 3, perhaps Halfpenny a step above due to his goal kicking (is he actually that good a FB?)

Brown is certainly as good if not better than Kearney who hasn't quite looked as good as he did in 2008/9.

The only attribute Kearney perhaps trumps him is in the air but it's marginal. I'd say Brown counter attacks better and is certainly stronger in the tackle.

No guns sorry not wound up or angry at all.

Just getting fed up of this site.

Many England players arent the finished article yet i have stated myself...very few if any are World Class...

But regarding Mike Brown...he is a top quality FB.  Is he the best in the NH...maybe in some eyes, maybe not in others, but to say he has no outstanding parts to his game is a little incorrect.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd throw Brown in the mix with those 3, perhaps Halfpenny a step above due to his goal kicking (is he actually that good a FB?)

Brown is certainly as good if not better than Kearney who hasn't quite looked as good as he did in 2008/9.

The only attribute Kearney perhaps trumps him is in the air but it's marginal. I'd say Brown counter attacks better and is certainly stronger in the tackle.

Brown has been defensively a bit of a liability. For France's first try both 1/2 and Kearney would have taken the bounce out of it and fielded the kick a lot better. Brown just stood and watched Huget run past.

He was also out of position for Fickou's try, so was Goode who made a complete mess of it but they were both to blame IMO.

Brown may be marginally better at counter attacking but Kearney is no mug in attack as he showed with a nice try v Scotland.

GeordieFalcon wrote:No guns sorry not wound up or angry at all.

Just getting fed up of this site.

Many England players arent the finished article yet i have stated myself...very few if any are World Class...

But regarding Mike Brown...he is a top quality FB.  Is he the best in the NH...maybe in some eyes, maybe not in others, but to say he has no outstanding parts to his game is a little incorrect.

Ok well I dont see it yet. What do you think he does better than any other FB in the NH?

Brown is international class no doubt and is also unquestionably England's best FB since Foden has fallen by the wayside.

BamBam wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

Just reading GE's post again, I've worked it out lads, it wasn't just him being critical of all things English as usual and being a WUM, he was actually talking about Gordon Brown.

Not great aerial skills (Gordon is blind in one eye GE, be fair) has a shield in front of him (Miliband), lacks genuine pace (certainly old Gordy doesn't look the quickest), gone from hero to villain (well yes), similar to Ashton (Tony Blair) before him.

    

Makes sense now.

Don't worry Geordiefalcon. GunsGerms just dislikes English full backs. If it's any consolation he criticises Goode an awful lot more. To be fair some of it is justifiable.

Rob Kearney can do no wrong. Halfpenny is a Welsh deity, Hogg is the finest full back to ever play for Scotland and is a better 10 than anyone bar Sexton. Brown is not fit to lace their boots.

You are not allowed to rate Brown.

"He was also out of position for Fickou's try, so was Goode who made a complete mess of it but they were both to blame IMO."

Brown was playing left wing, the attack came down the right wing.....how was this Brown?

You're exaggerating beshocked. All four of them have weaknesses. You can rate Brown all you want, your perogative.

Lets not forget that he isnt exactly a newby in the England team. He has over 20 caps yet he is only starting to make the position his now. As I see it there are still things to work on, most notably positioning.

He seems to have gotten a little bigger(stronger) since the last campaign. That fair to say?

Well actually if you watch the try again you can see about 4 England players too bunched up which allows France to miss them out. I think it's Launchbury who should be further to the right.

Personally I think it's Launchbury's fault.

Which leaves a 3 on 1 with Burrell then after Schwarzewski beats Burrell it's a two on 1 on Goode. Perhaps Goode should have smashed Fickou though but he would be open for the winning pass to the supporting French man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25971746

4:15.

For the 2nd try either Nowell or Goode should have pounced on the ball - they both got in each other's way.

I have no idea what the actual stats say but wouldnt be surprised if, pound for pound, Brown is one of the strongest players in the England team. He does lack outright pace but it seems less of an issue playing at fullback than it did last year on the wing. He does seem to make good decisions about what to do and when to join the line.

He is so very very reliable. His biggest strength seems to be that he is so hard to put down. You know when he does run the ball back that whatever happens he will make enough time for team mates to get to him and recycle the ball. As the commentators in the game last Saturday said the opposition often make the mistake of trying to take him high and just getting bounced off.

I dont know where we will be in a year's time. Maybe Foden will have got his form back and be using his pace to attack from deep. Maybe Watson will be ready and ripping things up too. But in the meantime Brown is doing everything he could possibly be expected to to keep the shirt, and is one of our most consistent players

GunsGerms wrote:You're exaggerating beshocked. All four of them have weaknesses. You can rate Brown all you want, your perogative.

Lets not forget that he isnt exactly a newby in the England team. He has over 20 caps yet he is only starting to make the position his now. As I see it there are still things to work on, most notably positioning.

He seems to have gotten a little bigger(stronger) since the last campaign. That fair to say?

I said newby as he was versatile enough to cover wing (or so Lancaster thought last 6Ns). He was always first choice at full back but was a needs must choice with the team in mind. He's not significantly improved he was and is very good. Newby because this is the first run of games i suspect a lot of fans (other than Englands) have watched him in.

Don't worry Geordiefalcon. GunsGerms just dislikes English full backs. If it's any consolation he criticises Goode an awful lot more. To be fair some of it is justifiable.

Ah Beshocked, its just this site mate. I veer off now and a gain as we all do, but in general i try to be openminded and not base opinions on national or club bias.
 
Sometimes i just cant be f*84ed with all the constant wumming and general sh$te slung about at each other. My players better than your feckin player...we've got better younger players coming through...theyre only feckin 6 year old though!! blah blah blah

Examples...

Mike Brown is criticised for pace etc. yet no one ackowledges hes worked damn hard with Margot Wells to increase that pace, and that some of his early caps were when he wasnt the player he is now. he has worked on his game.

Then we have O'Mahoney. Last couple of seasons not the best player...but hes probably worked hard on his game and its very possible that he is an integral part of the irish lineup now. Yet all the other one eyed nations fans dont look for the improvment just see a "rubbish" player.

It would be really nice for once to see a few threads where the likes of GE just fecked off and the other people just held their hands up and said hey you know what ...that lad from Wales or England or feckin Vietnam for all i care is one hell of a player now and has really improved as a player.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

I rate him as an international class player. He has a good attitude and good all round skills. Like most England backs he doesnt have much xfactor though. I have heard a number of people say he is the best FB in the NH now and pick him for their team of the week etc. IMO Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg are all better players because they all like Brown do the basics well and have all round skills but each of them are also outstanding at something:

Kearney: Fielding and under the high ball. - Brown is as good as anybody under the high ball, attacks better than Kearney and is reserve goal kicker.
Halfpenny: goal kicking and catching. Goal kicking god, offers little else these days, Brown better in attack. Don't need a goal kicking full back have Farrell so not applicable in a comparison
Hogg: counter attack and offloading. Can't catch as well, gets caught out of position, can be flustered under the high ball.

Not sure Brown is outstanding at anything yet? I also contest that his defense and positioning isnt quite as good as the above three probably because he lacks experience.

There was a post about Dan Carter a while back, people kept pointing out where other 10s did things better than Carter. The response was that some people might do some things better, but nobody does everything as well as DC, they all have other weaknesses. For DC read Mike Brown. The most rounded of 15s.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
There was a post about Dan Carter a while back, people kept pointing out where other 10s did things better than Carter. The response was that some people might do some things better, but nobody does everything as well as DC, they all have other weaknesses. For DC read Mike Brown. The most rounded of 15s.

So you think his strength is in his ability to do everything well? Fair response.

beshocked wrote:Well actually if you watch the try again you can see about 4 England players too bunched up which allows France to miss them out. I think it's Launchbury who should be further to the right.

Personally I think it's Launchbury's fault.

Which leaves a 3 on 1 with Burrell then after Schwarzewski beats Burrell it's a two on 1 on Goode. Perhaps Goode should have smashed Fickou though but he would be open for the winning pass to the supporting French man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25971746

4:15.

For the 2nd try either Nowell or Goode should have pounced on the ball - they both got in each other's way.

Hmm I disagree, is it a second row's fault that he didn't tackle a centre down the wing when he's been on the pitch for 80mins when Barritt is stood inside Joe? Surely Barritt should have been pushing out beyond Launchbury as he is quicker, fresher and as a centre should be stood wider?

I will also admit I really rate Launchbury and am leaping to his defence ala knight in shining armour, do not besmirch his name lightly!!

Barritt's the defensive organiser of the England and much stronger in this respect than everyone else. If he wanted launchbury there it's because he was the best man for the job.

GunsGerms wrote:
He was also out of position for Fickou's try, so was Goode who made a complete mess of it but they were both to blame IMO.

I'm confused by this. Brown was playing left wing at the time so I'm not sure how a try down our right wing can be blamed on his positioning? He missed a tackle a couple of phases before, but it was Farrell's man on the inside and Brown just didn't adjust in time to make someone else's tackle for them. He was marking the outside man.

In any case, he was playing wing at the time, so I don't see what that's got to do with his defensive positoning as a full back.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:How does everyone rate Mike Brown? I'm Quins fan so im slightly biased. Hes been great over the last 4 months for England and im very happy for him.

Everyone except Guns (Irish) and GE (presumably Kiwi) rates him highly, because they've watched him play

He's not bad. But I just don't get the hysteria around him. Competent whilst not spectacular is how I see him. I'm not sure he's a full back really. His aerial skills lack a little (at the moment I think England are illegally impeding chasers by forming a shield in front of him) and he lacks genuine pace.  My feeling is he's in his best form ever and at that level he's a reasonable option. I get the feeling though that in a few months there will be a clamour for him to be replaced, similar to Ashton before him. Another hero to villain affair.

I rate him as an international class player. He has a good attitude and good all round skills. Like most England backs he doesnt have much xfactor though. I have heard a number of people say he is the best FB in the NH now and pick him for their team of the week etc. IMO Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg are all better players because they all like Brown do the basics well and have all round skills but each of them are also outstanding at something:

Kearney: Fielding and under the high ball.
Halfpenny: goal kicking and catching.
Hogg: counter attack and offloading.

Not sure Brown is outstanding at anything yet? I also contest that his defense and positioning isnt quite as good as the above three probably because he lacks experience.

HP is not a better FB because he can goal kick.
Hogg is just not as good in any area apart from pace but then if u look at the stats of defenders beaten, clean breaks and metres then Brown beats all other FBs........................................... hes topping every stat nearly or is in the top 3 for 6N

To be fair to Kearney he played well on a Lions tour 5 years ago when the first choice full back was injured.

Hogg is certainly a better attacker than Brown. I dont have the stats but Im guessing he has made more meters and beaten more defenders than any FB so far. He is very difficult to tackle and he even steamrolled POM v Ireland. He was top offloader in that match if I remember right.

Cyril wrote:To be fair to Kearney he played well on a Lions tour 5 years ago when the first choice full back was injured.

Who was the first choice?

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:To be fair to Kearney he played well on a Lions tour 5 years ago when the first choice full back was injured.

Who was the first choice?

Mike Brown.

Sorry Lee Byrne.