England Squad Assessment After 2 Rounds

First topic message reminder :

I don't post on here that often as I generally don't get the time to commit to in depth discussions, however I thought that since I had a spare 30 mins I would jot down some of my thoughts on the England squads performances in the opening 2 rounds.

1. Marler - is developing nicely and is finally bringing his loose play to the international stage. Carried and defended well in the opening 2 games and his scrummaging is improving all the time, which is impressive considering his age. 7

2. Hartley - Imperious in the lineout over the opening 2 rounds. I may even go so far as to say the form hooker in the tournament. 8.5

3. Cole - No other options here at present, however his performances have been of a high standard in the opening games. Despite him suffering at scrum time against the French, something which was rectified against Scotland, his loose play has been of his usual high standards. 7

4. Launchbury - Ever improving, always understated, Mr Consistent. Offers a nice balance with Lawes and the rest of the back 5. 7

5. Lawes - This season has seen Lawes' most assured performances in an England shirt. His performance levels have grown consistently throughout the year, something which is no doubt down to his injury free run, and his lineout calling has been exemplary (when Hartley's been on the pitch). 8.5

6. Wood - Doesn't do the flash stuff like some of the other forwards, but that's not what he's there for. He grafts so that others can do the blockbuster runs or the big hits. Along with Robshaw, one of my favourite players. 7

7. Robshaw - I don't care that people don't see him as a 7, or that he isn't good enough for international rugby. I think he is the most underrated player on the international stage, consistently one of the highest tacklers, always in support of breaks, always willing to do the hard yards and always the first one down on a scrappy ball. 7.5

8. B. Vunipola - England are in a fortunate position in that they now have 2 big powerful 8's whose sole purpose it is to cause havoc. Out of the 2, Morgan does possess great speed however Billy's ball handling, allied with his work rate and sheer size mean he possesses the greater potential. Have really been impressed with how he has grown over his 5 caps this season and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he goes against the 2 Lions 8's over the coming weeks. 8.5

9. Care - Has been in a rich vein of form for a long time but has never fully realised that at international level, despite the odd glimpse. Now we're finally seeing his potential and this is partly down to the platform he is being provided by his pack. Really deserves to continue in the 9 shirt and I hope the B Youngs steps up to challenge him. Does need to continue to work on his box kicking though. 8

10. Farrell - I've never been a big fan of Farrell Jr, particularly his annoying habit of acting like a footballer on occasion, however I will hold my hand up and say that he is one of the most improved international players this season and think he is exactly what England need right now in that shirt. Long term Ford will challenge him, but he is a winner and that will only drive him on to improve. Still a long way to go mind, but he's doing really well. 8

11. May - Obviously we've not seen a lot of him yet, 1 run in the France game and then the second half of the Scotland game aside, although what I have seen I'm quite impressed. He does have a tendency to go against the grain an crab back in field which against the stronger teams could cause problems, however it did go in his favour against Scotland. I do think he should've finished his 1 on 1 against Hogg, after 36's pass, as I think someone like Savia or North would've done, however hes still quite inexperienced and needs to have the opportunity to show that he's learned from that. 6.5

12. Twelvetrees - Some people say he's overrated, some would say he's not gone well for England this season. Personally I think he went well in the Autumn, despite not getting too many chances to shine, and despite that now infamous missed tackle has been very strong in cleaning up a lot of scrappy ball for England, whether that be loose ball or taking the hard drive when needed. 6Ns wise though, I've been impressed with how he's worked alongside Burrell and think there is a nice balance to the 3/4 line. We're finally getting to see his distribution skills and he shows that he can go through a gap as well. 7

13. Burrell - For someone who is new to the international scene, Burrell has made quite an assured start. Part of a solid midfield, defensively he hasn't been shown up, despite him playing out of position! Also attacking wise he offers exactly what England want from their 13 which is gain line presence. Also 2 trys in 2 games isn't bad either. 7

14. Nowell - He's performed exactly how you would expect a 20 year old who has been backed by his national coach over someone vastly more experienced and in, arguably, better domestic form. He's made mistakes but has had the confidence to immediately shrug them off and then do something positive, beat defenders one on one, carry out an effective kick chase whereby he takes the ball and makes good yards for the team. Yes he's young, yes he will continue to make mistakes, however with each game that goes by his confidence and experience will grow and his error rate will decrease. For his one on one ability alone I would keep him in the side over Ashton. 6.5

15. Brown - He may not be as glamorous as a Halfpenny or a Dagg, but he is exceptional fullback who does the basics well and hardly ever makes a mistake, which is exactly what you want at 15 in international rugby. Finally getting the opportunity this season ahead of Goode and Foden, he has nailed the shirt as his own and long may he keep it.

Subs:

16. T. Youngs - He is a conundrum, both for the English fans as much for the coaches. I would liken him to T Croft in that he would split opinion, he's not a conventional hooker and doesn't necessarily do this basics of hooking well but offers something extra around the pack that other players in his position don't. He works best with his Leicester partnerships around him, i.e. Croft and Parling, although I would argue that neither would get in the England starting line up when fit and I wouldn't consider them a viable bench option either when you consider we have currently Attwood and Morgan taking up them slots. For me he has to go and we need to find someone else who can do the basics right, we can't afford to keep handing good field position over whenever he comes on. Personally I would look to Webber to take the 16 slot, and then develop the Attwood partnership from the bench. 4

17. M Vunipola - Has gone well from the bench so far despite only getting brief cameos. Offers a huge amount around the field, particularly in his ball carrying although his scrimmaging does require work, and this is why Marler is ahead of him. 6.5

18. Thomas - Haven't really seen enough of him at so far so it is difficult to comment. I fully expect that as soon as Wilson is fit he'll take this slot. I see him as a stop gap until some of the young pretenders develop further. ?

19. Attwood - Again not seen a lot of game time, and would like him to get a start against Italy. From what I have seen though, has slotted into the England pack seamlessly when he's arrived, and certainly offers that physical presence around the fringes. Would like to se him make this slot his own over Parling and then challenge Lawes and Launchbury from there. 6.5

20. Morgan - A great impact sub and really does continue the carrying when Vunipola goes off. I must say though that it doesn't offer a great amount of flexibility on the bench should Wood or Robshaw get injuried. For me England have no fully pinned their colours to the mast of physicality and work rate and to that end I would, should Morgan not fill this slot, we need to look at Haskell covering here or even (heaven forbid) Clark. I don't see Kvesic as anywhere near good enough at present to warrant this place but for now Morgan does the job nicely. 7

21. Dickson - I can completely understand why he got a chance in the Autumn and again why he is on the bench now, as he's one of the form 9's and keeps the Saints moving on nicely at a good tempo. That said, despite him performing reasonably well, for me he's not international quality, especially when you compare him to someone like Genia or Parra. I think the time has come for Youngs to come back into the squad, if anything just to give him some confidence. He has by far the better potential of the 2, and needs to be put under pressure to force him to realise it. 5.5

22. Goode - A good, intelligent player, whose very good at reading a game and has very good positioning as a fullback. That said, he's pretty slow for an international 15 and the way Huget beat him one on one was unacceptable. When you compare him with the current incumbent, Brown is ahead by some way. Also viewing him as a stand in 10, I don't think he has the mental attributes to play there, partly because he doesn't do it day in day out. For me its a waste of a bench slot, as a 15 he doesn't offer enough cover in the back 3 and as a 10 he isn't good enough. I think Ford must be trusted with the 10 cover from the bench from now on, if anything just to ease him into international rugby 10 mins at a time. Also it will take pressure off Farrell as he knows he won't have to play the full 80 mins of every single game. 5.5

23. Barritt - What is there to say. He's a solid operator at 12. Whilst he won't give you the runs of a Tuilagi or the creativity of a Twelvetrees he will offer a solid all round package to complement his never say die attitude in defence. Is he good enough to play international rugby? Yes. Is he good enough to start for England at 12 or 13? No. And that's the problem, the centres of 36 and Burrell, or 36 and Tuilagi (I appreciate they haven't played at this level) offer a nice balance to them. Barritt throws that balance out. Then we come to the bench slot. What flexibility does Barritt offer on the bench, he only covers centre? Also what game changing impact will he offer, or in the case of B. Vunipola/Morgan, will he continue to offer? For me you need to look at the 23 covering the back three at least. To that end, out of the current squad maybe look to Watson coming in here, he can at least offer wing/fullback cover whilst cover for the centres can be provided be Farrell or even May if things were that bad. 5

Overall: Not a bad start for England. Despite the France result the performances have been very encouraging and a marked improvement since last year. Tactically, England have been spot on in how they want to approach the game with only the silly mistakes at the start of the French game (and the subs later on) letting them down. For me, continuity is the key for the coming home fixtures and therefore I would go for the same starting 15. On the bench I would like to see Wilson return if fit, Webber over Youngs and a completely new set of backs replacements, Youngs, Ford and Watson.

Again these are just my thoughts and are not in anyway meant to antagonise anyone else.

I also didnt think that Care would actually be able to bring his club game to the England set up successfully. Sometimes its good to get things wrong.

We were saying the same about Hartley for many a year, but that appears to be happening aswell...

As for Burrell I dont know how quick he is, but speed over the ground isnt an issue when you face the 2014 version of BOD

Its also not an issue when you look at the lines and support play he has been giving. Its a basic skill in rugby but we've been poor at it....well aside from Ashton.

But this is more to do with a much improved effort of carrying from our forwards and Billy in particular.

Wow geordiefalcon. Even though I am a big supporter of Nick Tompkins let's not rush him too quickly. I see him as a bit like George Ford. Plenty of potential there but needs game time and needs to develop naturally. Tompkins is only 18/19 - physically I don't think he's there yet even though you can see the promise, he's looked good when I have seen him.


https://www.rfu.com/news/2014/february/news-articles/070214_england20s_sco_report


For the England tries

17.24

20.45

34 minute.

1.10

1.18.55

1.27.17

Can't get the last one but it's near the end.

Tompkins is involved in 3 of the first 4 tries.

England U20s looks promising.


As for Daly, if he is not playing for Wasps at 13 he cannot be considered for England as a 13.

beshocked wrote:Wow geordiefalcon. Even though I am a big supporter of Nick Tompkins let's not rush him too quickly. I see him as a bit like George Ford. Plenty of potential there but needs game time and needs to develop naturally. Tompkins is only 18/19 - physically I don't think he's there yet even though you can see the promise, he's looked good when I have seen him.


https://www.rfu.com/news/2014/february/news-articles/070214_england20s_sco_report


For the England tries

17.24

20.45

34 minute.

1.10

1.18.55

1.27.17

Can't get the last one but it's near the end.

Tompkins is involved in 3 of the first 4 tries.

England U20s looks promising.


As for Daly, if he is not playing for Wasps at 13 he cannot be considered for England as a 13.

Hopefully Miller (and Masi) at wasps at 15 next season and Daly at 13...

Think Daly can be considered for 13. He's played there for the Saxons and Burrell is obviously playing there while playing 12 for his club.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I also didnt think that Care would actually be able to bring his club game to the England set up successfully. Sometimes its good to get things wrong.

We were saying the same about Hartley for many a year, but that appears to be happening aswell...

As for Burrell I dont know how quick he is, but speed over the ground isnt an issue when you face the 2014 version of BOD

Its also not an issue when you look at the lines and support play he has been giving. Its a basic skill in rugby but we've been poor at it....well aside from Ashton.

But this is more to do with a much improved effort of carrying from our forwards and Billy in particular.

Well it mattered when he was in for his 2nd try and got run down a couple of metres out (looked like he was running through thick mud - oh wait a minute...). I like one pacey centre tbh - it matters less if we have pace outside him though.

killer938 wrote:Peter

I would say Burrell will move back to 12 once Manu is fit

You wont see a starting 12/13 of Burrell Tuilagi unless they change tack. England want one kicker/passer and one runner.

Ah im not Beshocked.....Tuilagi and Daly should be the options for the moment. Its just nice to see us provducing these players with skills and the physicality to go with it.

Yes hoepfully Daly will be allowed to play 13 if Miller and Masi cover 15..

Barney,

Is Manu any quicker? I wouldnt say so. And 36 and Manu appear to be considered the prefered choice when everyone is fit.

Forget Croft the next 6 is Dave Ewers. With Sam Dickinson waiting in the wings for another back row slot. Both looking very good at the moment.

Can't think of his name sounds like "Wetherspoon" but he is the next 9 after Dickson. B. Youngs needs to regain his mojo with his club.

Cole is way off the pace and out of form. Thomas eclipsed him easily in the 5 mins he had against Scotland. Cole needs to be benched or rested altogether.

Wasn't Burrell ran down by a back three player? Who should definitely be quicker then him...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Barney,

Is Manu any quicker? I wouldnt say so. And 36 and Manu appear to be considered the prefered choice when everyone is fit.

I think Manu is quicker. You dont often see him run down when he makes a break - but that may be because nobody fast enough to catch him actually wants to try   

It wouldnt surprise me if he starts losing pace as he gets older.

I can't see England playing a big 6 like Garvey or Ewers whilst Vunipola or Morgan are at 8.

Geordiefalcon Daly should only be considered as a shoo in for England 13 when he plays there for his club.

Masi is seen as the premier 13 at Wasps as it stands.

I agree that Burrell is showing what good support does - two tries to his name and should have really had a 3rd.

Personally I think Burrell-Tuilagi can work because of the way Lancaster is currently using the back three. There's not much guile there but Burrell's simple style has been effective so far and when on form it can't be argued that Tuilagi is a big threat.

If opposition focus on one player it opens up opportunities for others.

Of what I saw of the Scotland game I thought Twelvetrees was much improved but I feel that of the two - Burrell and Twelvetrees - Burrell has had the bigger impact.

Geordiefalcon Daly should only be considered as a shoo in for England 13 when he plays there for his club.

But Burrell is a 12 playing at 13?

Burrell has made a bigger impact than 36 but I think that is also down to 36 helping to make him look good.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Barney,

Is Manu any quicker? I wouldnt say so. And 36 and Manu appear to be considered the prefered choice when everyone is fit.

I think Manu is quicker. You dont often see him run down when he makes a break - but that may be because nobody fast enough to catch him actually wants to try   

It wouldnt surprise me if he starts losing pace as he gets older.

Manu is definitely faster than than Burrell. He played a lot on the wing when he was a teen.

I fear Burrell-Tuilagi would be too one dimensional. There's no point in having pacy wigs if the ball never gets to them. Tuilagi basically doesn't pass, Burrell is a reasonable distributor, and 36 an outstanding one. The situation with the kicking is very similar. I bet Farrell enjoys playing with a second distributor.

lostinwales wrote:Burrell has made a bigger impact than 36 but I think that is also down to 36 helping to make him look good.

Against Scotland there is an argument for this

Lets be honest when we say "made a bigger impact" we mean " has ran past more defenders and had more space".
Has anyone analysed the number of times their play drew the defence out of position or how good their defensive positioning was etc?

Burrell will have ran more than 36, or at least he had better have done because thats whats hes employed to do.

lostinwales wrote:Burrell has made a bigger impact than 36 but I think that is also down to 36 helping to make him look good.

Personally (and ive been saying this also for a while) i think its more down to the forwards actually carrying better and the likes of Vunipola making inroads sucking in defenders and creating space. Ie Burrels try v Scotland...Farrells creative play, Vunipola smashing through and the offload to good support play.

Even Wood and Lawes have been making a big impression in this area.

Its basic rugby...but something we simly havent done under Lancaster...well until glimpses of it now this 6n.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Geordiefalcon Daly should only be considered as a shoo in for England 13 when he plays there for his club.

But Burrell is a 12 playing at 13?

Not according to Burrell he isn't. There was a lengthy newspaper interview where he rejected the idea that he was more one than the other.

DaveM wrote:I fear Burrell-Tuilagi would be too one dimensional. There's no point in having pacy wigs if the ball never gets to them. Tuilagi basically doesn't pass, Burrell is a reasonable distributor, and 36 an outstanding one. The situation with the kicking is very similar. I bet Farrell enjoys playing with a second distributor.

Exactly what I said 10 posts ago

Mike Catt specifically stated that England werent looking for an "inside / outside " combination but a "distributor runner" combination. It appears this alluded to playing Burrell "out of position" to utilise his skill set. Unless they are planning to cover Tuillagi to an Olly Barkley style 12 then I suggest its unlikely they would both be picked to start together unless Jamie Noon takes over as backs coach.

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Geordiefalcon Daly should only be considered as a shoo in for England 13 when he plays there for his club.

But Burrell is a 12 playing at 13?

Not according to Burrell he isn't. There was a lengthy newspaper interview where he rejected the idea that he was more one than the other.

Of course he did. How often does a player argue with his current coach in an interview? Brown said he was really happy to play wing last year!

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Geordiefalcon Daly should only be considered as a shoo in for England 13 when he plays there for his club.

But Burrell is a 12 playing at 13?

Not according to Burrell he isn't. There was a lengthy newspaper interview where he rejected the idea that he was more one than the other.

Dave

I was merely argueing Beshockeds statement. Daly cant play for England because he isnt playing there for his club. But its ok for Burrell to play there depsite him not playing at 13 either for his club?

Geordiefalcon Burrell is still playing in the centres. Daly would be playing centre instead of full back.

lostinwales really? You think Twelvetrees is making Burrell look good? I suppose that was the case with Burrell's two tries too.  

Rugby is not a particularly difficult game when you look at it. It's simply about doing the basics well.

I disagree. I like the brutal simplicity of a potential Burrell and Tuilagi combo.

It's not as if any of the other centre combos have done a good job of unleashing the back three.

It's been about route one. It's difficult to score for England if you are a back three player. Brown has only done it recently through the art of the bludgeon.

Lancaster obviously likes the bludgeon when you have the likes of Billy and Brown so why not have two more in the centres?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

killer938 wrote:Peter

I would say Burrell will move back to 12 once Manu is fit

You wont see a starting 12/13 of Burrell Tuilagi unless they change tack. England want one kicker/passer and one runner.

Sorry, maybe my initial comment wasn't clear, I meant in terms of England's thinking he would move back to 12, I didn't mean he would start. I agree that this is the way SL wants to play but as he has shown with playing Barritt that he isn't completely adverse to playing a different type of player. Also, with all due respect to Barritt, I think Burrell shows a lot more going forward. Like Beshocked, I think Burrell and Tuilagi can play together and be successful, even if it won't be SL's first choice pairing. The power those two would provide would be worrying for any defense and you wouldn't know which direction it was coming from.

I think 36 can bludgeon. I think because of that his running off the ball helps to keep the defense interested and makes more space for Burrell.

A lot of what is happening is down to Care pulling the right strings, but Farrell and the 2 centers are giving him plenty of targets to throw to. The things they are getting right are not just down to one player.

Burrell/Tuilagi might work - it would be fun to see it tried, but 36/Burrell is actually working pretty well 2 games in, in defense and in attack

Tuilagi does pass, and when he does it's very good (much better than some who are supposed to be good passers). What he doesn't do is pass it to an isolated winger with more than one defender on them. Quite a few of the "he should have passed" events I've seen have had one attacker outside him with a several covering defenders and his forwards the other side of the pitch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are times it would have been better for him to pass, but not as many as Stuart Barnes says.

Now if Croft was in the team he could be doing his supporting role out wide and the confidence would be there that we could survive a ruck until the forwards came. Much like Bath in the early days of Banahan when they would whip it wide quickly because if the break wasn't on they had a lock on the wing.

Also, is it me or was Twelvetrees' last good game against Scotland?

EDIT: I mean previous good game

Well you could argue Brown's try against Scotland was created in part by Nowell's quick feet in a small space.......but I know how you feel about our young wingers.....  

killer938 agree. Burrell has also shown he runs very good lines and has caused defences problems already.

lostinwales I agree it's not down to one player but I am trying to work out what you think Twelvetrees-Tuilagi could do that Burrell-Tuilagi couldn't.

I feel that Burrell-Tuilagi would be the more imposing threat. I also feel that with these two punching holes it could create more space for the wingers. I still feel that the wingers are toiling under Lancaster.

Also with those two acting as huge threats it gives more opportunity for Care and Farrell to potentially wriggle through a gap as the focus would be on stopping the big two centres.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, is it me or was Twelvetrees' last good game against Scotland?

EDIT: I mean previous good game

I personally thought he had a fine Autumn, bar the Aussie game and was good in Argentina too.

So bar the game we won he did alright? And the Argentina tour doesn't count for anything (when was he called up to Lions).

He's done ok. He certainly hasn't done enough to cement his spot but he's done enough to stick around in the squad. At this stage with Tuilagi out I think it's better for him to continue playing with Burrell as Burrell is brand new. George Marvin he isn't.

I thought he had a mediocre autumn, admittedly not helped by Tomkins at all, and Farrell copped a bit of blame he didn't deserve due to his centres

12T is an absolute shoo-in .... when we play Scotland. I look forward to seeing him pass, kick and play-make...in a year's time.

When we play decent sides however he runs laterally into the opposition and occasionally passes to players' knees.

I'm looking forward to trying out a Burrell/ Manu combination tho.

beshocked wrote:killer938 agree. Burrell has also shown he runs very good lines and has caused defences problems already.

lostinwales I agree it's not down to one player but I am trying to work out what you think Twelvetrees-Tuilagi could do that Burrell-Tuilagi couldn't.

I feel that Burrell-Tuilagi would be the more imposing threat. I also feel that with these two punching holes it could create more space for the wingers. I still feel that the wingers are toiling under Lancaster.

Also with those two acting as huge threats it gives more opportunity for Care and Farrell to potentially wriggle through a gap as the focus would be on stopping the big two centres.

May and Nowell were far more involved in the game against Scotland than we've seen from England wingers for a while.

What can the 36 and Tuilagi do that Burrell and Tuilagi can't? Put wingers away with long flat passes? Clear the ball into the opposition half? Other an alternative distributor when Farrell is buried or where you want to vary things? Twelvetrees is no lightweight - he carries well, is superb at the ruck and has enough pace that he's played OC and even wing before when at Leicester.

And I'm sorry but Tuilagi doesn't pass. I think that's part of the reason SL would like to try him on the wing.

HammerofThunor wrote:So bar the game we won he did alright? And the Argentina tour doesn't count for anything (when was he called up to Lions).

He's done ok. He certainly hasn't done enough to cement his spot but he's done enough to stick around in the squad. At this stage with Tuilagi out I think it's better for him to continue playing with Burrell as Burrell is brand new. George Marvin he isn't.

Well we won 2/3 in the Autumn and I'm pretty sure he got a try in one of the games.

I don't know, I'm happy to see Burrell/Manu given a go - just sticking up for Billy a bit.

DaveM wrote:And I'm sorry but Tuilagi doesn't pass. I think that's part of the reason SL would like to try him on the wing.

I'm sorry but he does. I've seen it with my own eyes.

EnglishReign wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So bar the game we won he did alright? And the Argentina tour doesn't count for anything (when was he called up to Lions).

He's done ok. He certainly hasn't done enough to cement his spot but he's done enough to stick around in the squad. At this stage with Tuilagi out I think it's better for him to continue playing with Burrell as Burrell is brand new. George Marvin he isn't.

Well we won 2/3 in the Autumn and I'm pretty sure he got a try in one of the games.

I don't know, I'm happy to see Burrell/Manu given a go - just sticking up for Billy a bit.

So he's good against Argentina?

as I said. He's done ok. Had some bad games (but not enough), had some good games (but not enough). The key thing there is he hasn't had enough games. He certainly hasn't had enough games with our first choice (at the moment) 13. Give him the 6 nations. It's not enough to have one guy anyway.

Tullagis last test start :
K/p/r
0/3/7

Burrels:
0/7/6

Twelvetrees
2/6/9

Barritt
0/2/9

Joseph
1/1/9

Eastmond
0/10/5

Tomkins
0/0/8



Two points:
1) England employ one center to run and one to pass
2) Tuillagi isnt as much of a ball hog as Joseph and Tomkins

Barney McGrew did it wrote:12T is an absolute shoo-in ....  when we play Scotland. I look forward to seeing him pass, kick and play-make...in a year's time.

When we play decent sides however he runs laterally into the opposition and occasionally passes to players' knees.

I'm looking forward to trying out a Burrell/ Manu combination tho.

He played well against NZ and France.

England have plenty of players who can carry the ball in the forwards and backs, and some who can run. Why sub in even more carrying at the expense of distribution?

If your wings were Tuilagi and Wade then that would provide some interesting defensive challenges at set pieces and when they come off their wings. I'd rather see that than a Burrell/Tuilagi centre combo.

HammerofThunor wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So bar the game we won he did alright? And the Argentina tour doesn't count for anything (when was he called up to Lions).

He's done ok. He certainly hasn't done enough to cement his spot but he's done enough to stick around in the squad. At this stage with Tuilagi out I think it's better for him to continue playing with Burrell as Burrell is brand new. George Marvin he isn't.

Well we won 2/3 in the Autumn and I'm pretty sure he got a try in one of the games.

I don't know, I'm happy to see Burrell/Manu given a go - just sticking up for Billy a bit.

So he's good against Argentina?

as I said. He's done ok. Had some bad games (but not enough), had some good games (but not enough).  The key thing there is he hasn't had enough games. He certainly hasn't had enough games with our first choice (at the moment) 13. Give him the 6 nations. It's not enough to have one guy anyway.

See I agree with that; he has shown enough to not be dropped completely (like Tomkins) but not shown enough to be irreplaceable (like Care/Brown). So let's just see how the next 3 games go before final judgement.

DaveM wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:12T is an absolute shoo-in ....  when we play Scotland. I look forward to seeing him pass, kick and play-make...in a year's time.

When we play decent sides however he runs laterally into the opposition and occasionally passes to players' knees.

I'm looking forward to trying out a Burrell/ Manu combination tho.

He played well against NZ and France.

England have plenty of players who can carry the ball in the forwards and backs, and some who can run. Why sub in even more carrying at the expense of distribution?

Don't agree - he was fair-to-middling. He's in for his kicking, passing, playmaking. Against France he kicked away an overlap, he passed to Vunipola's knees and missed Nowell, and the only playmaking I saw was from Care and Vunipola for the tries. He's a decent player but doesn't earn his keep (except against Scotland obviously). If he can show what he's in for against the better sides, I'll be happy as a pig in muck. I'd give him the rest of the 6N then if he doesn't deliver go for Burrell & Manu.

Well I think the coaches are happy with him, and I think Burrell/Tuilagi just isn't the way Catt wants the backs to play. Again, why take out the best wide passer in the side and replace him with a specialist carrier? England aren't struggling in this regard, and of course Twelvetrees actually carries well.

So I expect Twelvetrees will be 12 in NZ, but we will see.

Didn't realise Catt was one of England's coaches.  

Best wide passer in the side? Specialist carrier? How do you explain those?

Farrell has been more of an attacking and creative threat than Twelvetrees. Say it all really.  

Agree with barney mcgrew it. Can't argue that Twelvetrees seems to play well vs Scotland though.

In terms of effectiveness one cannot argue that Burrell has done more than Twelvetrees in an attacking dimension. I am still not convinced that Twelvetrees is a creative genius who the rest of the team rely upon.

36 has the rest of the 6N. Probably best to review things at the end

I've seen little of 36's "wide passing" and carrying tbh. I think Burrell's distribution has been stronger which has been surprising.

Yeah the side will be the same for the 6n barring injuries.

See how Twelvetrees goes. I dont think he's done terrible mind.

If we can get him going though...it would be quite a 9-13 axis...

36 threw one lovely pass to May against Scotland in the second half. It was 3 on 3, but his pass skipped out Burrell I think and put may into space after cutting open the Scottish defence. May should have finished it off really, but an excellent tackle by Dunbar stopped him from doing so.

I've also been impressed with 36's carrying, especially against Scotland. He carries with aggression and seemed to get over the gain line most times he carried. His defence was fine as well- everyone still holds that one missed tackle against Australia against him, even though he's actually a solid defender.

Still, with the rest of the 6 Nations likely to see him continue at 12, he has a lot more to prove he's the long term answer.