The Scottish International Rugby Thread

[R!skysports]

First topic message reminder :

As a die hard Scotland rugby supporter, over the years I have been dragged through the mill. Poor selections, poor coaches and poor players.

Through thick and thin I have bleed blue, but is it time to say, enough is enough.

The incompetence and down right corruption* at the sru means I have been supporting a system and structure that, is to be frank, not deserving of my support.

When is it time to say, enough is enough. You shall not take my support for granted, and I will not support that was of space that is the sru.

Can we evoke change and move away from the old blazers who are destroying our game

Should we stop watching our team who currently make a fool of themselves


I am getting close to saying yes. I am almost at the point I do not care about our team And will sod off to go shopping this weekend


Our continued passion means our support ratifies the sru. Is it time to go on strike to show our displeasure, even if that means we miss out of watching our passion.

Can we affect the outcome

Your a dispirited and depressed Scotsman




*no proof of real corruption, but certainly an ability to corrupt the supporter


BUT I SUPPORT SCOTLAND TO THE END - GO SCOTLAND

(edited text, as the super duper mix tape of threads needed a most positive intro :-)

[George Carlin]

Am fairly looking forward to:
10. Robinson

Isn't he going to Ulster?

Probably. Knowing of the SRU's well honed inability to score in a brothel.

[RDW]

There's been a lot of talk about Robinson, and it really is a difficult decision for him:

Sign for Ulster and play for a top European club, but wait for 3 years to play for a Ireland

Sign for Edinbrugh/Glasgow and play for Scotland straight away.

Hmm, tough one...

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

There's been a lot of talk about Robinson, and it really is a difficult decision for him:

Sign for Ulster and play for a top European club, but wait for 3 years to play for a Ireland

Sign for Edinbrugh/Glasgow and play for Scotland straight away.

Hmm, tough one...

Someone should get Vern Cotter on the phone to this guy strait away, but whatever they do, don't let that feicin crack addict Johnson anywhere near him

[Nematode]

If he opts for Glasgow, he has the keys to number ten and for Scotland at ten. I'm sure he'd also be able to walk into the centre. BUT he'd be given plenty of game time at high-flying Ulster and I'm sure would get into the Irish team. If it was me, I'd be heading to Ulster.

[RDW]

If he opts for Glasgow, he has the keys to number ten and for Scotland at ten. I'm sure he'd also be able to walk into the centre. BUT he'd be given plenty of game time at high-flying Ulster and I'm sure would get into the Irish team. If it was me, I'd be heading to Ulster.

Why only if he ops for Glasgow? It's not as if Piers Francis is going to keep him out of the Edinburgh 10 shirt...

Ulster have Paddy Jackson at 10 and Jared Payne at 15 - two top performing players for them. Would he really get a regular starting spot?

[Nematode]

If he opts for Glasgow, he has the keys to number ten and for Scotland at ten. I'm sure he'd also be able to walk into the centre. BUT he'd be given plenty of game time at high-flying Ulster and I'm sure would get into the Irish team. If it was me, I'd be heading to Ulster.

Why only if he ops for Glasgow? It's not as if Piers Francis is going to keep him out of the Edinburgh 10 shirt...

Ulster have Paddy Jackson at 10 and Jared Payne at 15 - two top performing players for them.  Would he really get a regular starting spot?

The SRU would want him at a good side - Glasgow - like they did with Maitland and Strauss. And he plays centre so I'm pretty sure he'd get game time.

[Notch]

i don't think Robinson will be a regular starter initially if he does sign for us- the point is that Jackson and Payne will be in the Ireland 23 and we have no cover for them. So he'll play loads and he'll also be guaranteed at the very least a bench spot in all the big games.

Tbh, if I was him I would go to Scotland but if he calls Sean Maitland and asks whether it was worth it and Maitland tells him exactly what all the players think about Scott Johnson and his tactics he'll be in Ravenhill with a big smile posing for photos with our shirt before the season is out.

[RDW]

To be fair Notch, SJ only has 3 games left!

[Notch]

Yeah if I was Robinson I'd go to Scotland, guaranteed to be playing test rugby. Ulster can't guarantee him European Cup rugby right now. But if you look at the example of Toulon, competition for places seems to actually enhance your chances of landing top players because players see a competitive group like that as more likely to succeed.

Robinson has also struggled with injuries long term so we have to wait and see what role that plays. Has there been any concrete suggestion the SRU have even approached him?

[Nematode]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_gN2UdIPkc

You really think he'll only get a bench spot?

[Notch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_gN2UdIPkc

You really think he'll only get a bench spot?

Tbh, I would bet we'd end up seeing Jackson 10, Payne 13, Robinson 15. Thats impressive but you have a guy at 10 with the world at it's feet and an equally impressive player in Jared Payne so yeah there are no guarantees. There is no way the IRFU would let us drop Paddy Jackson from 10 as he's being groomed as the successor to Jonny Sexton in the Ireland 10 shirt. So thats off the table. So it's between Robinson and Payne at 15, one of them might move to centre, with Robinson at 10 when Jackson is on Ireland duty.

Salivating at the idea of those three in the same team to be fair.

[Nematode]

Is Jackson that good? Not seen him much [esp. lately], but the little I did see [vs Scotland last year] and a few occasions in the rabo last year he seemed a bit out of his depth. Has he come on? Hopefully he has as competition between Madigan & Jackson would benefit Ireland immensely for the bench.

[RDW]

Notch - is Payne seen as the replacement for BoD? The problem of having one of the worlds best ever 13's is that you don't have much backup at international level as no one else gets much experience there..

[Notch]

In short yes, so if the IRFU insist on Payne getting more game time at outside centre we'll need a new fullback.

[Notch]

Jackson I think will be a test Lion one day. If I was a betting man I'd put a few quid on it- not because he's a flair player, but because he's a brilliant tactical kicker, organiser and link man. He's a very complete 10, thats why he's overtaken Madigan in the pecking order. He reminds me a lot of Jonny Wilkinson in terms of his all-round game so he needs to get his place kicking up to a similar standard.

You say he looked out of his depth but did you ever see Jonny Sexton at that age? He was playing club rugby, not close to making the breakthrough for Leinster. O'Gara at that age was playing for Munster but wasn't thought to be an amazing option, though he did make his international bow behind David Humphreys it still took him several years to become an established test player. The fact he's been thrown in at the deep end is because his coaches know he can have a bad game in front of thousands of people and it won't affect him at all in terms of his preparation for next week, I think he has been rushed but at the same time he doesn't need to be handled with kid gloves or looked after. Bloody strong minded young man. That why I'd bet on him to make it to the very top of the game. Mental strength combined with ability, the only factor missing is experience; by the time he's 24, 25 he'll be very good indeed.

Anyway, even if I'm completely wrong about him and his drops like a stone it's a moot point. The IRFU won't give us permission to use a non-Irish eligible player at 10 in big games. Jackson will be first choice 10 next season

[Heuer27]

If Robbie Robinson wants to play in a World Cup then he needs to commit himself to Scotland. If Brendan McKibben can be persuaded likewise then Scottish rugby would be in a much better place going into the World Cup. We have good attacking flair in the backs and with the right coaching a pretty formidable pack. Add in two quality half backs and I think we would do well.

Oh and have anyone seen the team for Saturday !!!

[tigertattie]

Scotland with a quality 10?

Oh my how I long for the day

We've not had a decent 10 for over 20 years!

Actually, I watched a program about the 84 Grand Slam. Rutherford looks like he's in half decent shape (has much the same build as Duncan Wier to be honest) If he were to come out of retirement I'd pick him over the meatball or the rhubarb!

[Heuer27]

It's very depressing that our last world class ten was Rutherford.
I don't count Charmers as he was too one dimensional and Toony was an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Brilliant and awful, often at the same time. Loved watching him play though even,if sometimes it was through my fingers.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

It's very depressing that our last world class ten was Rutherford.
I don't count Charmers as he was too one dimensional and Toony was an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Brilliant and awful, often at the same time. Loved watching him play though even,if sometimes it was through my fingers.

Rutherford could blow hot and cold too, tho, and Toony and Chick were both worthy wearers of the Lions shirt - but nothing since   

[Captain_Sensible]

I'd give my left buttock to have a young Toonie playing for us again.

I'd give the other buttock for a competent coach, too.

[Guest]

You wouldn't need your buttocks anymore as you'll be giving standing ovations to Scottish rugby through the WC   

[Heuer27]

I was quite young when Rutherford was playing so only remember the highlights I suppose.

We could do a best ever Scotland 15 to cheer us up. I have a feeling we might need it come Saturday.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Get most of them playing on Saturday - couldn't be any worse that the current 15 tbh

[George Carlin]

I was quite young when Rutherford was playing so only remember the highlights I suppose.

We could do a best ever Scotland 15 to cheer us up. I have a feeling we might need it come Saturday.

It's late and I need to go home but I am definitely up for cheering myself up with that first, Heuer:

01 Ian McLauchlan
02 Colin Deans
03 Iain Milne
04 Gordon Brown
05 Doddie Weir 
06 John Jeffrey 
07 Finlay Calder
08 Jim Telfer

09 Gary Armstrong
10 John Rutherford
11 Ian Smith
12 Jim Renwick
13 Scott Hastings
14 Andy Irvine
15 Gavin Hastings

16 David Sole
17 Kenny Milne
18 Sandy Carmichael/Tom Smith
19 David Leslie
20 Roy Laidlaw
21 Gregor Townsend
22 Alan Tait
23 Ken Scotland

Damn. We've had some giants of the game.

It was a tough one to leave Brendan Laney and Dan Parks out. But I went there.

[Heuer27]

I am struggling to come up with any viable alternatives to your 23. Would maybe swap one or two positions in the 23 but that's about it
Sean lineen maybe squeeze into the 23. Then there's Roger Baird,Tony Stanger, Kenny Logan, John Leslie, Peter Dods, Damien Cronin, Jim Calder, Scott Murray, Jason White and Mossy.

Jees we have had some decent talent .

Do you think any of today's players will make their way into an all time list ?

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm far too young to remember all the golden oldies listed by GC, but my "happier days" XV would be as follows:

1.Tom Smith 2.Kenny Milne 3.Euan Murray 4.Scott Murray 5.Doddie Weir 6.Jason White 7.Finlay Calder 8.Simon Taylor 9.Garry Armstrong 10.Gregor Townsend 11.Thom Evans 12.John Leslie 13.Scott Hastings 14.Alan Tait 15.Gavin Hastings

Were they playing on Saturday, I'd more confident of victory.

[George Carlin]

I am struggling to come up with any viable alternatives to your 23. Would maybe swap one or two positions in the 23 but that's about it
Sean lineen maybe squeeze into the 23. Then there's Roger Baird,Tony Stanger, Kenny Logan, John Leslie, Peter Dods, Damien Cronin, Jim Calder, Scott Murray, Jason White and Mossy.

Jees we have had some decent talent .

Do you think any of today's players will make their way into an all time list ?

We're in a funny place with contemporary players. Can we really claim that anyone in the past 20 years is good enough to be a great? They did not compare well to their peers in other countries, so that's the kiss of death for the likes of Mossy, whom we very much wanted to be better than he was.

In the professional world, it's different. Nobody is great yet, but having started young, Hogg, Visser, J Gray and Matt Scott are the ones to watch. Hopefully the wilderness years of absolute idiocy and mediocrity are over.

[Heuer27]

Unfortunately I think you are right GC. My own money would be on Matt Scott and Jonny Gray. I think Hogg will fall a little short and I really don't rate Tim Visser as an all round player. Some of his fellow pro's who I know question his minerals.

Either of those two sides you guys have picked would have destroyed our current team.
My own selection
1) David Sole
2) Colin Deans
3) Iain ' the bear' Milne
4) Gordon Brown
5) Scott Murray
6). Finlay Calder
7) John Jeffries
8) John Beattie Snr
9) Gary Armstrong
10) John Rutherford
11) Roger Baird/ Ivan Tukalo
12) Jim Renwick
13) Scott Hastings
14) Andy Irvine
15) Big Gav

16) Kenny Milne
17) Tom Smith
18) Euan Murray
19) Jason White
20) Jim Telfer/ David Leslie
21) Sean Lineen
22) Alan Tait
23) Roy Laidlaw

[Notch]

I am struggling to come up with any viable alternatives to your 23. Would maybe swap one or two positions in the 23 but that's about it
Sean lineen maybe squeeze into the 23. Then there's Roger Baird,Tony Stanger, Kenny Logan, John Leslie, Peter Dods, Damien Cronin, Jim Calder, Scott Murray, Jason White and Mossy.

Jees we have had some decent talent .

Do you think any of today's players will make their way into an all time list ?

We're in a funny place with contemporary players. Can we really claim that anyone in the past 20 years is good enough to be a great? They did not compare well to their peers in other countries, so that's the kiss of death for the likes of Mossy, whom we very much wanted to be better than he was.

In the professional world, it's different. Nobody is great yet, but having started young, Hogg, Visser, J Gray and Matt Scott are the ones to watch. Hopefully the wilderness years of absolute idiocy and mediocrity are over.

In many ways, thats the polar opposite of Ireland. Before the professional era Ireland were for very long stretches as bad or worse as Scotland are now. And we lost to the likes of Namibia at times... not great. So really apart from a few outstanding players who shone with the Lions when they had better players around them like Mike Gibson and Willie John McBride, and maybe guys like Slattery, Geoghegan and Kyle, I'd say most of our greatest ever players would be from within the last 20 years.

I think it's really unfortunate that Scottish players haven't got maybe a fair shake of selection when it comes to Lions Tours of late, because thats the chance for an outstanding player in a below-par team to really stake his claim on greatness. When Ireland were awful the Lions was often the only chance the few really good players we had every generation to really show their mettle. Stuart Hogg was particularly unlucky that his rival for the fullback jersey last year was a goal kicking machine.

[Notch]

Jason White was a truly mighty player; for a brief time he was as good or better than any other back row in the NH.

[Heuer27]

For a while he was the rock that the rest of the national team were anchored to.

[Heuer27]

Big Al Kellock thought he was inspirational for the rest of the team. Coming from A motivator of his calibre that is a compliment indeed.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Article   in The Herald today by Alistair Reid re the leadership provided by Paul O'Connell - compares that with the lack of leadership (and ability) provided by Laidlaw. More depression tbh. Why do we bother !  

[Heuer27]

Not seen that article but it's hard to argue against tbh

[GLove39]

Please chaps, let's not be to down, just look at the stats ahead of Saturday...
Haven't scored a try in last 4 games.
Have been nilled twice in our last 4 games.
Haven't won away game in the 6Nations since Ireland 2010... Our last away victory before that was Italy 2006
  

*sobs in the corner*

[Nematode]

Please chaps, let's not be to down, just look at the stats ahead of Saturday...
Haven't scored a try in last 4 games.
Have been nilled twice in our last 4 games.
Haven't won away game in the 6Nations since Ireland 2010... Our last away victory before that was Italy 2006
  

*sobs in the corner*

** sob even more, it's too

[SecretFly]

Article   in The Herald today by Alistair Reid re the leadership provided by Paul O'Connell - compares that with the lack of leadership (and ability) provided by Laidlaw.   More depression tbh.   Why do we bother !  

Yes, very complimentary to O'Connell and Irish rugby in general.... but our Tourist board won't like his piece too much! There goes your free beer in a little West of Ireland pub the next time you're over, Alistair  

[GLove39]

Please chaps, let's not be to down, just look at the stats ahead of Saturday...
Haven't scored a try in last 4 games.
Have been nilled twice in our last 4 games.
Haven't won away game in the 6Nations since Ireland 2010... Our last away victory before that was Italy 2006
  

*sobs in the corner*

** sob even more, it's too

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/111/795/Image1.png

[Notch]

Article   in The Herald today by Alistair Reid re the leadership provided by Paul O'Connell - compares that with the lack of leadership (and ability) provided by Laidlaw.   More depression tbh.   Why do we bother !  

Yes, very complimentary to O'Connell and Irish rugby in general.... but our Tourist board won't like his piece too much!  There goes your free beer in a little West of Ireland pub the next time you're over, Alistair  

It's a very good piece, but he talks about Ireland having the luck of a few once in a generation players whereas Scotland haven't... he rather glosses over that since the start of the professionalism Ireland have consistently invested in their academy structures and made efforts to cast the net for talent ever wider each year at every province.

I was very struck by the contrast with Scotland in that respect when I was watching BBC Alba recently- I think it was at half-time between Cardiff and Glasgow they had a feature on Galashiels. Obviously The Borders have been historically the heartlands of Scottish rugby. They were interviewing the current Gala coach and although he'll obviously be biased he said "We have some really talented guys here, guys who I think could be international rugby players. The only thing they're lacking is, in my opinion, the opportunity."

In the next few days Edinburgh announced the signings of three overseas players who qualify to play for Scotland on the basis of ancestry.

Now if the coach one of Scotlands biggest rugby clubs in the middle of their biggest rugby area thinks his best guys at that level are not given the opportunity to show that they can play at the higher level, and you have a constant stream of foreign-born players who have come through another nations system into the pro teams that must be massively demoralising for everyone at grassroots level in Scottish rugby, even more than the national teams misfortunes. And it to me, and if I'm wrong please do contradict me, to me it paints a picture of a Union who are totally transfixed in bringing players in from outside the system whilst talent that is right under their nose spoils and goes to waste.

Now compare that to Ireland where the provinces are trying so hard to create a culture of excellence and success at that level that will feed into the Academy system and inspire the next Paul O'Connell, the next Brian O'Driscoll- exceptional talent comes along rarely but exceptional leaders are made, not born. They are made by coming into teams that have a culture of excellence. And of course the provinces are trying their damnedest to reach out beyond their traditional catchment area. In Ulster, rugby is the fastest growing sport in Donegal. We have dedicated community rugby officers who work for the Ulster Branch going into Donegal schools and basically coaching the coaches and introducing the sport to schools that would never have had any tradition of playing the game whatsoever. From the outside it seems like the SRU aren't even trying to nurture talent within their traditional catchment areas! Also that rugby is a niche sport and they're pretty much happy about that.

So I'm not really sure it is luck, Alistair. Players don't just drop onto the doorstep fully formed at 20. You have to set up a pretty good system if you want the next O'Connell, the next O'Driscoll.

Also, I completely accidentally changed the title of this thread I don't even know how I keep doing this... so I just changed it to this more prosaic title. Mea culpa.

[123456789]

My all time XV:

1. Traynor
2. Hall
3. Dickinson
4. Kellock
5. Hamilton
6. Callam
7. Brown
8. Barclay
9. Lawson
10. Godman
11. Danielli
12. Morrison
13. Henderson
14. Walker
15. Southwell

I put all the players in the positions in which they truly excelled themselves

[BigGee]

Article   in The Herald today by Alistair Reid re the leadership provided by Paul O'Connell - compares that with the lack of leadership (and ability) provided by Laidlaw.   More depression tbh.   Why do we bother !  

Yes, very complimentary to O'Connell and Irish rugby in general.... but our Tourist board won't like his piece too much!  There goes your free beer in a little West of Ireland pub the next time you're over, Alistair  

It's a very good piece, but he talks about Ireland having the luck of a few once in a generation players whereas Scotland haven't... he rather glosses over that since the start of the professionalism Ireland have consistently invested in their academy structures and made efforts to cast the net for talent ever wider each year at every province.

I was very struck by the contrast with Scotland in that respect when I was watching BBC Alba recently- I think it was at half-time between Cardiff and Glasgow they had a feature on Galashiels. Obviously The Borders have been historically the heartlands of Scottish rugby. They were interviewing the current Gala coach and although he'll obviously be biased he said "We have some really talented guys here, guys who I think could be international rugby players. The only thing they're lacking is, in my opinion, the opportunity."

In the next few days Edinburgh announced the signings of three overseas players who qualify to play for Scotland on the basis of ancestry.

Now if the coach one of Scotlands biggest rugby clubs in the middle of their biggest rugby area thinks his best guys at that level are not given the opportunity to show that they can play at the higher level, and you have a constant stream of foreign-born players who have come through another nations system into the pro teams that must be massively demoralising for everyone at grassroots level in Scottish rugby, even more than the national teams misfortunes. And it to me, and if I'm wrong please do contradict me, to me it paints a picture of a Union who are totally transfixed in bringing players in from outside the system whilst talent that is right under their nose spoils and goes to waste.

Now compare that to Ireland where the provinces are trying so hard to create a culture of excellence and success at that level that will feed into the Academy system and inspire the next Paul O'Connell, the next Brian O'Driscoll- exceptional talent comes along rarely but exceptional leaders are made, not born. They are made by coming into teams that have a culture of excellence. And of course the provinces are trying their damnedest to reach out beyond their traditional catchment area. In Ulster, rugby is the fastest growing sport in Donegal. We have dedicated community rugby officers who work for the Ulster Branch going into Donegal schools and basically coaching the coaches and introducing the sport to schools that would never have had any tradition of playing the game whatsoever. From the outside it seems like the SRU aren't even trying to nurture talent within their traditional catchment areas! Also that rugby is a niche sport and they're pretty much happy about that.

So I'm not really sure it is luck, Alistair. Players don't just drop onto the doorstep fully formed at 20. You have to set up a pretty good system if you want the next O'Connell, the next O'Driscoll.

Also, I completely accidentally changed the title of this thread I don't even know how I keep doing this... so I just changed it to this more prosaic title. Mea culpa.

For all their organisation and once in a generation set of players, it is worth remembering that Ireland have Internationally, if not domestically, massively under achieved over the past 10 years and at times such as last year were abjectly bad. It seems it needs more than that. Maybe the new coach is the missing piece of the jigsaw, it would be good for this set of players to take a bit more of what they deserve into retirement with them.

[Notch]

True, true we've underachieved. But I take some comfort in the fact that we're at least in a position to be underachieving. Before Ireland would have seasons were we we would win maybe one out of four games in the Five Nations and that was called overachieving.   

Here, sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread. I'll go away now.

[George Carlin]

Agreed Notch. You can only over or underachieve in the context of what is expected of you. It's been well trodden ground that to have a great team, you need 3/4 world class players to arrive at the same time. Ideally they would be a lock, loose forward, 10 and backline player.

Ireland have had Healy, BOD, Ferris, SOB, POC, Heaslip, Bowe and O'Gara (not everyone's pint of stout but he was very good at what he did)/Sexton emerge over the past 5-10 years. The problem they found was that the very best teams in the world also found some world class players over the same period - the NZ production line in particular being formidable. So I think that Ireland have under-achieved.

However, what the fading giants of the current generation have given Ireland is momentum and encouragement to a new generation of kids who have seen their side win things.

[Pal Joey]

Notch is 105% spot on.

At least try to put the feelers out and foster an environment to identify possible future stars. Sure, you may fail 49 times out of 50 - at first -
(like everyone else bar NZ does) but you're only looking for that one player. And if you're lucky; you might get two or 3 over a period of years.

Rather than isolate and ignore the heartland of the Borders region - the SRU should set up another, even more elite rugby training Academy there... near the Torwoodlee Broch or somewhere.

[tigertattie]

I know everyone loves saying that the borders is the heartland of Scottish rugby, but I'm afraid to say that simply is not the case!

There are only 7 or 8 border clubs in the top four leagues of Scottish rugby. Edinburgh has more. It comes down to population really but the borders Pro team was disbanded due to lack of funding which came form lack of support. The borders have too much inter town rivalry to come together to support a region.

The facebook campaign for change at Murrayfield want another 2 pro teams. The SRU said "sure, if you can find someone to back them financially, we'll back them morally"
Realistically, I can see one more pro team being started but this would be in the Dundee to Aberdeen region I think.

[Pal Joey]

Yeah sure tiger, but the idea of having the Border region talked about as "the heartland" has romantic value in the minds of us foreigners - even if it isn't true.

It's sort of shrouded in history, mystery, myth and tradition. It's all quite appealing really. Someone needs to find the money and take another punt at it.

Certainly more appealing than having a Centre for Excellence in the shadow of the Big Banana at Coffs Harbour or in the Sunshine Coast hinterland at Caloundra. You know what I mean?  

[George Carlin]

Notch is 105% spot on.

At least try to put the feelers out and foster an environment to identify possible future stars. Sure, you may fail 49 times out of 50 - at first -
(like everyone else bar NZ does) but you're only looking for that one player. And if you're lucky; you might get two or 3 over a period of years.

Rather than isolate and ignore the heartland of the Borders region - the SRU should set up another, even more elite rugby training Academy there... near the Torwoodlee Broch or somewhere.

You recently restructured the junior club set up in Australia didn't you, Breaker?
Not you personally, perhaps. But Your People did?

[SecretFly]

In truth rugby in Ireland has been growing since Professionalism.  It's simply a growing sport.  

You can put that down to certain players inspiring a generation to take up that sport (and there is a grain of truth in that of course) - but genuinely, I think it's more just time and history and conditions; and the Irish fondness for the passionate and almost boxing-like physicality of rugby.

It was once ignored largely by great sections of our population because it represented a 'class' of people in Ireland (and perhaps even an ethnic grouping) that supposedly didn't reflect the 'working-man' roots of the Nation.  Docs, solicitors, Vets, etc aren't working men it seems

Anyway, now that rugby is seen as a game for all, and even ex GAA players finding fame in it, the path for the game in Ireland is still a growth path in my opinion.  I know too that women in particular seem to be attracted to this team game that other team field games can't seem to mimic.  Virtually all female members in my family (and there are quite a few!) watch 6N eagerly and a good few even take in weekend Pro12 games.  Even GAA games wouldn't really get their adrenalin flowing so much.

So you could congratulate the 'Golden Generation' for bringing rugby to the attention of the greater Irish public - but I tend to see it more as just an inevitability given the break-down in social divisions over the last 20 or so years.  I'm not sure how much growth is left before it stabilises at a certain level of popularity but my selfish self hopes there's a good decade left in growth terms still.

But like Notch says..I too am hijacking this topic!  Carry on.

[RDW]

I know everyone loves saying that the borders is the heartland of Scottish rugby, but I'm afraid to say that simply is not the case!

There are only 7 or 8 border clubs in the top four leagues of Scottish rugby. Edinburgh has more. It comes down to population really but the borders Pro team was disbanded due to lack of funding which came form lack of support.  The borders have too much inter town rivalry to come together to support a region.

The facebook campaign for change at Murrayfield want another 2 pro teams.  The SRU said "sure, if you can find someone to back them financially, we'll back them morally"
Realistically, I can see one more pro team being started but this would be in the Dundee to Aberdeen region I think.

It always amazes me how the borders clubs are successful as they are, as most borders towns number in their thousands, not tens of thousands.

We have already tried pro rugby in the borders and it has failed - I would be surprised if anyone is keen to repeat the experiment any time soon.

As has been mentioned before, it is all fair and well saying a 3rd pro team will cure all our troubles, but in reality you are not going to find many top class players wanting to join a brand new team. It will therefore have to be made up of academy players, fringe pro players and old timers wanting to give something back to Scottish rugby before they retire.

So the new team is likely to get pumped week in week out, and this will continue for a few seasons as the team builds. However support will probably wane as no one wants to see their team getting pumped week in week out, so the club no longer becomes sustainable and folds. Just like the borders...

If we are going to get a new pro team we really need serious financial backing to try to persuade some top players to join, or else I really can't see it working.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Notch, While it is interesting to know what improvements Irish rugby has made and to learn what is at the root of your recent successes, there are some very specific and simply things wrong with the Scottish game which would actually be very easily addressed - by way of example, here are a few:
(i) the private schools and clubs continue to compete in separate competitions, thus denying a real opportunity to foster a higher level of competition - the problem lies with intransigence on both sides, but particularly the private schools who appear reluctant to give up their schools cup
(ii) too big a jump between prem 1 and the pro game, so whilst the coach of Gala might feel that his players are missing out solely because of lack of 'opportunity', its clear that the pro coaches don't believe his players can make the leap - and when the clubs (incl Gala) get the opportunity to reduce prem 1 to a smaller number of semi-pro teams that might better bridge the gap, then the clubs vote against that initiative
(iii) talent tends to be identified very early in the Scottish rugby world (I remember as a kid being sent off to various SRU camps at Struan in the summer) and it is very difficult for late-developers to break into the national conscience without having been groomed from an early age - again, this is easily fixed, with better structures that tie schools and junior clubs to senior clubs, senior clubs to pro districts in a far tighter way than they are already and ensuring that as many kids remain in the game as long as possible and don't get put off for missing out on national selection stuff too early

PS The Borders may only have 8 or so senior clubs, but that's way more than the area from Dundee to Aberdeen, as far as I know; clearly in terms of population and paying supporters that is quite different

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