The Scottish International Rugby Thread

[R!skysports]

First topic message reminder :

As a die hard Scotland rugby supporter, over the years I have been dragged through the mill. Poor selections, poor coaches and poor players.

Through thick and thin I have bleed blue, but is it time to say, enough is enough.

The incompetence and down right corruption* at the sru means I have been supporting a system and structure that, is to be frank, not deserving of my support.

When is it time to say, enough is enough. You shall not take my support for granted, and I will not support that was of space that is the sru.

Can we evoke change and move away from the old blazers who are destroying our game

Should we stop watching our team who currently make a fool of themselves


I am getting close to saying yes. I am almost at the point I do not care about our team And will sod off to go shopping this weekend


Our continued passion means our support ratifies the sru. Is it time to go on strike to show our displeasure, even if that means we miss out of watching our passion.

Can we affect the outcome

Your a dispirited and depressed Scotsman




*no proof of real corruption, but certainly an ability to corrupt the supporter


BUT I SUPPORT SCOTLAND TO THE END - GO SCOTLAND

(edited text, as the super duper mix tape of threads needed a most positive intro :-)

[tigertattie]

The myth of border rugby being a magical place where rugby gods are born is really quite endearing. However, it is a myth that came about from the magical use of phrases by Bill Maclaren. "like a baggie up a border burn"

As someone who has played many a match against border teams, they love the up your jumper mud wrestle type of matches.

[George Carlin]

Not at all, Fly - the truth is that you have a lot to be proud about.

And more to the point, that it's a model that any national rugby unions which may be struggling at the moment would do well to follow. Not that I have any in mind of course. Oh no.

My goodness. How did that picture get there?

[Pal Joey]

Notch is 105% spot on.

At least try to put the feelers out and foster an environment to identify possible future stars. Sure, you may fail 49 times out of 50 - at first -
(like everyone else bar NZ does) but you're only looking for that one player. And if you're lucky; you might get two or 3 over a period of years.

Rather than isolate and ignore the heartland of the Borders region - the SRU should set up another, even more elite rugby training Academy there... near the Torwoodlee Broch or somewhere.

You recently restructured the junior club set up in Australia didn't you, Breaker?
Not you personally, perhaps. But Your People did?

Yeah George.

The ARU had to take a long hard look at themselves... and then set up the plan, initiatives and targets, etc. Sporting academies had been set up for other sports (also in the lead up to the 2000 Olympics) and when they saw the successes there; the ARU did a similar thing to help our chances on the international rugby scene. Otherwise, rugby union in this country would be struggling a lot more than it is right now.

It's probably even harder here in Oz where players can be so spread out.
They do tend to gravitate towards the big 2 (RU) cities (traditionally)... often from small towns in the middle of nowhere.

Then, with the Force and Rebels getting established it has spread into other areas in the last 10-15 years or so, where; even now, AFL rules by a very long way. I'm always very surprised (as well as pleased) to see new players from those states crop up. None of this would have happened if the ARU had decided to concentrate their scouting in NSW and Qld only.

Don't forget: we still don't have a proper national comp set up yet. Coming later this year though    (after the failure of the ARC in 2007).  

[RDW]

The other main difference between Scotland and Ireland is that the SRU decided to upgrade Murrayfield leaving them cash strapped for the past 20 years, whereas the IRFU kept going with Lansdown and were able to invest the cash into the pro game. They upgraded Lansdown when the pro game was already well establish.

Our debt reached 20 million at one point - think it is around 12 million just now.

[RDW]

On the topic of border rugby..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26257162

[Notch]

Thanks for all your responses. I heard about the plan for a semi-pro league behind the pro sides being voted down; madness. But reading about the initiative to set up four regional academies is very encouraging.

[rodders]

Notch, While it is interesting to know what improvements Irish rugby has made and to learn what is at the root of your recent successes, there are some very specific and simply things wrong with the Scottish game which would actually be very easily addressed - by way of example, here are a few:
(i) the private schools and clubs continue to compete in separate competitions, thus denying a real opportunity to foster a higher level of competition - the problem lies with intransigence on both sides, but particularly the private schools who appear reluctant to give up their schools cup
(ii) too big a jump between prem 1 and the pro game, so whilst the coach of Gala might feel that his players are missing out solely because of lack of 'opportunity', its clear that the pro coaches don't believe his players can make the leap - and when the clubs (incl Gala) get the opportunity to reduce prem 1 to a smaller number of semi-pro teams that might better bridge the gap, then the clubs vote against that initiative
(iii) talent tends to be identified very early in the Scottish rugby world (I remember as a kid being sent off to various SRU camps at Struan in the summer) and it is very difficult for late-developers to break into the national conscience without having been groomed from an early age - again, this is easily fixed, with better structures that tie schools and junior clubs to senior clubs, senior clubs to pro districts in a far tighter way than they are already and ensuring that as many kids remain in the game as long as possible and don't get put off for missing out on national selection stuff too early

PS The Borders may only have 8 or so senior clubs, but that's way more than the area from Dundee to Aberdeen, as far as I know; clearly in terms of population and paying supporters that is quite different

Everyone of those issues ASBO are equally applicable to Ireland so whilst Notch and others might want to peddle the myth hat Irish rugby is the template for success and ignore the luck and circumstancial aspects that got us to where we are I think there needs to be a sense of realism.

Everything under provincial level - from academy level down - is acknowledged as generally not fit for purpose in the modern game.

Irish rugby is built on quicksand foundations propped up by the money made at the top tier reinvested into the provinces. The major difference between the Irish and scottish pro teams is plain and simple - money - the ability to go out buy in high quality overseas players and retain top talent (look at the salary heaslip was able to wangle recently)  - the Irish tax system has also helped the Munster and Leinster with the latter significantly and Ulster have benefitted massively from the former in recent seasons - it wasn't so long ago they had average crowds of 6k and couldn't buy a HEC QF.

Scottish rugby desperately needs a short term cash injection to produce competitive club teams and to retain their best players, attract top coaches. Then they will be on par with the Irish i.e. with a surface level façade of relative success for a small traditional rugby nation, and a huge amount of work to do at grassroots to make that success real and sustainable in the longer term.

So basically if Scotland votes yes and introduces a tax model which has massive incentives for rugby players to reside in scotland then you guys will be back on track.

 

[Notch]

The point is, Ireland have and continue to make every effort to address this. I agree that all of those issues are germane, but at the same time every one of those issues has been identified and a lot of talented people are trying to change that.

[George Carlin]

Notch, While it is interesting to know what improvements Irish rugby has made and to learn what is at the root of your recent successes, there are some very specific and simply things wrong with the Scottish game which would actually be very easily addressed - by way of example, here are a few:
(i) the private schools and clubs continue to compete in separate competitions, thus denying a real opportunity to foster a higher level of competition - the problem lies with intransigence on both sides, but particularly the private schools who appear reluctant to give up their schools cup
(ii) too big a jump between prem 1 and the pro game, so whilst the coach of Gala might feel that his players are missing out solely because of lack of 'opportunity', its clear that the pro coaches don't believe his players can make the leap - and when the clubs (incl Gala) get the opportunity to reduce prem 1 to a smaller number of semi-pro teams that might better bridge the gap, then the clubs vote against that initiative
(iii) talent tends to be identified very early in the Scottish rugby world (I remember as a kid being sent off to various SRU camps at Struan in the summer) and it is very difficult for late-developers to break into the national conscience without having been groomed from an early age - again, this is easily fixed, with better structures that tie schools and junior clubs to senior clubs, senior clubs to pro districts in a far tighter way than they are already and ensuring that as many kids remain in the game as long as possible and don't get put off for missing out on national selection stuff too early

PS The Borders may only have 8 or so senior clubs, but that's way more than the area from Dundee to Aberdeen, as far as I know; clearly in terms of population and paying supporters that is quite different

Everyone of those issues ASBO are equally applicable to Ireland so whilst Notch and others might want to peddle the myth hat Irish rugby is the template for success and ignore the luck and circumstancial aspects that got us to where we are I think there needs to be a sense of realism.

Everything under provincial level - from academy level down - is acknowledged as generally not fit for purpose in the modern game.

Irish rugby is built on quicksand foundations propped up by the money made at the top tier reinvested into the provinces. The major difference between the Irish and scottish pro teams is plain and simple - money - the ability to go out buy in high quality overseas players and retain top talent (look at the salary heaslip was able to wangle recently)  - the Irish tax system has also helped the Munster and Leinster with the latter significantly and Ulster have benefitted massively from the former in recent seasons - it wasn't so long ago they had average crowds of 6k and couldn't buy a HEC QF.

  You and your fence sitting, Rodders...

[SecretFly]

And I was the one accused of being a glass half empty kinda guy???!!

You could say all Nations that play rugby (even all top ten ones) all live precarious lives trying not to move too much in their quicksand foundations, Rodders.  Even the Great White One - English rugby - isn't exactly living in a valley of cream and gingham picnic baskets even seven or eight steps down from the top of the AP.  They struggle, some sides are in dept, the RFU were almost crying for a solution to be found to the European debate (knowing the truth of English rugby needing it) as their PRL clubs affected the mood of indifference "We don't need Europe, we can survive on our own".  Hmmm - you sure you could'a?

Of course professionalism is a top down entity rather than an ideal from-the-ground-up theory - that's why some of us have been so cynical about the 'future' of European club rugby - money being even moreso sucked up by the top 2 to 3 percent of European sides IF PRL/LNR finally have their way into the last part of this decade both structurally and in salary cap-ending ways.

You do what you do and what you can to hang in there.  England has its systems for sustaining its rugby, Ireland with its tax breaks does things its way for susrvival.  But everyone is trying to survive - nobody is in clover.  Irish rugby is not a disaster disguised by a glowing Headpiece, nor is it a lucky-dip that worked - it's working as well, and planned as well, as the influences of Professionalism, money and sponsorship + crowd requirements allows it to.

Nothing is perfect - but the glass is half full for now

[rodders]

Actually no Notch those issues are in the infancy of being addressed and are not related to any success on the pitch that Ireland or the pro teams have had in recent times.

The quality of the AIL has deteriorated markedly over the last decade - and there are big issues with the youth game and the quality and preparedness of the players coming in the academies, as well as opportunities to get in the academies outside traditional feeder schools.

Furthermore outside of getting selected for the academies, or being a SH player with an Irish granny or a project there is pretty much no alternative route into the professional or international game.

When was the last time a player made the jump from the AIL to the pro game? Efforts are being made but they are minuscule to the issue and will take a long time to judge if they are working.

In that regard the grassroots game isn't that much better than the Scots and in my experience vastly inferior to the Welsh.

If the system worked there would be no project players. Projects are there because it doesn't or at least not as well as it should.

[Notch]

James Coughlan? Ronan O'Mahony? Chris Henry?

I don't disagree with you The point is they are being addressed. It will take time but we are at the beginning of an upward curve- other nations in Europe, unfortunately, do not seem to be. Moves are being made which will see the status quo change. There is a great deal of untapped potential in Europe across the board which is to be expected after just 20 years of professionalism and many decades of amateur rugby before that. No-one is suggesting everything turned rosy in the garden overnight.

Obviously if you compare where we are to the systems that exist in South africa and New Zealand we are much worse off. But if you compare us to the systems that exist in Scotland or Italy, we have made massive progress.

[rodders]

Nothing is perfect - but the glass is half full for now

Yes but the point it's only the top half of the glass that's full, it looks great from above but its only when you take a big swig of it you release you've been duped.   

[SecretFly]

Nothing is perfect - but the glass is half full for now

Yes but the point it's only the top half of the glass that's full, it looks great from above but its only when you take a big swig of it you release you've been duped.   

That's Professionalism at work though.  

People pay to watch what they want to watch - the top - with the stars - the slick graphics delivery and the well paid opinionated pundits...not the schoolboys/amateurs chasing around in muck.
The ideal is never an ideal because it can't exist anymore.  Anything the bottom gets will always be scraps.... It's how you manage the scraps that will matter.  But Ireland of yesteryear didn't work either.  This present effort has given us sucess in relative terms that nobody could have predicted at the beginning of professionalism - nobody.
There is no way any of us projected Irish Provinces having as many HEC titles as England.  The IRFU though - not through luck and happy circumstances - but through design and management have done a pretty decent trick so far.  The future looks much more fragile in light of where large clubs want to go.  But let's see where it takes us.  I'm enjoying the ride.

[Notch]

We should probably start a new thread or stop, given our poor Scottish hosts will feel rather steamrollered by this chat.

[RDW]

Jeezo, who left the back door open and let all the Irish in to this thread?   

I jest - Ireland and Scotland are fairly similar, and there's a lot that applies to Irish rugby that Scotland can learn from, both positive and negative.

Carry on!

[rodders]

I think it'll make them feel better about themselves actually ...   

[rodders]

I jest - Ireland and Scotland are fairly similar, and there's a lot that applies to Irish rugby that Scotland can learn from, both positive and negative.

Carry on!

Look my point is that but for the fact that Irish folk are looser with their purse strings, and a bit reckless to be fair, than the tight scots, and Ireland being a nicer place for overseas rejects to relocate we'd be in a similar pickle to yourselves.

I really don't think there's a lot of analysis needed.

[SecretFly]

I agree about too many Irish posts here!!!!

Sorry again - that is me finished with this! Unless Rodders passes another tennis ball acorss the net at me. It's deuce right now.

[RDW]

The common theme between the two counties is the competition rugby has to find a place in a nation with various other things for people to take part in.  Ireland has all the gaelic sports, Scotland has football and sitting on a couch playing the X-box. We are a very unhealthy nation, for those that do follow sport anything other than football is in the significant minority.

I did have a hope that the demise of Rangers would help Glasgow's crowds, and especially since it is a much nicer environment to take your kids, but this doesn't seem to have happened really.  Glasgow's crowds are up, but even last season when they were riding high the crowds should have been a lot better.

What really annoys me is that the quality of Scottish football is so shockingly poor just now. It is awful, yet clubs regularly get crowds of 10000-15000 people watching - we really need to tempt some of the rugby sympathisers away from football. Easier said than done...

[rodders]

That's Professionalism at work though.  

People pay to watch what they want to watch - the top - with the stars - the slick graphics delivery and the well paid opinionated pundits...not the schoolboys/amateurs chasing around in muck.

That's capitalism at work fly - I recall a time not so long ago when you could pay a couple of quid to watch O'driscoll turn out in the muck for blackrock... actually the pitches weren't so bad then maybe the IRFU should invest more in drainage and groundkeepers. Or maybe these great times never existed and all is right in the world.

Anyway who started the oirish nonsense ..... a load of moaners the Irish, just like the  

[SecretFly]

The common theme between the two counties is the competition rugby has to find a place in a nation with various other things for people to take part in.  Ireland has all the gaelic sports, Scotland has football and sitting on a couch playing the X-box. We are a very unhealthy nation, for those that do follow sport anything other than football is in the significant minority.

I did have a hope that the demise of Rangers would help Glasgow's crowds, and especially since it is a much nicer environment to take your kids, but this doesn't seem to have happened really.  Glasgow's crowds are up, but even last season when they were riding high the crowds should have been a lot better.

What really annoys me is that the quality of Scottish football is so shockingly poor just now. It is awful, yet clubs regularly get crowds of 10000-15000 people watching - we really need to tempt some of the rugby sympathisers away from football. Easier said than done...

Tell the Rangers fans that a few thousand Celtic fans are over watching Glasgow play!  The place should fill up... especially after someone tells the Celtic fans that Rangers fans have told them to stay away from the Glasgow games

I know very little about either sets of fans actually (football ain't my thing) only that they wouldn't be best mates and stuff   .... but through rugby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????  You never ever know.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I jest - Ireland and Scotland are fairly similar, and there's a lot that applies to Irish rugby that Scotland can learn from, both positive and negative.

Carry on!

Look my point is that but for the fact that Irish folk are looser with their purse strings, and  a bit reckless to be fair, than the tight scots, and Ireland being a nicer place for overseas rejects to relocate we'd be in a similar pickle to yourselves.

I really don't think there's a lot of analysis needed.

Ah-ha, so there's the point at which you overstayed your welcome, rodders!

[RDW]

The common theme between the two counties is the competition rugby has to find a place in a nation with various other things for people to take part in.  Ireland has all the gaelic sports, Scotland has football and sitting on a couch playing the X-box. We are a very unhealthy nation, for those that do follow sport anything other than football is in the significant minority.

I did have a hope that the demise of Rangers would help Glasgow's crowds, and especially since it is a much nicer environment to take your kids, but this doesn't seem to have happened really.  Glasgow's crowds are up, but even last season when they were riding high the crowds should have been a lot better.

What really annoys me is that the quality of Scottish football is so shockingly poor just now. It is awful, yet clubs regularly get crowds of 10000-15000 people watching - we really need to tempt some of the rugby sympathisers away from football. Easier said than done...

Tell the Rangers fans that a few thousand Celtic fans are over watching Glasgow play!  The place should fill up... especially after someone tells the Celtic fans that Rangers fans have told them to stay away from the Glasgow games

I know very little about either sets of fans actually (football ain't my thing) only that they wouldn't be best mates and stuff   .... but through rugby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????  You never ever know.

Trying not to be overly pretentious here, but the type of person that wouldn't want to sit next to a Rangers or Celtic fan at a Glasgow game is the type of person that would never come to a rugby game.

[SecretFly]

Never is a long time though. There could be a meejha campaign. "Bring along an Enemy and lets get behind Glasgow!!!"

The Irish rugby team is Celtic and Rangers fans in the one ground in ways!....

[tigertattie]

How did we end up talking about the great unwashed and their blue and green wendyball clubs???

[Nematode]

Just managed to delete my post before sending it...

In short, to improve the Scottish game with current funding and teams:

I) Move Edinburgh to Maggotland with temp seating to inc capacity to 5K
II) Play a couple of rabo games at Netherdale and Melrose in the afternoon on a Saturday or Sunday, I'd go for the September/early October games or concluding ones for best light.
III) 3G pitch for Glasgow
IV) Get SJ to pick his XV with his coaching staff and then get Lineen & coaches of his choice to pick a secondary XV. Play a 60 Min, 30 min half, game at Melrose in the summer (well cotter etc... I know but the idea). So in effect: [*presumed in if fit]

Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) MAITLAND, Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)VISSER, Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby); Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors), Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

VS [If fit]

Tonks, Fife, Bennett, Horne, Lamont, Heathcote, Cusiter; Welsh, MacArthur, Cross, J Gray, Gilchrist, Brown, Rennie, Denton

Whoever wins is coach for the year.

[tigertattie]

not sure Bourghmuir would be too happy with Edinburgh taking over thier ground on a permanent basis!

[Nematode]

BREAKING:

SJ has picked an uncapped youngster at hooker from Australia to start for the France game...













From the Scoatsman (From BAhhhlan [sorry] Massie)



SRU Statement "Scott    Johnson is excited to see what the famous Richie Gray's long-lost cousin, Goat Gray, can offer later in the tournament. A convert from Australian Goaty, Goat Gray has remarkably never lost a game of Rugby. Johnson remarked "the kid plays like Richie and has good resolve so we want to give him a shot in the saddle. He's fiercely competitive and is great in the contact area".

This selection has drawn criticism from Peter Wright, remarking that he has never played Rugby and it's bizarre playing him in an international human game. Nicol queried how he could hold the ball, but that is something that all Scots also cannot do. Yet Cuttitta believes this is a key signing that will significantly improve the front row, for Goat's ability to use his FOUR feet and not be penalised.

Hope that lightened the mood  

[Majestic83]

Notch, While it is interesting to know what improvements Irish rugby has made and to learn what is at the root of your recent successes, there are some very specific and simply things wrong with the Scottish game which would actually be very easily addressed - by way of example, here are a few:
(i) the private schools and clubs continue to compete in separate competitions, thus denying a real opportunity to foster a higher level of competition - the problem lies with intransigence on both sides, but particularly the private schools who appear reluctant to give up their schools cup
(ii) too big a jump between prem 1 and the pro game, so whilst the coach of Gala might feel that his players are missing out solely because of lack of 'opportunity', its clear that the pro coaches don't believe his players can make the leap - and when the clubs (incl Gala) get the opportunity to reduce prem 1 to a smaller number of semi-pro teams that might better bridge the gap, then the clubs vote against that initiative
(iii) talent tends to be identified very early in the Scottish rugby world (I remember as a kid being sent off to various SRU camps at Struan in the summer) and it is very difficult for late-developers to break into the national conscience without having been groomed from an early age - again, this is easily fixed, with better structures that tie schools and junior clubs to senior clubs, senior clubs to pro districts in a far tighter way than they are already and ensuring that as many kids remain in the game as long as possible and don't get put off for missing out on national selection stuff too early

PS The Borders may only have 8 or so senior clubs, but that's way more than the area from Dundee to Aberdeen, as far as I know; clearly in terms of population and paying supporters that is quite different

I thought that about the area from Dundee to Aberdeen and then around the Aberdeen area that there wasn't many rugby clubs and the main ones being Aberdeen Grammar but since I have been in Aberdeen since July I have been surprised how many there are around the area.
They obviously aren't all playing in the top leagues but there are alot of clubs and all seem to get good support on match days and the playing numbers are pretty high. A lot of the clubs getting at least 2 teams out a week which is more than can be said for down Edinburgh way and especially into the Borders. Played against a few of the Border teams last season and was told that a few of them were really struggling for players and couldn't put 2nd teams out quite a few times.
Played against Aberdeenshire in prem 3 a few weeks back and was surprised at the crowd turn out for that game which was a very wet and cold day. Rugby up in the North East definitely seems to be popular and growing.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

From the nonsense Hootsmon:

Johnnie Beattie airs concerns on Scotland system

by DAVID FERGUSON

JOHNNIE Beattie is a man of independent mind. He has irked coaches in the past with his desire to speak out when he does not agree. At times, he has also been criticised for being lazy when those who have coached will know that such a complaint often owes more to a lack of understanding between coach and player.

Scotland’s interim head coach Scott Johnson has restored Beattie to the back row for tomorrow’s RBS Six Nations Championship match in Italy for several reasons, but one ironically is that he believes him to be a more tireless worker off the ball than David Denton, despite the youngster’s superb ball-carrying efforts in the opening two games.

As Denton works to improve his ‘footballing’ skills, former Glasgow Schools footballer Beattie is coming back into the team having spent a few years flirting with conflicting demands to become more physical, destructive and tireless. A move to Montpellier in 2012 helped him clear the mind and realise that what he did offer as a ball-playing No 8 remained an attractive commodity in the modern era’s bish-bash-bosh.

But can it provide the spark Scotland needs? He is eager to try and prove that he can in Rome, but remains concerned at Scotland’s drop-off in recent Tests, and with his trademark style admitted to sharing the concern of many correspondents in the wake of the Calcutta Cup defeat over Scotland’s struggles to develop its own talent.

“I try to explain our Scottish system to people in France, and they don’t believe it,” he said, reflecting a reaction common around the leading rugby nations. “In saying that, every country has its flaws. The French proclaim that they have this fantastic league, but their fantastic league is 80 percent foreign guys while the English system is working well because they produce purely English kids through their academies.

“I feel very lucky for the chances and opportunities I was afforded in Scottish rugby, but I think that so many quality kids out there don’t get the opportunity. We produce guys like Chris Hoy and Andy Murray in different sports. In rugby we produce players like Stuart Hogg and Richie Gray who go on Lions tours. We are capable of producing these people.

“But, I don’t think we are getting the best out of ourselves in rugby in terms of the number of kids playing the game and coming through. If we widen our base, make it as big as we can, we will have better talent and be in a better state at the top, but I don’t think our net is as wide as it should be within our structures in Scotland to allow people to come through.”

Beattie’s generation of teenage talent knew what it was to beat England, Beattie doing so at under-18 and under-21 levels – he also drew 15-15 in his first Calcutta Cup match – but very few of his era have made it. Scotland skipper Greig Laidlaw played with Beattie at under-18s, and finally made it to a cap in his 26th year, while scrum-half Lee Dickson played for Scotland under-19s with Beattie before switching allegiance to England. Of the 30 or so involved a decade ago, they are the only ones Six Nations supporters can acclaim now.

Beattie cites Rory Thompson as an equally talented back row, with whom he shared game-time, but Beattie got a chance to play with Glasgow due to injuries. Thompson had no offer and joined the Army.

“I got a chance because Jonny Petrie, my [Glasgow] skipper at the time, injured his shoulder and I got to play 20 games in the Celtic League when I was 18. That was just luck. There are heaps of other guys who never get that chance.

“There was a decision made at under 18 between me and Rory. I got pushed ahead and he got left behind. He didn’t get a chance. He went to university, army, lost interest in rugby and didn’t continue. He was like me at the same age. I was part of the Scottish Institute of Sport, so had two or three years of weight training behind me – physically I was ready, mentally I was hungry for it and wanted to play. And I got the chance, but I was lucky that I got it at the time. There are lots of kids in Scotland not getting that chance.”

That is at the heart of the debate, particularly when Edinburgh are pursuing a plan to make the team more competitive which relies heavily on imported players. Beattie hoped his move to France might have helped to expose more young Scots at Glasgow, such as flanker Adam Ashe, and questioned how the Scottish structure could be changed to give players like Ashe an opportunity.

“I have discussed this with other guys in the camp. If the Italians leave and Wales go and play in the English league, could we have our own Scottish league? A Scottish pro league where we get our own house in order before we think about other things? If that was to be the way forward, and I don’t know if it is, then the standard would not be great at the start, but in ten or 15 years’ time you’re hoping you have developed enough players.”

This discussion stemmed from the reaction to the Calcutta Cup defeat and how it had widened the debate to all that is wrong in Scottish rugby, but Beattie quickly brought it back to the Italy game which remains at the forefront of his mind.

“The squad put in a decent shift for the first 40 minutes against Ireland, but we have been dross for the last game and a half we have played together,” Beattie said, typically bluntly. “In terms of that highlighting the shortcomings of the Scottish structure, I don’t know.

“We didn’t do our jobs properly, but we also kicked away a lot of possession and defended for 80 percent of the game against England. Mathematically, you’re not going to win any games if you are defending for 80 percent of the time. If we can hold ball, play a bit better, test them, organise ourselves, go forward and try and crack them there is no reason why we can’t go and get a win.

“I 100 percent believe our squad is capable of going to Italy and winning, but in general I believe, and I’ve believed it for a long time, that we could also change our structure in Scotland and do things better to make the most of what we have. Definitely.”

Right, put JB jnr in charge of the whole shebang NOW

[Nematode]

From the nonsense Hootsmon:

Johnnie Beattie airs concerns on Scotland system

   by DAVID FERGUSON

JOHNNIE Beattie is a man of independent mind. He has irked coaches in the past with his desire to speak out when he does not agree. At times, he has also been criticised for being lazy when those who have coached will know that such a complaint often owes more to a lack of understanding between coach and player.

Scotland’s interim head coach Scott Johnson has restored Beattie to the back row for tomorrow’s RBS Six Nations Championship match in Italy for several reasons, but one ironically is that he believes him to be a more tireless worker off the ball than David Denton, despite the youngster’s superb ball-carrying efforts in the opening two games.

As Denton works to improve his ‘footballing’ skills, former Glasgow Schools footballer Beattie is coming back into the team having spent a few years flirting with conflicting demands to become more physical, destructive and tireless. A move to Montpellier in 2012 helped him clear the mind and realise that what he did offer as a ball-playing No 8 remained an attractive commodity in the modern era’s bish-bash-bosh.

But can it provide the spark Scotland needs? He is eager to try and prove that he can in Rome, but remains concerned at Scotland’s drop-off in recent Tests, and with his trademark style admitted to sharing the concern of many correspondents in the wake of the Calcutta Cup defeat over Scotland’s struggles to develop its own talent.

“I try to explain our Scottish system to people in France, and they don’t believe it,” he said, reflecting a reaction common around the leading rugby nations. “In saying that, every country has its flaws. The French proclaim that they have this fantastic league, but their fantastic league is 80 percent foreign guys while the English system is working well because they produce purely English kids through their academies.

“I feel very lucky for the chances and opportunities I was afforded in Scottish rugby, but I think that so many quality kids out there don’t get the opportunity. We produce guys like Chris Hoy and Andy Murray in different sports. In rugby we produce players like Stuart Hogg and Richie Gray who go on Lions tours. We are capable of producing these people.

“But, I don’t think we are getting the best out of ourselves in rugby in terms of the number of kids playing the game and coming through. If we widen our base, make it as big as we can, we will have better talent and be in a better state at the top, but I don’t think our net is as wide as it should be within our structures in Scotland to allow people to come through.”

Beattie’s generation of teenage talent knew what it was to beat England, Beattie doing so at under-18 and under-21 levels – he also drew 15-15 in his first Calcutta Cup match – but very few of his era have made it. Scotland skipper Greig Laidlaw played with Beattie at under-18s, and finally made it to a cap in his 26th year, while scrum-half Lee Dickson played for Scotland under-19s with Beattie before switching allegiance to England. Of the 30 or so involved a decade ago, they are the only ones Six Nations supporters can acclaim now.

Beattie cites Rory Thompson as an equally talented back row, with whom he shared game-time, but Beattie got a chance to play with Glasgow due to injuries. Thompson had no offer and joined the Army.

“I got a chance because Jonny Petrie, my [Glasgow] skipper at the time, injured his shoulder and I got to play 20 games in the Celtic League when I was 18. That was just luck. There are heaps of other guys who never get that chance.

“There was a decision made at under 18 between me and Rory. I got pushed ahead and he got left behind. He didn’t get a chance. He went to university, army, lost interest in rugby and didn’t continue. He was like me at the same age. I was part of the Scottish Institute of Sport, so had two or three years of weight training behind me – physically I was ready, mentally I was hungry for it and wanted to play. And I got the chance, but I was lucky that I got it at the time. There are lots of kids in Scotland not getting that chance.”

That is at the heart of the debate, particularly when Edinburgh are pursuing a plan to make the team more competitive which relies heavily on imported players. Beattie hoped his move to France might have helped to expose more young Scots at Glasgow, such as flanker Adam Ashe, and questioned how the Scottish structure could be changed to give players like Ashe an opportunity.

“I have discussed this with other guys in the camp. If the Italians leave and Wales go and play in the English league, could we have our own Scottish league? A Scottish pro league where we get our own house in order before we think about other things? If that was to be the way forward, and I don’t know if it is, then the standard would not be great at the start, but in ten or 15 years’ time you’re hoping you have developed enough players.”

This discussion stemmed from the reaction to the Calcutta Cup defeat and how it had widened the debate to all that is wrong in Scottish rugby, but Beattie quickly brought it back to the Italy game which remains at the forefront of his mind.

“The squad put in a decent shift for the first 40 minutes against Ireland, but we have been dross for the last game and a half we have played together,” Beattie said, typically bluntly. “In terms of that highlighting the shortcomings of the Scottish structure, I don’t know.

“We didn’t do our jobs properly, but we also kicked away a lot of possession and defended for 80 percent of the game against England. Mathematically, you’re not going to win any games if you are defending for 80 percent of the time. If we can hold ball, play a bit better, test them, organise ourselves, go forward and try and crack them there is no reason why we can’t go and get a win.

“I 100 percent believe our squad is capable of going to Italy and winning, but in general I believe, and I’ve believed it for a long time, that we could also change our structure in Scotland and do things better to make the most of what we have. Definitely.”

Right, put JB jnr in charge of the whole shebang NOW

Wow... Hold the horses

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12505/9175740/six-nations-blame-scotlands-players-not-the-coach-says-johnnie-beattie

Johnnie Beattie says it is the players who should be blamed for Scotland's poor start to this season's Six Nations' Championship - not coach Scott Johnson.

The Montpellier No 8 starts Saturday's match against Italy in Rome where the Scots will hope to secure their first victory of the campaign.

Their most recent encounter was a 20-0 defeat to England at Murrayfield but Beattie says: "We get the opportunity to run out there for Scotland and we have stuffed up twice.

"We haven't done our individual jobs properly and have paid the price twice.

"That's what it comes down to. It's the boys who take the pitch and who play.

Criticism

"I understand the criticism. As a Scotland supporter myself, I have been pretty dejected after the last two performances myself.

"I can understand everyone's frustrations and it is easy to see why the reaction has been like it has.

"But as for Johnno and the guys he works with, they are the heads of our team and are running the show, so they are easy guys to take pot-shots at.

"But our group has not changed that much. It's 30 or 40 guys who have been representing Scottish rugby for the last five years.

"Taking pot-shots at Johnno is one thing but realistically it is an easy dig. We, as players, are the guys who lost the game and that is a fact."

  

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm even more pleased by that second statement. It is the players who take the field and I certainly wouldn't want players blaming the coach in public. If there are issues between the coaches and players, I don't want to be hearing about it in the press.

I'm impressed by Beattie's comments, and pleased he feels that way. This is a big chance for him in this game, and a huge challenge facing Parisse, who always plays well. Denton has been dropped for playing well, a mark of incompetence from SJ, but I think most of us feel that there's room for both Denton and Beattie in the squad, even if not starting together. It's just a shame that Wilson is at 6. Difficult for an 8 to shine without a top quality 6 doing the grunt work (and I don't mean to criticise Wilson).

I'm sure Beattie would be more comfortable in his role at 8 with Brown, Harley or Strokosch on the blindside.

Still, we're looking for a captain for the World Cup, and more statements like that off the field, and some big performances on it, and Beattie could be a strong candidate.

[tigertattie]

Always respected Beattie. You guys already know my thoughts on Denton so with Beattie starting I'm hoping he can shine and cement his place in the team at 8.

I hope Beattie does some of his merry little runs, you know, the ones where he runs into space, beats defenders and looks to offload. BUt I also hope he gets fired into the rucks as none of our forwards have been doing this.

Big Ritchie needs to hold his hand up as one of the ruck inspectors and needs to address this. Swinson needs to go back to doing what he used to do.

Need a big game from everyone

[Nematode]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4BaJ0tC0XQ

Richie Gray is immense in form. Here's hoping he brings that to Italy.

Here's a suggestion. Why doesn't SJ tie a 8m elastic rope from Richie Gray to Tommy Seymour or Chris Fusaro in training and one from Hogg to Scott and Lamont so that they are used to always being there to SUPPORT him when he makes a run.

[George Carlin]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

[Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4BaJ0tC0XQ

Richie Gray is immense in form. Here's hoping he brings that to Italy.

Here's a suggestion. Why doesn't SJ tie a 8m elastic rope from Richie Gray to Tommy Seymour or Chris Fusaro in training and one from Hogg to Scott and Lamont so that they are used to always being there to SUPPORT him when he makes a run.

That's a fantastic idea!! Although maybe get Lamont to support Gray, not sure he would keep up with Hogg!

[BigGee]

Beattie is maturing no doubt. never looked like captaincy material in the past but saw him leading Montpellier in the HK and was doing a pretty good job. Glad to see he is finally taking on board that he is now one of the senior players in the squad, a leader and I agree captaincy potential. There are not to many others in that position putting their hands up for it at the moment.

A good game tomorrow when he could nail down his place and that might be a reality going onwards.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

Feicin pensioners - perhaps they'll plead for Scotland to 'stay with us' like the other OAP

[Notch]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

What necromancy is this?

[funnyExiledScot]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

Not sure that beats a Chinese, two large bottles of Innis & Gunn and watching Wales vs France......

  

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

Not sure that beats a Chinese, two large bottles of Innis & Gunn and watching Wales vs France......

  

Steady laddie   

[jimbopip]

I have little to add to the actual subject matter of this thread, but I really want to tell people that I'm going to see the Rolling Stones live tonight. No, really.

Not sure that beats a Chinese, two large bottles of Innis & Gunn and watching Wales vs France......

  

I saw them at the Glasgow Apollo yonks ago. I was telling a colleague who had been their stage manager for a couple of tours that my memeory of the gig was they were pedestrian, almost boring, for about three quarters of it then they seemed to waken up and really let rip. She smiled knowingly and said that was fairly standard practice for them. And that was before they got their bus passes. still, you will enjoy it, probably more than tomorrow afternoon.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Aye Jimbo but would still rather have Keef as our coach than Rab Total Erse C !!!!!!

[Nematode]

Q: If you were Vern Cotter, what would be your one most important action you'd be planning (seriously) right now in anticipation of taking over from    ?

For me, I'd be compiling a list of "Play now, Reserve , Reject" players:

In my "play now" camp (players I'd be happy to see playing NOW, I'd have:

Grant, MacArthur, Cross, Welsh, Hall, Reid; J Gray, R Gray, Gilchrist; Stoker, Beattie, Denton, Brown, Fusaro, Rennie, Barlcay; Cusiter, Weir, Tonks; Maitland, Hogg, Murchie; Dunbar, Scott, Bennett, Horne

Reserve iFuture (youngsters/potential) & Tested i.e. capped - to take place in case of injury/future potential

Fraser Brown, Alex Allan, Steven Lawrie (my knowledge of FR is as good as SJ's); Ryder, Swinson; Harley, Eddie, Wilson, Grant, Watson, Ashe; Hart, Prygos, Laidlaw; Russell, Millar, Heathcote, Tonks; Tom Brown, Seymour, Fife, Jamie Farndale

* I may have missed some people out, sorry.

Rejects - players that have had their time and should hang up their boots to open up opportunities in the squad:

Ross Ford, Jim Hamilton & Ruairdh Jackson

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Why is Tonks in 'play now' and what has he done exactly to deserve this ?   

[Guest]

And with Scotlands resources i wouldn't be telling a young fly half to hang his boots up! If you're playing well you are in with a shot with a bit of grace from that for the year and a half leading to world cup

[Nematode]

Why is Tonks in 'play now' and what has he done exactly to deserve this ?   

Oops, didn't mean to put him in there. I'll change it.

[Nematode]

And with Scotlands resources i wouldn't be telling a young fly half to hang his boots up!  If you're playing well you are in with a shot with a bit of grace from that for the year and a half leading to world cup

My feeling is that we should be seeing the finished article from him. He's had over 100 apps for Glasgow, 23 caps for Scotland, so he should be experienced enough to be of good quality - he's had time to develop his game. Yet his goal kicking is still woeful, mediocre at best, and although he can bring the backs into the game, he's consistently inconsistent in pulling it off. His defence is generally good but his form fluctuates too wildly given his experience.

When we have talent like (Lee Millar & Finn Russell)1, and (Tom Heathcote and Greig Tonks)2, I'd like to see (them develop their club game)1 and (get 'time in the saddle')2 to see what other options we have available. Because let's face it, we're like the Queen shopping at poundland - we just don't have quality.

And Jackson has had ample time to take the keys to 10, but hasn't.

So I think he should give way to new talent.

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