The Scottish International Rugby Thread

[R!skysports]

First topic message reminder :

As a die hard Scotland rugby supporter, over the years I have been dragged through the mill. Poor selections, poor coaches and poor players.

Through thick and thin I have bleed blue, but is it time to say, enough is enough.

The incompetence and down right corruption* at the sru means I have been supporting a system and structure that, is to be frank, not deserving of my support.

When is it time to say, enough is enough. You shall not take my support for granted, and I will not support that was of space that is the sru.

Can we evoke change and move away from the old blazers who are destroying our game

Should we stop watching our team who currently make a fool of themselves


I am getting close to saying yes. I am almost at the point I do not care about our team And will sod off to go shopping this weekend


Our continued passion means our support ratifies the sru. Is it time to go on strike to show our displeasure, even if that means we miss out of watching our passion.

Can we affect the outcome

Your a dispirited and depressed Scotsman




*no proof of real corruption, but certainly an ability to corrupt the supporter


BUT I SUPPORT SCOTLAND TO THE END - GO SCOTLAND

(edited text, as the super duper mix tape of threads needed a most positive intro :-)

[Captain_Sensible]

I'd not drop fusaro but Denton would be binned. Why do folk say he had a good game?

He never passed or offloaded. He never made it over the gain line. Beattie did far more when he came on.

12 carries, 56m made, no offloads, 6 tackles made, 1 missed = Dozer

and most of those metres were made from him getting the ball deep and legging it up to the opposition.

How many metres did he make over the gain line - Zero

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. He crashed through the gainline on a number of occasions. Support was poor and our ruck clearance was slow, so not much was made of the momentum he provided.

[TJ]

I agree with the captain -

[HammerofThunor]

Granted it was pretty poor. But England were camped out in your half and you didn't leak anywhere near as many points as you could have so I don't think their heads went completely. Also the lineout malfunctioning generally screws up any team (especially when you're used to it being done). The 2007 WC final wasn't much of a contest mainly because we couldn't win our own lineout ball.

It's something that is often seen when a coach/manager is on his way out. You would think that the players would want to be showing the new coach what they have but instead it sometimes appears like they have no life. I'm sure Vern will be the kick up the backside Scottish rugby needs.

Personally I think there should be promotion and relegation from the 6 nations (with a home and away playoff, when these games would be played I have no idea).

[tigertattie]

And remember, Meantball is currently booting the ball away under the order of SJ.

If Meatball doesnt boot it, Laidlaw boots it.

Plus the forwards need to give the half backs some decent ball.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Still angry

[RuggerRadge2611]

Granted it was pretty poor. But England were camped out in your half and you didn't leak anywhere near as many points as you could have so I don't think their heads went completely.

murrayfield itself saved our blushes hammer.

[tigertattie]

No he never. He never broke a single tackle. He's been found out. Hit him hard, hit him low and down he goes. Doesn't do any of the "dirty" work like clearing out rucks. Doesn't pass.

Its frustrating because I know he could be a really good player!

[Captain_Sensible]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

[RuggerRadge2611]

No he never.  He never broke a single tackle. He's been found out. Hit him hard, hit him low and down he goes. Doesn't do any of the "dirty" work like clearing out rucks. Doesn't pass.

Its frustrating because I know he could be a really good player!

Disagree Tiger,

Denton + Beattie were the only guys who kept the English defence honest. Denton and Fusaro were the only 2 guys who IMO's stock went up at the weekend

[R!skysports]

And remember, Meantball is currently booting the ball straight into touch under the order of SJ.

If Meatball doesnt boot it, Laidlaw boots it.

Plus the forwards need to give the half backs some decent ball.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Still angry

Fixed for you

[MacKnocked-on]

Fusaro did OK but I'm sure Barclay would have been a better and more effective pick for the match. I really hope Cotter has a clear plan on how to improve things, and quickly. Certainly hope he hasn't had any input in to the current state of affairs.

[Taffineastbourne]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

[Captain_Sensible]

Fusaro did OK but I'm sure Barclay would have been a better and more effective pick for the match. I really hope Cotter has a clear plan on how to improve things, and quickly. Certainly hope he hasn't had any input in to the current state of affairs.  

I am very, very worried about this possibility.

[Captain_Sensible]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

OK, that's your opinion. I know plenty of non-Scots who wouldn't agree with you.

[RDW]

Tiger - think you're in the minority on this one!

[RuggerRadge2611]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

An absolute pathetic WUM. I distinctly remember Glasgow caning full strength Munster and Ospreys teams last year and also embarrased the Dragons at Rodney Parade.

[HammerofThunor]

To be fair to Taff, it wouldn't be the Scots picking. It would be others picking guys from any team. I've got to say I agree with him. If I could pick any number of guys from the 6 nations teams to bolster England, none of them would be Scottish. If I had to pick guys from Scotland over the English equivalent...maybe some of them but probably none if all the English guys were fit.

[TJ]

On form now - few if any Scots would get into any other team. On actual ability a few would if they were playing to their potential.

[Taffineastbourne]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

An absolute pathetic WUM. I distinctly remember Glasgow caning full strength Munster and Ospreys teams last year and also embarrased the Dragons at Rodney Parade.

Far from it.Just a whiff of reality.I honestly cannot remember when Scotland last beat Wales.Perhaps if you got foreigners to bolster your National side you would be competitive.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

An absolute pathetic WUM. I distinctly remember Glasgow caning full strength Munster and Ospreys teams last year and also embarrased the Dragons at Rodney Parade.

Far from it.Just a whiff of reality.I honestly cannot remember when Scotland last beat Wales.Perhaps if you got foreigners to bolster your National side you would be competitive.

You enjoy kicking us while we are down eh?

Take your comments elsehwere if you have nothing constructive to add.

The point I'm trying to make is that our players are actually pretty good. The coaching staff and selection has let them all down.

[TJ]

Taff - when in a hole stop digging. You look foolish.

[tigertattie]

I shall sit in the corner humbled   

Beattie is still better though   

Changing the tone slightly, we're off to Rome next. Normally we get some rather pleasent weather over there. Who knows, a nice still, sunny day with a firm pitch underfoot, the players may be told to adopt a running game instead of this kick chase nonsense!

[RuggerRadge2611]

I shall sit in the corner humbled   

Beattie is still better though   

Changing the tone slightly, we're off to Rome next. Normally we get some rather pleasent weather over there. Who knows, a nice still, sunny day with a firm pitch underfoot, the players may be told to adopt a running game instead of this kick chase nonsense!

[tigertattie]

many thanks

I found myself doing a Brian Moore on Sat and started shouting "stop bloody kicking it"

This is what shows Johnson as an untter poopie coach. We have a lineout with a success of less than 50% but our tactic is to kick the ball to touch all the time!

Genius

Sheer genius

[Taffineastbourne]

I know that folk get jingoistic about Lions selection so I could understand the Scots posters banging the drum for their favourites.
Results and performances do not lie.
How many of your players would make the starting XV of the other 6N's?Even Italy would graciously decline most.
SJ cannot work miracles.He is a plank,mind!

If they're given the ball, our back three (Hogg, Maitland, Visser) are as dangerous as any in the NH. The Italian coach would sell his grandmother to have them in his team. The same probably goes for our centres and one or two of our second rows.

The calibre of player we have isn't the issue, as Scotland has always had to deal with a smaller playing-pool than most, and current crop are pretty promising. Under SJ we've gone backwards in our forwards and he hasn't made use of our new, talented backs.

If given total licence to pick any player from any team no Scottish player would make the side.Nor the second or third or fourth picks.

An absolute pathetic WUM. I distinctly remember Glasgow caning full strength Munster and Ospreys teams last year and also embarrased the Dragons at Rodney Parade.

Far from it.Just a whiff of reality.I honestly cannot remember when Scotland last beat Wales.Perhaps if you got foreigners to bolster your National side you would be competitive.

You enjoy kicking us while we are down eh?

Take your comments elsehwere if you have nothing constructive to add.

The point I'm trying to make is that our players are actually pretty good. The coaching staff and selection has let them all down.

Open your mind and get real.Far from a fan of SJ but he is yet another in a long line of coaches of Scotland who cop the blame for poor Scottish sides.Hansen,Gatland et al could not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
As to kicking Scotland when they are down ,that is unwarranted,unfair and unjust.I am of an age that witnessed high calibre Scottish players like Calder,Irvine,Sole,Renwick,Rutherford,Brown.This current crop are nowhere near that level.
If you do not manage expectations you will end up torturing yourself.

[MacKnocked-on]

The kicking tactic makes for extremely depressing viewing, especially when we don't execute it well. We seem to be the only team who constantly kicks long at restarts, giving ourselves no chance of competing for the ball. When I watched the Rugby League World Cup last year it was clear that the good old grubber kick was still a very effective tactic, why don't we see that used in Union more? Certainly better than the god awful box kicking from scrumhalfs.

[TJ]

Taff - you are simply wrong. these players are good players badly coached. Myself and many other scots fans know they are the best for a generation suffering under useless coaches.

[beshocked]

Hogg should stay at 15. My suggestion would be for Edinburgh to sign McHeathcote and hope he can become a candidate at 10.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Hogg should stay at 15. My suggestion would be for Edinburgh to sign McHeathcote and hope he can become a candidate at 10.

Want a job at the SRU?   

[Taffineastbourne]

Taff - you are simply wrong.  these players are good players badly coached.  Myself and many other scots fans know they are the best for a generation suffering under useless coaches.

TJ,year after year the Scottish have moaned about their coaches.Can they all be bad or maybe,just maybe,the players have not been there.

[SneakySideStep]

I thought that was one of the most abject performances I've ever seen from an international team. Absolutely directionless. Given the appalling conditions, you'd at least expect to see players making a nuisance of themselves, as having the ball can be a real liability. But no, Scotland made life very easy for England. Yes there is a real dearth of talent in Scotland and they don't have international quality in several positions, but you'd still expect to see passion and commitment - surely the coach takes a big share of the blame for that.

[TJ]

We have had a succession of Crap coaches. Williams - a windbag. Haddon and Robinson - out of their depth. Now Johnson - a man with a record of failure upon failure and a useless coach

[RuggerRadge2611]

Taff - you are simply wrong.  these players are good players badly coached.  Myself and many other scots fans know they are the best for a generation suffering under useless coaches.

TJ,year after year the Scottish have moaned about their coaches.Can they all be bad or maybe,just maybe,the players have not been there.

Johnson finished the Ireland game with 3 number 8s whilst Rennie, Barclay and Strokosch watched from home.

Hamilton and Ford who couldn't run a bath never mind a lineout are picked time and time again whilst Gray, MacArthur and others are left in the stands.

Even you must see that Johnson is picking the wrong guys? You might be on the wind up but you're not thick mate

[beshocked]

Hogg should stay at 15. My suggestion would be for Edinburgh to sign McHeathcote and hope he can become a candidate at 10.

Want a job at the SRU?   

I would probably get too frustated and quit after the first day at the job.

Other things I would do are sack Scott Johnson and his coaches on the spot. Have all coaching selections made by the Scottish posters on 606v2 with a select few being given the honour of coaching Scotland for the rest of the 6 nations.

[tigertattie]

How cool would that be if we got to coach Scotland for the rest of the 6 nations? As represenatives of the Scottish rugby community!!!

Wins over Italy, France and Wales!!!

They'd make a film about it!

[GLove39]

Scotland season pass £150
Return train from Aberdeen to Edinburgh £34
Pre & post match pints & food £25

Scotland's performace priceless urine poor & a total waste of my money

[GLove39]

Having said that I'll be back to watch them against France due to the wonders of that Season Pass... (currently suffering buyers remorse)
But ultimately like everyone no I'll never stop supporting them.

[Mr Bounce]

My Grandmother was Half Scottish and I've been there twice. Do I qualify??

[R!skysports]

How cool would that be if we got to coach Scotland for the rest of the 6 nations? As represenatives of the Scottish rugby community!!!

Wins over Italy, France and Wales!!!

They'd make a film about it!

It would have to have a heart tearing loss of the team - so I propose that when we are half way through, ASBO 'gets left behind' - he does it with a light heart and for the team..

[Guest]

My Grandmother was Half Scottish and I've been there twice. Do I qualify??  

Can you throw a straight ball and stick your foot out in a scrum?

[funnyExiledScot]

A big fat "NO!" to Hogg moving to 10, at least not in the international arena until he's played professional rugby in that position at club level.

I'd stick with Weir for the rest of the tournament personally, but I'd have Jackson on the bench. Now that Scott is presumably fit and ready to play 80 minutes, I see no point in having Duncan Taylor on the bench.

The heart of the problems are the forwards, and SJ's appauling team selections. Our backline had nothing to work with, and most of the kicking, albeit poorly executed, can as a result of our pack being driven backwards.

I'm absolutely furious with Scott Johnson. The team selection was a dog's breakfast. We said it before the game, and were proven 100% correct. He was wrong - completely and utterly wrong. We have hired a circus clown as a Director or Rugby for the foreseeable future. My only hope is that my suspicions as to what a DoR actually does are proven correct. The SRU should now work to marginalise his input as much as possible. He doesn't know what he's doing.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Absolutely damning assesment of Johnsons Performance.

Six Nations 2014: Scott Johnson's wisecracks must stop while the joke is on Scotland

The final whistle brought no end to Scottish suffering after their interim head coach delivered a monologue of brazen self-exculpation

Where to begin with Scotland? They enjoy a good dissection in Edinburgh’s famous anatomy classrooms, but even Burke and Hare would struggle to find a buyer for a cadaver as far gone as this one.

The Scots were wretched in every area bar last-ditch defence on Saturday. The nematode worms which have taken up residence in the Murrayfield pitch had a more obvious attack strategy than the Scottish players. Come to think of it, those root-munching parasites might also have done much to keep England’s scoreline so low.

Had Jonny May, Luther Burrell and Mike Brown not been wading through slurry then would surely posted more points. Scotland, by crushing contrast, could have played until the middle of next week and still finished with a big fat zero.

It was probably just as well that David Cameron made his speech about shared national identity on Friday, for it would have been a difficult argument to sustain in the aftermath of this match. In the way the two teams played, the distance between Scotland and England could not have been made more clear by the dynamiting of Hadrian’s Wall and its replacement with a mile-wide canal.

England identified themselves as Six Nations title contenders; Scotland could be grateful that they had a place in the championship at all.

All of which was bad enough, but the final whistle brought no end to Scottish suffering. For in his after-match comments, Scotland interim head coach Scott Johnson delivered a monologue of such brazen self-exculpation that you half expected it to end with a couple of figures in white coats gently steering him away and off to a place where he could himself no further harm.

It was peppered with the sort of affectations and wisecracks that make Johnson amusing company on first meeting, but which wear rather thin over time. By Saturday evening, his act was threadbare entertainment, for when you stop laughing at Johnson’s jokes you realise how little substance there is to anything he says.

Johnson’s self-serving narrative, as reprised after every other defeat, was that he is building for the future. To give it some sort of force, he talked about the youth, inexperience and naivety of his players. Which was all very well for a soundbite on the Saturday evening sports bulletins, but the facts offered no support whatsoever for his case.

Scotland went into the Calcutta Cup match with more seasoned players, an average of 23 caps per man against England’s 20, and with age on their side, averaging almost 26 against England’s 24½.

In other words, they were not kids. And yet this is the term Johnson uses almost constantly when he talks about his team. Hilariously, he even suggested that he could have flicked a switch and put out a team that would have beaten England, but that there was somehow something noble in his refusal to pursue short-term gain at the expense of long-term team-building.

“I could have taken the really easy option and try and get a competitive side that could see us through,” he said. “I did not want to do that. I wanted Scotland to have a really good international team. I am prepared to take what I feel are the kids that can take us on that ride.”

This, of course, is arrant nonsense. It is also completely at odds with what he was saying just a few weeks ago when he explained that the focus now, after a series of games which genuinely did have a development element, would be on winning. Worse still, if he thinks Scottish rugby supporters are happy to see the Calcutta Cup used as some sort of selection experiment then he is in the wrong job now and he will be an even worse job when he takes over as national director of rugby at the end of this Six Nations.

But perhaps the most depressing element was that we have heard it all before. And in strikingly similar tones, for this is the same self-serving mumbo-jumbo that Johnson’s fellow Australian Matt Williams used to serve up when he coached Scotland for 18 calamitous months in 2004 and 2005. The Williams era was ended – with a record of one win in 10 Six Nations games - when the Scottish players staged a dressing-room revolt and made it clear that they were not going to be used as his scapegoats any longer.

It has not come to that yet with Johnson. But there was something in the bearing of the players on Saturday that hinted at increasing discomfort with their environment. If you wanted an image of the prevailing mood, then the expression on the face of Dave Denton, inexplicably substituted after 52 minutes in which he had stood out as Scotland’s best player, probably said it all.

For all Johnson’s talk, there is not a lot of scope for change ahead of the Italy game next week. Scott Lawson should take over from Ross Ford at hooker following a dreadful lineout performance; the popular vote would see Richie Gray return to the second row; the most radical move would be for Stuart Hogg to step up, as he clearly wants to, from full-back to fly-half.

Johnson is happy to tell the world that his players are a match for any side. Once in a while, it would be refreshing if he and they made that point on a pitch rather than in a press conference.

[Mr Bounce]

My Grandmother was Half Scottish and I've been there twice. Do I qualify??  

Can you throw a straight ball and stick your foot out in a scrum?

I was a hooker at school aged 14. But I was rubbish...

[blindsided]

My Grandmother was Half Scottish and I've been there twice. Do I qualify??  

Can you throw a straight ball and stick your foot out in a scrum?

I was a hooker at school aged 14. But I was rubbish...

Ross ford is aged 29 and was rubbish. There is at least the possibility that you have improved in the past few years...

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Pretty fair assessment all round, could've simplified it by just saying Johnson = a lot of hot air

Tiger may disagree with this since Denton clearly spilt his pint in the bar afterwards, but one of the most ball crushingly inexplicable moments of the match for me came when Denton was taken off but Wilson was left on, despite looking way out of his depth (at 6) in my opinion

[TJ]

Ford is not a bad player. Infact he is a very good player just one who is woefully out of form and needs to get out of the limelight to rediscover his game. He has the Yips when throwing.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

NO FFS!

why do we insist on trying to batter square pegs into round holes!

^ This.

[EWT Spoons]

Pretty fair assessment all round, could've simplified it by just saying Johnson = a lot of hot air

Tiger may disagree with this since Denton clearly spilt his pint in the bar afterwards, but one of the most ball crushingly inexplicable moments of the match for me came when Denton was taken off but Wilson was left on, despite looking way out of his depth (at 6) in my opinion

To be fair, taking Denton off was only the second worse choice he could have made. I fully expected Fusaro to be hooked (not because he deserved to be taken off) just so we had 3 No. 8s on the field again.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Hogg starts at 10 I'll be hugely disapointed. More so if Tommy Allen (similar age) shows him up in Rome.

Keep him at 15. Wales shipped Hook around and we shipped Paterson around.

Why do we feel the need to turn one of our best players into a jack of all trades and a master of Fock all.

Leave him at 15 and let him become a master.

[Guest]

Personally I support Hogg moving to 10 for this tournament as a kind of middle finger to any kind of rugby establishment or organisation (because that is clearly better than Johnson's version) and effectively the squad deciding between themselves what they should do.

Why not? It's not like we expect to beat Italy in 2 weeks. Although I could see us doing it narrowly (and by the way that will be no sort of redemption, one swallow, no summer).

[ChequeredJersey]

Surely Denton to 6, Beattie to 8 would have been a sane thing to do? Would have vastly improved the backrow balance

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