Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Sadly it is probably the truth though

I really hope Cave stars and Schmidt gets on the phone to Ulster and says
'You have to play him at 13 next year as Henshaw is not quite ready yet'

I'm hoping that Henshaw starts and puts in some really classy performances at 13. That would be ideal for me as I think he is the real deal. I think with Henshaw at 13 we could be in a pretty good place.

It could be that in the first test they play the Marshall-Cave axis with Henshaw's versatility on the bench and then promote Henshaw the week after, alas Cave will probably not make the bench as he only covers two positions (12/13)

Ps: I always wear white ankle socks in matches now, much more chilled out I think. Sounds weird but the proper socks make me feel like I'm playing an actual match but the ankle socks make it feel like training and relaxes me, always gets the best out of me too.....or else it's all a placebo.

The 40degree heat out here is a large decider in the decision making too though!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm hoping that Henshaw starts and puts in some really classy performances at 13. That would be ideal for me as I think he is the real deal. I think with Henshaw at 13 we could be in a pretty good place.

It could be that in the first test they play the Marshall-Cave axis with Henshaw's versatility on the bench and then promote Henshaw the week after, alas Cave will probably not make the bench as he only covers two positions (12/13)

Ps: I always wear white ankle socks in matches now, much more chilled out I think. Sounds weird but the proper socks make me feel like I'm playing an actual match but the ankle socks make it feel like training and relaxes me, always gets the best out of me too.....or else it's all a placebo.

The 40degree heat out here is a large decider in the decision making too though!

yeah right, you are all about the flash!!!!

Cave and Henshaw are both duds.

Drico will come back and save us in time for the RWC.

I'm starting a petition to get Darcy to shave his beard if Drico returns in time for the warm-up games.

I'd say the heat is getting to you Pete...

Don't get me started ME! 15minute walk and you're sweating your boll!x off out here.

Got a touch competition tomorrow. Mercifully it starts at 8am but will be going on til 12 or 1.......

Speaking of (shameless plug). If anyone is looking for a club in Dubai, check out Arabian Knights Rugby Football Club on facebook.
Rugby in the sun boys with more air hostesses and female teachers than you know what to do with, add in the drink culture and you've got a winner!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Don't get me started ME! 15minute walk and you're sweating your boll!x off out here.

Got a touch competition tomorrow. Mercifully it starts at 8am but will be going on til 12 or 1.......

Speaking of (shameless plug). If anyone is looking for a club in Dubai, check out Arabian Knights Rugby Football Club on facebook.  
Rugby in the sun boys with more air hostesses and female teachers than you know what to do with, add in the drink culture and you've got a winner!

How's the whole, living in an Islamic state working out? Is it just the heat that oppressive?

Mickado wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Don't get me started ME! 15minute walk and you're sweating your boll!x off out here.

Got a touch competition tomorrow. Mercifully it starts at 8am but will be going on til 12 or 1.......

Speaking of (shameless plug). If anyone is looking for a club in Dubai, check out Arabian Knights Rugby Football Club on facebook.  
Rugby in the sun boys with more air hostesses and female teachers than you know what to do with, add in the drink culture and you've got a winner!

How's the whole, living in an Islamic state working out? Is it just the heat that oppressive?

Truth be told it's a fake Islamic state. I've been in Morocco and that was a bit more genuine, here they are Islamic but all the rules are bent so that Westerners can have a good time. If they have a good time they will stay here and work. Work service and management jobs that the Emerati need them to work to run the country. There are next to no actual Emerati who live in Dubai they are the overwhelming minority.

As such, the drinking you're not allowed to do happens a lot.
The male/female thing is easily sidestepped as long as you don't flaunt about.

Little hard to take in regards to how rude a lot of people are out here and how culture-less it is but other than that it is a great place to live.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Mickado wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Don't get me started ME! 15minute walk and you're sweating your boll!x off out here.

Got a touch competition tomorrow. Mercifully it starts at 8am but will be going on til 12 or 1.......

Speaking of (shameless plug). If anyone is looking for a club in Dubai, check out Arabian Knights Rugby Football Club on facebook.  
Rugby in the sun boys with more air hostesses and female teachers than you know what to do with, add in the drink culture and you've got a winner!

How's the whole, living in an Islamic state working out? Is it just the heat that oppressive?

Truth be told it's a fake Islamic state. I've been in Morocco and that was a bit more genuine, here they are Islamic but all the rules are bent so that Westerners can have a good time. If they have a good time they will stay here and work. Work service and management jobs that the Emerati need them to work to run the country. There are next to no actual Emerati who live in Dubai they are the overwhelming minority.

As such, the drinking you're not allowed to do happens a lot.
The male/female thing is easily sidestepped as long as you don't flaunt about.

Little hard to take in regards to how rude a lot of people are out here and how culture-less it is but other than that it is a great place to live.

Having to sidestep male/female things, drinking even though you're not "supposed to", really it sounds like my idea of hell. But I'm glad you're enjoying it mate! You there indefinitely or on a contract?

A year and a half more mate then I may venture somewhere else...Columbia, Venezuala are this month's fancies

Sounds like being a teenager in Ireland in the late 70s early 80s. Except without the threat of jail. Although the outcome could have been worse if caught by your mother..

Is there any prospect of these matches being covered on TV?

I vaguely remember the last time Ireland played in Argentina RTE managed to do a last minute deal for coverage.

I hear they're going to be on radio but to cut costs - no commentary.

They are on Sky Sports

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/rugby-union-on-sky

Yup - coverage starts at 6.30pm I think.

Any coverage for Emerging Ireland aka the golden oldies?

by Notch on Tue May 27, 2014 10:58 am

They are on Sky Sports

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/rugby-union-on-sky

Bugger!!

rodders wrote:Yup - coverage starts at 6.30pm I think.

Any coverage for Emerging Ireland aka the golden oldies?

IRB are streaming that competition on the web as far as I know.

It's just the name that's wrong.  Emerging Ireland is just a term that means nothing to a bunch of people who feel they're either past it or that they should never have gotten on a plane to Ireland in the first place! (stand up Bent and bow)... or that they should be in Argentina with the real team.

Pis-sed Off Ireland is probably the name they should have.  Either that or The Dachshunds.

Sending this team to this competition (and Tiblisi) last year and the Romanians in the AIs is the IRFU making friends with who will be running rugby in a few years time, now that the French are in control of the IRB & the Rugby Chumps Cup. It will come in very handy in the bid for the bid to host the world cup.

New Zealand are on our side because didn't we support their bid?
England Scotland and Wales can't be seen to be against our bid given that the "I scratch your back and you then scratch mine" philosophy will be high on their agenda.
And now Georgia and Romania?

We have won the bidding war already!!!! Let's just already start to make the flags, the logos... and renovate our houses into five star luxury hotels

Sin é wrote:Sending this team to this competition (and Tiblisi) last year and the Romanians in the AIs is the IRFU making friends with who will be running rugby in a few years time, now that the French are in control of the IRB & the Rugby Chumps Cup. It will come in very handy in the bid for the bid to host the world cup.

Good shout sin - no flies on you sir!

Rugby chumps cup -cracker!

Ireland have collected on the NZ bribe (ABs playing Munster in Thomond Park).  

SecretFly wrote:New Zealand are on our side because didn't we support their bid?
England Scotland and Wales can't be seen to be against our bid given that the "I scratch your back and you then scratch mine" philosophy will be high on their agenda.
And now Georgia and Romania?

We have won the bidding war already!!!!   Let's just already start to make the flags, the logos... and renovate our houses into five star luxury hotels

England won't support the bid - they will support their BFs in SA.
Scotland & Wales won't support it either (unless they get games).

No flies on the IRFU - secure all the votes from the smaller nations who will go against what the larger nations want anyway.

Travelling World Cup Bid Ireland then

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sending this team to this competition (and Tiblisi) last year and the Romanians in the AIs is the IRFU making friends with who will be running rugby in a few years time, now that the French are in control of the IRB & the Rugby Chumps Cup. It will come in very handy in the bid for the bid to host the world cup.

Good shout sin - no flies on you sir!

Rugby chumps cup -cracker!

Isn't Georgia we're playing in the AIs?

Did anyone else see the squad ARG named? I would bet our "Emerging Ireland" side would even be more than a match for them. They have included all of about 4 professional players.

What an exciting tour...

It will be 'exciting' if we conspire to 'underperform' and 'lose' two games to them! That will be exciting. Infuriating, maddening and wreckless.... but exciting.

Certainly no chance of losing the games as England went over last year and put 50 on them without their Lions (that was arguably an even stronger ARG side to the one named today)

I don't understand why they don't play as many of their top players as they can here. Surely they need this for preperation to the Rugby championship?

Given that on paper Argentina are cannon fodder for our 6N champs and that it is only two games........................ em, have the Emerging Ireland side ironically got the much tougher assignment in very real perfomance rating terms????  

Amateur Yawning Argentina v Hungry Uruguay Russia and Romania?

Hmmm, seems maybe the wrong teams will be on the wrong planes to the wrong places  

Could very well be Fly! Although that depends if Romania and Uruguay have their best players available to them aswell! I hope that the French clubs will release their Romanian players.

Here is the ARG squad.

Backs (13): Santiago Cordero (Regatas Bella Vista), Tomas Cubelli (Belgrano Athletic), Jeronimo De la Fuente (Duendes RC), Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino (Oyonnax), Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias (Asociacion Alumni), Martin Landajo (Club Athetic), Manuel Montero (Pucara), Matias Moroni (CUBA), Ramiro Moyano (Lince Tucuman), Matias Orlando (Huirapuca Tucuman), Javier Rojas (Universitario Tucuman), Nicolas Sanchez (Bordeaux), Joaquin Tuculet (unattached).

Forwards (18): Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (San Isidro Club), Matias Alemanno (La Tablada), Gabriel Ascárate (Natacion y Gimnasia), Rodrigo Baez (Liceo RC), Manuel Carizza (Western Stormers), Matias Cortese (Liceo RC), Tomas De la Vega (Club Universitario), Matias Diaz (Highlanders), Ramiro Herrera (Castres), Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Universitario Tucuman), Facundo Isa (Santiago Lawn Tennis), Tomas Lavanini (Hindú Club), Benjamin Macome (unattached), Julian Montoya (Club Newman), Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince Tucuman), Javier Ortega Desio (Estudiantes), Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata), Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (La Plata).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Here is the ARG squad.

Backs (13): Santiago Cordero (Regatas Bella Vista), Tomas Cubelli (Belgrano Athletic), Jeronimo De la Fuente (Duendes RC), Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino (Oyonnax), Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias (Asociacion Alumni), Martin Landajo (Club Athetic), Manuel Montero (Pucara), Matias Moroni (CUBA), Ramiro Moyano (Lince Tucuman), Matias Orlando (Huirapuca Tucuman), Javier Rojas (Universitario Tucuman), Nicolas Sanchez (Bordeaux), Joaquin Tuculet (unattached).

Forwards (18): Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (San Isidro Club), Matias Alemanno (La Tablada), Gabriel Ascárate (Natacion y Gimnasia), Rodrigo Baez (Liceo RC), Manuel Carizza (Western Stormers), Matias Cortese (Liceo RC), Tomas De la Vega (Club Universitario), Matias Diaz (Highlanders), Ramiro Herrera (Castres), Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Universitario Tucuman), Facundo Isa (Santiago Lawn Tennis), Tomas Lavanini (Hindú Club), Benjamin Macome (unattached), Julian Montoya (Club Newman), Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince Tucuman), Javier Ortega Desio (Estudiantes), Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata), Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (La Plata).

Cubelli is playing for the Barbarians against the England Whoever's Left XV on Sunday. Will watch him then. A lot of homegrown players, a lot of home-based players, so a bit of an unknown quantity for us. Especially in the forwards. We should have too much, we'll wait and see.

LeinsterFan4life wrote: I don't understand why they don't play as many of their top players as they can here. Surely they need this for preperation to the Rugby championship?

June is the only time they can rest their top players.
Most play in the NH and then play Rugby championship July/August

Games in Argentina are for one thing only - revenue.
If any new players emerge it is a bonus for them.

That is why they are taking the games out to stadiums around the country, to stimulate interest.

Good point Geoff and I guess that is another reason why the introduction of their new Super 15 Franchise can't come soon enough! It will certainly prevent these types of squads from being announced, thats for sure.

An Argentinian Super 15 side would be class. Would really help out the National Team in that regard.

Looking at Argentinas squad for their warm-up game against a South American XV, only 5 players with caps in the double digits. Will they be tough enough opponents to test us sufficiently? Could make us look better than we are...

Spoiler:

Notch wrote:Looking at Argentinas squad for their warm-up game against a South American XV, only 5 players with caps in the double digits. Will they be tough enough opponents to test us sufficiently? Could make us look better than we are...

Spoiler:

That's the risk. They could embarrass us too of course, which would be another kettle of cod altogether! - but yes, the risk is that it could be a worthless free-for-all from an Irish perspective and players hoping to push their way into the side, or at least show Schmidt what they can do, will again be left with nothing much proved and the WC clock still ticking.

Schmidt didn't have any input on choosing the opponents for this summer I guess. And I'm sure ideally, when he came onboard, this destination at this point in his run in to the WC, wasn't what he would have personally wanted. But you have to honour the schedules and opponents.

There are real propects though of the Emerging Ireland side having the more sturdy and therefore more meaningful tour of the Summer period.

They should win both test by 30+. What is important though is that he beds in some options. For example Madigan, Marmion, Henshaw, Marshall, etc. No point in playing Sexton/Murray for both games.

I'd like to see Henshaw play in both games so he can bed in. He has great potential and it'll be good to see what he can do behind a dominant pack which is a rarity for him.

I'm not sure about Luke Marshall these days. He hasn't kicked on as I hoped he would have but hopefully Shcmidt can get the best out of him. Maybe they'll try Cave there?
Another 12 is needed too because D'Arcy offers nothing in attack these days.


Interestingly 17 of the 30 man squad have 10 caps or less.

James Cronin (Dolpin/Munster) *
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *
Iain Henderson (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 10
Rob Herring (Ballinahinch/Ulster) *
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 8
Jack McGrath (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 8
Marty Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 2
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 2
Damian Varley (Garryowen/Munster) 2
Backs
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 5
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 9
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 5
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *
Luke Marshall (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 5
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6


Injured/rested: SOB, POM, Donn Ryan, Ferris, Jackson, Sherry, Casey, Tuohy, Bowe, D Kearney, D'Arcy, Archer, Stuart Olding, Sean Cronin, Cian Healy, Boss, Niall Morris. The squad depth looks very healthy.

Olding will be the 12 you need

profitius wrote:
Another 12 is needed too because D'Arcy offers nothing in attack these days.

That grain of possible truth is always mitigated by the fully varnished truth that you can't attack without the ball. D'arcy and O'Driscoll might have lost their pace long long time ago in a far off galaxy far away and all that, but what other 12 and 13 scrambled so much doing the muck stuff in defending and retaking a ball they didn't have?  
There may very well be more zoom per buck in other younger alternatives now but Schmidt kinda wants International standard allrounders in just about every department. - Thus why Zebo is having such a hard time (allegedly!).  He (Zebo) can turn it on with ball in hand but perhaps Schmidt feels he doesn't get down and dirty enough, or perhaps isn't good enough at down and dirty, to actually get the ball that the team needs to do the 'attacking' with. No ball, no attack.

Anyone else heard that Henshaw is out of the tour injured? Just saw it on twitter, disappointing if true.

Paddy Jackson and Robbie Henshaw would have been the two players I most wanted to see get game time...

Ach shoite

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/31915.php#.U4byhV7RjwI

Who should be called up? Eoin Griffin?

Cometh the hour cometh the man

Step forward Darren you chance to show Schmidt, and Anscombe you are the bloke for the job   

In all seriousness if he shines - he will surely play both games where does that leave Payne at Ulster re playing 13.
Schmidt will want him to play 13 if he shines on tour.

geoff998rugby wrote:Cometh the hour cometh the man

Step forward Darren you chance to show Schmidt, and Anscombe you are the bloke for the job   

In all seriousness if he shines - he will surely play both games where does that leave Payne at Ulster re playing 13.
Schmidt will want him to play 13 if he shines on tour.

Considering dropping Schmidt already, Geoff?????? Be careful with those commas, they're rascals at twisting opinions.

Schmidt said at the time of the squad announcement that he wanted Henshaw, Earls & McFadden to get gametime in the centre as well as Cave & Marshall.

Sin é wrote:Schmidt said at the time of the squad announcement that he wanted Henshaw, Earls & McFadden to get gametime in the centre as well as Cave & Marshall.

When did he say that - the only thing I have seen is he saying he sees Cave and Henshaw as potential 13's and wanted to give them both game time in that position.

McFadden could be as a 12 - he used to play 12 to Cave's 13 for the Wolfhounds and they did well

Magigan? Didn't he do a Centre stint on his half game Man of the Match performance recently?

It was in one of the newspaper reports around the time of the squad announcements.

It stuck out for me as it suggested that Henshaw was travelling as a fullback rather than as a centre.