Ireland (Summer Tour Part 2 and General Discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from;

https://www.606v2.com/t53276p1000-ireland-s-summer-tour

How can new 12's prove their International quality when Schmidt ignores them and continues to select D'Arcy. Surely guys have to be given a chance and by that I don't mean 1 test every now and then, I mean a decent run in the side. It may be too late now so D'Arcy will be in line for the RWC but I feel that Schmidt missed a chance last 6N by not giving a younger lad an extended run alongside BOD.


This was also something I was very angry at Kidney for not doing as well.

Any new player ousting the incumbent has to demand selection or take the chance when it arises due to injury etc. With the impact Marshall had against Scotland last year he could well be in possession of the 12 jersey if he had avoided injury. Nobody else has been up to the required standard. So as far as i am concerned Darcy is the man.

And if D'Arcy gets injured in the lead up to big matches, what then?

I would just prefer that Ireland pick two or three younger centres and stick with them. Give them much needed time at International level, it may be costly at first but it will pay off in the long run. The continued selection of D'Arcy at 12 may cost Irelands centre development.

Nachos Jones wrote:How can new 12's prove their International quality when Schmidt ignores them and continues to select D'Arcy. Surely guys have to be given a chance and by that I don't mean 1 test every now and then, I mean a decent run in the side. It may be too late now so D'Arcy will be in line for the RWC but I feel that Schmidt missed a chance last 6N by not giving a younger lad an extended run alongside BOD.


This was also something I was very angry at Kidney for not doing as well.

Two different players played 12 and neither of them grabbed their chance so I don't see how he can be blamed... the main contender is Luke Marshall who has played 3 out of the last 10, Cave has had 1 out of 10 and D'Arcy 6 out of 10. D'Arcy has been the best in his chances, Marshall is close but he isn't quite up to standard. I think 3 starts is a fair amount to give a young player on the fringes across a season to be fair, and he hasn't grasped the nettle.

So three chances is enough to see if a player is good at international level?

So you would keep D'Arcy starting 6-7 out of every test match until someone steps up? This seems to be really backward thinking myself as it will be a miracle if someone comes along and performs immediately. Show a younger player some faith and let him develop into the team and the role. What if D'Arcy gets injured just before the RWC? Ireland will have no-one with enough experience to cover for him.

Nachos Jones wrote:How can new 12's prove their International quality when Schmidt ignores them and continues to select D'Arcy. Surely guys have to be given a chance and by that I don't mean 1 test every now and then, I mean a decent run in the side. It may be too late now so D'Arcy will be in line for the RWC but I feel that Schmidt missed a chance last 6N by not giving a younger lad an extended run alongside BOD.


This was also something I was very angry at Kidney for not doing as well.

As you say - too late for test dummy run testing ...even extended ones.  But don't blame Schmidt, rather blame the fact that he was hired a year too late.

Which young guy should have been given the decent run alongside BOD though? The BOD, that is, who incidently was never going to be around for the WC and thus the decent run with him would have been pretty much pointless during the 6N as the next 13 won't play like him.  And meanwhile too, D'Arcy did at least still intend to be playing on until the WC, and therefore a decent run out with him for a prospective 13 would have been far more rewarding on purely theoretical team advancement grounds.

So again, Nachos, which distinct young lad should have been given the decent run alongside a retiring BOD during the 6N? - keeping in mind that the decent run out would have involved most of the five games and would need to have been sustained even in the face of poor performances to justify the 'decent run' aspect of the test.
AND, had the guy not performed, and had we not won the 6Ns as a result of his below par performances, and had Schmidt been forced quickly then to try someone else in the non-events that were the two Argentine games.............. would you not now be criticising the fact that Schmidt lost his first competition by stubbornly sticking with an underperforming young lad through the entire 6N?  Would you not now be criticising him for playing catch up in the aftermath of a bad 6N, given that nothing much was learned during the Argentine tour about who the next decent-run guy might be in the Aututmn.  Would you have been applauding Schmidt at this point for his courage in choosing No12 alternatives for decent runs that haven't been working out?

You see the primary mistake people make when they talk of the alternatives is to somehow expect rather than hope that each one of the alternatives will prove as good or better than D'Arcy.  This is not so.  It's not written in stone that our next decent run 12 will prove as good as the present first choice.  So choosing where and when you give a decent run to an alternative is always a risk.

Nachos Jones wrote:And if D'Arcy gets injured in the lead up to big matches, what then?

I would just prefer that Ireland pick two or three younger centres and stick with them. Give them much needed time at International level, it may be costly at first but it will pay off in the long run. The continued selection of D'Arcy at 12 may cost Irelands centre development.

No guarantee. It may...it may not. Maybe the two young centres picked for extended runs only serve to hold back the true heirs to the crowns? You don't know that until fate tells you of course. And that's in the future. But certainly Schmidt wouldn't be thanked here for continuously playing two duds whilst the true heirs sat on their hands for a year or two. It's guesswork. He's doing his guesswork and has scant time left to guess with if we want to do better than our recent attempts at the WC.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:And if D'Arcy gets injured in the lead up to big matches, what then?

I would just prefer that Ireland pick two or three younger centres and stick with them. Give them much needed time at International level, it may be costly at first but it will pay off in the long run. The continued selection of D'Arcy at 12 may cost Irelands centre development.

No guarantee.  It may...it may not.  Maybe the two young centres picked for extended runs only serve to hold back the true heirs to the crowns?  You don't know that until fate tells you of course.  And that's in the future.  But certainly Schmidt wouldn't be thanked here for continuously playing two duds whilst the true heirs sat on their hands for a year or two.  It's guesswork.  He's doing his guesswork and has scant time left to guess with if we want to do better than our recent attempts at the WC.  

Is it guesswork fly? Surely they should be able to spot the players with the most potential. Henshaw and Olding were both brought into the squad when they were U20s which is rare for Ireland so they must be highly rated. Both happened to be injured for the Argentina tests.

D'Arcy IMO should be used now to bring others along. Ireland badly need players with an x factor especially now that BOD is gone. Ireland won the 6 nations on points difference and looking back it was the Italian game that made the difference for Ireland. In that BOD produced some moments of magic to open up the defence but other than that it was a close enough game for long periods.

I think Schmidt will play D'Arcy for most of next season with the view of showing the young lads the ropes.

Zeebs will sort out the x factor if he is let  

Schmidt obviously doesn't rate the x-factor much.

There are about 3 or 4 players who can do a job at inside centre, I wouldn't be too worried about it yet. Another season should see some of the other hopefuls step up (like Marshall & Olding, maybe even Madigan).

profitius wrote:
Is it guesswork fly? Surely they should be able to spot the players with the most potential. Henshaw and Olding

They are guesswork...or will be until their extended runs.  There is no way they can be guaranteed to be the guys we'd need until they get tested at the highest level in a hard series of high end Internationals.  
That's the Catch 22.  Not all of the hopefuls can or will be given such time to prove themselves - certainly not before the WC.  Schmidt needs a lot of certainty in the 'proven track record' field if he's to make any impression on the WC.

Now, he might intend to, or be forced to, try out a few wildcards in Important games.  I wouldn't be against that at all.  Let him go ahead and try some wildcards as he doesn't genuinely have time to devote to teaching anyway.  He's running right into the timetable rundown for the WC.  A lot of it is and will be guesswork.  No guarantees about any of these combinations or individuals mentioned.

SecretFly,

I wrote above that I didn't blame Schmidt, I actually said that I was mad at Kidney for not doing this either. Please re-read the first post you quoted me in, its right there at the bottom.

Marshall or Olding are the best options right now but if they do not get an extended run, we will never know. I have also said that I would not blame Schmidt if Ireland under-performed on the short term if he had an eye on the future.

Simple fact remains, if Ireland do not give the younger lads time to gel into the test team then there will be a hole left when/if D'Arcy retires or gets injured. It needs to start now, not 3-5 games before the RWC.

Nachos Jones wrote:SecretFly,

I wrote above that I didn't blame Schmidt, I actually said that I was mad at Kidney for not doing this either. Please re-read the first post you quoted me in, its right there at the bottom.

Marshall or Olding are the best options right now but if they do not get an extended run, we will never know. I have also said that I would not blame Schmidt if Ireland under-performed on the short term if he had an eye on the future.

Simple fact remains, if Ireland do not give the younger lads time to gel into the test team then there will be a hole left when/if D'Arcy retires or gets injured. It needs to start now, not 3-5 games before the RWC.

These are all opinions and I respect yours as yours.  But I'm asking again... what is short term underperformance in relation to one Autumn series and one 6N to go before he must decide on his prospective squad for the next world cup? What is short term? Two games, three games, eight games? How long should he allow himself and his team to underperform for the good of the future?

Schmidt wasn't hired to prepare the ground for another coach to take a settled Irish side to the 2019 WC with some real hope.  That's a longterm plan but it's not Schmidt's central one, or why he was hired.  He was hired to make Ireland work to the potential of the players available to it - something that keeps hitting the schit fan when the WC comes around.  The IRFU want that to change.  So do all of us.

Schmidt has been forced to look at the younger alternatives in a number of positions because of retirements coming or already gone... but he'll want as much big game International experience now in the lead in to the WC as possible.  He certainly won't have the idea in his head of now sacrificing position either in the Autumn, the 6N or the WC for the benefits of nurturing the future for some other coach to take over.  He was hired for results and he's ambitious enough to want them for his own career too.

Nachos Jones wrote:So three chances is enough to see if a player is good at international level?

So you would keep D'Arcy starting 6-7 out of every test match until someone steps up? This seems to be really backward thinking myself as it will be a miracle if someone comes along and performs immediately. Show a younger player some faith and let him develop into the team and the role. What if D'Arcy gets injured just before the RWC? Ireland will have no-one with enough experience to cover for him.

Well, thats why we keep giving other players chances like we have done with Marshall. It's not like Marshall is now persona non grata. He'll keep getting chances to show he's ready and when he is, then bye bye D'Arcy. He's getting a lot of experience in the role.

The truth is, at international level where there are few games and they are far apart, 3 chances in a year is a massive amount of game time. One start is a massive opportunity. And you have to grasp that chance when it comes along. The whole point of international rugby is that you have to be able to come into the team with almost no preparation and perform to your highest level instantly. Look at England this year; bunch of players playing in the Premiership final, hop on a plane and then six days later they are playing New Zealand in New Zealand. They have to hit the ground running with next to no preparation to have a chance.

So thats the test. If someone needs 4 or 5 games in a row to reach their potential then they aren't ready to play at a level where they could be facing the best side in the world with only one or two training sessions to prepare. The test is they have to come in and slot in instantly to be first choice. That's what is required to be successful in test rugby.

That said, you want to be giving players game time who aren't first choice to bring them on and thats whats happening, so I'm happy enough that a good balance is being struck. A second choice getting 30% of the games is good management and will help that player gain experience and work toward being first choice.

Nachos - Kidney introduced all but about 3 of the present internationals (Kearney Jnr & the Leinster props) - even the newer internationals like Madigan, Jackson, Marshall, Murray (to much criticism), Zebo, Henderson, O'Mahony, Kilcoyne, Archer (and thats not including players like O'Brien, Fitzgerald, Earls, Sexton, Healy, D Ryan, McFadden, Tuohy, Toner, Ross & Kearney Senior).

I really fail to see how Kidney has introduced any more, considering the amount of change there has been.

Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

GunsGerms wrote:Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

Not Kidney's fault that Sexton took his time learning out to control a game or kick points. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Joe Schmidt to develop Jackson and the others to even challenge Sexton?

Anyway, the point was made that Kidney should have implemented more change. He capped about 40+ players when he was head coach.
Basically, Schmidt is now reaping the benefits of capping all those young players.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

Not Kidney's fault that Sexton took his time learning out to control a game or kick points. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Joe Schmidt to develop Jackson and the others to even challenge Sexton?

Anyway, the point was made that Kidney should have implemented more change. He capped about 40+ players when he was head coach.
Basically, Schmidt is now reaping the benefits of capping all those young players.

Jackson and the others simply need to be ready to replace Sexton in case of injury/suspension.Sexton is in his prime and playing well so finding a challenger for him isn't a priority,RoG was in serious decline and not really up to 6 Nations standard when Kidney was still using him in the WC.He could still kick goals but everything else was shot and the Welsh showed that up particularly badly.

Kidney did cap a lot of players,he was a bit slow about it in some cases but in fairness to him if a player came in and showed he was up to the job then Kidney stuck with him.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

Not Kidney's fault that Sexton took his time learning out to control a game or kick points. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Joe Schmidt to develop Jackson and the others to even challenge Sexton?

Anyway, the point was made that Kidney should have implemented more change. He capped about 40+ players when he was head coach.
Basically, Schmidt is now reaping the benefits of capping all those young players.

Jackson and the others simply need to be ready to replace Sexton in case of injury/suspension.Sexton is in his prime and playing well so finding a challenger for him isn't a priority,RoG was in serious decline and not really up to 6 Nations standard when Kidney was still using him in the WC.He could still kick goals but everything else was shot and the Welsh showed that up particularly badly.

Kidney did cap a lot of players,he was a bit slow about it in some cases but in fairness to him if a player came in and showed he was up to the job then Kidney stuck with him.

Dunno about that. Jonny went as first choice but a got a dose of the yips off the tee. ROG came in and did well. The teams lack of a plan B was shown up against wales

Amazing how this can come back to Kidney and ROG.

A lot being said about Marshall/Cave/Olding.

In truth the players getting the short end of the stick are Griffin and McSharry but Connacht players aren't in vogue.

Let's not forget the soul tragically lost in Spence who seemed a fine prospect.

Then there was the unfortunate premature retirement of EOM also who was showing great form at OC.

Our centre partnership could have looked a whole lot different the last couple of seasons. To think of what could have been.

Submachine wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

Not Kidney's fault that Sexton took his time learning out to control a game or kick points. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Joe Schmidt to develop Jackson and the others to even challenge Sexton?

Anyway, the point was made that Kidney should have implemented more change. He capped about 40+ players when he was head coach.
Basically, Schmidt is now reaping the benefits of capping all those young players.

Jackson and the others simply need to be ready to replace Sexton in case of injury/suspension.Sexton is in his prime and playing well so finding a challenger for him isn't a priority,RoG was in serious decline and not really up to 6 Nations standard when Kidney was still using him in the WC.He could still kick goals but everything else was shot and the Welsh showed that up particularly badly.

Kidney did cap a lot of players,he was a bit slow about it in some cases but in fairness to him if a player came in and showed he was up to the job then Kidney stuck with him.

Dunno about that. Jonny went as first choice but a got a dose of the yips off the tee. ROG came in and did well. The teams lack of a plan B was shown up against wales

We'll have to agree to disagree on that cos we're miles apart.Imo the teams lack of plan B was largely down to having RoG at 10,the Welsh just rushed outside him and he couldn't pass a lot of the time,his lack of pace and strength then meant he was swallowed by the Welsh backrow when he was forced inside.Gatland also switched Williams to the right wing so RoG couldn't send high balls at him with Bowe chasing.The team then chose to pass up kickable penalties early on instead going for tries.It's not really worth dragging up an old argument but the way I saw it was at least Sexton might have got over his kicking troubles,RoG was never going to get over the problems he had as age simply caught up with him (and to be fair D'Arcy and BoD outside him no longer had the pace either so RoG had little help0.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:A lot being said about Marshall/Cave/Olding.

In truth the players getting the short end of the stick are Griffin and McSharry but Connacht players aren't in vogue.

Let's not forget the soul tragically lost in Spence who seemed a fine prospect.  

Then there was the unfortunate premature retirement of EOM also who was showing great form at OC.

Our centre partnership could have looked a whole lot different the last couple of seasons.  To think of what could have been.

In fairness there isn't much point mentioning them since Schmidt doesn't seem to rate them,if they start making squads then they'll be talked about.Henshaw and Marmion have shown you can make it at Connacht but I'm a Leinster fan so I'll always trust Schmidts judgement on players.

Sin é wrote:Nachos - Kidney introduced all but about 3 of the present internationals (Kearney Jnr & the Leinster props) - even the newer internationals like Madigan, Jackson, Marshall, Murray (to much criticism), Zebo, Henderson, O'Mahony, Kilcoyne, Archer (and thats not including players like O'Brien, Fitzgerald, Earls, Sexton, Healy, D Ryan, McFadden, Tuohy, Toner, Ross & Kearney Senior).

I really fail to see how Kidney has introduced any more, considering the amount of change there has been.

Sin é, I am fully aware of the new players Kidney brought through. I was simply referring to the Centre positions. Those were key positions that needed understudies during Kidney's last year but he failed to do that. That's pretty much the only gripe I had about Kidney and developing a solid side.


As for Schmidt's task not being about preparing for the future, sorry but that is part of the role of being an Ireland coach. Personal short term glory should not over-ride the long term success of the country you coach. If Schmidt is only focussing on the short term for his own personal achievements then he does not have the best interests of Ireland at heart and is them most certainly the wrong man for the job.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Submachine wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Kidney also presisted with lots of sub standard players like O'Leary and O'Gara.

Not Kidney's fault that Sexton took his time learning out to control a game or kick points. It will be interesting to see how long it will take Joe Schmidt to develop Jackson and the others to even challenge Sexton?

Anyway, the point was made that Kidney should have implemented more change. He capped about 40+ players when he was head coach.
Basically, Schmidt is now reaping the benefits of capping all those young players.

Jackson and the others simply need to be ready to replace Sexton in case of injury/suspension.Sexton is in his prime and playing well so finding a challenger for him isn't a priority,RoG was in serious decline and not really up to 6 Nations standard when Kidney was still using him in the WC.He could still kick goals but everything else was shot and the Welsh showed that up particularly badly.

Kidney did cap a lot of players,he was a bit slow about it in some cases but in fairness to him if a player came in and showed he was up to the job then Kidney stuck with him.

Dunno about that. Jonny went as first choice but a got a dose of the yips off the tee. ROG came in and did well. The teams lack of a plan B was shown up against wales

We'll have to agree to disagree on that cos we're miles apart.Imo the teams lack of plan B was largely down to having RoG at 10,the Welsh just rushed outside him and he couldn't pass a lot of the time,his lack of pace and strength then meant he was swallowed by the Welsh backrow when he was forced inside.Gatland also switched Williams to the right wing so RoG couldn't send high balls at him with Bowe chasing.The team then chose to pass up kickable penalties early on instead going for tries.It's not really worth dragging up an old argument but the way I saw it was at least Sexton might have got over his kicking troubles,RoG was never going to get over the problems he had as age simply caught up with him (and to be fair D'Arcy and BoD outside him no longer had the pace either so RoG had little help0.

If ROG couldn't pass a lot of the time, why did the Welsh backrow have to make 55 tackles between them (in comparision to 29 to the Irish backrow of Ferris, O'Brien & Heaslip)?

Dan Lydiate made 24 of the now infamous chop tackles which left both Ferris & O'Brien spending more time on the ground than on their feet.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Sin é wrote:Nachos - Kidney introduced all but about 3 of the present internationals (Kearney Jnr & the Leinster props) - even the newer internationals like Madigan, Jackson, Marshall, Murray (to much criticism), Zebo, Henderson, O'Mahony, Kilcoyne, Archer (and thats not including players like O'Brien, Fitzgerald, Earls, Sexton, Healy, D Ryan, McFadden, Tuohy, Toner, Ross & Kearney Senior).

I really fail to see how Kidney has introduced any more, considering the amount of change there has been.

Sin é, I am fully aware of the new players Kidney brought through. I was simply referring to the Centre positions. Those were key positions that needed understudies during Kidney's last year but he failed to do that. That's pretty much the only gripe I had about Kidney and developing a solid side.


As for Schmidt's task not being about preparing for the future, sorry but that is part of the role of being an Ireland coach. Personal short term glory should not over-ride the long term success of the country you coach. If Schmidt is only focussing on the short term for his own personal achievements then he does not have the best interests of Ireland at heart and is them most certainly the wrong man for the job.

Keith Earls played the 6Ns in the centre after the world cup. Kidney had backup for both BOD & D'Arcy (Paddy Wallace). Kidney had Earls earmarked to be BOD replacement, so you can't claim that he didn't do anything about it. He also capped Cave & Luke Marshall after the last world cup.

Sin é wrote:

Keith Earls played the 6Ns in the centre after the world cup. Kidney had backup for both BOD & D'Arcy (Paddy Wallace). Kidney had Earls earmarked to be BOD replacement, so you can't claim that he didn't do anything about it. He also capped Cave & Luke Marshall after the last world cup.

True about Earls, for some reason that did slip my mind. As for Paddy Wallace, a much under-rated centre in my mind, he was never really an understudy, more of a back up. He was never the future. He did cap Cave and Marshall but they were also very short lived. In short, I feel that Kidney made some big mistakes in the centres his last year but its a mistake that Schmidt is continuing to make and that is what has me concerned.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:A lot being said about Marshall/Cave/Olding.

In truth the players getting the short end of the stick are Griffin and McSharry but Connacht players aren't in vogue.

Let's not forget the soul tragically lost in Spence who seemed a fine prospect.  

Then there was the unfortunate premature retirement of EOM also who was showing great form at OC.

Our centre partnership could have looked a whole lot different the last couple of seasons.  To think of what could have been.

McSharry had a nothing season. He didn't even make the Emerging Ireland tour and near every professional rugby left in Ireland was picked for that. Even when Noel Reid got called up to the main squad he still didn't make it. He's not hard done by. As for Griffin, he's leaving for London Irish and if he wasn't the emergence of Robbie Henshaw means he wouldn't get his game there. In fact, with Bundee Aki incoming, I don't think McSharry will either.

Simon Easterby to be our new forwards coach;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28332483

If I'm being 100% honest, I don't think he's quite in the same class as Plumtree, but its great to have him aboard. After Plumtree left, the best candidate.

Notch wrote:Simon Easterby to be our new forwards coach;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28332483

If I'm being 100% honest, I don't think he's quite in the same class as Plumtree, but its great to have him aboard. After Plumtree left, the best candidate.

Easters a good coach, however I this will be his first gig as a forwards coach, so far he has been defence coach and head coach at the Scarlets, with McBryde, Garin Jenkins and most recently Danny Wilson coaching the forwards. So it will be interesting to see how he goes. That said if/when its made official good luck to him, and I hope he does well for you.

Yep, I have very fond memories of him as a player. He was an excellent lineout operator. We have a dedicated scrum coach and Schmidt would cover a lot of detail at the ruck so a lot of his job will be concerning the lineout and maul. As you say, Plumtree was much more of a proven specialist forwards operator in the coaching department but this was an area of expertise for him as a flanker. He was never the physical specimen that O'Brien or Ferris was, but he made up for it with really great technique at lineout and at the ruck. He was impeccable in that regard, clearly did a lot of homework and a huge amount of work on mastering all the nitty gritty aspects of the position so not surprising he was drawn to coaching.

It will be interesting to see how he does but he knows what he's on about when it comes to the nuts and bolts of forward play, no doubt. Just less of a track record as a specialist forwards coach than Plumtree. IRFU have probably had their eye on him for a while, reports linking him to the job started surfacing very soon after Plumtree left.

I see the guy you hired to be your new Assisstant Coach is now going to be your Head Coach? Wayne Pivac? Ulster aren't the only ones dealing with pre-season turbulence!

Notch, rumour is that we knew this was coming hence taking on Pivac as an insurance policy. Not sure how true though.

Interesting. They couldn't have known Plumtree was going to leave. That was a bit of a bombshell. He might have expressed interest in the job when it came open the first time- and the reason the IRFU were so quick to offer him it is he was the second choice initially.

Notch wrote:Interesting. They couldn't have known Plumtree was going to leave. That was a bit of a bombshell. He might have expressed interest in the job when it came open the first time- and the reason the IRFU were so quick to offer him it is he was the second choice initially.

The grape vine has it that Easters had been wanted by a few others (apparently including LI and Embra??) over the last few season, so Pivac was brought in with a view to Easters departing (assumed end of the coming season, not the start mind).

Anyway, now it has been confirmed congratulations to Simon, and I hope he does well for you. A top bloke, a top player, and now an international (forwards) coach.

Notch wrote:Interesting. They couldn't have known Plumtree was going to leave. That was a bit of a bombshell. He might have expressed interest in the job when it came open the first time- and the reason the IRFU were so quick to offer him it is he was the second choice initially.

Or his brother Guy, Leinster team manager might have dropped a hint or two!

Always liked Simon Easterby. He was a great player for Ireland. Probably under-rated. Look forward to see what he can bring to the table.

He (65 caps Ireland caps) was about as under rated as David Wallace (72 caps) was.

Eddie O'Sullivan, the guy who didn't pick any players who played outside Ireland loved him.

Sin é wrote:He (65 caps Ireland caps) was about as under rated as David Wallace (72 caps) was.

Eddie O'Sullivan, the guy who didn't pick any players who played outside Ireland loved him.

Never said he was under rated by your beloved EOS.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:He (65 caps Ireland caps) was about as under rated as David Wallace (72 caps) was.

Eddie O'Sullivan, the guy who didn't pick any players who played outside Ireland loved him.

Never said he was under rated by your beloved EOS.

He kept Alan Quinlan out of the Ireland team (a very under rated player) (who saved Ireland's bacon in a world cup) whose Ireland caps are in the 30s.

So what? Quinlan has nothing to do with Easterby. You are just playing the six degrees of Munster rugby again. You cant post without referencing Munster or a Munster player or coach?

GunsGerms wrote:So what? Quinlan has nothing to do with Easterby. You are just playing the six degrees of Munster rugby again. You cant post without referencing Munster or a Munster player or coach?

Easterby was preferred to Quinlan who was also highly rated and playing around that time. Easterby was also preferred to Anthony Foley and infamously was dropped by Eddie with a text from captaining Ireland to out of the 22 by EOS because Easterby was fit to play and captain Ireland.

Simon Easterby was never under rated as a player. He had a very poor last 6Ns with Ireland and should have been dropped by Eddie who persisted with him.

By the way - I like to reference stuff - it just happens I know more about Munster players than Leinster or Ulster. I'm sure there must have been some Leinster player who was hard done by as well, but it just happens that Easterby's career coincided when the Munster pack was also the Irish pack - he was the only player outside of Munster to make it.

Sin é wrote:it just happens that Easterby's career coincided when the Munster pack was also the Irish pack - he was the only player outside of Munster to make it.

Wasn't that the pack that got man-shamed at the 07 RWC, and couldn't get past the pool stages?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:it just happens that Easterby's career coincided when the Munster pack was also the Irish pack - he was the only player outside of Munster to make it.

Wasn't that the pack that got man-shamed at the 07 RWC, and couldn't get past the pool stages?

Not entirely, Rory Best was the starting hooker against our worst shamings, Namibia & Georgia.   

The IRFU have a €7.3m surplus this season.
http://www.thescore.ie/irfu-accounts-surplus-201314-season-1578178-Jul2014/

GunsGerms wrote:So what? Quinlan has nothing to do with Easterby. You are just playing the six degrees of Munster rugby again. You cant post without referencing Munster or a Munster player or coach?

Lol, anything positive about Munster is like kryptonite to you.   

No, I remember Easterbys last season and we were all sick to the back teeth of him by then because it was gone from him. His form was gone, really. Not his fault he was picked; more blind loyalty from EOS than anything else. Not the only player Eddie O'Sullivan refused to change during and after the 2007 RWC debacle.

In the run-up to the 2007 RWC and for the majority of his caps he fully deserved his place, a very good player in that period.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:it just happens that Easterby's career coincided when the Munster pack was also the Irish pack - he was the only player outside of Munster to make it.

Wasn't that the pack that got man-shamed at the 07 RWC, and couldn't get past the pool stages?

Not entirely, Rory Best was the starting hooker against our worst shamings, Namibia & Georgia.   

So Easterby wasn't the only player to make it after all - contradicting yourself in consecutive posts takes some doing 

Easterby was just one EOS favourite in a team of EOS favourites, primarily chosen for his lineout, because Eddie needed a jumper at the tail. He seems to command respect as a coach so maybe he'll do well. Hope we see a bit more of Sarra too!

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:it just happens that Easterby's career coincided when the Munster pack was also the Irish pack - he was the only player outside of Munster to make it.

Wasn't that the pack that got man-shamed at the 07 RWC, and couldn't get past the pool stages?

Not entirely, Rory Best was the starting hooker against our worst shamings, Namibia & Georgia.   

So Easterby wasn't the only player to make it after all - contradicting yourself in consecutive posts takes some doing 

Easterby was just one EOS favourite in a team of EOS favourites, primarily chosen for his lineout, because Eddie needed a jumper at the tail. He seems to command respect as a coach so maybe he'll do well. Hope we see a bit more of Sarra too!

Mal O'Kelly used to get a look in every now and then as well.   

PS - Alan Quinlan was a good lineout jumper (as was David Wallace).

Have just seen the new Irish kit posts. The kit itself to me is relatively meaningless but the players in the kit weren't.

I saw Stuart olding which can only be a good thing for his chances this coming season to be in the mix already after injury. Mike McCarthy was there, what does this mean for donnacha Ryan? Felix jones was in too, where does he fit in when Payne arrives? The two Munster props kilcoyne and the other loose head who's name escapes me right now, could this mean an extra loose head with the possibility of moving McGrath to 3?

Trying to find more photos.

Also: in these and some of the recent Leinster training pics, Luke Fitzgerald was nowhere to be seen....

Luke Marshall, Henry and McCarthy are on the irishrugby website for the release of the training kit. Might be more of 'who is around to grab for a few pics'. Sometimes we might be giving coaches and management too much credit/smarts than they realise/deserve.

James Cronin is the name you're looking for Pete. It's a three day training camp thats happening at Carton House right now but I would say they are casting the net very wide with a large squad. I don't think Sexton will be available though- in fact I'm nearly certain he isn't.

Goodby Puma - Hello Canterbury

Happy days