Ireland (Summer Tour Part 2 and General Discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from;

https://www.606v2.com/t53276p1000-ireland-s-summer-tour

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:It must kill you that Kidney is up there with the great coaches like G Henry, Woodward, Hansen and White who also have won World Coach of the Year.

Well it does kill me, yeah.  Have to admit it.  Wished he had more of them trophies and gold things, Sin, not less of them.  He just slid too much in the latter years of his tenancy.

Exactly sure the Grand Slam was a great achievement of which he should be justly proud - trouble is he did not maintain it.
The following 4 years in the 6N for example were mediocre and our worst run since the 6N started - we won less than half of our games.

You need to look at the record as a whole (just using 6N here)
Declan Kidney W14 D2 L9 - 60% success rate - Champions once (20%)
Joe Schmidt W4 L1 - 80% success rate - Champions once (100%)

We can all play with statistics.

In truth it is far too early to assess Schmidt but to somehow claim he hasn't matched Kidney is to so distort the paramenters, of what is included, to be meaningless.

 

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's not calling you a liar, Sin.  He might be calling the guy you quote from Munsterfans a liar.  No, sorry, he might be calling the inside-Ireland-camp snitch a liar - that guy who told the ToD story to the guy on Munsterfans, who told it to Munsterfans, who gave it to you, who gave it to us.  He might be calling him a liar.

Who was he, Sin?  That guy who told the guy who told Munsterfans who told you who told us?

Name and shame that guy, Sin.  And if his name turns out to be Mr Urban Legend then we can hardly believe anything that guy ever says, can we?  He's a known stirrer.

I know the guy's real name. He would be the less pompous version of Geoff on Munsterfans   

What was that someone said about being savaged by a sheep   

It occurs to me I've not done bad got to 60 and I honestly cant recall any one calling me pompous before   

Have some strange habits to be sure (not adverse to a Victor Meldrew moment for example)but in the lexicon of character traits pretty certain none of my friends or realtives would include pomposity  

The reason why no one up to now thinks you are pompous is more than likely because you hang around with a load of pompous people who don't consider themselves to be pompous   

Serious is that the best you can come up with - pathetic   

Sin é wrote:

You are making sweeping statements about people who read this forum believing that TOD was dropped without any of the usual helpful workons that Schmidt is supposedly meant to give to players he is dropping.

How would you rate a coach who wasn't evenhanded in how he dealt with players when dropping them?

Schmit failed to do what Kidney did in his first season, by the way. Schmidt didn't win a Grand Slam or the Churchill Cup. It will be interesting to see if he wins IRB World Coach of the Year in his tenure. It must kill you that Kidney is up there with the great coaches like G Henry, Woodward, Hansen and White who also have won World Coach of the Year.

Why would that kill me?I'm an Irishman and I support our team,I was delighted that Kidney had a great 1st year it's just a pity it was shown to be an aberration and every year he was in charge the team got worse.

The difference between you and me is I gave Kidney a chance before I started to criticise,I actually thought he was a great appointment and was delighted he got the job.You can look up my posts on the old 606 and you will find plenty of praise for kidney and Ireland there during 2009 and I defended him in early 2010,you will find similar comments from other posters on here too.It was only after a year of failure that I lost faith in him but I gave him a chance,you however seem to be hoping Schmidt will fail,is it just so someone associated with Leinster doesn't get the credit that you wish to see Ireland lose?

geoff998rugby wrote: 

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's not calling you a liar, Sin.  He might be calling the guy you quote from Munsterfans a liar.  No, sorry, he might be calling the inside-Ireland-camp snitch a liar - that guy who told the ToD story to the guy on Munsterfans, who told it to Munsterfans, who gave it to you, who gave it to us.  He might be calling him a liar.

Who was he, Sin?  That guy who told the guy who told Munsterfans who told you who told us?

Name and shame that guy, Sin.  And if his name turns out to be Mr Urban Legend then we can hardly believe anything that guy ever says, can we?  He's a known stirrer.

I know the guy's real name. He would be the less pompous version of Geoff on Munsterfans   

What was that someone said about being savaged by a sheep   

It occurs to me I've not done bad got to 60 and I honestly cant recall any one calling me pompous before   

Have some strange habits to be sure (not adverse to a Victor Meldrew moment for example)but in the lexicon of character traits pretty certain none of my friends or realtives would include pomposity  

The reason why no one up to now thinks you are pompous is more than likely because you hang around with a load of pompous people who don't consider themselves to be pompous   

Serious is that the best you can come up with - pathetic   

Sorry, I didn't think it was a competition to come up with something better.

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:It must kill you that Kidney is up there with the great coaches like G Henry, Woodward, Hansen and White who also have won World Coach of the Year.

Well it does kill me, yeah.  Have to admit it.  Wished he had more of them trophies and gold things, Sin, not less of them.  He just slid too much in the latter years of his tenancy.

Exactly sure the Grand Slam was a great achievement of which he should be justly proud - trouble is he did not maintain it.
The following 4 years in the 6N for example were mediocre and our worst run since the 6N started - we won less than half of our games.

You need to look at the record as a whole (just using 6N here)
Declan Kidney W14 D2 L9 - 60% success rate - Champions once (20%)
Joe Schmidt W4 L1 - 80% success rate - Champions once (100%)

We can all play with sta
I didn't start the stats thing though. But Kidney achieved more in his first season than Schmidt. Winning a GS is better than winning the championship Beating and drawing with Australia is better than losing to Australia and New Zealand.
tistics.

In truth it is far too early to assess Schmidt but to somehow claim he hasn't matched Kidney is to so distort the paramenters, of what is included, to be meaningless.

By the way, Schmidt has been in charge for 10 games (I think), not 5.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:It must kill you that Kidney is up there with the great coaches like G Henry, Woodward, Hansen and White who also have won World Coach of the Year.

Well it does kill me, yeah.  Have to admit it.  Wished he had more of them trophies and gold things, Sin, not less of them.  He just slid too much in the latter years of his tenancy.

Exactly sure the Grand Slam was a great achievement of which he should be justly proud - trouble is he did not maintain it.
The following 4 years in the 6N for example were mediocre and our worst run since the 6N started - we won less than half of our games.

You need to look at the record as a whole (just using 6N here)
Declan Kidney W14 D2 L9 - 60% success rate - Champions once (20%)
Joe Schmidt W4 L1 - 80% success rate - Champions once (100%)

We can all play with sta
I didn't start the stats thing though. But Kidney achieved more in his first season than Schmidt. Winning a GS is better than winning the championship  Beating and drawing with Australia is better than losing to Australia and New Zealand.
tistics.

In truth it is far too early to assess Schmidt but to somehow claim he hasn't matched Kidney is to so distort the paramenters, of what is included, to be meaningless.

By the way, Schmidt has been in charge for 10 games (I think), not 5.

Reread I said - 'just using 6N here' - for the simply reason it is easy to check and is directly comparable.
Bottom line is Kidney had one perfect year and 4 poor to average years.
Schmidt has had one excellent year.
To suggest Kidney's record is better is disingenous

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: 

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's not calling you a liar, Sin.  He might be calling the guy you quote from Munsterfans a liar.  No, sorry, he might be calling the inside-Ireland-camp snitch a liar - that guy who told the ToD story to the guy on Munsterfans, who told it to Munsterfans, who gave it to you, who gave it to us.  He might be calling him a liar.

Who was he, Sin?  That guy who told the guy who told Munsterfans who told you who told us?

Name and shame that guy, Sin.  And if his name turns out to be Mr Urban Legend then we can hardly believe anything that guy ever says, can we?  He's a known stirrer.

I know the guy's real name. He would be the less pompous version of Geoff on Munsterfans   

What was that someone said about being savaged by a sheep   

It occurs to me I've not done bad got to 60 and I honestly cant recall any one calling me pompous before   

Have some strange habits to be sure (not adverse to a Victor Meldrew moment for example)but in the lexicon of character traits pretty certain none of my friends or realtives would include pomposity  

The reason why no one up to now thinks you are pompous is more than likely because you hang around with a load of pompous people who don't consider themselves to be pompous   

Serious is that the best you can come up with - pathetic   

Sorry, I didn't think it was a competition to come up with something better.

I simply replied to put some levity in to the matter you then drag it down again with a dig at the people around me.
Bit rich coming from someone who played the racist card recently   

ME-109 wrote:

Submachine wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Submachine wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Zebo is not that fast, he's not even the quickest player in the squad. Can we bust some myths here please.

Rodders...Zebo has been clocked at 11.1 for 100 metres according to this article and is apparently the fastest to have ever played for ireland according to the IRFU GPS tracking....

http://www.thestar.ie/star/zebo-is-fast-and-furious-15353/

Maybe you could provide the figures for the ones who are faster...genuinely interested..

Just to add Zebo was included in this report http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1787219-the-fastest-players-in-world-rugby  (again not very quantitative)...however you keep saying Zebo is not the fastest in the Irish squad but everything seems to point to him being just that....

I wonder what Simon Geoghegan, Brendan Mullins and Denis Hickey were clocked at on that GPS thingy. I hear Jack Kyle could fairly motor as well. Still you have at least provided a link.

Sin you could learn a lot from your side kick.

You might be surprised to know that myself and Sin É have diverging views on lots of rugby related matters....its called being able to form opinions based on observations. Unlike the sheeplike mentality displayed by the majority of lambs on here....so here is a little video of most of the Irish contributors on 606v2 discussing the Irish team...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N73840RcgYw

Like you wanting to be referred to as Robin and your hero insisting on calling you Boy Wonder?

Now I know what is meant by the term "savaged by a sheep"...surely you can do better than that...

No Jimmy Olsen, that was my A grade material. I try to be more of an annoyance than a feelings hurter. Will try harder in future Pinky.

I see this topic has finally degraded to the usual sho1te.
Happy days

For Ireland moving forward, what players from the Emerging Ireland squad should be rewarded with more exposure in the full squad?

And also, what JWC players should be parachuted into the Pro12 club level. I sometimes get frustrated that we don't fast-track genuine talent up through the ranks and instead leave them behind 'experienced' players of a similar/poorer quality. For example if at Leinster (just using my own province as an example) Luke McGrath was given more exposure in front of a decent Cooney and aging Reddan/Boss then we could be in a much better scenario than Cooney effectly delaying the development of McGrath for a season before moving on to Connacht.

Front row seems good at JWC level, locks have height(!) and seemed decent, Jack O'Donoghue looks like he should be brought through sooner rather than later, Ringrose seems a decent centre prospect, Cian Kelleher looks like at least a pro12 level prospect.

I think the problerm with Emerging Ireland is that for the first two games the opposition was so poor we didn't learn a thing.

Be interested in seeing some of the Rumania game as that at least sounds like a contest

thebandwagonsociety wrote:For Ireland moving forward, what players from the Emerging Ireland squad should be rewarded with more exposure in the full squad?

And also, what JWC players should be parachuted into the Pro12 club level.  I sometimes get frustrated that we don't fast-track genuine talent up through the ranks and instead leave them behind 'experienced' players of a similar/poorer quality.  For example if at Leinster (just using my own province as an example) Luke McGrath was given more exposure in front of a decent Cooney and aging Reddan/Boss then we could be in a much better scenario than Cooney effectly delaying the development of McGrath for a season before moving on to Connacht.

Front row seems good at JWC level, locks have height(!) and seemed decent, Jack O'Donoghue looks like he should be brought through sooner rather than later, Ringrose seems a decent centre prospect, Cian Kelleher looks like at least a pro12 level prospect.

Yes, good points bandwagon.  I too kinda feel we should chance one or two fast track options more often.  Think of what someone like Gatland might be doing at this point with Ireland.  Sometimes the risks pay massive dividends by dropping talented green players into the deep end and asking them to sink or swim.  We worry too much about psychology sometimes in Ireland.  It can be an insult of sorts to always assume a young and obviously talented guy can never skip a level to the top.   Yeah, Kelleher is a guy that to me looked like a player physically and in skill terms ready to advance higher.  But will he?  Or will the long slog sequential treadmill be all that's offered to him?

I can see Leinster holding that Kelleher kid back, Rob will take the top end games (and rightly so on form), then D Kearney and Kirchener are both there to cover the remainder of the top end and most of the pro12 fixtures. Leinster is going to end up blocking the development of some of these players. With green-tinted glasses on this just isn't acceptable. Even if there wasn't a place in one of the other provinces, some of these players need to seek top flight experience even if it means moving away. How many will be 'comfortable' to sit on the bench or in the B&I team to 'wait their turn'. Surely a Quins (O'Shea), Gloucester (Humphreys), or London Irish (one would think they would seek to put some 'Oirish'ness into the squad) would be interested in some quality youth.

Fitzgerald was promoted to the Leinster first team at a very young age. Maybe that has something to do with the long list of injury setbacks he gets. Michael Owen believes too many top flight games for Liverpool at such a young age contributed to the early decline in his career, due hamstring trouble taking his pace etc.

When Fitzy was 19 I thought he was the new O'Driscoll. But he's been plagued by injuries for 5 years now and we'll probably never see him reach his full potential. I wonder will we see someone like George North peak at a young age too since he started very early. I'm not a Doctor though. Just a thought.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: 

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's not calling you a liar, Sin.  He might be calling the guy you quote from Munsterfans a liar.  No, sorry, he might be calling the inside-Ireland-camp snitch a liar - that guy who told the ToD story to the guy on Munsterfans, who told it to Munsterfans, who gave it to you, who gave it to us.  He might be calling him a liar.

Who was he, Sin?  That guy who told the guy who told Munsterfans who told you who told us?

Name and shame that guy, Sin.  And if his name turns out to be Mr Urban Legend then we can hardly believe anything that guy ever says, can we?  He's a known stirrer.

I know the guy's real name. He would be the less pompous version of Geoff on Munsterfans   

What was that someone said about being savaged by a sheep   

It occurs to me I've not done bad got to 60 and I honestly cant recall any one calling me pompous before   

Have some strange habits to be sure (not adverse to a Victor Meldrew moment for example)but in the lexicon of character traits pretty certain none of my friends or realtives would include pomposity  

The reason why no one up to now thinks you are pompous is more than likely because you hang around with a load of pompous people who don't consider themselves to be pompous   

Serious is that the best you can come up with - pathetic   

Sorry, I didn't think it was a competition to come up with something better.

I simply replied to put some levity in to the matter you then drag it down again with a dig at the people around me.
Bit rich coming from someone who played the racist card recently    

Sorry, what is 'playing' the racist card, please?

Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to exploitation of either racist or anti-racist attitudes by accusing others of racism.

Normally used in contexts where the person playing that card is using it to shore up a weak argument and/or there has been no mention of race, or race is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. Basically deliberate implying/insinuating racist motives to gain some sort of advantage.

Submachine wrote:Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to exploitation of either racist or anti-racist attitudes by accusing others of racism.

I didn't accuse anyone of being a racist though.

Fascinating how on an irish thread MODS aren't concerned about personal attacks, calling people pompous, allegations of using racist card....it's all good here, derail at will, no red pen or finger waving.

Nothing like some good old fashioned double standards.

Notch wrote:Normally used in contexts where the person playing that card is using it to shore up a weak argument and/or there has been no mention of race, or race is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. Basically deliberate implying/insinuating racist motives to gain some sort of advantage.

My comment was in response that Staff/Senior players were not happy with Zebo's 'antics' last summer.

My response was that a) conor murray should get the same treatment as he was up to the same 'antics' as Zebo and the senior players and management were not discriminating against him (wanting him out of the squad) b) if any one (management / senior players) had a problem with Zebo it was because of his laid back, happy go lucky personality which he probably inheritated from his martinique heritage. If they don't approve of his cultural heritage (different to the celtic/anglo saxon heritage) that would be in my opinion racist.

By the way, I rubished the idea that the senior players didn't approve of Zebo.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to exploitation of either racist or anti-racist attitudes by accusing others of racism.

I didn't accuse anyone of being a racist though.

You did ask what playing the race card meant

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Normally used in contexts where the person playing that card is using it to shore up a weak argument and/or there has been no mention of race, or race is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. Basically deliberate implying/insinuating racist motives to gain some sort of advantage.

My comment was in response that Staff/Senior players were not happy with Zebo's 'antics' last summer.

My response was that a) conor murray should get the same treatment as he was up to the same 'antics' as Zebo and the senior players and management were not discriminating against him (wanting him out of the squad)  b) if any one (management / senior players) had a problem with Zebo it was because of his laid back, happy go lucky personality which he probably inheritated from his martinique heritage. If they don't approve of his cultural heritage (different to the celtic/anglo saxon heritage) that would be in my opinion racist.

By the way, I rubished the idea that the senior players didn't approve of Zebo.

So you invent a hypothetical situation in your head and then you say that any hypothetical disapproval of this situation- which, again, is in your head- is racist. It's a complete diversion. It has nothing to do with anything.

God, I hate the off season!   

There is certainly something in the laid back attitude versus the principal JS approach to things. I mean who hasnt met a principal (or headmaster in the anglo saxon world) they havent liked.

Maybe standards in Pres (PBC) had dropped so much that they left a very talented wing to his own devices and left him do his own thing. Maybe Joe still thinks he is running a school. Maybe thats why the Leinster boys who mostly went to fee paying boarding schools like Joe because he touches a nerve (ahem) with them and they are used to that sort of discipline with a certain frisson of being found out!!!

Or maybe joe just likes a winger who cant score tries, gets chased down by second rows and falls over (on his own) two metres from the try line....

who knows.

This is the guy who started our last two tests and is on his way to becoming established first choice.

My take is and always has been- Zebo didn't have that much game time before the Six Nations and that influenced the initial selection call for the Scotland game. The results without him were good, the wingers were performing their roles well in defence and at the breakdown- albeit only Trimble really sparked in attack- so he favoured continuity in selection for the rest of the tournament.

Dave Kearney in the Six Nations this year reminds me a lot of Luke Fitzgerald in 2009. As for the Zebo thing, I think Schmidt and senior players have zero problems with him and his absence has been blown out of all proportion; people are just trying to square a circle and reading all kinds of things into his non-selection. People are just projecting their own biases onto a very straight forward scenario. Schmidt made a fairly conservative call, in all fairness, not to gamble on him initially and then when the back three combination proved to be very balanced and functioned well it was retained. Given the fact we won a title with the back three working well together in every game I refuse to criticise him for it.

Baaa

Or should I say 'Baaa, whistle, Baaa'

Notch wrote:This is the guy who started our last two tests and is on his way to becoming established first choice.

My take is and always has been- Zebo didn't have that much game time before the Six Nations and that influenced the initial selection call for the Scotland game. The results without him were good, the wingers were performing their roles well in defence and at the breakdown- albeit only Trimble really sparked in attack- so he favoured continuity in selection for the rest of the tournament.

Dave Kearney in the Six Nations this year reminds me a lot of Luke Fitzgerald in 2009. As for the Zebo thing, I think Schmidt and senior players have zero problems with him and his absence has been blown out of all proportion; people are just trying to square a circle and reading all kinds of things into his non-selection. People are just projecting their own biases onto a very straight forward scenario. Schmidt made a fairly conservative call, in all fairness, not to gamble on him initially and then when the back three combination proved to be very balanced and functioned well it was retained. Given the fact we won a title with the back three working well together in every game I refuse to criticise him for it.

To me, Zebo is certainly better than Dave Kearney as a winger. Initial game time would matter nothing had it been Sexton, Heaslip, BOD or POC. They would only have to prove that they are fit to start an International match I feel so I don't buy that excuse at all. If a player is the best option in his position then he should be picked. Zebo was picked for Argentina and again proved what an excellent player he is but being picked for an experimental tour (which is pretty much what it seemed to be) does not mean that he is still in JS's mind set for the next squads.

"To me, Zebo is certainly better than Dave Kearney as a winger."

I'm better than Dave Kearney as a winger.......and I never was a winger....

Schmidt is at it again, I see.

Joe!!! Shut it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop continually bringing up the name Simon Zebo!!!!!!!!!!

Give it a break, Joe! We heard you the first time. We know you don't like him but stop always bringing his name up - over and over and over again. Leave it out - the season is over and, in any case, there are more players hovering in and around this Irish team than Simon Zebo.
Is it an obsession, Joe? Is that what it is?

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:This is the guy who started our last two tests and is on his way to becoming established first choice.

My take is and always has been- Zebo didn't have that much game time before the Six Nations and that influenced the initial selection call for the Scotland game. The results without him were good, the wingers were performing their roles well in defence and at the breakdown- albeit only Trimble really sparked in attack- so he favoured continuity in selection for the rest of the tournament.

Dave Kearney in the Six Nations this year reminds me a lot of Luke Fitzgerald in 2009. As for the Zebo thing, I think Schmidt and senior players have zero problems with him and his absence has been blown out of all proportion; people are just trying to square a circle and reading all kinds of things into his non-selection. People are just projecting their own biases onto a very straight forward scenario. Schmidt made a fairly conservative call, in all fairness, not to gamble on him initially and then when the back three combination proved to be very balanced and functioned well it was retained. Given the fact we won a title with the back three working well together in every game I refuse to criticise him for it.

To me, Zebo is certainly better than Dave Kearney as a winger. Initial game time would matter nothing had it been Sexton, Heaslip, BOD or POC. They would only have to prove that they are fit to start an International match I feel so I don't buy that excuse at all. If a player is the best option in his position then he should be picked. Zebo was picked for Argentina and again proved what an excellent player he is but being picked for an experimental tour (which is pretty much what it seemed to be) does not mean that he is still in JS's mind set for the next squads.

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger we have in Ireland for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. Not even Tommy Bowe is, because he can be replaced more easily, never mind Zebo. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Seriously lads, I would like to see Zebo continue in the team building towards the World Cup and don't rate Kearney that much as an individual (though as a team player his qualities are established) but it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the most simple explanations and then call anyone who doesn't accept the conspiracy theories a sheep.

Notch wrote:

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Darn tootin'.

I was going to actually put a serious question to the natives here but you got in before me on the crux of the question I was going to put.

I was going to ask that with all the publicity (fun, games, bile and bitterness) that this one player has recieved since he first came on the scene, I was going to ask the natives that with hand on heart and in all honesty, IS this ONE player named Simon Zebo the difference between an Irish side being good or truly great?
Do his constant supporters fully and truly believe that Ireland with him will be a markedly improved side?  Is he genuinely  that central to Ireland's future?

I want people to mark their cards early on that one because I don't want anyone slipping and sliding through their opinions in the future and saying they said this but didn't mean that.  What do you all mean?  Is Zebo essential?  Or can any 'ultility idiot' (like D Kearney for example) continue to hold the fort sufficently and fit into Joe's system sufficently to negate the need for Zippizebo?

Notch wrote:

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger we have in Ireland for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. Not even Tommy Bowe is, because he can be replaced more easily, never mind Zebo. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Seriously lads, I would like to see Zebo continue in the team building towards the World Cup and don't rate Kearney that much as an individual (though as a team player his qualities are established) but it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the most simple explanations and then call anyone who doesn't accept the conspiracy theories a sheep.

Fair response Notch but I do believe that Zebo is that kind of player that brings the extra spark in attack so if fit, should start. My point was that he was left out due to not enough game time and I think that is the wrong assumption given the examples I have used. I also disagree with Tommy Bowe, when he was on form he was one of the best wingers Ireland have ever had and he would certainly be brought into a side (without game time) if he was proven fit. I think that Zebo has proved that he is more than 'up to it' at test level, this is not hype, the guy is seriously good.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Darn tootin'.

I was going to actually put a serious question to the natives here but you got in before me on the crux of the question I was going to put.

I was going to ask that with all the publicity (fun, games, bile and bitterness) that this one player has recieved since he first came on the scene, I was going to ask the natives that with hand on heart and in all honesty, IS this ONE player named Simon Zebo the difference between an Irish side being good or truly great?
Do his constant supporters fully and truly believe that Ireland with him will be a markedly improved side?  Is he genuinely  that central to Ireland's future?

I want people to mark their cards early on that one because I don't want anyone slipping and sliding through their opinions in the future and saying they said this but didn't mean that.  What do you all mean?  Is Zebo essential?  Or can any 'ultility idiot' (like D Kearney for example) continue to hold the fort sufficently and fit into Joe's system sufficently to negate the need for Zippizebo?

I did not say that Dave Kearney was a utility idiot, in fact I thought that he played well in the 6N. I simply feel that Zebo is a better winger than him. In response to your question as to if I think Zebo is essential to the team, yes I think that he is now and will certainly be in the future.

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to exploitation of either racist or anti-racist attitudes by accusing others of racism.

I didn't accuse anyone of being a racist though.

You did ask what playing the race card meant

I wanted to find out how people defined racism.

Not appreciating that the laid back nature caribbean attitude to life and the need to conform to the anglo saxon/celtic attitude to life is a form of racism (i.e., our way is better than your way). We need to imbrace diversity.

Notch wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:This is the guy who started our last two tests and is on his way to becoming established first choice.

My take is and always has been- Zebo didn't have that much game time before the Six Nations and that influenced the initial selection call for the Scotland game. The results without him were good, the wingers were performing their roles well in defence and at the breakdown- albeit only Trimble really sparked in attack- so he favoured continuity in selection for the rest of the tournament.

Dave Kearney in the Six Nations this year reminds me a lot of Luke Fitzgerald in 2009. As for the Zebo thing, I think Schmidt and senior players have zero problems with him and his absence has been blown out of all proportion; people are just trying to square a circle and reading all kinds of things into his non-selection. People are just projecting their own biases onto a very straight forward scenario. Schmidt made a fairly conservative call, in all fairness, not to gamble on him initially and then when the back three combination proved to be very balanced and functioned well it was retained. Given the fact we won a title with the back three working well together in every game I refuse to criticise him for it.

To me, Zebo is certainly better than Dave Kearney as a winger. Initial game time would matter nothing had it been Sexton, Heaslip, BOD or POC. They would only have to prove that they are fit to start an International match I feel so I don't buy that excuse at all. If a player is the best option in his position then he should be picked. Zebo was picked for Argentina and again proved what an excellent player he is but being picked for an experimental tour (which is pretty much what it seemed to be) does not mean that he is still in JS's mind set for the next squads.

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger we have in Ireland for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. Not even Tommy Bowe is, because he can be replaced more easily, never mind Zebo. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Seriously lads, I would like to see Zebo continue in the team building towards the World Cup and don't rate Kearney that much as an individual (though as a team player his qualities are established) but it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the most simple explanations and then call anyone who doesn't accept the conspiracy theories a sheep.

Schmidt had no problem selecting a semi-fit POM during the Six Nations even though he must have had several backrowers who could have done a job there for him.

Zebo was fit and scoring tries for fun for Munster at the time.

Zebo, Kearney and Trimble will be all dropped for Earls, Fitzgerald & Bowe if they ever get fit again, though Zebo has really put it up to Joe now to select him after him saving his skin in Argentina.

You marked your card, Nachos...and my thanks for that.  That's all I can ask of a man here.

I'll say no, I don't consider him essential yet.  I think he's agile, and has fast reflexes in certain situations that could very well make him a hattrick scorer easily in any given game when given the right system playform of support play around him.  
But as you are true to your conscience so have I to be true to mine.  I think his reputation (on the playing field - his nightlife laid-back reputation I'm not interested in) has fast outgrowen his actual proven abilities so far.  That might change - I hope that it does.  But for now, this aura that Ireland not only should have him, but MUST have him is for me overcooked and media led.

I hope Zebo becomes what a good few people here think he already is at International level - but for me, he isn't there yet.

I would like to pose a question to you SecretFly,

Have you actually followed Zebo's career or are you forming your opinions on him based on what you have seen of him fleetingly or what I suspect, forming your opinion on him by what Schmidt says?

What makes Zebo an excellent winger (even cover 15) are the following:

Excellent speed
solid defence
Excellent running lines and support play
Good hands in offloads
Work ethic (never shy's away from work and goes looking for the ball)
One hell of a long kick off his left peg.

If you can show me one other winger that brings more to the Ireland side then I would be surprised.

I'd add in chasing and reclaiming restarts
Good in the air
Great finisher.
Fastest player we have
Big game player.

He is no Julian Saliva, but none of our other players are as well rounded as he is.

Fair inclusions Sin é.

These are the reasons why I feel that Zebo is essential to Ireland going forward. A few core players in which you build the side around are essential and I honestly feel that Zebo is one of them.

Nachos Jones wrote:I would like to pose a question to you SecretFly,

Have you actually followed Zebo's career or are you forming your opinions on him based on what you have seen of him fleetingly or what I suspect, forming your opinion on him by what Schmidt says?

When I ask that question of you then I'll allow you to ask me.  I've been here since before this 606v2 began and I've watched rugby long long before the old BBC 606 began.  I see what I see and I rate players based on what I see - not on what other people (be they coaches or fans) say and not remotely based on what team they play for.

You see, the continuing thing about you, Nachos, is that you're continually offended by my opinion of Zebo - offended that someone else would express less enthusiasm for him.  I keep saying I hope he grows into the player I'd like him to be but in my opinion he isn't there yet - and you keep saying I'm out to do him down and ridicule him.  No I ain't.  I'm seeing him differently to you, that's all.  I see what I see not what you see.  I'm perfectly happy to accept you don't agree with me but this notion that my opinion offends you is a little more difficult to take.  

A few years back when people were screaming out to drop overblown plaudits onto Ritchie Gray's crown, I stepped back from the 'sheep' and said he didn't impress me all that much, had a lot of weaknesses that people seemed to overlook.  Good but certainly not world shatteringly great, like many of his admirers claimed at the time.  I was often attacked but I kept to my opinion because it's an honest one.
I remember also being less than enamoured with Jason Robinson when most rugby watchers were busy doing the hero worship on him.  I said a lot of his movements were counterproductive when with ball and just allowed opposition to set him up for a fall.  He had talent but he had his faults.  All players do, I reckon but some players seem to command this media fed idea that they have none - and that all criticism is salacious and thefore unlawful.  Some players just seem to create cults around them.  
But I see what I see.  When Zebo becomes the player I'd like him to be, I'll be the first to say it... without any prompting. I'll join his cult

PS...Earls, a player perhaps more universally underplayed and criticised as just so-so talented in comparison to someone like Zebo is a player I'd personally rank high.  Earls is a player I really like and I think he and Schmidt could form a great relationship of tactics and talent.  
Not many observers here would rush to agree with me but there you go.  I see what see and stand by it regardless of how at variance it might be to the overall climate of opinions.

SecretFly,
 
I am not offended by you or your opinions on Zebo. I was simply asking you a question because so far what you have said about Zebo has been wrong so I was simply wondering where you got the information from to form your opinion.
 
You have claimed that Zebo is poor defensively... Proven wrong although its not something that people who have watched Zebo's career were even worried about.
You then went on to to claim that he bounces off tackles... Again proven wrong since he made a couple of impressive tackles which have led to turnovers in the recent series.

Zebo has not emerged under Schmidt this series as many have claimed, he has not played any differently than he has all season.
 
I never claimed that you didn't want Zebo in the side (although based on your invention of facts I can understand why your mind may see this).
 
I am very happy for you that you have been a member before the old 606, so was I and many others so I don't think that has any bearing on backing up your ill-judged opinions. I cant see how being a member of a forum for so long makes your opinions have more bite than others but hey ho, each to their own

Nachos Jones wrote:SecretFly,
 
I am not offended by you or your opinions on Zebo. I was simply asking you a question because so far what you have said about Zebo has been wrong so I was simply wondering where you got the information from to form your opinion.
 
You have claimed that Zebo is poor defensively... Proven wrong although its not something that people who have watched Zebo's career were even worried about.
You then went on to to claim that he bounces off tackles... Again proven wrong since he made a couple of impressive tackles which have led to turnovers in the recent series.

Zebo has not emerged under Schmidt this series as many have claimed, he has not played any differently than he has all season.
 
I never claimed that you didn't want Zebo in the side (although based on your invention of facts I can understand why your mind may see this).
 
I am very happy for you that you have been a member before the old 606, so was I and many others so I don't think that has any bearing on backing up your ill-judged opinions. I cant see how being a member of a forum for so long makes your opinions have more bite than others but hey ho, each to their own  

I'm not the one questioning your credentials to have an opinion ...you, on the other hand and by your question, did question mine.  

Thus the answer to that question.  

Thus the notion that I've been around rugby a lot longer than Schmidt has been coach.  I don't need to feed on his opinion to collect my own from observation - observation - watching players do their thing on a field - follow their careers.

I'll decide when I'm 'wrong' about Zebo in the aspects of his game that I criticise.  I'll decide that - not the cult members

PS - my opinions DO offend you.  Clear as day that my opinions offend you.  If I truely believed it was a case of "each to their own" we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Oh SecretFly.

You do not understand. I question your opinions based on the fact that your opinions have been wrong and you have been forced to back track several times, even to the point of inventing facts to suit your opinion (Zebo cant tackle, oh wait he can but you know what.. He bounces off tackles   ). You have also not countered my points on what makes Zebo an excellent winger (fullback) because I suspect you cant so you twist and turn the discussion to avoid that

Anyways, I sense you are getting hot under the collar so I will leave this debate for now. Have a nice day   

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase that refers to exploitation of either racist or anti-racist attitudes by accusing others of racism.

I didn't accuse anyone of being a racist though.

You did ask what playing the race card meant

I wanted to find out how people defined racism.

Not appreciating that the laid back nature caribbean attitude to life and the need to conform to the anglo saxon/celtic attitude to life is a form of racism (i.e., our way is better than your way). We need to imbrace diversity.

Most people would say that a laid back attitude to life is an Irish trait,if you want to find a an example of an Irish rugby player who gets stick for that attitude you can look to one of your favourite punch bags Jamie Heaslip.

Maybe the people who can't appreciate the laid back nature Irish attitude to life and the need to conform to the anglo saxon/celtic attitude to life is are practising a form of racism (i.e., our way is better than your way).

Here's an article I found with one quick search which backs up my point,it's old but I doubt our attitudes have changed that much since it was published.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/laidback-irish-the-best-at-enjoying-quality-time-26144458.html

Nachos Jones wrote:Oh SecretFly.

You do not understand. I question your opinions based on the fact that your opinions have been wrong and you have been forced to back track several times, even to the point of inventing facts to suit your opinion (Zebo cant tackle, oh wait he can but you know what.. He bounces off tackles   ). You have also not countered my points on what makes Zebo an excellent winger (fullback) because I suspect you cant so you twist and turn the discussion to avoid that

Anyways, I sense you are getting hot under the collar so I will leave this debate for now. Have a nice day   

No, no, no - easy get-out clause invoked by you there, Nachos.  I'm afraid you're right in that I don't have a bucket of cold water on me but I'm not the one in flames  You just can't argue when Zebo is the ingredient, Nachos.  You've been consumed by the cult.  

Oh well, my anti brainwashing crusade will continue onto another topic.  My new crusade will be to show people why R Kearney can't be our 15 deadcerter into the future.  Will you at least get on board that train with me?  No?
Have a good one, Nachos

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger we have in Ireland for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. Not even Tommy Bowe is, because he can be replaced more easily, never mind Zebo. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Seriously lads, I would like to see Zebo continue in the team building towards the World Cup and don't rate Kearney that much as an individual (though as a team player his qualities are established) but it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the most simple explanations and then call anyone who doesn't accept the conspiracy theories a sheep.

Fair response Notch but I do believe that Zebo is that kind of player that brings the extra spark in attack so if fit, should start. My point was that he was left out due to not enough game time and I think that is the wrong assumption given the examples I have used. I also disagree with Tommy Bowe, when he was on form he was one of the best wingers Ireland have ever had and he would certainly be brought into a side (without game time) if he was proven fit. I think that Zebo has proved that he is more than 'up to it' at test level, this is not hype, the guy is seriously good.

Well he played for Ulster on the 14th of March so he was obviously fit yet he wasn't picked to play against France.Schmidt will make exceptions for certain players but Zebo isn't at that level yet.If all our wingers are fit he might make the team and he might not,Earls,Trimble and Bowe will give him stiff competition,I'd say he's fairly level with those guys but he's not obviously better than them,I'd be happy with any 2 of those 4 playing on the wing for us.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:

I don't buy that Zebo, or any other winger we have in Ireland for that matter, is anywhere near the status of Sexton, BOD, POC, Heaslip etc. Not even Tommy Bowe is, because he can be replaced more easily, never mind Zebo. I think it's pure fantasy to pretend thats the case. With those players a) there is a massive drop off in quality when they are absent, whereas we have five or six wingers who can do a great job b) those players are established leaders of the team while Zebo is only at the start of his career and c) those players are proven quantities that any coach can depend on for a big performance, whereas Zebo has yet to really show he can live up to the hype that surrounds him at test level- promising start but still a long way off being talked about in the same breath as the guys you list.

Seriously lads, I would like to see Zebo continue in the team building towards the World Cup and don't rate Kearney that much as an individual (though as a team player his qualities are established) but it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the most simple explanations and then call anyone who doesn't accept the conspiracy theories a sheep.

Fair response Notch but I do believe that Zebo is that kind of player that brings the extra spark in attack so if fit, should start. My point was that he was left out due to not enough game time and I think that is the wrong assumption given the examples I have used. I also disagree with Tommy Bowe, when he was on form he was one of the best wingers Ireland have ever had and he would certainly be brought into a side (without game time) if he was proven fit. I think that Zebo has proved that he is more than 'up to it' at test level, this is not hype, the guy is seriously good.

Aye he's good. But he's not irreplaceable. Put it like this; if it was announced tomorrow that Zebo had an injury that ruled him out of rugby until after the next World Cup it wouldn't affect my appraisal of our chances between now and then in any way. Whereas if we were without Best, Ross, O'Connell, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Kearney Snr. etc that would be a massive blow.

Zebo is good, hope to see more chances come his way if his form remains constant but the job Schmidt wants our wingers to do I think he is one of five or six players who can do it so I just really struggle to get annoyed about it. Whoever we pick our back three will be good. Zebo and Trimble could just as easily be Kearney and Gilroy or Earls and Bowe and I wouldn't mind, we wouldn't be weakened really. The margins between all are incredibly fine I think Trimble is in pole position after the season he's had and Zebo is in the chasing pack with the other four lads and Fitzgerald.

Basically, given the strength in depth, wing is the least important area for me in terms of selection. You can't go wrong.

The job Joe wants our wingers to do......not score tries it appears...


Anyhow regardless of whether Savea declares for Ireland or whatever we wont have any midfield to get the ball to our wings or back three by the time of the world cup.

Oh just to swing past the bit I missed as I dissed, as it were.  My 'avoidance' of the qualities Zebo has as a wing.  Missed that part when I was trying to get out of the burning house.  So here goes now - encapsulating both Nachos' and Sin's list.  

Excellent speed - Yes

solid defence - Room for improvement.  Argentina fine against the level of competition Argentina were.  They're not the level we'll be meeting in Autumn

Excellent running lines and support play - Room for improvement at International level - as do most of our guys.  That's the bit Joe is working on.

Good hands in offloads - Yes

Work ethic (never shy's away from work and goes looking for the ball) - Room for Improvement on the "Never" bit.  Argentina level fine - liked it

One hell of a long kick off his left peg. - Yes

I'd add in chasing and reclaiming restarts - Yes

Good in the air - Yes

Great finisher. - Excellente

Fastest player we have - well Rodders said he'd get back to us about that.  He questions the truth of that one.  But I don't care personally.  He's plenty fast enough to get the job done; ie scoring or supporting tries, which of course uses speed but speed isn't the only factor.

Big game player. - As big as the rest of the herd, certainly not notable in that regard as an exception to the general rule.  Irish players tend to like big games as a general rule.  It's the little games that I constantly hark on about as games that Irish players by tradition tend to give less of themselves to.


So what's that?  Six out of Eleven in agreement.  Three Room for Improvements.  One questionable statistic that rodders says he doesn't like the sound of.  And One that I wouldn't hold Zebo as being anything more than his colleagues on.

Not a bad scorecard at all Zeebs from a non-Cult member.  You're doing ok...Room for Improvements.