Ireland (Summer Tour Part 2 and General Discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from;

https://www.606v2.com/t53276p1000-ireland-s-summer-tour

I don't really like a lot of Canterburys stuff now. Hope they don't feck it all up

They tend to keep it simple and even if they don't it's much more confortable to wear, you should know discomfort being an Ulsterman Notch, I mean Kukri is the most uncomfortable brand I've ever worn since being bedecked in pure wool items as a child

Puma just looks.......well dare I say it.......soccerish

Cronin that's it.

I just liked seeing Stuart olding in there...a lot! This makes me very excited that he may have a good shout at breaking in. Also saw he shaw, Marmion and ah-you are in.

Again I'd ask, Luke Fitzgerald?

No sign of Luke Fitzgerald but Jared Payne was definitely there.

Check your provincial websites as to who is there:

Munster players (14):
Robin Copeland, James Cronin, Dave Foley, Dave Kilcoyne, Paul O'Connell, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan, Keith Earls, Felix Jones, Ian Keatley, Conor Murray and Simon Zebo.

Delighted for Ian Keatley to make it. He deserves it at this stage.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ulsters-jared-payne-to-make-debut-with-ireland-squad-30500566.html

THE race to succeed Brian O’Driscoll as Ireland’s No 13 has begun at Carton House, where Jared Payne has linked up with the squad for the first time.

The New Zealand-born Ulster player qualifies to play for Ireland through residency next month and will be eligible to make his début in November.

Joe Schmidt has assembled 46 players for a three-day camp where he will review last season and plan for the upcoming campaign.

While the IRFU don’t confirm squad details for such gatherings, the Irish Independent understands that Payne has joined up with the panel, along with Robbie Henshaw, who is expected to be his main rival for the No 13 shirt.

Meanwhile, Leinster are understood to be lining up a move to bring Leicester’s Niall Morris back to the province at the end of the upcoming season.

isnt fitz still recovering from surgery?

Niall Morris eh? About damn time I think!
Glad to hear Payne and henshaw are up for the 13 position.

It Paynes me to say this (see what I did there....genius) but I have yet to see Jared perform well with a 13 on his back whilst he has been on Irish soil. Unless he regains the form he had at outside centre for the Blues he won't be nailing down the Irish 13 shirt any time soon.
I do however think he has it in him to rediscover that kind of form and do a brilliant job in the Irish colours. It's all a wee bit exciting

Personally, I'd prefer henshaw in the shirt and believe he could arguably be better than Payne at 13. I'm really excited by the lad.

My dream is a back line of

Marmion-sexton
Olding-henshaw
Earls-Zebo-Fitzgerald

Fit and firing obviously

I reckon Marmion would have some job displacing Murray Pete. Earls and Fitzy may never see a green shirt again I reckon, Zebo however will see plenty of it for many years. If Olding and Henshaw were to click we'd be well sorted for a long, long time to come in the centre.

9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Olding
13 Henshaw
14 Trimble
15 Payne


Now you're talkin

I don't really know much about Olding, except that he's an exciting young back. Is he good enough to displace D'arcy yet? D'arcy has been great for a decade but I'd love a better young player to replace him soon, or at least give him tough competition for the 12 jersey.

Why wouldn't Earls play for Ireland again. Not many Irish players have his pace and finishing ability. I'd be all for Zebo at fullback because he's more exciting to watch than Kearney, but obviously Kearney is very hard to drop since he's so experienced and so dominant in the air.

Not yet feckless, but mark my words- he will be bursting onto the scene sooner rather than later.

100% with you re: fitz. Earls has been massively unlucky too. Marmion probably won't get ahead of Murray for a few years, I was talking in dream land.

Olding is class. He is quick and agile. He is a good distributor and runs good lines in support and off first receivers. He can kick well enough. Doesn't appear in anyway poor in defence but he has not been tested too much here IMO.

I think he has a very good chance of leap frogging Marshall early this year and quite possibly getting into the Irish squad for the autumn. Maybe some game time versus Georgia? It's not that hard to believe and who knows what could happen then.

I see that Leinster has signed NZer Ben Te'o at center (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/leinster-sign-centre-ben-teo-30501867.html). I wonder if they are looking for Ireland qualification (he might be too old). he qualifies for NZ and Samoa. He's a good league center/forward who played in this years state of origin (which is highest point in rugby league) but never played for Australia.

He's a 27 year old South Sydney player who moved to Keebra Park School on a league scholarship when he was 17 (same deal as Benji Marshall). I think he's got a union background (I'm pretty sure he grew up playing union - that's not to say he didn't play league as well).

He's said a major reason for the move is an assault claim he's been cleared of, but still gets abuse for in Australia.

Could be a hit, could be a miss. It's a big risk to sign a league player. When it works is spectacular but for every Sonny Bill Williams there's a Karmichael Hunt

With Jared Payne, Bundee Aki and Ben Te'o we're coming down with NIQ centres who can qualify on residency. I'd rather we just used our homegrown players but this is the modern game... wish the IRB would do something about it.

Payne is already in the fold, the other two have three years before it becomes an issue. Te'o has only been signed for two years initially so it looks like he's not being groomed- thank god.

where is all this hype around olding coming from? he has only played 15 games and has been out for a season with a serious knee injury.

dont get me wrong i would love to see him be the answer to our 12 prayers but he still has so much to prove to start for Ulster never mind Ireland

You know class when you see it and in Olding there is class to burn. He's not just a decent player who will come good with some gametime, he has the vision and ability to read the game way ahead of his years and simply seems to knowwhat to do before anyone else. He is the most exciting player I've seen in years coming out of Ireland, wait and see, hopefully the year out won't have tarnished his abilities.

Feckless I don't see Earls nailing down a starting place unless he lives up to the promise he showed in the past. I mean I've just ranted about Stuart Olding but if he fails to live up to the promise shown he too will fall by the wayside. Ireland will have centres galore to choose from, wingers who are faster, more alert and better finishers than Earls and fullback will have Chilli holding tightly to the shirt. For that matter if a centre partnership sparks up without Payne at 13 then he will be wrestling with Kearney for the 15 shirt. Where would Earls fit in? I would love to see him up a gear or two because he's a class act when performing well.

Strong competition on Chilli for the fullback jersey will be good to keep him on top of his game (every player really needs someone in reserve driving them on, just look at Healy since McGrath started to kick on.. plenty of other examples as well).

I hope Olding gets a good run of games injury free. He could occupy an Irish centre position for a good few years. Or he could end up like O'Malley.

Pete330v2 wrote:Where would Earls fit in? I would love to see him up a gear or two because he's a class act when performing well.

Up his performance? Have you watched him at all recently? Nothing wrong with his performances. The problem he has is staying fit. The fact that he can has played pretty much every position from 11 out internationally means that he will have no problem fitting into any team.

Like Luke Fitz, keeping fit is the only thing that will keep him out of Joe's team.

blackcanelion wrote:I see that Leinster has signed NZer Ben Te'o at center (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/leinster-sign-centre-ben-teo-30501867.html). I wonder if they are looking for Ireland qualification (he might be too old). he qualifies for NZ and Samoa. He's a good league center/forward who played in this years state of origin (which is highest point in rugby league) but never played for Australia.

He's a 27 year old South Sydney player who moved to Keebra Park School on a league scholarship when he was 17 (same deal as Benji Marshall). I think he's got a union background (I'm pretty sure he grew up playing union - that's not to say he didn't play league as well).

He's said a major reason for the move is an assault claim he's been cleared of, but still gets abuse for in Australia.

It is such a Matt O'Connor signing. Really dont like the direction he is taking Leinster in. They are playing like a mid table top 14 team; very one dimensional with an over reliance on kicking and grunt.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Where would Earls fit in? I would love to see him up a gear or two because he's a class act when performing well.

Up his performance? Have you watched him at all recently? Nothing wrong with his performances. The problem he has is staying fit. The fact that he can has played pretty much every position from 11 out internationally means that he will have no problem fitting into any team.

Like Luke Fitz, keeping fit is the only thing that will keep him out of Joe's team.

I would have Earls in nearly every Ireland squad. I be tempted to give him plenty of bench time both to keep him hungry and to make an impact in the last 20 mins. For me he is a very talented player.

Oh he is extremely talented and yes I've seen him playing for Munster last season Sin and he's been outstanding. He just doesn't seem to transfer the Munster form into international form which has always frustrated me because believe it or not I am and always have been a fan of Keith Earls.
He is a damn good bench option due to his versatility but on a starting XV I believe there are others who are rightfully ahead of him in every position.

Of all players in Ireland, Earls is probably the last one who needs to be kept hungry. He is a confidence player and his workrate is exceptional. Murray Kinsella did an analysis of Munster v Toulouse in the score in which Earls features a lot for his excellent rucking. Now we all know that Joe likes his wings to be good ruck resourcers.

----

A winger is not just a finisher anymore

Joe Schmidt can take credit for bringing hard-working, ruck-hitting wings firmly into the public consciousness, but he is not the only coach who expects his wide men to do more than dance their way over the tryline to finish off teammates’ good work.

Here, we look at the contributions of Keith Earls in the build-up to his own try ..........

http://www.thescore.ie/munster-analysis-toulouse-heineken-cup-1403571-Apr2014/

Pete330v2 wrote:Oh he is extremely talented and yes I've seen him playing for Munster last season Sin and he's been outstanding. He just doesn't seem to transfer the Munster form into international form which has always frustrated me because believe it or not I am and always have been a fan of Keith Earls.
He is a damn good bench option due to his versatility but on a starting XV I believe there are others who are rightfully ahead of him in every position.

Pete, he hasn't played for Ireland since Italy in the 6 Nations in 2013 (missing 2 tours 1x6 nations and AIs).

Joe Schmidt is a big fan of Earls and the fact that his international contract was renewed when he was still injured suggests he is high up in the Ireland pecking order when there is no need unless the Ireland management want to manage him as its highly unlikely that Earls would leave Limerick for a better payday elsewhere.

I'm interested to see how the provinces line out their centres this year. With the talent we have at flyhalf at the moment I've a sneaky feeling we're going to see a shift towards a 2nd 5/8 being adopted.
In Leinster I'm thinking Madigan and Reid may share the role and D'Arcy shift out to 13 until Te'o arrives anyway.
In Ulster given Marshall's injury woes I won't be surprised to see Olding take the spot.
In Munster could we see Hanrahan starting at 12 to accomodate him and Keatley?
Connacht will likely be the exception with Aki.
If this is the case I'd expect we'd see a similar shift at International level with one of these players lining up alongside a bigger man like Henshaw. May spell the end for D'Arcy. Just conjecture but interesting times ahead.

2nd 5/8? Who says that outside of NZ?

Well me apparently

GunsGerms wrote:2nd 5/8? Who says that outside of NZ?

Considerably easier to write than "a playmaker at 12".

I think if we do go down that route and I think we will as Darcy and Marshall are the only 12s we have not in that mould, then we do need to have strike runners further out. Guys like Zebo, Earls, Fitz, Bowe.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: I think if we do go down that route and I think we will as Darcy and Marshall are the only 12s we have not in that mould.

Actually Marshall is in the mould of a playmaking 12. He played at 10 through school and club level (he even played at 10 against Paddy Jackson in the schools cup final). He was intially reluctant to move to 12 but it was a quicker route to getting senior caps with Ulster. At the time he said his inspiration was Daniel Carter who started at 12 before moving to 10.

Unfortunatly for him, coaches saw his size started using him as crash ball merchant, we don't get a chance to see much of his playmaking skills anymore. I'm not sure he still has any ambition to move to 10, but the playmaking skills are in there somewhere.

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: I think if we do go down that route and I think we will as Darcy and Marshall are the only 12s we have not in that mould.

Actually Marshall is in the mould of a playmaking 12. He played at 10 through school and club level (he even played at 10 against Paddy Jackson in the schools cup final). He was intially reluctant to move to 12 but it was a quicker route to getting senior caps with Ulster. At the time he said his inspiration was Daniel Carter who started at 12 before moving to 10.

Unfortunatly for him, coaches saw his size started using him as crash ball merchant, we don't get a chance to see much of his playmaking skills anymore. I'm not sure he still has any ambition to move to 10, but the playmaking skills are in there somewhere.

I know that he used to play 10 but I don't think he wants to at this level or if he wanted to, that he could. Thescore.ie did a good piece after the first Argentina game that showed Cave and Marshall using different passes to great effect and I would agree that he has creative skills and is a good passer. However, be it the coaches fault or not, he is being used provincially and internationally as a physical and direct runner in midfield. I don't think it's fair to say he is a playmaker at 12 the way so many other 12s are (Giteau, Wallace, etc)

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:Actually Marshall is in the mould of a playmaking 12. He played at 10 through school and club level (he even played at 10 against Paddy Jackson in the schools cup final).

Not strictly true RBTP, I don't think Methody have ever played BA in the Schools cup final. Neither did Marshall play against Jackson in the 2010 semi due to injury.

I also disagree that Marshall is a 'playmaker'. He has really good passing skills, is a decent runner and has a fair range of accurate kicks. However he is an opportunist who will exploit defensive weaknesses as they arise rather than have a more strategic view of the game. I don't think coaches could rely on him to execute their wishes at the expense of his own in the heat of battle. This is one of the reasons Anscombe tried to simplify his game to the level of bosh merchant. Kiss has considerably more attention to detail than MA and hopefully can open up opportunities for Luke to once again blow the dust off the underused tools in his kitbag. Given his injury record at 12 I'd not sure whether he should consider reverting to his first love and play more at 10.

The bigger question is why does Sexton need a playmaking 12 in the first place? Neither did Schmidt need one at Leinster so why does he need one at Ireland?

Yeah I see Olding as a more natural playmaker than Marshall because Olding is a big picture player. He has more natural vision. Marshall is more of an off the cuff player as opposed to someone who naturally reads a game and engineers opportunities for the players around him. Thats what all the good midfield playmakers do.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/magic-glasses-give-outhalf-ian-mckinley-his-second-shot-1.1896043

Nice article on Ian McKinley, who just got a pro contract with Viadana. He wears special glasses to make up for his partial sight in one eye.

Great news for him, that he can still make a career from the sport he loves. Looked a very good player before his accident

The Great Aukster wrote:

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:Actually Marshall is in the mould of a playmaking 12. He played at 10 through school and club level (he even played at 10 against Paddy Jackson in the schools cup final).

Not strictly true RBTP, I don't think Methody have ever played BA in the Schools cup final. Neither did Marshall play against Jackson in the 2010 semi due to injury.

I stand corrected! Although they may have played against each other in the 2008 semi-final. I'm 90% sure they have played other and Jacko came out on top.

I don't think that Marshall will ever play 10 again (or even that would want to), and it's fair to say we have some better "playmaking" 12s available (particularly Olding and Madigan). I just thought it unfair to disregard the skills that got Marshall to senior rugby, just because he hasn't had an opportunity to showcase them in a while.

The Great Aukster wrote: The bigger question is why does Sexton need a playmaking 12 in the first place? Neither did Schmidt need one at Leinster so why does he need one at Ireland?

True, it's a null point really

I'll tell you one thing, Olding will get the odd game at 10 for Ulster. Don't be surprised to see him covering out half in Ulster match day squads.

Notch wrote:I'll tell you one thing, Olding will get the odd game at 10 for Ulster. Don't be surprised to see him covering out half in Ulster match day squads.

What makes you say that Notch? Isn't Ian Humphreys coming back?

He is indeed, but they'll want to have two outside backs on the bench and Olding can cover 10.

Not only that, Humphreys has been brought back to play in the Pro12. If Jackson is ruled out of a major European game I think Olding would definitely be ahead of Humph in the pecking order due to the simple fact Humphreys is a liability in defence- always has been. Imagine Toulon sending some of their big ball carriers down his channel. Shudder to think about it!

Golden wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/magic-glasses-give-outhalf-ian-mckinley-his-second-shot-1.1896043

Nice article on Ian McKinley, who just got a pro contract with Viadana. He wears special glasses to make up for his partial sight in one eye.

Great news for him, that he can still make a career from the sport he loves. Looked a very good player before his accident

Delighted for the fella, most Leinster fans saw him as winning the battle against Madigan to become Sexton's backup at Leinster. Would be very interesting to see what he would be at now had he not picked up such a freak injury.

Notch wrote:He is indeed, but they'll want to have two outside backs on the bench and Olding can cover 10.

Not only that, Humphreys has been brought back to play in the Pro12. If Jackson is ruled out of a major European game I think Olding would definitely be ahead of Humph in the pecking order due to the simple fact Humphreys is a liability in defence- always has been. Imagine Toulon sending some of their big ball carriers down his channel. Shudder to think about it!

Did Olding play much 10 back in 2012-13? I thought his primary positions were fullback and inside centre??

What would you reckon will be the make up of the Ulster first choice team from outside centre to back 3? Where to Cave, Payne and Gilroy fit???

He was being groomed as a 10 before his injury due to the underwhelming performances of James McKinney. The game he got injured in was for the Ulster Ravens were he played 10 for 80 minutes to prepare him for a start there the next week for Ulster. And of course, he also played 10 all through school and for all the Irish underage sides. He's also a very handy goal kicker. He could be similar to Madigan in the role he fills coming off the bench as an attack minded 10- reports are he's been spending a lot of time at 10 in training (as well as centre of course)

I don't think Cave and Gilroy will make the first choice team for Leicester if everyone is fit an available. But they still have time to change that. It's a very open race with many quality players going head to head.

The way I see it right now;

9. Pienaar
10. Jackson
11. Trimble
12. Olding
13. Payne
14. Bowe
15. Ludik

21. P. Marshall 22. L. Marshall 23. Gilroy

That said, Olding could miss out as I think they are going to ease him back in at the start of the season to make sure he's not rushed back and the injury is A-OK. I think they are targeting him being fully integrated by the Heineken Cup but of someone else puts their hand up he could wind up on the bench.

Who is Ludik? Foreign import? Have I missed something big?

Also, have you got someone "in-the-know" telling you this NOtch re: Cave and Gilroy not making it and Olding being eased into it?

Not thats just my opinion on Gilroy and Cave, someone has to lose out and several players who are good enough for test rugby will face that. Payne being moved to centre will have that effect.

Louis Ludik is a South African fullback who used to play for the Sharks and Agen. He's signed for Ulster quite a long time ago.

You reckon Payne to centre is a bit of a definite at this stage? Orders from Lansdowne?

Totally missed that signing, have been MIA for a while. What do Ulster fans make of him?

Aye... I sincerely doubt we would have signed a fullback if we didn't intend to play Payne at centre. We would surely have signed an NIQ back row.

Some fans were quite upset at his signing, on the basis they disagree with Payne moving to centre, but I don't think anyone doubts his pedigree as a hard-running, hard tackling, incredibly solid fullback.

Was gonna say, if a guy has been signed as a 15 (you've loadsa wingers so he won't be needed there) then it only makes sense Payne will play most of his rugby at 13 this season. That young homegrown 15 you have is pretty good too.

From an Irish perspective I'm glad we have another guy playing 13 but again we don't have much competition for rob. In my mind jones is so far out of his depth it's not fair, Zebo is an option but rarely plays there, there's nobody else in Leinster, ulster have Payne but tbh rob doesn't have a serious challenger

Notch wrote:Aye... I sincerely doubt we would have signed a fullback if we didn't intend to play Payne at centre. We would surely have signed an NIQ back row.

Some fans were quite upset at his signing, on the basis they disagree with Payne moving to centre, but I don't think anyone doubts his pedigree as a hard-running, hard tackling, incredibly solid fullback.

Murray Kinsella's analysis in the Score made him sound like a utility back. Seems he played 13 & 15 for Agen as well as on the wing. His defence seems to be very good.

Yeah, I suppose he is Sin. But considering we have multiple potential international players on the wing and at outside centre I reckon the IRFU wouldn't want us to use him in those positions.

I'd say cave will still be an option for 13, he's got to at least be second choice. Ulster have lots of good wing options too.

Of course he will be, it will be a big battle for that shirt.