Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

by **Notch** Mon 14 Jul - 15:20

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

by Kingshu Sun 26 Oct - 10:37

When Copeland was at Cardiff I said he was a player we could do with.

I rate Williams but I don't think he is up to this level, he is big gains and big losses and against average league teams his gains outweight his losses, against the very top teams (who are more clinical) his losses outweight his gains.

Wilson is around 32 and I would rather have had Copeland on the bench with a view to having taking the jersey.

We really need to get more depth in th ebackrow, and I can see the IRFU insist on one of our Centers move to Munster, I hope that we get someone like CJ Stander, Jordi Murphy, Rhys Ruddock in return.

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct - 10:39

SecretFly wrote:Didn't get to see the game. But the sparse highlights I did get to see suggests to me that the Ulster backs were flailing in defensive duties?

That observation could be completely wrong when viewed in the context of an overall game. But certainly it looked to me like Habana got an easier route through for his try than he should have expected and Ulster players seemed to have held a white flag up before the game ended?

It's not an indictment (saw too little of the game)...it's a question. Were Ulster falling too easily off tackles or finding themselves in positional no-man's-land in defence through the game?

No, very definitely not. In fact the defence from Ulster was very good with very few missed tackles and good positioning. You're talking about good attack not poor defence. Once Toulon have gone through 20 phases of keeping the ball alive and their big power runners have drawn defenders to them the space inevitably opens up. The amount of work they had to do to create those overlaps was immense, but they are the one side in Europe with the capacity to do that. What happened was we made all our tackles but our players pound for pound are losing out on physicality and size across the pitch, so we couldn't stop them from keeping the ball alive. Our positioning and scramble defence was very good but they won the collisions and thats how they were able to engineer space.

Same story in attack. We had as much of the ball but we weren't able to commit defenders like they did because we lack ball carriers across the whole team. They were simply bigger than us- what the missing ingredient was from previous big European days at Ravenhill was the physicality of a Stephen Ferris or an Iain Henderson or Dan Tuohy in defence and attack. They have a whole team of players with that power, we have no real carriers anywhere in our team. We actually did play quite well in the game, there were three key problems;

1) Carl Hayman has much more experience than Academy prop Andrew Warwick and he milked him for penalties at the scrum all game. A lesson for Warwick in 'the dark arts' and an important moment in his development as a player
2) We were unable to win the collisions in defence or attack, we were outmuscled across the pitch and lost the collisions. This is purely down to size- not coaching, not technique, we just don't have the players with the requisite physical presence in our squad at the moment.
3) In attack we had no hope of breaking them down with one out runners so we had to try and number up across the pitch and create overlaps. This left us under-resourced at the rucks. Their world class back row was able to get over our ball and either slow us down or turn us over at key moments. Our back row was not accurate enough at securing the ball. We weren't able to play to our strengths therefore, which was to get quick ball and keep the tempo high and tire out the bigger Toulon pack. Toulon keep the tempo slow when we had the ball and there can only be one winner if the tempo is kept slow against them.

No problems with effort from Ulster, or the game plan, or the execution yesterday. We were just outmuscled by a better team. Sh!t happens. The only player I'm genuinely disappointed with is Nick Williams, who was exceptionally poor when he came on. The rest gave it their best and it wasn't quite enough on the day. Thats life.

by The Great Aukster Sun 26 Oct - 11:07

clivemcl wrote:Ah Aukster, come on now, how does pitch leadership prevent that try from Toulon before half time?

I don't think 'plan' or 'strategy' ever goes against the basic principle of securing the breakdown and not taking an isolated carry...

It works like this Clive. Ulster are restarting with less than a minute to go on the clock.
Bad decision 1 - Jackson restarted to just outside their 22. Either you go to the 10m line to give your players the maximum chance to regain possession or you go deep into their 22 to make them play from as deep as possible and simply organise the defence until the end of the half.
Bad decision 2 - there were ample opportunities to get caught offside, or hands in the ruck when the ball was in the Toulon half and not enough time for them to do anything with the penalty.
Bad decision 3 - It was well worth risking a penalty when the ball was in the Ulster half by pushing right up and trying to force a turnover. It was outside the red zone and the worst outcome was another 3 points. A 12-3 deficit at the turn wouldn't have felt like a disaster given the wind.

Leadership isn't so much about charismatic speeches but rather making good decisions on the hoof. The decision to kick for the corner earlier in the game rather than take a very makeable kick was also symptomatic of muddled thinking. Rory Best himself mentioned the decision making after the game and indicated that's where Toulon were superior.

by clivemcl Sun 26 Oct - 11:14

Notch wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

If there's anything I never accept as a fan, its mediocrity. I am constantly demanding improvement of this team. But I only measure them against their own potential. Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.

Right I think it's time for me to call it a day on here. I have a very worthwhile and fruitful life. I don't need to be judged and ridiculed by keyboard bullies who can't accept people asking questions.

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct - 11:28

clivemcl wrote:
Notch wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

If there's anything I never accept as a fan, its mediocrity. I am constantly demanding improvement of this team. But I only measure them against their own potential. Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.

Right I think it's time for me to call it a day on here. I have a very worthwhile and fruitful life. I don't need to be judged and ridiculed by keyboard bullies who can't accept people asking questions.

The fact you don't even bother to read the rest of that post says it all. I'm not going to start pretending I suffer fools gladly, but it's certainly not bullying to stand up for players and coaches who aren't here to defend themselves against unfair and unjustified criticisms. When they deserve it I will lead the criticisms. When the team does not deserve it, I will defend them. That is the state of being a fan. As for those who were attracted by the teams success and are now prepared to turn on them like hyenas because we lost a game to a better team- easy come, easy go.

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 12:46

The loss yesterday is very disappointing for all of us, but there's no need to fall out over it.

It was always going to be tough against Toulon, and with us having lost key players through injury much more so. My hope was that we would play at the top of our game, and that Toulon wouldn't. It wasn't to be. Toulon lifted their game from that against Scarlets, and we failed to hit the intensity level shown against Glasgow. We were weak at the breakdown. There's no getting away from that.

We really needed Henderson, Touhy and Trimble against such a powerful team. That game has also shown just how much we need to bring in strong ball carriers into the back row. Hopefully Ross and Reidy can make the step up, because all our NIQ spots are filled....

Anyway, it's not all over yet. All we have to do is win the next 4 games Erm

... and hope it's enough.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 12:51

Munchkin wrote:The loss yesterday is very disappointing for all of us, but there's no need to fall out over it.

Good man. I do think such a thing needed to be said but I didn't feel I was an appropriate person to say it.

by Pete330v2 Sun 26 Oct - 13:01

[quote="clivemcl"]

Notch wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

If there's anything I never accept as a fan, its mediocrity. I am constantly demanding improvement of this team. But I only measure them against their own potential. Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.

If you think the only 'real' fans are the ones cramming the terraces and stands of Ravenhill think again Notch. There are plenty real fans who cannot get to Ravenhill no matter how much they'd love to. Try working,living and caring for a family more than an hour away from the big smoke and see how often you make it to games. Clive has a right to his opinion without being attacked because yours differs and you see yourself as a superior fan because you go to matches.
I'm may well leave here as well as Clive, when the moderators become the keyboard bullies it's becomes the UAFC.

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 13:18

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The loss yesterday is very disappointing for all of us, but there's no need to fall out over it.

Good man. I do think such a thing needed to be said but I didn't feel I was an appropriate person to say it.

It's as appropriate for you as it is for me Fly. The passion we have as fans can have us taking lumps out of each other, and saying things we wouldn't normally. Heat of the moment, and all that.

Clive and Pete, don't be leaving. Clive, Pete and Notch, more of Hug

, and less of boxing

by Sin é Sun 26 Oct - 13:37

Kingshu wrote:When Copeland was at Cardiff I said he was a player we could do with.

I rate Williams but I don't think he is up to this level, he is big gains and big losses and against average league teams his gains outweight his losses, against the very top teams (who are more clinical) his losses outweight his gains.

Wilson is around 32 and I would rather have had Copeland on the bench with a view to having taking the jersey.

We really need to get more depth in th ebackrow, and I can see the IRFU insist on one of our Centers move to Munster, I hope that we get someone like CJ Stander, Jordi Murphy, Rhys Ruddock in return.

I really doubt you will get any of those 3 in return for a centre (I don't think the IRFU has that kind of influence). I think Ulster did miss out on Copeland (who is willing to move around obviously). The other backrower from Munster that might be interested would be Sean Dougall (ex your academy) and was a great pal of Nevin Spence. He is really going to find it difficult to get ahead of POM, TOD & CJ. He is used at 7 when POM is out, but he is an absolute lunatic and with a bit more time and meat, is going to be a top player.

Munster have two very good young centres coming through now (Bohane & Rory Scannell) with Earls to come back (hopefully). Andrew Smith is only here for a year so there maybe a SH signing after the world cup.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 13:46

Just looking at the Castres Leinster game...and watching the Castres Captain being directed to the advertising board to do a halftime interview before being allowed into the tunnel.............

Respect the players and allow them to hold their tongues and energy for their team mates and the game until the game is over. No fan needs those few seconds of player media time when the halftime whistle goes. There are more than enough talking heads to keep them interested.

by Standulstermen Sun 26 Oct - 14:47

It's ridiculous fly.

Sin

Dougall would definitely be an addition but in reality we also need someone with serious bulk which he doesn't have.

by Kingshu Sun 26 Oct - 15:29

Sean Dougall is needed,
I know I don't like provinces doing this but maybe a raid on Connacht?
Jake Heenan would be great to have, or if we could have Willie Faloon back?

by asoreleftshoulder Sun 26 Oct - 15:41

Kingshu wrote:Sean Dougall is needed,
I know I don't like provinces doing this but maybe a raid on Connacht?
Jake Heenan would be great to have, or if we could have Willie Faloon back?

I'd say Connacht would gladly give you Heenan on a loan for the season.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 16:04

We need two Denis Hickies and three Nacewas right now. So whoever has them, we're willing to swap - those five for Healy?

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct - 18:49

Pete330v2 wrote:
Notch wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

If there's anything I never accept as a fan, its mediocrity. I am constantly demanding improvement of this team. But I only measure them against their own potential. Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.

If you think the only 'real' fans are the ones cramming the terraces and stands of Ravenhill think again Notch. There are plenty real fans who cannot get to Ravenhill no matter how much they'd love to. Try working,living and caring for a family more than an hour away from the big smoke and see how often you make it to games. Clive has a right to his opinion without being attacked because yours differs and you see yourself as a superior fan because you go to matches.
I'm may well leave here as well as Clive, when the moderators become the keyboard bullies it's becomes the UAFC.

Firstly, those comments are a slander on me as they have nothing to do with my status as a moderator and are a misrepresentation of my actual views. You are twisting my words and misrepresenting what I think. Because what you have written above is not what I think. I am not a superior fan because I go to games. I am not a fan, I'm a supporter. And I am a supporter because I support the team. I criticise them yes, when they deserve it I will lead the criticisms. But when they are unfairly or harshly criticised I will defend them when they deserve to be defended and that is whats happening here.

Secondly, you are completely ignoring the arguments I've made and the substance of what I have said. I'm not attacking clive because he's only interested in going to the big matches. I'm attacking clive because his criticisms of the team are unfair, hyperbolic and frankly ludicrous and not based on any kind of reality or anything other than being a recent fan who's heart isn't in it now things have gotten hard for the team- and things are not even that hard. If you make ludicrous statements, you can't get sensitive about it when someone comes along and sets you right. And sitting watching the team from your armchair doesn't give you the right to make unfair criticisms any more than a spot on the terraces does. I'm talking about those fans who think they have the right to get torn into the team and players when they don't deserve it. If you get behind the team when they are in trouble you are a fan. If you want to start talking about coaches not performing three months into their tenure when they are actually doing well given the team they have, you might be fan too- but you are an uninformed and dare I say a deeply ignorant one with little patience or sense of realism.

The team played close to their potential and were beaten. You can't fault them for it. Room for improvement, most definitely, but they didn't play as badly as they have done in the league so far. Last week they didn't get anywhere near their own potential and deserved criticism, if it was fair and informed. This week they deserve our backing as fans. And I don't give a shoite if you live in Sydenham or Signapore either you stand behind your team at times like this or you don't let the door hit your arse on the way out with the rest of the bandwagon brigade. We'll keep going as we always have and see you for the Pro12 playoffs.

by clivemcl Sun 26 Oct - 19:52

I was caught in two minds here whether to respond or not. But for the life of me I just can't bare to have someone slander me without response.

I posted here since it's creation and the BBC 606 forums before that as far back as 09/10 season when Ulster were far from high flyers. On top of that, leaving school, i devoted ten years to the club rugby system playing for Coleraine (albeit at low level). My attendance at Ravenhill is not good. Here are the reasons. I live an hour away. I have a two year old son. I have a wife who cares not for rugby and very few friends who give a hoot. Aside from that I'm a wedding videographer and as you can imagine, the vast majority of work is on Friday/Saturdays.

Of course, I know you are right - if I was a TRUE 'supporter' as you say, I would clearly get divorced, move to Belfast and move to a 9-5 job. I guess I just don't care that much about Ulster eh?

As for the players you claim did everything they could yesterday - I simply just disagree. If you think that is their ability peak you are just wrong.

Here's a quote from the other forum of a neutral observer.

KiaRose wrote:I haven't read all the comments but ... if I were an Ulster fan I would be seriously worried at the team's inability to protect the ball. I am not talking about the few superb turnovers but the way time after time Ulster almost handed the ball to Toulon at the breakdown. I was genuinely surprised.

And I agree, our performance at the breakdown was lackluster, and the forwards did not give their all in that aspect of the game. Is it OK to disagree, or does that warrant yet more name calling?

Now, lets talk about your 'arguments'. You are correct, I didn't read them. The reason why being that you are not a pleasant person to engage in a debate with. It's very hard to take somebodies points on board when their opening sentences involve aggressive language.

What's more, if you check, in any instance when I spoke about the game in a negative way it was a case of raising the question rather than preaching negativity as you have purported. eg. 'Are we still convinced by Doak?' and questioning if our squad is really THAT much weaker.

I even tried to make it clear that I was not being overreactive eg
'I'm not setting up a 'Doak Out' group like, I'm just saying let's not make him immune to criticism just because he's one of our own. '

But that didn't stop you launching your assault.

For those who missed all this and are wondering what's going on - here is a short glossary of terms Notch used about me in th past couple of pages...

'hyperbolic and frankly ludicrous'
'watching the team from your armchair'
'fools'
'recent fan who's heart isn't in it'
'pathetic'
' picard

'
'incredibly stupid'
'comfortable spot on your sofa at home'

Oh and please feel fre to go off on one about how your values won't allow you to let somebody say things you belive to be idiotic, but I'm pretty sure as a moderator your job is to create an environment for banter, debate and interaction, not lambasting people you believe to be wrong with vitriolic language until they don't enjoy posting on this forum any longer.

If anyone wants to see what I said to warrant the comments I've quoted above - fell free to read back a few pages but I dare say you will wonder why Notch got so hot and bothered. As do I.

I've had a good time on here mostly, and it's been a good way to chat as somebody with few rugby following friends. But this just isn't healthy for me any longer. All the best.

And one last time - SUFTUM!

by quinsforever Sun 26 Oct - 19:59

Notch, anyone who intimates you are happy with mediocrity without knowing anything about you, deserves a slap. And if they can't take it back, and act the victim, then they should learn to harden the fap up.

Calling you a moderator bully made me want to send him my teddy bear. Poor little dove. You are a rugby fan, and ulster supporter before and after being a moderator on here.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And if they do they should not expect it to be pain free.

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 20:06

quinsforever wrote:Notch, anyone who intimates you are happy with mediocrity without knowing anything about you, deserves a slap. And if they can't take it back, and act the victim, then they should learn to harden the fap up.

Calling you a moderator bully made me want to send him my teddy bear. Poor little dove. You are a rugby fan, and ulster supporter before and after being a moderator on here.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And if they do they should not expect it to be pain free.

Who asked you to stick your beak in?

SCRAM! mad

sure there's other threads that you can stir in....

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 20:12

This place is just going needlessly mad and I really can't put a finger on it.

People have left in droves - the rest are deciding the right time they'll leave themselves - I was talking to a Welsh mod a week or so back and he was telling me he was wrapping up his time here as certain fans were frustrating the life out of him................... I think it was actually us Irish he was refering to if I'm brutally honest about it.

Now a poster decides that his love of rugby, and a chat, and a feeling of being part of something that his realtime friends aren't interested in is in the gutter because it is too frustrating to be here.

An on and on it goes. And yet................ there is hardly anyone here anymore. There is tons of room 'in the building' as it were, lots of space to avoid trouble but it seems the grind is getting to all of us.

Maybe it is simply that feeling that the rugby section here - for whatever reasons - is dying. Perhaps that's the real frustration, and that old posters who didn't take themselves too seriously are drying up and therefore the safety valve isn't there anymore in their nonsense and light-heartedness.

Clive shouldn't feel being here is bad for him. We're supposed to be Intelligent rugby supporters...you know, more high brow than them football underlings Wink

(I'm only joking football boys!)

I can understand the emotions of the defeat. It kinda sickens me and I'm not even from Ulster. It does leave a hollow feeling in the stomach and you wonder.... you wonder how it can come back good again before it has a chance to slide even more. That's what I think people worry about - how deep will the slip be?

But just temper the stuff please and acknowledge that anyone insane enough to hang around these parts for any number of years (and the BBC one earlier) is probably a die-hard rugby follower with heavy duty opinions that they want to express on here without it getting into a personal slinging match.

by Pete330v2 Sun 26 Oct - 20:25

Fly I for one am tired of seeing people's view lambasted with exactly what Clive just described. Notch may play the victim all he wants but even from the times of the BBC606 I've seen him act the same towards folks on the forums i.e.

'hyperbolic and frankly ludicrous'
'watching the team from your armchair'
'fools'
'recent fan who's heart isn't in it'
'pathetic'
' picard '
'incredibly stupid'
'comfortable spot on your sofa at home'

I don't think he would speak to people in the same way on the street somehow and that was just at Clive. I, like Clive have been a supporter of Ulster Rugby for a long, long time and involved in rugby all my life. I too have much more important priorities these days that keep me from making the hour long trek to Belfast on a weekly basis. Perhaps that's why I find it offensive when he gets put down with the old "Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.". It gets my back up. A true fan isn't measured by how often his feet are on the terraces but by what's in his heart concerning the team.
Now Clive has left and I can't blame him, why post an opinion when it gets a reaction like that from Notch.

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 20:28

Good post, Fly.

We can all take ourselves too seriously. Especially after a loss I guess.

There's probably still a bit of ill feeling after the fallout of the Euro competition, and of course the WRU v RRW thing, which has probably contributed to people leaving. Like everything else, it will pass over time though.

Well...until the next round...

by quinsforever Sun 26 Oct - 20:40

Hey, if people want to have a private fight, do it in private. Over PM.

If it's in a thread then people are clearly looking for audience participation.

And I would back up Notch any day. In spite of us not seeing eye to eye on many things. It's a thankless task being a moderator. And for that to be used as a negative point in an argument is just wrong.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 20:47

?

..I think the guys are refering to his chosen words in reply to Clive (in public), quins...not the 'negative' of him being a Moderator.

The words are stong in an emotional setting and people have paper-thin sensitivity when emotional.

So rather than build a boxing ring to decide who we back up, it's maybe better to suggest two robust rugby men disagreed and it got personal under the strain of emotion?

by quinsforever Sun 26 Oct - 20:51

They flounced off. Or threatened to do so. That's drama queen territory, not rugby men (or women).

Notch's words were very very mild.

Precious indeed to ham up the offence.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 20:57

They all flounced off and it's your opinion that the words were mild.
Your side won today.
You're happy enough.
The world smiles.
A loss and a sense of gloom is a different place though, as well we all know.

But back to Ulster...the team and the Competition Wink

Let them get on with things in Private will we?

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 26 Oct - 21:05

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Sean Dougall is needed,
I know I don't like provinces doing this but maybe a raid on Connacht?
Jake Heenan would be great to have, or if we could have Willie Faloon back?

I'd say Connacht would gladly give you Heenan on a loan for the season.

Why would Connacht "gladly" give Heenan on loan? Connacht desperately need him back fit as Faloon has not been at his best since returning from injury.

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 21:09

Sure we will take Faloon then, and everyone's happy Very Happy

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 26 Oct - 21:12

Munchkin wrote:Sure we will take Faloon then, and everyone's happy

Hopefully then they will actually turn up against Ulster instead of just beating us every year!

by Guest Sun 26 Oct - 21:24

heh, they do raise their game against you. A bit like you against us in semi's and finals Sad

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct - 21:29

clivemcl wrote:Of course, I know you are right - if I was a TRUE 'supporter' as you say, I would clearly get divorced, move to Belfast and move to a 9-5 job. I guess I just don't care that much about Ulster eh?

Do you know what a straw man is? It's a misrepresentation of an opponents argument. It's obvious when you respond to an argument that no-one is making, which is what you and Pete are doing with this 'you can't be a true fan if you don't go to every game' shoite. Bollox. Nobody ever said that. Nobody is saying that. So why should I bother debunking it if it's not something I think and its not something I said? I'm not going to dignify such nonsense by making my position any clearer than I have done. If you- and Pete for that matter- want to make a story in your head where I said that go ahead. But it's not what was said.

What a waste of time it is to get offended by something no-one said! No, what I said is that the difference between those who are there rain or shine, win or lose, in good times and in bad times is when times get tough you either get behind the team or you moan and point fingers. Thats the mark of what kind of fan you are, how you react to adversity. Sometimes your team will give it everything and get beaten because they are up against top opponents. You either turn on them or get behind them. You can turn on them if you want but I'll point it out if I think you're being unfair or uninformed, and I think you were being such in spades.

As for the rest... you think it's okay to attack players and coaches in harsh terms after a decent performance but a bad result, but you can't take the slightest criticism yourself. You crossed the line, in my view, and I responded in much milder terms than the language you used to criticise Doak and the players. So maybe if this is how you react to that, think about the things you say yourself.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 21:31

That frustrates me too about Connacht. "Oh we'll save ourselves for them toffs of Dublin 4. Our whole year will be designed around meeting them bollixes and shafting them!"

It's neither fair nor meritocratic for them to act this way. They must be forced by the rules to try against the other Provinces too. They're resting themselves in cottonwool until they meet Leinster, the basterdes!

by The Great Aukster Sun 26 Oct - 21:38

SF - the place isn't going needlessly mad - it already is and has been since Gatland ridiculously dropped BOD!

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct - 21:43

The Great Aukster wrote:SF - the place isn't going needlessly mad - it already is and has been since Gatland ridiculously dropped BOD!

............ but probably seriously very true. That was the moment in time that this place really lit up like I'd never have imagined. Lit me too big time I have to admit as I'm a damn emotional guy mad

And it's kinda stayed factional and frictional ever since with what Munchkin said about the Welsh Regional thing and the Big ERC v PRL show.

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct - 21:52

Pete330v2 wrote:Notch may play the victim all he wants

What victim card am I playing? Nonsense.

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't think he would speak to people in the same way on the street somehow

I blydi would. If I believe someone is bullschitting I get quite animated and am not at all shy about calling them out on it.

Pete330v2 wrote: I too have much more important priorities these days that keep me from making the hour long trek to Belfast on a weekly basis. Perhaps that's why I find it offensive when he gets put down with the old "Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose.". It gets my back up. A true fan isn't measured by how often his feet are on the terraces but by what's in his heart concerning the team.

Maybe it's hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on the sofa at home- you being Clive- as he is notorious for complaining about not being able to get tickets for the big games and writing angry screeds on here and on Ulster Rugbys Facebook page when he can't get tickets to the one or two big games a season he wants to go to. He was even quoted in the Belfast Telegraph moaning about how Ulster Rugby had diddled him after he couldn't get tickets for Ulster vs Saracens because 'he watches every game on TV'. Thats the reference. Nothing to do with saying fans who don't go to games aren't real fans. It's the same sense of misplaced entitlement that leads people to lash out at the team when they lose. They don't owe us anything! If anything, we owe them.

Biggest Ulster fan I know is from Donegal and only goes to one or two games a season due to inability to travel regularly to games. But he puts his heart and soul into supporting Ulster. I agree with you 100% when you say "A true fan isn't measured by how often his feet are on the terraces but by what's in his heart concerning the team." Thats why I get so angry after seeing the players give their heart and soul for the jersey and fall short, and then someone is queuing up to stick the boot into them and the coaching staff. I am sticking up for my team because they don't deserve that. When they deserve criticism, like last week, I'll give it out with a view to highlighting areas that we need to improve in and pointing out what could be better- measuring the team against their own potential. When they don't deserve criticism, I'll defend them. Thats what makes me a fan, not just going to games.

I use strong and robust language to convey my passion for Ulster Rugby, but do not mistake my intent; I am not going after anyone. I am defending my side from anyone who wants to turn on them when its unfair and hyperbolic criticism as opposed to constructive criticism.

by TJ Sun 26 Oct - 22:02

Notch - you do come over as very angry and antogaonistic at time. take a chill pill maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan! Wink

by BlueMuff Sun 26 Oct - 23:16

TJ wrote:Notch - you do come over as very angry and antogaonistic at time. take a chill pill maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

+1 and what's worse it's qfe seems to be the only one who agrees which says it all. I've read all this thread and Clive you should disengage from the thread as it's pointless and going nowhere but do stay around as you make good valid points.

by neilthom7 Sun 26 Oct - 23:31

Guys come on can't we all be friends here
Personally I think it's SecretFly coming up here trying to get us in fighting so Leinster can win the league again, I am on to you and your Dublin loving ways lol Hug

As far as Ulster are concerned we have had a mixed bag so far this season which given the injuries we have lets not forget that 4 of our very best players are unavailable combined with the players leaving in the summer is what I expected.
We have some positives there with some young guys showing they have the potential to be right up there and some very good wins (see Glasgow) we are not perfect and wont be for a few years this wont be instant but we will get there.
As for Toulon these guys are a cut above everyone else right now I mean how many teams can have Bakkies Botha, Juan SMith and James O'Connor on the BENCH there is no shame in losing to them especially when really we lost because of a moment of madness from Nick throwing the intercept and great try at the end of the first half.

by **George Carlin** Mon 27 Oct - 5:12

You can't tell, but I'm trying to break the underlying tension on this thread by typing this post completely naked.

by The Great Aukster Mon 27 Oct - 8:26

George Carlin wrote:You can't tell, but I'm trying to break the underlying tension on this thread by typing this post completely naked.

Eh? ... everyone can tell from the sweaty stickiness of the key strokes...

(and you left your webcam on)

by SecretFly Mon 27 Oct - 9:36

All we need is a smug F**kin' Scot prowling around in the nip trying to divide and conquer.

*cough*...maybe I shouldn't have worded that last bit that way Whistle

My innuendo mind operates completely independently of my will.

by The Great Aukster Mon 27 Oct - 10:06

SF - You obviously have made acquaintance of those north of Hadrian's wall, so that was no Freudian slip. There is no coincidence that the place names such as Wick, Lord Berkeleys Knob, man sausage of Arran and Butt of Lewis are in that locality. Remember the Scots prefer to use more than 10 fingers when faced with a keyboard in front of them as it adds a certain scottishness and a hint of multi-tasking.

Edit - how can a place name such as Co*k of Arran be edited automatically to make it worse!!!

by SecretFly Mon 27 Oct - 10:24

Yeah, you'd think that in every prudish society the word C*ok would be replaced with Noisy Chicken.... or Rooster.... or Foghorn Leghorn... or Leaning Tower of Pisa.... or Nelson's Column... or Tree Stump....

...anything but the pointed, memberically descriptive, queasily repulsive, gastronomically repellant Man Sausage!

by Pete330v2 Mon 27 Oct - 10:41

George Carlin wrote:You can't tell, but I'm trying to break the underlying tension on this thread by typing this post completely naked.

At 5 in the am too you insomniac naturist.

by **Notch** Mon 27 Oct - 10:43

Looked on Facebook and the uafc forum. Full of 'Ulster fans' putting the boot in to the team. Absolutely disgusted by the reaction to this match- on here, everywhere. The criticism is so over the top and unwarranted. Sounds like whining, spoilt children. X player is rubbish, Y coach should be sacked. It's unbelievable.

Even before kick off yesterday there were people in the bars five minutes before the game started instead of in their seats trying to create an atmosphere. No doubt the same crowd crying blue murder now. Ask not what your team can do for you...

by Pete330v2 Mon 27 Oct - 10:58

Notch you know sometimes people do grab the wrong end of the stick with you and you can come across as antogaonistic and condescending at times which is what I did and I do apologise if I did get the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps an overt use of emoticons is required, I don't know.

As for those who think Ulster are rubbish etc, what did you expect when there was a sudden influx of fans who have followed Ulster since the final at twickers and can't seem to remember anything about the team before that. They still pay for tickets and beer which is going into Ulster Rugby's pockets.

Even lifelong Ulster supporters get angry and frustrated at times and vent that on here and other forums. They usually are brought back down to earth again on here though whilst on the uafc it seems to be supported by all but a few. They therefore spend most of their time void of optimism and these days filled with loathing for Jared Payne.

by SecretFly Mon 27 Oct - 11:04

Notch.. just a point - where were we when people were putting the boot in Kidney's Ireland? Or when people were putting the boot into Eddie O'Sullivan's end of term Ireland? Or when people were putting the boot into Gatland's Lions?

Many even abroad were saying we were over-reacting when we were week in and week out saying in strong language what was wrong with Ireland - they patronised us by saying Kidney was the best thing that ever happened Ireland and that we were back stabbing him, and that he won us a Slam and therefore should be criticism-proof for the rest of his term, one that slowly and inevitably went downhill from there.

Criticism happens - and you're proof that anger happens after a series of bad results. But the people who are angry and disappointed and 'over-reacting' have as much right as you to their anger. You're angry at them, they're angry at what they probably judge as a series of admin blunders (rapid-fire sackings and resignations) that have led to Ulster's coaching and personel problems in Europe now.

They're disappointed. They have the right to be disappointed in different ways to your diappointment.

Think Sin.................. He was furious about the criticism poured out at Kidney (it was natural, Kidney is a Munster man and Sin was standing up for his own) But it wasn't logical to say the complainers and moaners didn't have a point and weren't entitled to air them.

by **George Carlin** Mon 27 Oct - 11:06

The Great Aukster wrote:
George Carlin wrote:You can't tell, but I'm trying to break the underlying tension on this thread by typing this post completely naked.

Eh? ... everyone can tell from the sweaty stickiness of the key strokes...

(and you left your webcam on)

Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2 - Page 11 Cant_b12

by ME-109 Mon 27 Oct - 11:13

Sin furious??? Doubt it. More pointing out the flaws in the arguments no? And the blatant hypocrisy.

Anyway for what it's worth from watching the highlights it looked to me as if Ulster were relatively unlucky in terms of the bounce of the ball. Not saying Toulon weren't the better side on the day but Ulster were just a couple of mistakes away from it being a more close run contest than is being suggested.

by SecretFly Mon 27 Oct - 11:29

ME-109 wrote:Sin furious??? Doubt it. More pointing out the flaws in the arguments no? And the blatant hypocrisy.

Sin was constructively irritated by a series of unfortunate truths that coincided with the tenure of Head Coach Declan Kidney, who mentored but didn't coach, and the players should have had brains enough to be able to coach themselves if the coaches couldn't...but didn't.

Correct ME. I revise my memory. Sin was not furious - he was a robot, programmed to be a dispassionate observer and ultimate truth oracle.

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