606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[LordDowlais]

Lord...I'll try this one more time and then I'll leave you in peace until..................... well, 15.40

But here goes.

Both sides are trying to seduce?  Yes?  I mean...........em.................  I can't use YES or else I'll be accused of trying to put YES on your lips................... so.........em, you agree?

Both sides are trying to seduce with.....arguments.  You agree?

One side uses arguments like "We is gonna get every blasted thing we want!  And we won't want for anything; and we have the oil that'll go for another thousand years at least; and the Pound is ours and safe and there'll be honey in the pots, oil in the barrels, wheat in the barns, chickens in the oven, Tories down there and all will be right with the world."  
That's their arguments.  None of it has to be true - it's a line, a seduction line, it's the 'buying you a drink' chatup routine.  It's courting.  It's a date.

Now.... the other side thinks Scotland is a fine looking bird but they want her for their own so they say "that other suitor is much too slick and syrupy.  Maybe this girl likes a more straight-talking guy who is a bit rough and mean.  Some ladies like that kinda manly growl."
So they say "You're not going to get anything.  The oil ain't worth another day's talk and will last less than another day anyway; the pound is ours to keep from you; there's not enough of you to defend yourselves, even from us if we wanted to take yis back, and look................. we love you lots, will make you suffer lots if you reject us...and do'ya wanta go to the cinema with us?"
They're all just seduction gigs from both sides.  Neither of them have to be true.  All they want is that kiss and cuddle - and will say anything to get it.

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Forget defending ourselves from the rUK. How do we defend our fishing areas from the rest of Europe?

Fishing quotas and areas are tightly controlled by Brussels. Our membership with the EU is highly questionable at best. So what is to stop the French, Spanish, Dutch or any other countries fishing vessels from violating our territorial waters?

We have the largest coastline in the UK and our FM expects us to patrol these waters with 2 Frigates and contribute meaningfully to the NATO alliance?

Alarm bells are ringing......

[Sin é]

What the feck does any of that firstly mean, and secondly answer ? None of what you have said plugs any of the massive holes in the YES argument.

Actually, you sound just like the YES campaigners not really answering the questions being asked, but answering something.

Michael Collins would be far more popular with Irish people than De Valera - but it took a devious so-and-so like De Valera to lead our country out of the union.

iScotland needs a de Valera type character to outwit Westminister (though Camera is no Lloyd George). Which explains why Salmond is doing the following:

Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

[LordDowlais]

What the feck does any of that firstly mean, and secondly answer ? None of what you have said plugs any of the massive holes in the YES argument.

Actually, you sound just like the YES campaigners not really answering the questions being asked, but answering something.

Michael Collins would be far more popular with Irish people than De Valera - but it took a devious so-and-so like De Valera to lead our country out of the union.

iScotland needs a de Valera type character to outwit Westminister (though Camera is no Lloyd George). Which explains why Salmond is doing the following:

Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

So you agree then, there are holes in the YES campaign that the Scottish public deserve answers for BEFORE they vote ?

[Sin é]

Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."  

As he found out to his cost when he forever thought that Blair would stick to some unwritten Leadership agreement and his advisors kept moaning behind his back: "Don't believe him, Gov. Don't believ the lad with the Cheshire Cat smile."

Where did that lad, Salmond get born and bred incidently?  His answer was 'scaremongering some of the time is cheap-shotism most of the time'.

Our FM was born in Linlithgow.

And for the record I don't accept rational voices from business such as the Governer of the Bank of England or even the BBC to be scaremongerers.

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

Actually it surprised me earlier in this thread (with speculation about Salmond coming from affluent class) that no one here actually read up on Salmond's background. People like Quins was blaming Salmond for the RBS banking problems, not realising that he worked as an economist there about 30 years ago.

[Sin é]

What the feck does any of that firstly mean, and secondly answer ? None of what you have said plugs any of the massive holes in the YES argument.

Actually, you sound just like the YES campaigners not really answering the questions being asked, but answering something.

Michael Collins would be far more popular with Irish people than De Valera - but it took a devious so-and-so like De Valera to lead our country out of the union.

iScotland needs a de Valera type character to outwit Westminister (though Camera is no Lloyd George). Which explains why Salmond is doing the following:

Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

So you agree then, there are holes in the YES campaign that the Scottish public deserve answers for BEFORE they vote ?

Nope. The only thing the Scots deserve is to be able to self-determine.

[SecretFly]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

[quinsforever]

Forget defending ourselves from the rUK. How do we defend our fishing areas from the rest of Europe?

Fishing quotas and areas are tightly controlled by Brussels. Our membership with the EU is highly questionable at best. So what is to stop the French, Spanish, Dutch or any other countries fishing vessels from violating our territorial waters?

We have the largest coastline in the UK and our FM expects us to patrol these waters with 2 Frigates and contribute meaningfully to the NATO alliance?

Alarm bells are ringing......

If Salmond's plan to refuse to take on any of the debt holds, then there will be no assets either. you'll need to build or buy the frigates first. and borrow the money to do so from someone, after just having walked away from a bunch of debt (technical default). hope your fisherman have some good self-defense skills...

[LordDowlais]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

What is it you are not seeing fly ? Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, no IF's or BUT's, just plain NO. Weather or not they are bluffing remains to be seen, but, the Scottish public deserve an answer from the YES campaign of what they intend on doing if Westminster stick to what they have said. They have not answered questions like that, or numerous other like it, and the public desreve answers.

[HammerofThunor]

Forget defending ourselves from the rUK. How do we defend our fishing areas from the rest of Europe?

Fishing quotas and areas are tightly controlled by Brussels. Our membership with the EU is highly questionable at best. So what is to stop the French, Spanish, Dutch or any other countries fishing vessels from violating our territorial waters?

We have the largest coastline in the UK and our FM expects us to patrol these waters with 2 Frigates and contribute meaningfully to the NATO alliance?

Alarm bells are ringing......

Surely that would class as an invasion and the UN would be called in?

But I imagine the UK would step in anyway. A lot of the fish processing goes in this area (including a lot of those caught by Scottish ships). There's a lot of work based on it (and it is expected to continue if Scotland go independent). The UK is not involved in French, Spanish, etc fishing vessels so they would lose out.

[HammerofThunor]

What is it you are not seeing fly ? Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, no IF's or BUT's, just plain NO. Weather or not they are bluffing remains to be seen, but, the Scottish public deserve an answer from the YES campaign of what they intend on doing if Westminster stick to what they have said. They have not answered questions like that, or numerous other like it, and the public desreve answers.

Have you never seen a political u-turn? They happen all the time. "This will NOT happen"....then it happens and they try and spin it as adapting to circumstances or whatever. IF the UK said, yes, we will consider a current union, there is probably no question that the YES would get it (unless all those people with issue over it are using it as an excuse to go with their gut). So they don't, they 'have' to say that to have any chance. Doesn't mean they won't change their mind. Doesn't mean they will.

[Sin é]

Forget defending ourselves from the rUK. How do we defend our fishing areas from the rest of Europe?

Fishing quotas and areas are tightly controlled by Brussels. Our membership with the EU is highly questionable at best. So what is to stop the French, Spanish, Dutch or any other countries fishing vessels from violating our territorial waters?

We have the largest coastline in the UK and our FM expects us to patrol these waters with 2 Frigates and contribute meaningfully to the NATO alliance?

Alarm bells are ringing......

If Salmond's plan to refuse to take on any of the debt holds, then there will be no assets either. you'll need to build or buy the frigates first. and borrow the money to do so from someone, after just having walked away from a bunch of debt (technical default). hope your fisherman have some good self-defense skills...

Quinns, you should read up about what happened when Ireland stopped paying its annuities to Britain.

[quinsforever]

In this instance I think no does mean no.

It will become an electoral issue for the rUK. Ukip will say no currency union and both major parties will have to include it in their manifestos in order not to lose voted

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

When last I looked Asbo it was Mr Salmond who encouraged RBS to take over ABN Amro

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/revealed-salmond-s-support-for-goodwin-over-disastrous-rbs-deal-1.1046662

Gordon Brown had no option but to take over RBS with UK taxpayer money and thus being at the helm when the ship started to sink.

I again ask was the Prime Minister supposed to stand by idle whilst one of the biggest banks in the UK went down the toilet?

Millions of homes and businesses were at stake. Would you or Beshocked advise was the best course of action?

Given that so little of RBS's business was in Scotland, I cannot imagine for two seconds that Salmond's musings had any sway whatsoever on Fred the Shred - but I suppose its convenient for you to believe so

[Sin é]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

What is it you are not seeing fly ? Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, no IF's or BUT's, just plain NO. Weather or not they are bluffing remains to be seen, but, the Scottish public deserve an answer from the YES campaign of what they intend on doing if Westminster stick to what they have said. They have not answered questions like that, or numerous other like it, and the public desreve answers.

The Scots already print their own currency. They just peg it to Sterling (or the US dollar if they want to).

[quinsforever]

Sin e. I am on mobile so can't look anything up

Wasn't that after the civil war when uk wanted time to develop NI? Around 1921?

Interesting if so but not all that relevant surely?

[fa0019]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

When the 3 leaders of the opposition, countless economists and most importantly the governor of the BoE says monetary union is out of the question I'm quite confident it will be out of the question.

I can just imagine negotiations between Alex and the PM on Friday 19th if the yes vote goes through....

Salmond - "whistle whilst we work dum dee dum dum dum dum dum" Hi, no hard feelings huh. Right lets get cracking... so currency... you were only saying you wouldn't enter monetary union right.... when do we tell the people of your U-turn?

Boris - no monetary union you country destroying peasant son of a coal miner.

Salmond - right um, what do I do now??? Let me get Joseph Stiglitz on the blower... hi Joe, that currency union you said they would go for... not going to plan thus far.

Stiglitz - um you paid me to build a case... I never said it was concrete or even a good idea. Thanks for the cash though, love to the wife.

[fa0019]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

What is it you are not seeing fly ? Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, no IF's or BUT's, just plain NO. Weather or not they are bluffing remains to be seen, but, the Scottish public deserve an answer from the YES campaign of what they intend on doing if Westminster stick to what they have said. They have not answered questions like that, or numerous other like it, and the public desreve answers.

The Scots already print their own currency. They just peg it to Sterling (or the US dollar if they want to).

Well if that's the case so does NI.

Wales - you must be feeling like the odd one out right. Didn't get the invite????

[Sin é]

Sin e. I am on mobile so can't look anything up

Wasn't that after the civil war when uk wanted time to develop NI? Around 1921?

Interesting if so but not all that relevant surely?

It was 1932.

Eire refused to pay annuities - loans taken out by tenant farmers in the 1800s to buy their lands. Eire believed that these annuites were abolished with the Free State treaty in 1921.

England put a tax on Irish exports (mainly agricultural) into England (20%).
Ireland decided to 'Burn everything English except their coal'.

It wasn't resolved until 1938 when Ireland got its ports back just in time to remain neutral during the 2nd world war.

[PenfroPete]

WALES prints/coins the money for over 50 countries

[fa0019]

WALES prints/coins the money for over 50 countries

Maybe its about time we gave rights to a welsh bank (???) to start issuing. Not sure who would go on your banknotes mind... Shirley Bassey, JPR, Tom Jones and Charlotte Church right for the £5, £10, £20 and £50

[PenfroPete]

£50 - Owain Glyndwr
£20 - Aneurin Bevan
£10 - David Lloyd George
£5 - Richard Burton

[SecretFly]

Halfpenny on the ........halfpenny? Or is that much too obvious?

[LordDowlais]

What is it you are not seeing fly ? Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, no IF's or BUT's, just plain NO. Weather or not they are bluffing remains to be seen, but, the Scottish public deserve an answer from the YES campaign of what they intend on doing if Westminster stick to what they have said. They have not answered questions like that, or numerous other like it, and the public desreve answers.

Have you never seen a political u-turn? They happen all the time. "This will NOT happen"....then it happens and they try and spin it as adapting to circumstances or whatever.  IF the UK said, yes, we will consider a current union, there is probably no question that the YES would get it (unless all those people with issue over it are using it as an excuse to go with their gut).  So they don't, they 'have' to say that to have any chance.  Doesn't mean they won't change their mind. Doesn't mean they will.

You cannot build a country on hoping that another will change their mind, they need a plan if it all goes jubblies up, and the YES campaign do not have one, well at least they have half their country in a state on national patriotism,almost fever pitch, perhaps they could build a country on that.

[Sin é]

WALES prints/coins the money for over 50 countries

Maybe its about time we gave rights to a welsh bank (???) to start issuing. Not sure who would go on your banknotes mind... Shirley Bassey, JPR, Tom Jones and Charlotte Church right for the £5, £10, £20 and £50

You see, this is exactly why Scotland wants to get out of the UK - you don't poke fun at your own.

[LordDowlais]

£50 - Owain Glyndwr
£20 - Aneurin Bevan
£10 - David Lloyd George
£5 - Richard Burton

£1 coin, my head, for all the campaigning I have been doing on here. Oh, and my derriere on the other side, just for the people who do not agree with me.

[Sin é]

£50 - Owain Glyndwr
£20 - Aneurin Bevan
£10 - David Lloyd George
£5 - Richard Burton

You could stick the Prince of Wales on some coin I suppose.

[LordDowlais]

£50 - Owain Glyndwr
£20 - Aneurin Bevan
£10 - David Lloyd George
£5 - Richard Burton

You could stick the Prince of Wales on some coin I suppose.

Nah, his ears would not fit on.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

What I really don't get on this forum is the so called 'expert' financial, defence and legal opinions that seem to be gathered from the rabidly loyalist, fanatically anti-Scottish, pro-establishment at any cost, right wing London media.    Someone above even quoted a piece from the Express ffs.    What next Nigel Farage via the Daily Fail?     These same people do not appear to have a remit in the referendum.   I disagree with Radge but at least he has a vested interest - although quoting Gordon 'Light Touch' Brown when discussing finance was bizarre to say the least.

[fa0019]

WALES prints/coins the money for over 50 countries

Maybe its about time we gave rights to a welsh bank (???) to start issuing. Not sure who would go on your banknotes mind... Shirley Bassey, JPR, Tom Jones and Charlotte Church right for the £5, £10, £20 and £50

You see, this is exactly why Scotland wants to get out of the UK - you don't poke fun at your own.

You need to get out more Sin e

Firstly I acknowledged that its unfair that Wales weren't able to print their own money contrary to the other 3 members. Then I had a little joke. Its called friendly banter. This is a rugby forum after all. Its not a woman's lib forum.

[SecretFly]

I'm all for liberating women!!! Where are they being held? Are they wearing the proverbial bikinis and will they be proverbially overly grateful to me for releasing them???

Where's the B movie! I'm up for the challenge of liberating them.

[fa0019]

What I really don't get on this forum is the so called 'expert' financial, defence and legal opinions that seem to be gathered from the rabidly loyalist, fanatically anti-Scottish, pro-establishment at any cost, right wing London media.    Someone above even quoted a piece from the Express ffs.    What next Nigel Farage via the Daily Fail?     These same people do not appear to have a remit in the referendum.   I disagree with Radge but at least he has a vested interest - although quoting Gordon 'Light Touch' Brown when discussing finance was bizarre to say the least.

Outside of the national right wing obvious no voters.

For independence

Sunday Herald.

Against independence

FT
Economist
Scotsman
Guardian
Herald

They're all wrong right.

you could through in all the academics, economists, scientists etc who back no. but that would be boring as the list would be too many.

When I see the yes campaign bring out a reputed academic they didn't pay off (stiglitz) then I'd be impressed. The real reason is that when you take out emotion and you weigh up the pros and cons from a political and financial point of view, its a poor case at best and at worst, its sheer lies spat out by the Yes campaign.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

[fa0019]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

[SecretFly]

Scots won't be voting on the 'political' or 'financial' view -even if they vote NO and think of the finances as they do so.  They are not having the referendum for the politics and financial issues, they are having it because some in Scotland think they are spiritually just ready to lead their own trail as Scottish people in an Internationally recognised Independent Scotland.

I think it's not a campaign based on cold economics at all - from either side - though many on each side use the cold functional stuff to goad for YES or NO.

I think most Scots will vote with their souls - the actual airy fairy stuff that everyone seems to be afraid to mention lest they get accused of being tree-hugging dreamers.  So, everyone tries instead to be all knowing and pretend they're voting either for or against for specific mortgage and jobs and GDP percentages issues.

I don't think they are.  I think it's a spiritual campaign and it has certainly become a very emotional one based on simple spirit - and the decision will be an emotional one - whichever side end with victory.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Doubt it - Brown hated in the West - Labour or otherwise - and that's where 50% of the electorate are.

[quinsforever]

Didn't stop Salmond becoming FM being hated by half the population.

[whocares]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

why is that? SNP would stand no chance?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

....or Cameron and Blair when despised by 75%

[SecretFly]

Who is loved amongst us?

Thatcher?  We all know the memory treatment that old women was given after her death.
Blair?  Condemned by the 'You lied to Us' fanatics who seem to think politicians are designed to tell the truth.
Kinnock?  Laughed at.
Major?  Pitied for his pleasant greyness.

Politicians were put on this earth for two reasons.  One: to be hated.  Two: to lie.

[quinsforever]

Good point!

Thing is, most politicians are mostly disliked these days. Especially the party leaders. Even labour voters don't like miliband

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Gordon Brown is an idiot amongst idiots then. In Glasgow today stating 'it is time to nail the SNP lies' Feckin unbelievable from a liar amongst the worst of liars - the UK Labour party. A complete toss-pot !

[jimbopip]

At the risk of sounding non-intellectual, I have had a growing sense of despair overtake me when reading this thread over the past few weeks.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE ECONOMICS.
There was a political slogan aimed at Regan in the US in the 80's, "It's about the economy, stupid." Which was very apt. But in Thursday's vote it is exactly the opposite. It's about sovereignty, about the people of Scotland deciding their own future.
How can you live with yourself when you know, "We could have been a real grown up, self determining country: but we were to scared/greedy/venial/lacking in self belief to actually do it."
Salmond and Sturgeon may be economically incompetent, fine let the people of Scotland vote them out and choose an alternative, that's what democracy means.
You either believe in the concept of Scotland as a nation/ country in it's own right or you don't. The rest is window dressing.
I look forward to welcoming a free and independent Scotland into the world on Friday morning. I just can't understand how anyone can put a price on denying their countrymen and women the chance to determine their own future.

[fa0019]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

why is that? SNP would stand no chance?

The reason is this.

The SNP are an Independence Party. They are not a party which delivers. Their sole goal has been independence, good or bad. Whether the people are richer or poorer.

Scots see through him, they may vote yes but they aren't all snp voters.

The Labour Party however is the party of the nation. They hold what 41 out of 59 seats and it is a big diff once the top dogs of scottish politics return to the top table in Scotland. The best labour politicians go to Westminster currently, the best snp politicians go to holyrood.

Salmond cannot deliver on his promises. He can't offer high public services akin to Nordic countries with USA style taxation rates. Don't insult our intelligence. People aren't complete idiots.

If he wins then I doubt he will even be leader come official independence.

People aren't necessary loyal.... Churchill was voted out within months of WWII ending, even though they held him as the saviour of the nation.

Once negotiations start and people realise currency is screwed, EU membership is years down the line and tough choices will have to be made you'll see old hands like brown and alexander return to Scotland to take over. If brown doesn't take over than alexander should... He was Blair's choice for next leader of the uk Labour Party, well respected and I think he can help Scotland make the choices it needs to make however hard they may be.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

A very strange analogy, but that still does not answer anything, if they YES party stick with your first paragraph, and the NO party stick with your second paragraph, where does that leave Scotland if the YES vote wins ? You have infact answered something, but you still have not answered the question. A lot like the YES campaigners.

I have answered the questrion...numerous times.  It's a gamble (another analogy) - place your chips over the number you're promising you'll get.  But the wheel hasn't turned yet.  'IF' is as far as you can go.  'IF' is meaningless because you're looking for a guaranteed answer when there can be no answer guaranteed.

IF Salmond stood up and said: "IF England don't play ball with us on the Pound, then we're quite seriously f**ked."  He'd be still 'IF'ing.  Now, it might be the 'IF' you want to hear to make the YES campaign sound less assured of itself.  But IF Scotland votes YES, then there is absolute no guarantee that England will hard-ball.  They hard-ball talk now simply to try to seduce Scotland away from YES.

So just like you accuse Salmond of not talking the TRUTH - you could also, or certainly the YES people could also accuse Westminster of not telling the truth.  They could challenge Cameron to tell the truth, they could claim that the truth is Cameron will do a DEAL on many things if Scotland vote YES.

You'll say that's not so because Cameron said it wasn't so.  The YES camp could say that's why the NO camp can't be trusted, they won't tell the truth about what's genuinely going to happen IF Scotland vote YES.

It's all IF.  Nothing 'true' happens until the vote.

When the 3 leaders of the opposition, countless economists and most importantly the governor of the BoE says monetary union is out of the question I'm quite confident it will be out of the question.

I can just imagine negotiations between Alex and the PM on Friday 19th if the yes vote goes through....

Salmond - "whistle whilst we work dum dee dum dum dum dum dum" Hi, no hard feelings huh. Right lets get cracking... so currency... you were only saying you wouldn't enter monetary union right.... when do we tell the people of your U-turn?

Boris - no monetary union you country destroying peasant son of a coal miner.

Salmond - right um, what do I do now??? Let me get Joseph Stiglitz on the blower... hi Joe, that currency union you said they would go for... not going to plan thus far.

Stiglitz - um you paid me to build a case... I never said it was concrete or even a good idea. Thanks for the cash though, love to the wife.

Now you are making things up again - Carney categorically said that he would make it work, altho it wouldn't be easy.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

why is that? SNP would stand no chance?

The reason is this.

The SNP are an Independence Party. They are not a party which delivers. Their sole goal has been independence, good or bad. Whether the people are richer or poorer.

Scots see through him, they may vote yes but they aren't all snp voters.

The Labour Party however is the party of the nation. They hold what 41 out of 59 seats and it is a big diff once the top dogs of scottish politics return to the top table in Scotland. The best labour politicians go to Westminster currently, the best snp politicians go to holyrood.

Salmond cannot deliver on his promises. He can't offer high public services akin to Nordic countries with USA style taxation rates. Don't insult our intelligence. People aren't complete idiots.

If he wins then I doubt he will even be leader come official independence.

People aren't necessary loyal.... Churchill was voted out within months of WWII ending, even though they held him as the saviour of the nation.

Once negotiations start and people realise currency is screwed, EU membership is years down the line and tough choices will have to be made you'll see old hands like brown and alexander return to Scotland to take over. If brown doesn't take over than alexander should... He was Blair's choice for next leader of the uk Labour Party, well respected and I think he can help Scotland make the choices it needs to make however hard they may be.

You're right, they're not - in fact the SNP were elected with a majority in Holyrood that would be an astounding win for the Yes campaign. Fortunately Yes is a broad church, a collection of all sorts - SNP, Green, SSP, Labour for Indy, RIC, National Collective, etc.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

why is that? SNP would stand no chance?

The reason is this.

The SNP are an Independence Party. They are not a party which delivers. Their sole goal has been independence, good or bad. Whether the people are richer or poorer.

Scots see through him, they may vote yes but they aren't all snp voters.

The Labour Party however is the party of the nation. They hold what 41 out of 59 seats and it is a big diff once the top dogs of scottish politics return to the top table in Scotland. The best labour politicians go to Westminster currently, the best snp politicians go to holyrood.

Salmond cannot deliver on his promises. He can't offer high public services akin to Nordic countries with USA style taxation rates. Don't insult our intelligence. People aren't complete idiots.

If he wins then I doubt he will even be leader come official independence.

People aren't necessary loyal.... Churchill was voted out within months of WWII ending, even though they held him as the saviour of the nation.

Once negotiations start and people realise currency is screwed, EU membership is years down the line and tough choices will have to be made you'll see old hands like brown and alexander return to Scotland to take over. If brown doesn't take over than alexander should... He was Blair's choice for next leader of the uk Labour Party, well respected and I think he can help Scotland make the choices it needs to make however hard they may be.

Are you quite mad ? Brown or Alexander . Who in theie right mind would want either of those lying incompetents ? Brown helped destroy the economy and Alexander organised an electoral catastrophe. Take it you don't want 'Bendy Wendy' Alexander as a sibling double act into the bargain ?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

What I really don't get on this forum is the so called 'expert' financial, defence and legal opinions that seem to be gathered from the rabidly loyalist, fanatically anti-Scottish, pro-establishment at any cost, right wing London media.    Someone above even quoted a piece from the Express ffs.    What next Nigel Farage via the Daily Fail?     These same people do not appear to have a remit in the referendum.   I disagree with Radge but at least he has a vested interest - although quoting Gordon 'Light Touch' Brown when discussing finance was bizarre to say the least.

Outside of the national right wing obvious no voters.

For independence

Sunday Herald.

Against independence

FT
Economist
Scotsman
Guardian
Herald

They're all wrong right.

you could through in all the academics, economists, scientists etc who back no. but that would be boring as the list would be too many.

When I see the yes campaign bring out a reputed academic they didn't pay off (stiglitz) then I'd be impressed. The real reason is that when you take out emotion and you weigh up the pros and cons from a political and financial point of view, its a poor case at best and at worst, its sheer lies spat out by the Yes campaign.

Here's one: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/no-economic-or-moral-grounds-for-rejection-of-currency-union/ - are you truly "impressed"? No, of course you're not, cos I could list a hundred and it still wouldn't change your opinion - and I'm afraid that's all you can offer, just a view. I'm out

[fa0019]

I would rather have this braw laddie for Scottish PM than Wee Gordy Broon :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

be careful what you wish for. Scottish Labour will win the next election under a yes vote and my money would be on Brown to re-enter politics.

why is that? SNP would stand no chance?

The reason is this.

The SNP are an Independence Party. They are not a party which delivers. Their sole goal has been independence, good or bad. Whether the people are richer or poorer.
W
Scots see through him, they may vote yes but they aren't all snp voters.

The Labour Party however is the party of the nation. They hold what 41 out of 59 seats and it is a big diff once the top dogs of scottish politics return to the top table in Scotland. The best labour politicians go to Westminster currently, the best snp politicians go to holyrood.

Salmond cannot deliver on his promises. He can't offer high public services akin to Nordic countries with USA style taxation rates. Don't insult our intelligence. People aren't complete idiots.

If he wins then I doubt he will even be leader come official independence.

People aren't necessary loyal.... Churchill was voted out within months of WWII ending, even though they held him as the saviour of the nation.

Once negotiations start and people realise currency is screwed, EU membership is years down the line and tough choices will have to be made you'll see old hands like brown and alexander return to Scotland to take over. If brown doesn't take over than alexander should... He was Blair's choice for next leader of the uk Labour Party, well respected and I think he can help Scotland make the choices it needs to make however hard they may be.

Are you quite mad ?    Brown or Alexander .  Who in theie right mind would want either of those lying incompetents ?   Brown helped destroy the economy and Alexander organised an electoral catastrophe.    Take it you don't want 'Bendy Wendy' Alexander as a sibling double act into the bargain ?  

Scottish labour won 41 out of 59 seats in Scotland 2010. The snp barely garnered more votes than the Tories. Do you honestly think that the people see the scottish parliament as the most important part of scottish parliament, the highest office. It is not, at least not yet.

So you'd rather have salmond then. Fine but be careful what you wish for.

I don't have a vote, I emigrated. I am a no supporter but understand why some may want to vote yes and whilst it would hurt, if that's what my countrymen want then so be it.

But read between the lines please.

There is no paradise off the coast of Skye. There is not 100 years of black gold left. We will not achieve monetary union with England, we will have to wait for EU membership and eventually take up the euro, the FS industry will up sticks to rUK and we won't simply refuse all proportional debt.

I respect anyone who says FA, I hear what you say, but I still think my heart says yes. But anyone who believes this tripe that independent Scotland is some nirvana with 74 virgins then my advice is get off the crack and open your eyes.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Scottish labour won 41 out of 59 seats in Scotland 2010. The snp barely garnered more votes than the Tories. Do you honestly think that the people see the scottish parliament as the most important part of scottish parliament, the highest office. It is not, at least not yet.

Yes, i believe they do

There is no paradise off the coast of Skye.

There is, it just depends which way you're looking - north-west, its Lewis and Harris; east, its the Scottish mainland

[Sponsored content]