Wales vs the Boks

by maestegmafia Mon 24 Nov 2014, 8:21 am

First topic message reminder :

Wales vs the Boks - Page 5 Wales_10

Wales v South Africa
29 November 2014
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

****
Another week of misery for us Welshmen. What a shame, so much to be proud of vs the ABs but the scoreline does not reflect that.

These boys have shown they can push SA and it would be good to take something from this Autumn Series though I doubt many of expect we will.

Will be missing some good players who have to return to their clubs. So will SA.

We also have a good number of worrying injuries. Not sure if the team announcement will be Tuesday or not...?

The boks fielded a few experimental selections last Saturday against Italy in a weakened team. I imagine they will change a few players around and we will see a side similar to that which beat England.

by The Saint Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The only question I have is, Why pick King over Tipuric ?

Because Tips has had zero impact in the games he has come off the bench in. I don't remember him being any good against Fiji either. I would have opted for Baker over both of these guys.

It could be a good game, but that awful bench will just lose it for us. SA still have some class operators like Bismarck, De Villiers and Matfield which will help steer their team.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:31 pm

Wales 15 - 34 Bokke

by LordDowlais Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:32 pm

The Saint wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The only question I have is, Why pick King over Tipuric ?

Because Tips has had zero impact in the games he has come off the bench in. I don't remember him being any good against Fiji either. I would have opted for Baker over both of these guys.

It could be a good game, but that awful bench will just lose it for us. SA still have some class operators like Bismarck, De Villiers and Matfield which will help steer their team.

Saint, we would not beat the team that is being put out on Saturday by the Boks even if we had all our first choice picks to call up, we just do not know how to beat the SH teams, so perhaps we should give a few chances to the fringe players, you never know, they could step up to the mark.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:34 pm

No real surprises there other than King over Tipuric, can't see what fuss is about king myself and if he's suddenly considered better than Tips why just use him for this game.

It's a shame it takes an injury for Williams to get picked and why not at XV, I would like to think him and Halfpenny have the brains to swap it about during the game but I doubt it.

Lets for the love of god hope we don't have to rely on Phillips and Priestland coming off the bench to either try and change the game or close it out, however I bet the Boks are hoping they do come off the bench to change the game in their favour.

by fa0019 Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:35 pm

I would play Tipuric against this bok side for certain.

No Burger, no Alberts, no Louw. The backrow are not their usual giants.

No heavy hitter in the centres.

You can forgive a big tackler in the backrow for a more open player like Tipuric.

by The Saint Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Saint wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The only question I have is, Why pick King over Tipuric ?

Because Tips has had zero impact in the games he has come off the bench in. I don't remember him being any good against Fiji either. I would have opted for Baker over both of these guys.

It could be a good game, but that awful bench will just lose it for us. SA still have some class operators like Bismarck, De Villiers and Matfield which will help steer their team.

Saint, we would not beat the team that is being put out on Saturday by the Boks even if we had all our first choice picks to call up, we just do not know how to beat the SH teams, so perhaps we should give a few chances to the fringe players, you never know, they could step up to the mark.

I actually agree with everything you say for once. That should have happened from day one, but injury and non-Wales based players have restricted that.

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:46 pm

wales606 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The only question I have is, Why pick King over Tipuric ?

Probably want a more physical players on the bench against SA

That's exactly why cement head has done it in my opinion.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:47 pm

Saint,

Still not sure a baker at 8 Faletau at 6 combo would have worked but if don't try don't know etc

by Bullsbok Thu 27 Nov 2014, 12:58 pm

fa0019 wrote:I would play Tipuric against this bok side for certain.

No Burger, no Alberts, no Louw. The backrow are not their usual giants.

No heavy hitter in the centres.

You can forgive a big tackler in the backrow for a more open player like Tipuric.

Actually the pack is missing a lot of muscle compared to our usual . Its only Bissy Eben and Duane . I remember 2010 England vs SA when the Bok pack turned up with Juan , Spies , Burger Bakkies Victor Bissy when some unlucky Englishman tried to start a scuffle only for the boys to slowly walk towards him . Poor bloke must have wanted to p1ss himself Yahoo

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 1:31 pm

Can't believe Cement Head is still using the performed well in training line though, as justification for King over Tipuric. He has got some use out of that.

by Knowsit17 Thu 27 Nov 2014, 1:34 pm

Usual poor yet predictable call by Gatland. Williams almost invariably has quiet or poor games on the wing and Halfpenny's strike rate is far more effective on the wing than at 15 but who needs common sense nowadays picard

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 1:40 pm

I just wish the players would take it upon themselves to swap and change during the game. I think the first XV is best available at the moment but the bench is pretty weak.

by glamorganalun Thu 27 Nov 2014, 2:10 pm

For me King is a logical choice he covers 4 to 8 from the bench not just 7. Not sure Charteris is worth his position he needs more games under his belt but we may not have much choice.
The team more or less what I expected from Gatland, it is a shame we can t field an up and coming wing to replace North.

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 2:56 pm

We're always calling for Gats to pick form players, but it seems Tipuric is exempt from this? He's not been in good form, hasn't for a long time IMO, hasn't contributed much when he's come on. So why not try someone else? Phillips hasn't done much either and we've all called for his head, so why not Tips!

by fa0019 Thu 27 Nov 2014, 3:22 pm

When was the last time someone out bok'd the boks?

England from about 2002-2005 maybe. Ireland and NZ every now and again.

Otherwise it doesn't happen.

You have to beat the bok's through their weaknesses not their strengths.... not unless you have a side full of behemoths. Tried it 9 times.... lost 9 times.

Reminds me of a scene in Blackadder goes fourth...

Gen Mel. - Good man. Now, Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.

Blackadder - Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

Darling - How can you possibly know that Blackadder? It's classified information.

Blackadder - It's the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that.

Gen Mel. - E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time!

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 3:34 pm

Griff wrote:We're always calling for Gats to pick form players, but it seems Tipuric is exempt from this? He's not been in good form, hasn't for a long time IMO, hasn't contributed much when he's come on. So why not try someone else? Phillips hasn't done much either and we've all called for his head, so why not Tips!

Griff,

How dare you, go wash your mouth out, you should know that there are a few players that we musn't slate such as Tipuric, North, AWJ, Halfpenny and Jenkins yet others such as Cuthbert, Lydiate, Li Williams and Charteris are fair game. Whistle

by Bullsbok Thu 27 Nov 2014, 3:36 pm

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time someone out bok'd the boks?

England from about 2002-2005 maybe. Ireland and NZ every now and again.

Otherwise it doesn't happen.

You have to beat the bok's through their weaknesses not their strengths.... not unless you have a side full of behemoths. Tried it 9 times.... lost 9 times.

Reminds me of a scene in Blackadder goes fourth...

Gen Mel. - Good man. Now, Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.

Blackadder - Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

Darling - How can you possibly know that Blackadder? It's classified information.

Blackadder - It's the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that.

Gen Mel. - E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time!

Example those tricksy Aussies who never try out-muscle us , in fact i doubt they give a hoot about Bok physicality like most nations . Rather , they concentrate on giving the ball lots of air and making those physical beasts run around for 80min . Very Happy

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 4:18 pm

Oops Gatland has said judge him on the WC, look how well that went for Gareth Jenkins.

by glamorganalun Thu 27 Nov 2014, 4:43 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Oops Gatland has said judge him on the WC, look how well that went for Gareth Jenkins.

I assume he will walk if we go out in the group stage, the problem is we will get more of the same with Howley.

by GavinDragon Thu 27 Nov 2014, 5:02 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Oops Gatland has said judge him on the WC, look how well that went for Gareth Jenkins.

I assume he will walk if we go out in the group stage, the problem is we will get more of the same with Howley.

who else is there?

I do understand why there is frustration with Gatland ans a clamour for a fresh approach (look at the impact schmidt is having across the Irish Sea)

However lets not forget where we were in 2007 or even before then. We have never been so competitive against SH sides....

I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 5:11 pm

I don't think he should go at all but I really feel that the backroom staff need shaking up and refreshing.

by glamorganalun Thu 27 Nov 2014, 5:48 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I don't think he should go at all but I really feel that the backroom staff need shaking up and refreshing.

Agreed, hence my concern with Howley the attack coach and his forwards coach McBryde.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 5:55 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:I don't think he should go at all but I really feel that the backroom staff need shaking up and refreshing.

Agreed, hence my concern with Howley the attack coach and his forwards coach McBryde.

I guess the problem is whose about at the moment and do we really want to be making such changes this close to the WC. I do fear that Howley is being thought of as Gatlands successor whenever he does go and that fills me with dread.

by offload Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:08 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:18 pm

offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

by Jhamer25 Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:49 pm

How on earth has King made in the welsh? never mind the 23

There are much better flankers in wales Lewis Evans, Nic Cudd, Aaaron Shingler, Josh Turnball, Sam Lewis

He is a descent club player at best. I agree that Tip uric doesn't really deserve a place in the 23 because he hasn't showed much to me this season and has had no impact or presence this autumn (off the bench or fiji). I mean come on what impact will King make? apart form making a few tackles nothing, its not like he is a play maker, no break down dominance, not a destructive ball carrier or line breaker is it; one player who is though is Dan Baker who is perfect to come on after 45-50 minutes.
It just feels some of these players are put on the bench for the sake of it.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:53 pm

Here we go again the Beeb blaming Li Williams for the summer defeat whilst St George the undroppable gets away blameless. Makes my fecking blood boil.

by majesticimperialman Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:57 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

bedfordwelsh.

I do not know who would be a coach to take over from Gatland. But what i do know is that Gatland as been good for Wales since he became head coach. But it as been said that some times a coach can only take a team so far. Do you think that Gatland as taken Wales as far has he can?

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:08 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Here we go again the Beeb blaming Li Williams for the summer defeat whilst St George the undroppable gets away blameless. Makes my fecking blood boil.

Are the beeb blaming him? All I've seen is quotes from Gatland, basically saying he has learned from past mistakes (with that 'tackle' being one of them).

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:16 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Here we go again the Beeb blaming Li Williams for the summer defeat whilst St George the undroppable gets away blameless. Makes my fecking blood boil.

Are the beeb blaming him? All I've seen is quotes from Gatland, basically saying he has learned from past mistakes (with that 'tackle' being one of them).

Yeah it's on their website and was just on the BBc Wales news.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:18 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

bedfordwelsh.

I do not know who would be a coach to take over from Gatland. But what i do know is that Gatland as been good for Wales since he became head coach. But it as been said that some times a coach can only take a team so far. Do you think that Gatland as taken Wales as far has he can?

Maj,

I still think he is right man but as I have mentioned I do think he needs to shake up his backroom staff but he seems pretty loyal to them, I also wish he would at least try to develop a Plan B. Some of the players seem afraid to even attempt anything that isn't part of the original game plan.

by maestegmafia Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:56 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

bedfordwelsh.

I do not know who would be a coach to take over from Gatland. But what i do know is that Gatland as been good for Wales since he became head coach. But it as been said that some times a coach can only take a team so far. Do you think that Gatland as taken Wales as far has he can?

Maj,

I still think he is right man but as I have mentioned I do think he needs to shake up his backroom staff but he seems pretty loyal to them, I also wish he would at least try to develop a Plan B. Some of the players seem afraid to even attempt anything that isn't part of the original game plan.

Bedford mate

For all we know Gatland may well have given the lads a B,C,D,E and F plan for all we know the players just don't impliment it. To be honest plan A has put us in the lead going into the final quarter against the Wallabies and All Blacks and it was us causing them to utilise their Plan B that lost us the game.

by **Biltong** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:58 pm

Interesting article I found

Rugby365 wrote:This is one for the conspiracy theorists. This weekend there will be no French-based players in the Springbok team, while Wales will have five in their matchday squad.

The Springbok camp has tactfully sidestepped the issue of why French clubs have allowed their players to play for the Welsh national team in a Test match taking place outside the newly-renamed World Rugby's window for international matches.

At the same time the Boks have been denied the same privilege.

In fact on Thursday it was confirmed that a request was made by the Boks for Toulouse scrumhalf Jano Vermaak to rejoin the squad, but it was rejected as he is playing for his club this weekend.

There has been no formal explanation forthcoming, leaving room for speculation that it is a deliberate ploy to get another Northern Hemisphere win over a Southern Hemisphere powerhouse ahead of next year's World Cup.

The Boks have been denied the services of seven players, five of those based in France, for Saturday's encounter at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Johan Goosen (Racing Metro), Bryan Habana (Toulon), Jano Vermaak (Toulouse), Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse) and Morné Steyn (Stade Francais) had to return to their clubs. The Boks are also without Japan-based utility back JP Pietersen and loose forward Schalk Burger.

Wales, in stark contrast, named Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon), Jonathan Davies (Clermont Auvergne), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro) and Mike Phillips (Racing Metro) in their matchday squad.

In September this year, during the Rugby Championship, Toulon boss Mourad Boudjellal spat the dummy when he had a bad run of injuries and threatened to "tear up" the contracts of Habana and Bakkies Botha (who last week retired from Test rugby).

At the time Boudjellal also threatened Halfpenny and even suggested he would take the IRB (now World Rugby) to court to challenge them over the law that forces clubs to release players to their nationals teams during 'international windows'.

Saturday's match falls outside that window, but the Welsh players - including Halfpenny - have been made available. The Boks have not!

Bok coach Heyneke was at his tactful best when asked about the forced changes and the absence of players based in France and Japan.

He described it as "a great opportunity" for the players still in the squad.

"Only three players this year have played in all our games, where last year we had 10 [to feature in every Test]," Meyer said in Cardiff, ahead of Saturday's outing.

"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

"It is a great testament to our depth, to be able to still put out a side like this. It is a great side and there are a lot of youngsters who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to play.

"They have been waiting for this opportunity and this is a chance to show they can step up."

Meyer described the tour as "a test of character" for the national team, because it is the first time they have been on a four-Test tour since he took over in 2012.

"We will play against a very strong Welsh side," he said, adding: "It will be a big test of our character and depth."

What do you guys think?

by Seagultaf Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Who is the loosehead cover on the bench?

Is James King actually covering 4,5,6 and 7?

Awful bench. Let's just get this game over with.

Rhodri Jones is loose head cover (used to be a very promising loosehead, rubbish tight head) not as good as Rob Evans though.

Charteris is covering 4 & 5.

No a bad bench, plenty of players with something to prove.

So why has he picked a player who has not played loosehead in 2 years, to cover loosehead?

Rhodri is a mobile extra flanker type prop, with good rugby ball playing skills. Unfortunately at tight head he is rubbish in the scrums. A return to loose head may be the making of him, I am certainly happier seeing him covering loose head.

by Seagultaf Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:05 pm

Biltong wrote:Interesting article I found

Rugby365 wrote:This is one for the conspiracy theorists. This weekend there will be no French-based players in the Springbok team, while Wales will have five in their matchday squad.

The Springbok camp has tactfully sidestepped the issue of why French clubs have allowed their players to play for the Welsh national team in a Test match taking place outside the newly-renamed World Rugby's window for international matches.

At the same time the Boks have been denied the same privilege.

In fact on Thursday it was confirmed that a request was made by the Boks for Toulouse scrumhalf Jano Vermaak to rejoin the squad, but it was rejected as he is playing for his club this weekend.

There has been no formal explanation forthcoming, leaving room for speculation that it is a deliberate ploy to get another Northern Hemisphere win over a Southern Hemisphere powerhouse ahead of next year's World Cup.

The Boks have been denied the services of seven players, five of those based in France, for Saturday's encounter at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Johan Goosen (Racing Metro), Bryan Habana (Toulon), Jano Vermaak (Toulouse), Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse) and Morné Steyn (Stade Francais) had to return to their clubs. The Boks are also without Japan-based utility back JP Pietersen and loose forward Schalk Burger.

Wales, in stark contrast, named Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon), Jonathan Davies (Clermont Auvergne), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro) and Mike Phillips (Racing Metro) in their matchday squad.

In September this year, during the Rugby Championship, Toulon boss Mourad Boudjellal spat the dummy when he had a bad run of injuries and threatened to "tear up" the contracts of Habana and Bakkies Botha (who last week retired from Test rugby).

At the time Boudjellal also threatened Halfpenny and even suggested he would take the IRB (now World Rugby) to court to challenge them over the law that forces clubs to release players to their nationals teams during 'international windows'.

Saturday's match falls outside that window, but the Welsh players - including Halfpenny - have been made available. The Boks have not!

Bok coach Heyneke was at his tactful best when asked about the forced changes and the absence of players based in France and Japan.

He described it as "a great opportunity" for the players still in the squad.

"Only three players this year have played in all our games, where last year we had 10 [to feature in every Test]," Meyer said in Cardiff, ahead of Saturday's outing.

"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

"It is a great testament to our depth, to be able to still put out a side like this. It is a great side and there are a lot of youngsters who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to play.

"They have been waiting for this opportunity and this is a chance to show they can step up."

Meyer described the tour as "a test of character" for the national team, because it is the first time they have been on a four-Test tour since he took over in 2012.

"We will play against a very strong Welsh side," he said, adding: "It will be a big test of our character and depth."

What do you guys think?

That Wales have paid the French clubs compensation for the release of thier players whist SA have not?

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:05 pm

It's called negotiation Biltong. Gatland and team went in person to France before the season started, paid them a vist and spent time with the clubs and owners. I seem to remember they ran a few coaching clinics there too, all in the name of building relationships. He came away with agreements for player release. If the SA coaches have done that as well but not got release, then yes I smell a rat. But if they haven't spent their time visiting, putting on coaching sessions, building rapport then what do you expect? This is a non story I suspect.

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:10 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Here we go again the Beeb blaming Li Williams for the summer defeat whilst St George the undroppable gets away blameless. Makes my fecking blood boil.

Are the beeb blaming him? All I've seen is quotes from Gatland, basically saying he has learned from past mistakes (with that 'tackle' being one of them).

Yeah it's on their website and was just on the BBc Wales news.

Isn't that just a headline? Have you read the whole quotes?

by **Biltong** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:11 pm

Just asking your opinions guys, I have no opinion on it other than Meyer is digging his own hole for relying on overseas players when we should rather develop local talent.

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:15 pm

Sorry Bilt. Wasn't meant to sound confrontational. Just typed a bit quick!

Honestly, I just think and remember something about a deal being done by Gatland. So I think it's a Welsh deal vs no SA deal rather than a conspiracy to get another NH win (which lets face it is unlikely given our history!)

by Guest Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:16 pm

Another way to look at could be that the Welsh French-based players are not really deemed that needed, but the SA ones are! Our boys struggle to get on the pitch in France!

by The Saint Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:03 pm

Do people know for a fact Rhodri is covering LH? I think Jarvis has played LH this season, and Gats really does see Rhodri as a TH even though he isn't really a good one. Also the team sheet read Jarvis, Williams...in that order. It's usually the hooker, LH and TH replacements named in that order right?

by Bullsbok Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:27 pm

Biltong wrote:Just asking your opinions guys, I have no opinion on it other than Meyer is digging his own hole for relying on overseas players when we should rather develop local talent.

Meyers squad has a suprising amount of depth for someone who hasnt developed local talent and relys on overseas players , Meyers squad has a suprising amount of depth . "Only three players this year have played in all our games, where last year we had 10 [to feature in every Test]," Meyer said in Cardiff, ahead of Saturday's outing.

"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

"It is a great testament to our depth, to be able to still put out a side like this. It is a great side and there are a lot of youngsters who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to play"

Theres the full statement to something you quoted the other day . This tells me contrary to popular belief Meyer has in fact developed local talent even if 4 of his preferred starters are based overseas.

by wayne Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:34 pm

The Saint wrote:Do people know for a fact Rhodri is covering LH? I think Jarvis has played LH this season, and Gats really does see Rhodri as a TH even though he isn't really a good one. Also the team sheet read Jarvis, Williams...in that order. It's usually the hooker, LH and TH replacements named in that order right?

Saint, a few on our board reckon Jarvis will never make a decent T/H in the scrum even though he is good in the loose, and he played L/H in the trial match at the Liberty earlier this year and that he was outstanding, I didn't see this game so wouldn't know, and want him to revert there for us, because primarily he was a L/H before he joined us, so wouldn't be surprised if he is the L/H replacement.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:41 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

bedfordwelsh.

I do not know who would be a coach to take over from Gatland. But what i do know is that Gatland as been good for Wales since he became head coach. But it as been said that some times a coach can only take a team so far. Do you think that Gatland as taken Wales as far has he can?

Maj,

I still think he is right man but as I have mentioned I do think he needs to shake up his backroom staff but he seems pretty loyal to them, I also wish he would at least try to develop a Plan B. Some of the players seem afraid to even attempt anything that isn't part of the original game plan.

Bedford mate

For all we know Gatland may well have given the lads a B,C,D,E and F plan for all we know the players just don't impliment it. To be honest plan A has put us in the lead going into the final quarter against the Wallabies and All Blacks and it was us causing them to utilise their Plan B that lost us the game.

Or our inability to close games out be it menatally or psychologically

by **Biltong** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:04 pm

Bullsbok wrote:
Biltong wrote:Just asking your opinions guys, I have no opinion on it other than Meyer is digging his own hole for relying on overseas players when we should rather develop local talent.

Meyers squad has a suprising amount of depth for someone who hasnt developed local talent and relys on overseas players , Meyers squad has a suprising amount of depth . "Only three players this year have played in all our games, where last year we had 10 [to feature in every Test]," Meyer said in Cardiff, ahead of Saturday's outing.

"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

"It is a great testament to our depth, to be able to still put out a side like this. It is a great side and there are a lot of youngsters who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to play"

Theres the full statement to something you quoted the other day . This tells me contrary to popular belief Meyer has in fact developed local talent even if 4 of his preferred starters are based overseas.

No, disagree with that. Meyer has given out caps, not built a squad of experienced players outside of his core group.

The depth he suggests there are comes fro the depth in talent we naturally possess.

The depth came mainly due to injuries to his chosen players.

by **Biltong** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:19 pm

Meyer wrote:"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

I would love to see that full list.

Overseas players
Schalk Burger
Schalk Brits
Gurthro Steenkamp
Francois Louw
Bakkies Botha - retired this week
Jaque Fourie - retired today
Ruan Pienaar
Fourie du Preez
JP Pietersen
Morne Steyn
Jano Vermaak - capped under Meyer - 3 caps
Johan Goosen - Capped under Meyer - 4 caps

Local players
Frans Malherbe - capped under meyer 4 caps
Arno Botha - capped under Meyer 2 caps
Schalk v d Merwe - Not capped yet
Pieter Steph du Toit - Capped under Meyer 2 caps
Willem Alberts
Pierre Spies
Jaco Kriel - not capped yet
Jannie du Plessis
Warren Whiteley - Capped under Meyer - 2 caps

So his unavailable players that he "developed" has les than a handful of caps.

In three years.

The only players he has developed from the start was Willie, Eben, Marcel, Jan and recently Reinach with 6 caps and de Allende with 2 caps.

his development players only et a shot when his favourites aren't available. Look at Hendricks.

Then there are those like JJ and Juandre Kruger and Rhule that he has discarded.

by samuraidragon Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:55 pm

offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

Probably too late now, but I think that's right. Ireland and Oz are thriving under new coaches.

Coaches, like football managers, should be rated against the quality of the resources they have. Gatland & Howley have had much , much better players than previous Welsh coaches.

Yet they cannot get the results (so far) against the SH Big 3 that Ireland England and even Scotland have.

Mike Ruddock had a much better record, given he had a physically smaller team with several journeymen players (Luscombe, Michael Owen, weak second row).

It's because we repeatedly had poor results against second tier teams in AIs that we ended up in the group of death.

by Bullsbok Thu 27 Nov 2014, 11:23 pm

Biltong wrote:
Meyer wrote:"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

I would love to see that full list.

Overseas players
Schalk Burger
Schalk Brits
Gurthro Steenkamp
Francois Louw
Bakkies Botha - retired this week
Jaque Fourie - retired today
Ruan Pienaar
Fourie du Preez
JP Pietersen
Morne Steyn
Jano Vermaak - capped under Meyer - 3 caps
Johan Goosen - Capped under Meyer - 4 caps

Local players
Frans Malherbe - capped under meyer 4 caps
Arno Botha - capped under Meyer 2 caps
Schalk v d Merwe - Not capped yet
Pieter Steph du Toit - Capped under Meyer 2 caps
Willem Alberts
Pierre Spies
Jaco Kriel - not capped yet
Jannie du Plessis
Warren Whiteley - Capped under Meyer - 2 caps

So his unavailable players that he "developed" has les than a handful of caps.

In three years.

The only players he has developed from the start was Willie, Eben, Marcel, Jan and recently Reinach with 6 caps and de Allende with 2 caps.

his development players only et a shot when his favourites aren't available. Look at Hendricks.

Then there are those like JJ and Juandre Kruger and Rhule that he has discarded.

His development players only get a shot when his favourites arent available . I dont see anything wrong with that you play your best team always and develop where needed . We needed new locks he brought in Eben and PSDT its not his fault the latter got injured. We needed flankers to cover the oldies he brought in Marcel , Oupa , Whitely Arno and now Carr . Two are injured again unforseen . Besides we already have a rock solid unit in Duane Alberts and Flouw who are first choice when fit. If all goes to plan Marcel Coetzee will gain along with Oupa and one of the other injured loosies. Two sets .

Scrumhalf FDP Ruan first choice - yet we've played tour and most of RC without them . Depth

The only fault you can find in Meyers depth is at 13 and 15 although Lambie can cover 15 . 13 is the only place he's been complacent otherwise he's built depth and given more than enough options .

by Bullsbok Thu 27 Nov 2014, 11:26 pm

Bullsbok wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Meyer wrote:"There are 25 players not available, due to injuries or other external factors.

I would love to see that full list.

Overseas players
Schalk Burger
Schalk Brits
Gurthro Steenkamp
Francois Louw
Bakkies Botha - retired this week
Jaque Fourie - retired today
Ruan Pienaar
Fourie du Preez
JP Pietersen
Morne Steyn
Jano Vermaak - capped under Meyer - 3 caps
Johan Goosen - Capped under Meyer - 4 caps

Local players
Frans Malherbe - capped under meyer 4 caps
Arno Botha - capped under Meyer 2 caps
Schalk v d Merwe - Not capped yet
Pieter Steph du Toit - Capped under Meyer 2 caps
Willem Alberts
Pierre Spies
Jaco Kriel - not capped yet
Jannie du Plessis
Warren Whiteley - Capped under Meyer - 2 caps

So his unavailable players that he "developed" has les than a handful of caps.

In three years.

The only players he has developed from the start was Willie, Eben, Marcel, Jan and recently Reinach with 6 caps and de Allende with 2 caps.

his development players only et a shot when his favourites aren't available. Look at Hendricks.

Then there are those like JJ and Juandre Kruger and Rhule that he has discarded.

His development players only get a shot when his favourites arent available . I dont see anything wrong with that you play your best team always and develop where needed . We needed new locks he brought in Eben and PSDT its not his fault the latter got injured. We needed flankers to cover the oldies he brought in Marcel , Oupa , Whitely Arno and now Carr . Two are injured again unforseen . Besides we already have a rock solid unit in Duane Alberts and Flouw who are first choice when fit. If all goes to plan Marcel Coetzee will gain along with Oupa and one of the other injured loosies. Two sets .

Scrumhalf FDP Ruan first choice - yet we've played tour and most of RC without them . Depth

The only fault you can find in Meyers depth is at 13 and 15 although Lambie can cover 15 . 13 is the only place he's been complacent otherwise he's built depth and given more than enough options .

The next coach will come and find suitable replacements for JDV , FDP , Victor etc when they leave . The team is a machine you remove parts where necessary and replace them with new parts , you dont dismantle the whole thing and replace every single piece because theres a new owner

by GavinDragon Fri 28 Nov 2014, 6:20 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
offload wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
I can remember regular pastings, when getting within 20 was a good performance

We may be more competitive now, but is that a reason not to consider a new coach? Gatland has had a positive impact for sure, but his impact has stalled and that's usually a very good reason to move on and get some fresh thinking.

OL,

Do you really think we should change this close to the WC and if so who do you think should come and who would be able to get better out of the players as with the exceptions the best about are being picked.

bedfordwelsh.

I do not know who would be a coach to take over from Gatland. But what i do know is that Gatland as been good for Wales since he became head coach. But it as been said that some times a coach can only take a team so far. Do you think that Gatland as taken Wales as far has he can?

Maj,

I still think he is right man but as I have mentioned I do think he needs to shake up his backroom staff but he seems pretty loyal to them, I also wish he would at least try to develop a Plan B. Some of the players seem afraid to even attempt anything that isn't part of the original game plan.

There are signs of a plan B emerging - look at how we played against Australia in particular and to an extent in the summer, our kicking game has improved no end, we now kick to compete on the whole and put teams under pressure, i wuld still like to see us put dinks over the top against rushing defences but that is up to Dan Biggar to execute as he sees it

Also against australia there were players attempting the offload or getting their arms out of the tackle to try to offload and by and large it worked,

When people say 'plan B' i often wonder exactly what they mean? Rugby is a simple game, win your set piece, the collisions, hit space and make few errors and you will win the game.

I suppose for me I would like us to have the nous to slightly alter the game plan in attack and defence while in the game. e.g to stop blitzing when teams are just dinking balls over the top or drop the wingers back to help the FB. Or perhaps kicking for touch when we are knackered last saturday to give our defence a time to set

I think if you look at how much better the players play for wales compared to their clubs and regions and then ask the question 'is gatland getting the most out of them' with the difference in the quality of performance you can only say yes..

I will say again Gatland can't stop dropped balls, turnovers at rucks, missed tackles and intercept passes, if he could we would have beaten australia

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