1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture

Hugh Barrow wrote:“Tradition is very, very important,” said Alan Solomons. “It’s the oldest derby and to be involved is an absolute privilege.”

Like many good yarns, including the William Webb Ellis story, that certainly has a degree of truth. There was certainly no cup to be won on the 23 November 1872 at Glasgow Accies ground Burnbank when Scotland’s two largest cities first met under the then 20-a-side Rugby rules.

Two of the Glasgow team, Tom Chalmers and Willie Cross, had an intriguing decision to make that week – should they play against Edinburgh at rugby or play against England in the first-ever soccer international a week later at Hamilton Crescent?

They chose the former so Queens Park took on the Auld Enemy on their own. A year earlier Cross had goaled the first points recorded in the history of international rugby at Raeburn Place in the famous first Scotland v England international.

Between 1872 and 1995 there was still no cup to contest, just the honour of winning, and for generations who played that annual match in early December that sufficed whether it was played at Burnbank, Hamilton Crescent, Hampden Park, New or Old Anniesland or Hughenden in the west.

The first real inter-city cup was contested in the 1995-96 season’s match, when it was donated by the match sponsors, Slater, Hogg and Howison. It had the sponsor’s name on it and that remained for the following season, but for 1997-98 a new sponsor came on board – Inter-City Trains. So it became the Inter-City Cup.

This initiative was very much driven by the Glasgow District Committee of the day, including the likes of Ken Crichton from Stirling County and Andy Little of Glasgow High Kelvinside. By then the Inter-District Championship had become Scotland’s qualifying competition for Europe, and it is intriguing that qualification looks set to return next season.

However, in late March 1998 came the SRU decision to condense from four teams to two for European competition and that sounded the death knell for the Inter-District Cup. Glasgow and Edinburgh played a one-off match in 1998-99 and such was the popularity among supporters that the IDC was resurrected for season 1999-2000. That lasted only three seasons, ending in 2001-2002 and thereafter the Inter-City Cup languished in the Glasgow District office in Somerset Place for a few years.

It found a new life when the professional teams revived it in 2007 and has since become the major draw in the Scottish rugby calendar with crowds of close to 14,000 registered at Murrayfield and limited only to 10,000 in Glasgow, at the old Firhill venue, because of stadia capacity.

Scotstoun housed the 1997-98 fixture and was Glasgow’s first home in the Heineken Cup, though the home matches in the European Challenge Cup the previous season (the four Scottish teams’ first season in Europe) had been played at Hughenden.

What the players of bygone times would make of the international make-up of the current teams filling the jerseys is anybody’s guess but the influx of foreign players was commented on as long ago as 1891 when it was noted that Edinburgh fielded some “aliens”.

What remains constant is that those who now play in Glasgow and Edinburgh shirts wherever they hail from have the privilege to bear the cities’ names and that is not an honour to be taken lightly.

jimbopip wrote:So, the Tombola gets all emotional in this season of gluttony and goodwill and gives outings to the Coo, Jedi and Cap'n Kellock.
1. Shrek
2. Hall
3. Coo - I hope so, he'll be blowing out his arse after 30 mins!
4. Swinson
5. Cap'n (Naka and Jonnie will probably play but they could do with a rest unless Toonie wants to win convincingly at home and then give them a break for the dead rubber)
6. It's his jersey, he's mean and hungry and the best 6 Scotland have...Rob Harley.
7.Jedi ( it's his turn to put Roddy Grant in his place : every one else at the club has done it) not sure what you're on about here - Grant has been a consistently good performer in these fixtures.
8. Wison, Bluto needs a break is scared of Denton. OK, I take that back - even I can't seriously say that!
9. Henners Piecrust (Niko for impact)
10. Dancer (two easy run outs to get back his confidence) - Fine by me, will be interesting to see how much he chokes with his goal kicking this week!
11. Tenesee Tam
12. Dunbar if fit, Hornee or anyone who can run faster than Lightning McStrauss. Pity Bru's unavailable. That'll be any player in the squad then (including the injured)?
13. Richie Vee
14. DTH
15. Hogg or Murchie makes no difference they'll both be streets ahead of the opposition. I'll give you Hogg, but I don't think Murchie is any better than Tonks or Cuthbert

replacements; it doesn't really matter- it's not as if it'll be that close.

Don't you love the season of Peace on Earth and Goodwill To All?

GLove39 wrote:Also apparently George Clancy will ref the first leg

funnyExiledScot wrote:Heathcote's kicking was dreadful against London Welsh at Murrayfield, both from hand and off the tee. That's why he was dropped in the first place. He also lacks range on his kicking from hand, compared to Tonks, is not as good defensively and doesn't have Tonks' pace with ball in hand. Yes, I think Heathcote is a better kicker than Hidalgo-Clyne, but is terms of getting the backline going, and relieving pressure with the boot, I think Tonks is ahead.

I'd be happy with Scott and Beard in the centres to give Burleigh more time to recover. Beard has been pretty solid this season and tends to make good distribution decisions. He lacks a bit of gas for a 13, but has a happy knack of sneaking extra yards. He's a clever player and has been in decent form this season.

The player who has impressed me is Ben Toolis. Runs the lineout nicely, throws his weight around and is pretty mobile. I've been more impressed with him than Bresler to be perfectly honest.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The problem for Edinburgh is that whilst we've won the last three games, they were all against cr*p teams and will be no yardstick for what Glasgow will throw at us. It's also worth nothing that before our "run of three", we lost to Zebre without a losing bonus point. Suffice to say that Glasgow are massive favourites.

Our defence is better than it has been in previous years, but the starting point was pretty grim. Our attack is completely blunt, so unless we can absorb pressure for 79 minutes and then rely on Heathcote to nail his kicks, I cannot see another path to victory. Conversely Glasgow can score tries from pretty much anywhere, and don't resort ot simply hoofing the ball away at every opportunity. This is a pretty big mismatch.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the weather could be a leveller. Torrid conditions can be as much an enemy to ambitious rugby as Alan Solomons, so if a negative territory based game is required, then we've had lots of practice!!

IanBru wrote:OK, in the spirit of the season, with tongue firmly planted in my rosy gin-drenched cheek, here's my dedicated post of anti-Edinburgh venom:
- Your cobbled streets have the texture of a Bosnian ice-rink, yet contain more tourist shops than sex shops;
- They say ‘it costs nothing to be funny’. Your sense of humour is imported every August, and yet you still pay £20 for a ticket.
- Your best museum is dedicated primarily to things that happened outside of the city;
- Like most houses in Alabama, the most interesting thing about your best landmark is that it has a gun fired from it daily.
- Your new mass-transit system allows you to, quite literally, be run out of town on a rail. Yup, £1 Billion to recreate the punishments of the 18th century.
- The old joke says that ‘a day out of Glasgow is a day wasted’. I always assumed that ‘wasted’ was advice on how to handle a day in Edinburgh.
- You are best known for a film about heroin addiction and music by a pair of twins. The only good thing about ‘Trainspotting’ is the soundtrack. The only good thing about the Proclaimers is the desire they elicit to experiment with hard drugs. I call it ‘the Circle of Leith’.

tigertattie wrote:

IanBru wrote:OK, in the spirit of the season, with tongue firmly planted in my rosy gin-drenched cheek, here's my dedicated post of anti-Edinburgh venom:
- Your cobbled streets have the texture of a Bosnian ice-rink, yet contain more tourist shops than sex shops;
- They say ‘it costs nothing to be funny’. Your sense of humour is imported every August, and yet you still pay £20 for a ticket.
- Your best museum is dedicated primarily to things that happened outside of the city;
- Like most houses in Alabama, the most interesting thing about your best landmark is that it has a gun fired from it daily.
- Your new mass-transit system allows you to, quite literally, be run out of town on a rail. Yup, £1 Billion to recreate the punishments of the 18th century.
- The old joke says that ‘a day out of Glasgow is a day wasted’. I always assumed that ‘wasted’ was advice on how to handle a day in Edinburgh.
- You are best known for a film about heroin addiction and music by a pair of twins. The only good thing about ‘Trainspotting’ is the soundtrack. The only good thing about the Proclaimers is the desire they elicit to experiment with hard drugs. I call it ‘the Circle of Leith’.

My rebuttle sir

Glasgow

The recognised legal tender in Glasgow is not the pound sterling, it's actually bottles of buckfast.
If you ask someone the time in Glasgow, the answer you get depends on what football team you support.
If you say the wrong football team, you are likely to have a knife inserted into your abdomen!
Glasgow actually has a higher crime rate that Beirut!
Edinburgh has a castle, Glasgow doesn’t.  Glasgow has two fortresses where bloody battles are fought to this day! They are called ibrox and parkhead!
In Edinburgh, folk use Biros to do work.  In Glasgow, folk use Giros to not have to do work!
In Glasgow, food banks are used as buckfast laundering services!
Glasgow is the only place on the UK mainland that has more rainfall than the west coast of Wales!
They say "it’s grim up north" but the folk in the north say "it's grim in Glasgow"
The commonwealth games were given to Glasgow to temporarily provide an increase to the average life expectancy of the city

jimbopip wrote:

If you look closely you'll notice that Bru's is funny, contains wit and a certain warmth. Tattie's on the other hand is, well , tatty. Totally unfunny and lacking in any humour. No wonder Schiz froths at the mouth at the mere mention of visiting Luvviedom.

VinceWLB wrote:I would like to see this Edinburgh team:

Dickinson
Ford
Andress
Bresler
Toolis
Leonardi
Grant
Denton

Hidalgo-Clyne
Heathcote

Visser
Scott
Beard
Fife
Tonks

But suspect Solomons will go with Common and Strauss even though they add absolutely nothing to the team.

tigertattie wrote:
Isn't Bresler still cabbaged?

tigertattie wrote:West coasters - They can dish it out but cannae take it

IanBru wrote:

tigertattie wrote:West coasters - They can dish it out but cannae take it

That's a wonderfully concise summary of Glasgow's 1872 Cup points scored/conceded record in recent years.

Well done young man!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

jimbopip wrote:So, the Tombola gets all emotional in this season of gluttony and goodwill and gives outings to the Coo, Jedi and Cap'n Kellock.
1. Shrek
2. Hall
3. Coo - I hope so, he'll be blowing out his arse after 30 mins!
4. Swinson
5. Cap'n (Naka and Jonnie will probably play but they could do with a rest unless Toonie wants to win convincingly at home and then give them a break for the dead rubber)
6. It's his jersey, he's mean and hungry and the best 6 Scotland have...Rob Harley.
7.Jedi ( it's his turn to put Roddy Grant in his place : every one else at the club has done it) not sure what you're on about here - Grant has been a consistently good performer in these fixtures. Seriously? I quite likw Grant as a player. But like the Jedi he's a really good, and loyal, club man. His international pretentions were shown up in one 1872 match at Firhill by John Barclay who completely owned him that day. In fact he's only just getting over it now, still sleeps with the nightlight on I've heard. By four o'clock on Saturday he'll be back to square zero.
8. Wison, Bluto needs a break is scared of Denton. OK, I take that back - even I can't seriously say that!
9. Henners Piecrust (Niko for impact)
10. Dancer (two easy run outs to get back his confidence) - Fine by me, will be interesting to see how much he chokes with his goal kicking this week!
11. Tenesee Tam
12. Dunbar if fit, Hornee or anyone who can run faster than Lightning McStrauss. Pity Bru's unavailable. That'll be any player in the squad then (including the injured)?
13. Richie Vee
14. DTH
15. Hogg or Murchie makes no difference they'll both be streets ahead of the opposition. I'll give you Hogg, but I don't think Murchie is any better than Tonks or Cuthbert

replacements; it doesn't really matter- it's not as if it'll be that close.

Don't you love the season of Peace on Earth and Goodwill To All?

Fighting talk has started already!

Edinburgh Rugby A ran out deserved victors against Glasgow Warriors A on the back pitches of BT Murrayfield on Monday night, winning 27-10.

Tries from Damien Hoyland and Tom Brown helped the home side build a 12-0 lead before Glasgow struck back through Rory Hughes and James Eddie to close to within two points at the break.

Number 8 Magnus Bradbury touched down at the beginning of the second half before fly-half Jade Te Rure increased the lead with a penalty. Hoyland’s second try sealed the win for the hosts.

Glasgow A started the game well and looked to pressurise the Edinburgh A line in the opening minutes. Good hands from back row forwards James Eddie and Will Bordill made sure Edinburgh A had to defend diligently before clearing their lines.

While the initial stages were dominated by Glasgow A, it was Edinburgh A who scored first. Making significant gains in Glasgow A territory, scrum half Sean Kennedy skilfully slipped a reverse pass to a speeding Damien Hoyland who skipped his way under the posts. Te Rure slotted the conversion to make it 7-0 after nine minutes played.

Edinburgh A were on the attack soon after and through a series of powerful charges from the forwards, found themselves back deep in Glasgow A territory. Glasgow A struggled to hold onto the ball in their own dead ball area, and Tom Brown gathered to score Edinburgh A’s second try. Te Rure was however unsuccessful with the conversion attempt.

Trailing 12-0, Glasgow A responded well and struck back within five minutes of Brown’s try. An interception from Gregor Young put the visitors on the front foot and a silky interplay between Fraser Lyle and Rory Hughes put the latter in for his side’s opening score. Lyle’s conversion fought valiantly against a strong wind but was unsuccessful.

Whilst the Edinburgh A defence was resolute in the opening quarter of an hour, it began to creak as Glasgow A piled on the pressure. Flank forward Will Bordill broke through a gap in the defence and burst up the field before feeding fellow back-row forward James Eddie. The Scotland Sevens player easily sped away from oncoming defenders to score the second Glasgow A try. The conversion missing, the score remained 12-10 at the break.

On-loan player Hugh Blake was then taken off with concussion after suffering a heavy knock to the head. The youngster was initially knocked out but was able to sit up before leaving the field.

Having being under pressure at the culmination of the first half, Edinburgh A started the second with an intensity akin to that of certain points in the opening 40 minutes. Early territory and possession counted for the home side as they stretched the Glasgow A defence to the limit. A series of penalties forced the visitors back even further and after another pummelling maul, number 8 Magnus Bradbury barged over the line for the third try. Te Rure added the simple extras from in front of the posts to extend the lead to 19-10.

Te Rure would make Glasgow A pay for indiscipline on 60 minutes as the new Kiwi recruit slotted a penalty to make the score 22-10.

Glasgow A’s defence began to tire and eventually could take no more as Edinburgh A spent the remaining 15 minutes in the opposition half. More content to play than to capitulate, Edinburgh A went in search of a fourth try. After innumerable phases, Hoyland bagged his second try of the night with a dive for the line in the corner. Te Rure missed the conversion but Edinburgh A were now out of sight.

Glasgow A battled till the end in search of another try of their own, but slight handling errors prevented the Warriors from achieving their goal. Staunch Edinburgh A defence forced several turnovers, despite indiscipline creeping into the closing stages. Nothing would come of any more phases of play and it was Edinburgh A who secured a 27-10 victory at a cold and blustery BT Murrayfield.

Coach Stevie Scott spoke of his delight post-match: “It was an important game for us tonight and we’re delighted with the win. We based our game on physicality and that’s what we asked for from the guys.”

“It’s great to have Damien back, he’s obviously done really well in the Sevens and he showed some great pace to score that try. It’s good that the Sevens is that tool to develop players and give them that confidence," Scott said.

Scott also spoke of the opportunity for some of his A players to make selection for the upcoming 1872 Cup games against Glasgow Warriors. Edinburgh Rugby make the trip to Scotstoun this Saturday for the first in the back-to-back matches with the return fixture on January 2nd at BT Murrayfield.

IanBru wrote:Glasgow have tended to provide a highlight reel for the previous A fixtures, certainly the first one.

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:I see Glasgow missed both conversions and never scored any points from the boot, didn't realise Finn Russell was playing....

RDW_Scotland wrote:

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:I see Glasgow missed both conversions and never scored any points from the boot, didn't realise Finn Russell was playing....

I do think Russell is a good kicker - and am confident he will become a great kicker - but his flakiness recently has been a worry.  

Stuart Barnes talks a lot of crap, but he was spot on when he said that Russell didn't seem to have a set routine, and commented that you didn't see Jonny Wilkinson and Ronan O'Gara dancing about with headphones on when they were doing kicks at goal during the warm up - you don't wear headphones during a game after all.

Of course he could answer all his critics and nail all his kicks against Edinburgh, but the last few weeks have certainly shown why Scotland need Laidlaw at 9 kicking goals just now.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I just think it shows that we have more depth in the far reaches of our squad. The Glasgow 1st XV and 2nd XV are comfortably better, world class by all accounts, but Edinburgh have some good young players coming through on the edges of the squad.

Here is first and second choice side by side, better player in bold.

Glasgow vs Edinburgh

1.Reid and Grant vs Dickinson and Sutherland
2.Brown and Hall vs Ford and Cochrane
3.Cusack and Murray vs Nel and Andress
4.Gray and Swinson vs Bresler and McKenzie
5.Nakawara and Kellock vs Gilchrist and B Toolis
6.Harley and Wilson vs Coman and Leonardi
7.Fusaro and Holmes vs Grant and Watson
8.Strauss and Ashe vs Du Preez and Denton - too close to call
9.Matawalu and Pyrgos vs H-C and Hart
10.Russell and Weir vs Tonks and Heathcote
11.DTH and Lamont vs Visser and Farndale
12.Dunbar and Downey vs Scott and Strauss
13.Bennett and Vernon vs Burleigh and Beard
14.Seymour and Maitland vs Fife and Brown
15.Hogg and Murchie vs Cuthbert and Bezzy

But, here's the rub. 3rd XVs:

1.Allen vs Dell
2.MacArthur vs Hilterbrand - too close to call
3.Welsh vs Berghan
4.Ryder vs A Toolis
5.Cummings vs Atkins
6.Spinks vs Ritchie
7.Bordill vs Blake
8.Eddie vs Bradbury - too close to call
9.McConnell vs Kennedy
10.Lyle vs Te Rure
11.Hughes vs McLennan
12.Fergusson vs Dominguez
13.Braid vs Dean
14.Jones vs Hoyland - too close to call
15.Bryce vs Howarth