1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture

by **RDW** Mon 22 Dec 2014, 9:43 am

First topic message reminder :

1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture - Page 3 Glasgow-warriors

Glasgow Warriors V Edinburgh Rugby

History of the competition (Credit to Hugh Barrow of the Scotsman)

Hugh Barrow wrote:“Tradition is very, very important,” said Alan Solomons. “It’s the oldest derby and to be involved is an absolute privilege.”

Like many good yarns, including the William Webb Ellis story, that certainly has a degree of truth. There was certainly no cup to be won on the 23 November 1872 at Glasgow Accies ground Burnbank when Scotland’s two largest cities first met under the then 20-a-side Rugby rules.

Two of the Glasgow team, Tom Chalmers and Willie Cross, had an intriguing decision to make that week – should they play against Edinburgh at rugby or play against England in the first-ever soccer international a week later at Hamilton Crescent?

They chose the former so Queens Park took on the Auld Enemy on their own. A year earlier Cross had goaled the first points recorded in the history of international rugby at Raeburn Place in the famous first Scotland v England international.

Between 1872 and 1995 there was still no cup to contest, just the honour of winning, and for generations who played that annual match in early December that sufficed whether it was played at Burnbank, Hamilton Crescent, Hampden Park, New or Old Anniesland or Hughenden in the west.

The first real inter-city cup was contested in the 1995-96 season’s match, when it was donated by the match sponsors, Slater, Hogg and Howison. It had the sponsor’s name on it and that remained for the following season, but for 1997-98 a new sponsor came on board – Inter-City Trains. So it became the Inter-City Cup.

This initiative was very much driven by the Glasgow District Committee of the day, including the likes of Ken Crichton from Stirling County and Andy Little of Glasgow High Kelvinside. By then the Inter-District Championship had become Scotland’s qualifying competition for Europe, and it is intriguing that qualification looks set to return next season.

However, in late March 1998 came the SRU decision to condense from four teams to two for European competition and that sounded the death knell for the Inter-District Cup. Glasgow and Edinburgh played a one-off match in 1998-99 and such was the popularity among supporters that the IDC was resurrected for season 1999-2000. That lasted only three seasons, ending in 2001-2002 and thereafter the Inter-City Cup languished in the Glasgow District office in Somerset Place for a few years.

It found a new life when the professional teams revived it in 2007 and has since become the major draw in the Scottish rugby calendar with crowds of close to 14,000 registered at Murrayfield and limited only to 10,000 in Glasgow, at the old Firhill venue, because of stadia capacity.

Scotstoun housed the 1997-98 fixture and was Glasgow’s first home in the Heineken Cup, though the home matches in the European Challenge Cup the previous season (the four Scottish teams’ first season in Europe) had been played at Hughenden.

What the players of bygone times would make of the international make-up of the current teams filling the jerseys is anybody’s guess but the influx of foreign players was commented on as long ago as 1891 when it was noted that Edinburgh fielded some “aliens”.

What remains constant is that those who now play in Glasgow and Edinburgh shirts wherever they hail from have the privilege to bear the cities’ names and that is not an honour to be taken lightly.

Previous results

2013-2014
Glasgow 37 - Edinburgh 34
Edinburgh 16 - Glasgow 20
Aggregate - Glasgow 57 - Edinburgh 50

2012-2013
Edinburgh 17 - Glasgow 21
Glasgow 23 - Edinburgh 14
Aggregate - Glasgow 44 - Edinburgh 31

2011-2012
Glasgow 17 - Edinburgh 12
Edinburgh 23 - Glasgow 23
Aggregate - Glasgow 40 - Edinburgh 35

2010 - 2011
Edinburgh 22 - Glasgow 15
Glasgow 25 - Edinburgh 12
Aggregate - Glasgow 40 - Edinburgh 34

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2009 - Edinburgh won!!! Yahoo

Fixtures

Glasgow V Edinburgh
Saturday 27th December
Scotstoun Stadium
14:40 kick off
Live on Sky Sports

Edinburgh V Glasgow
Friday 2nd January
Murrayfield Stadium
19:35 kick off
Live on BBC 2

Teams for Second Leg

Glasgow Warriors
1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture - Page 3 Gimli10

1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture - Page 3 Gimli10

15. Peter Murchie
14. Sean Maitland
13. Alex Dunbar
12. Peter Horne
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
9. Niko Matawalu

1. Gordon Reid
2. Dougie Hall
3. Jon Welsh
4. Jonny Gray
5. Al Kellock (Captain)
6. Ryan Wilson
7. Tyrone Holmes
8. Josh Strauss

16. Fraser Brown
17. Alex Allan
18. Euan Murray
19. Leone Nakarawa
20. James Eddie
21. Ali Price
22. Richie Vernon
23. Stuart Hogg

Edinburgh Rugby
1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture - Page 3 Taurie10

1872 Cup - Rugby's oldest derby fixture - Page 3 Taurie10

15 Jack CUTHBERT
14 Dougie FIFE
13 Matt SCOTT
12 Phil BURLEIGH
11 Tim VISSER
10 Greig TONKS
9 Sam HIDALGO-CLYNE

1 Alasdair DICKINSON
2 Ross FORD
3 John ANDRESS
4 Anton BRESLER
5 Ben TOOLIS
6 Mike COMAN (Captain)
7 Roddy GRANT
8 David DENTON

16 Neil COCHRANE
17 Rory SUTHERLAND
18 WP NEL
19 Fraser McKENZIE
20 Hamish WATSON
21 Sean KENNEDY
22 Tom HEATHCOTE
23 Sam BEARD

by highland_scot Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:06 pm

nickj wrote:Merry Xmas all - Is there any way of catching the game live without sky?

You have a PM... Merry Christmas!

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:10 pm

There's not much in this at all.

by EWT Spoons Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:11 pm

Do any of you lovely people have a link to the game?

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:12 pm

This is terrible stuff so far, might as well watch paint dry.

by EWT Spoons Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:12 pm

Do any of you lovely people have a link to the game?

by EWT Spoons Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:13 pm

Hmm not sure why that posted twice

by highland_scot Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:13 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:Hmm not sure why that posted twice

You've got mail!

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:19 pm

Edinburgh need to sort these mauls out - sack it early or 'so a Glasgow' and stand off it.

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:21 pm

Here comes Coman, what a player

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:24 pm

Good try from Glasgee

by cakeordeath Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:25 pm

Bressler seems determined to get himself a card

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:25 pm

Good try.

Edinburgh need to get the ball - they've barely had it!

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:26 pm

I told you Lamont just goes through them!

by highland_scot Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Good try.

Edinburgh need to get the ball - they've barely had it!

And when they do get it, they lose it at the next breakdown

by GLove39 Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:26 pm

Sean Lomu-nt!

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:28 pm

It's frustrating cause Glasgow have done bugger all when they've had the ball - this will give them a lot of confidence.

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:31 pm

Well I'd say that scoreline probably flatters Glasgow a bit, but in fairness to them they took the one chance they had.

6-3 would probably have been a fairer reflection of the half given how much of a turgid arm wrestle it has been.

I hope Glasgow don't run away with it.

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:31 pm

Wonder if Visser would have defended that try better than Brown did!

Glasgow clearly looking like the better conditioned team, so much for "proper pre season" Mr Solomons

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:31 pm

Glasgow looking good, they could really cut loose here. Edinburgh don't want to be chasing the game

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:33 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well I'd say that scoreline probably flatters Glasgow a bit, but in fairness to them they took the one chance they had.

6-3 would probably have been a fairer reflection of the half given how much of a turgid arm wrestle it has been.

I hope Glasgow don't run away with it.

To be fair, other than the penalty Edinburgh don't look like scoring. Glasgow have been applying the pressure. They are killing them at the breakdown

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:35 pm

That's the worry - where are Edinburgh going to get 10 points from?

There's absolutely no inventiveness in attack whatsoever!

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:42 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's the worry - where are Edinburgh going to get 10 points from?

There's absolutely no inventiveness in attack whatsoever!

It can always come from some Matawalu madness!

by EWT Spoons Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:54 pm

highland_scot wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Hmm not sure why that posted twice

You've got mail!

Thank you kindly

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 3:55 pm

Deliberately killing it in the 22 - yellow card time?

by highland_scot Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:01 pm

Didn't realise Ginger Tackle Monsters had capacity for injury!

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:03 pm

highland_scot wrote:Didn't realise Ginger Tackle Monsters had capacity for injury!

Think this is the 1st time i have seen him coming off injured :/

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:07 pm

Dickinson clearly giving a fresh Welsh a very hard time..

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:10 pm

Glasgow player handling on the deck on the lead up to that break!

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:11 pm

That wasn't even forward..

by IanBru Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:11 pm

Clancy... words fail me.

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:12 pm

That looked pretty tight on the replay. Not much of an advantage

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:15 pm

How many times do Edinburgh miss touch?

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:19 pm

Edinburgh are truly woeful with the ball - absolutely no attacking plan at all

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:21 pm

Kellock MOTM ? Shocked

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:21 pm

Crikey, another wild one from Niko. Hope Bath are watching!

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:25 pm

How Glasgow are only 10 points ahead given their possession and how truly awful Edinburgh have been is beyond me.

by GLove39 Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:26 pm

Well that was crap

by cakeordeath Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:26 pm

That was truly awful

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:27 pm

Well that was underwhelming..

by justified sinner Sat 27 Dec 2014, 4:55 pm

Poor game, should have stayed at home and watched on Sky rather than going through to Scotstoun.

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:02 pm

A workmanlike win for Glasgow without really lighting the afterburners. Take the points and move on.

What did we learn from that?

1. Glasgow are better than Edinburgh, well we knew that already

2. Edinburgh are developing a decent pack of forwards, they actually competed well, especially in the second half. That will pay dividends in the end

3. Tonks is a better full back than fly half, he is much better running from open field and that's where he should play. Probably is Scotland's number 2 fullback.

4. Matt Scott still a long way off his best, needs to improve prior to the 6 nations or he won't be in the side

5. If Duncan Weir could cut out the one howler per game, he would be challenging Finn Russell for the Scotland shirt

6. Sean Lamont is a big powerful winger and if you don't get him on the deck first time you will be in trouble.

7. Ben Toolis is developing into quite a prospect

8. Niko can still do some crazy stuff, good and bad!

9. Al Kellock was never MoM, but what the hell, it is xmas!

10. Hard to see Edinburgh winning next week, but we knew that already!

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:15 pm

Solomons is completed deluded - he said there was very little between the teams and we only lost due to individual errors.

What about the fact that we had very little ball, and when we did get it we turned it over straight away or did bugger all with it?

Our attack was completely nonexistent.

Was listening to the radio on the way home and all of Peter Wright, Tom English and - most importantly - Sean lineen said Scott (who was awful) needs to be moved to 12.

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:37 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Was listening to the radio on the way home and all of Peter Wright, Tom English and - most importantly - Sean lineen said Scott (who was awful) needs to be moved to 12.

Of course he needs to be back to 12 and Coman dropped too, you shouldn't be on the field just for "leadership abilities" ask Kellock.

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:41 pm

Although to be fair to Scott, as bad as he was I barely noticed Dunbar was playing!

The phase of play that completely summed up the ridiculousness of Solomons tactics was when we had a 10m attacking scrum, which was fed to heathcoat who then just kicked it into the Glasgow 22, which was then caught straight away and a mark called.

What did that achieve??

by justified sinner Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:44 pm

Can Edinburgh please sign a backs coach because Solomons and Scott clearly have no clue what the guys with the numbers 11 to 15 on their backs do. I'd be perfectly happy to have Moffat back, just don't let him near the forwards.

by justified sinner Sat 27 Dec 2014, 5:50 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:

Was listening to the radio on the way home and all of Peter Wright, Tom English and - most importantly - Sean lineen said Scott (who was awful) needs to be moved to 12.

Of course he needs to be back to 12 and Coman dropped too, you shouldn't be on the field just for "leadership abilities" ask Kellock.

And I noted that after the Glasgow try it was Fordy and Dents that were reading the riot act to the guys while Coman was standing blowing out of his proverbial.

by EWT Spoons Sat 27 Dec 2014, 6:28 pm

Thanks to Highland Scot I got to watch the game (thanks for the link once again, worked a treat), and i would probably agree with most of what BigGee has said. Although I think Tonks does offer us something from 10, he's good with ball in hand and willing to run with it. Sure this is a big bonus at FB, but at 10 it's pretty handy also. Plus I think we need him more at 10 anyway as he can still cover FB if necessary, but Cuthbert does a pretty decent job back there.

Still not sure if McInally will ever actually get a run at hooker, he came into the backrow again today rather than replacing ford when he went off. Has the positional move failed, or is Solomans just too reluctant to give him a chance in the position he's spent the last year or so training for?

Scott was pretty poor today, but in his defense he is being played out of position, sure that would have no impact on him knocking on, or missing passes, but I suspect given he probably needs to concentrate more on where he's supposed to be, he might not be focusing as much on the game. If you see what i mean.

Being realistic Glasgow should be upset they didn't get more from that game. They dominated it for large parts and to be only 10pts ahead is pretty poor considering what they were up against.

Hopefully going to get along to the return leg at fortress (cardboard) Murrayfield, where I hope we make Glasgow pay for not putting the game to bed.

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 7:51 pm

Edinburgh need to make up their minds about Tonks PDQ. Is he a FH or is he a FB. The way Cuthbert was pulled at 45 mins and the way Edinburgh improved once Heathcote was at FH and Tonks at FB makes me think that Solomon's has just made up his mind. If Heathcote starts next Friday then that will be it, experiment over.

To me that would be the right decision, Tonks is a better runner than Heathcote, better in open spaces though, not in tactical kicking and in game control. Heathcote is a decent option at FH and will hopefully continue to improve. Let him continue to develop, he is probably the best kicker in Scottish rugby and is a pretty accomplished all round FH.

Tonks is clearly coming back onto his game, but let him do that at FB, it is definitely his best position. Matt Scott I hope just needs game time and an injury free run, at the moment he is not in my Scotland team, though that may change if he can show his true form. I don't believe the inside/outside centre thing has anything to do with that. He has showed he can play well in both positions and they change from play to play anyway. He just needs some confidence and some form, hopefully both will be along soon.

by **RDW** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 7:53 pm

Problem is, if you don't pick Scott, who do you pick? Vernon? Lamont? Speed bump Horne?

Actually, Taylor is solid enough, but he's no Matt Scott.

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Dec 2014, 8:04 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Problem is, if you don't pick Scott, who do you pick? Vernon? Lamont? Speed bump Horne?

Actually, Taylor is solid enough, but he's no Matt Scott.

Don't get me wrong, I would pick a fit and on form Matt Scott, problem is he currently is neither. Dunbar is a shoe in, he had another very good game today and hopefully Bennett will be back soon as well, certainly by the 6N. Have you seen Saracens play recently, Taylor seems to be playing pretty much every game and is playing very well, he would do a job, better than Lamont. Sean looked great running over poor old Tom Brown today, but that won't really work at international level and Scotland will never prosper with him as a centre.

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