Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

Monkeyan wrote:Heard from a reliable source that Johnny Bell is off to join Mr Humphreys at the end of the season. Will leave a big gap in Ulster's coaching panel.

It might help close that big gap in the midfield defence though.

So the job for the boys notion is spreading to Gloucester now? Any chance Humph will lure Doak away??

Are we that lucky?

Seems like Bell leaving has been known for a while. We've signed a former Waratahs defence coach as Assistant Coach starting from the summer.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3224/Joe-Barakat-to-join-Ulster-Rugby.aspx

I think it'll be good to have another new voice in the coaching team. I haven't been terribly impressed with Ulsters defensive organisation in a number of games this year. Best of luck to Jonny Bell and thanks to him for a long service to Ulster Rugby

Are they all leaving this sinking ship or what?

I suppose this could be LK dictating the support staff to have them in place in time for his taking up the coaching ticket.

Looks like a fairly solid appointment and, crucially, he's not one of the old boys brigade.

I wonder will Townsend go to Gloucester. Rumour it was on the cards last year and bell was his preferred defensive hire

Quick question, Its out of hours so can't ring the ticket office. Does anyone know - do you have to pay for a ticket for a 2 year old at Ravers? We will be sitting, but he would probably sit on our knees and wouldn't need a seat of his own.

Ulster need three backrows. When you look at every position from 1 to 15 (assuming no injuries) Ulster have Test equivalent quality in every position except maybe Black who is close, Wilson at 8 and Cave at 13. The No.8 position is crucial to success and is often the biggest influence on a game.

Wilson is fine behind a dominant pack, but if they are on the back foot he is slow and consistently gets caught behind the gainline. I'd like to see Henderson starting there regularly, but that seems to be too big a stretch of the imagination for the selectors so Ulster will need to sign someone good.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster need three backrows. When you look at every position from 1 to 15 (assuming no injuries) Ulster have Test equivalent quality in every position except maybe Black who is close, Wilson at 8 and Cave at 13. The No.8 position is crucial to success and is often the biggest influence on a game.

Wilson is fine behind a dominant pack, but if they are on the back foot he is slow and consistently gets caught behind the gainline. I'd like to see Henderson starting there regularly, but that seems to be too big a stretch of the imagination for the selectors so Ulster will need to sign someone good.

I'd rather see Hendy staying in the row and continue to learn his trade. In fact I really hope to see him partnering O'Connor at some stage, I think they could gel extremely well. I wonder if that likely to happen any time soon. Would they be willing to try out an entirely new second row combination? I wouldn't bet on it.

clivemcl wrote:Quick question, Its out of hours so can't ring the ticket office. Does anyone know - do you have to pay for a ticket for a 2 year old at Ravers? We will be sitting, but he would probably sit on our knees and wouldn't need a seat of his own.

I can't speak for Ulster rugby Clive but when we took our lad to the first match at the Aviva we had to pay for a seat despite him being only about 6 months old at the time. They said health and safety regulations demanded every soul in the ground to have a ticket bought. Perhaps Ulster rugby show a little more reasoning.

No, I think Henderson is best at 6 if not lock. More nitty-gritty less carrying. Henderson is a good carrier but his best attribute is how he destroys rucks and mauls. He is both an athlete in the lineout and open field and a destructive force in the tight. All the attributes of a top class 5 or a 6, blessed to be equally good in either position. But at 8 he would be more an open-field runner and away from the tight work. It's not that its 'a stretch of the imagination'. It's using players in their best positions.

We should invest in poaching an Irish open side from another province and a top-class number 8 as soon as we can invest in a decent NIQ.

Ferris' career was cut short through him being a destructive force at rucks and mauls, and putting in massive hits. Henderson is the type of player who could go the same way.

He knows how to play 8 and he is a powerful carrier. Ulster need powerful carriers and if Hendo played 8 he would get more opportunity to do that than at 6 or lock. He hasn't played 8 for Ulster so he is an unknown quantity there, and therefore cannot be judged as to whether it is his best position of not. Like Ferris, Hendo has speed and that is not a commodity that is especially required at either lock or blindside, so not using his exceptional asset because he is tied up in rucks seems a waste of talent.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ferris' career was cut short through him being a destructive force at rucks and mauls, and putting in massive hits. Henderson is the type of player who could go the same way.

You could say that about literally any player in the back row. There's nothing to suggest Henderson is any more the sort of player that could go the same way than any other blindside flanker in world rugby. His exceptional asset is not his speed, but rather his physicality.

I'm sorry, I disagree and I don't see the point in going round in circles with you so we'll leave it

Gorgordze, Parisse, Vermeulen, Faletau, Billy V, Chouly, Reid, McCalman, Hughes, Baker, Pitman, Strauss... I'd say 8's need physicallity as well as speed.

So 8's normally need power and speed, Henderson has both ergo he would make a good 8 and use all his attributes where they could be most useful to the team.

Fine you don't agree about Hendo, so you must therefore agree that Ulster do need a new 8 for next season?

Yes, unfortunately Nick Williams still has a year to go on his contract. In a perfect world I would like to replace him with basically a better NIQ 8 and also poach a 7 off one of the other provinces. But I don't know if we will be able to do that.

I see Wilson and Williams as squad players. Henry and Henderson are Test quality and then there's Diack. Robbie is short of true Test class like Cave and Black but versatile and a good stand in. As you say we need a better NIQ 8, but where is this animal? Munster had to import first Stander and then Copeland despite having far more backrow candidates than Ulster. Leinster have unearthed Conan but are unlikely to let him go given his rapid rise.

Therein lies the crux of my argument for Henderson at 8, not only do I think he would be good there, but the quantity and quality of alternatives isn't inspiring.

No, I don't think Henderson would make a good 8. Everything that is good about his game is more in line with a 6.

I think you use him there, and then you do what you can at 8. In fact, Henderson at 6 and Diack at 8 would be a better use of resources than vice versa. Diack has great hands and ball skills, he's athletic, he gets about the pitch- he lacks the power of the best 8s but he's really just as good at 8 as 6. Henderson will be less effective at 8 than he would be at 6. He is a better carrier in the tight than he is in the wide channels. Henderson isn't as good at the open field big collisions as he is at the tight work of clearing rucks- he's good at everything, but the nitty-gritty of tight play is where he is already world class. Basically you want Henderson hitting as many rucks as possible as well as carrying. If you move him to 8, he can't do that as much. He can still carry from 6 but you just want him at the coalface. Thats his biggest strength, destroying rucks. He is going to generate a lot of quick ball for us. He can still carry the ball from 6 of course, but from 6 he'll be carrying in tighter channels where we need the hard yards which he is good at.

I've got to say you're simply not making sense. Like moving Payne to 13, moving Henderson to 8 would be one of those rare decisions that makes the whole team look worse. It's 5 or 6 for him.

Notch wrote:I've got to say you're simply not making sense. Like moving Payne to 13, moving Henderson to 8 would be one of those rare decisions that makes the whole team look worse. It's 5 or 6 for him.

Moving Payne to 13 was perfectly logical. Cave isn't good enough and Payne had done well there with the Blues - it was definitely worth a look. It's only in hindsight that it has been proven not to work. Continuing with the experiment I agree would be ridiculous.

There is no evidence to suggest that moving Henderson to a position he is familiar with and has key attributes for, but hasn't been tested at a higher level would make the "whole team look worse". So with no evidence, that would be a big stretch of the imagination.

Notch wrote:Yes, unfortunately Nick Williams still has a year to go on his contract. In a perfect world I would like to replace him with basically a better NIQ 8 and also poach a 7 off one of the other provinces. But I don't know if we will be able to do that.

It seems Sean Dougall is going to Pau now.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:I've got to say you're simply not making sense. Like moving Payne to 13, moving Henderson to 8 would be one of those rare decisions that makes the whole team look worse. It's 5 or 6 for him.

Moving Payne to 13 was perfectly logical. Cave isn't good enough and Payne had done well there with the Blues - it was definitely worth a look. It's only in hindsight that it has been proven not to work. Continuing with the experiment I agree would be ridiculous.

There is no evidence to suggest that moving Henderson to a position he is familiar with and has key attributes for, but hasn't been tested at a higher level would make the "whole team look worse". So with no evidence, that would be a big stretch of the imagination.

I concur - in fact if you look at the SH, in particular, players are encouraged to play multiple positions early on before specializing, especially in the backs so they gain better awareness of space and positional requirements - same with the back row, most of the best players can and have moved about e.g. McCaw, Ferris, O'Brien, Warburton - especially early in their careers. Look at Chris Henry.

Something Schmidt is keen on is players moving around - hence Zebo at 15, Marshall at 13, Ruddock at 7 - in the backs he likes players like McFadden,D.Kearney, Henshaw, Payne who have experience across different positions and those who haven't embraced this philsosphy and willingness to extend themselves beyond their comfort zones are down the pecking order. Gatland has a similar approach.

Payne playing 13 was a perfectly reasonable and logical decision, and still is. He's possibly our best back, when fit, and as with anyone else is entitled to express a preference of where they want to play. For me the only issue is that, with respect to Ludik (who's probably a better defensive and more orthodox 15), we haven't managed to fill the attacking void at the back left by Payne, when he is in the centre. It was a bit like Nacewa at Leinster who was always more influential at the back but less so when he accommodated Kearney by moving to the wing - at least initially until the side, and Nacewa, adapted to the change.

Notch wrote: Henderson will be less effective at 8 than he would be at 6. He is a better carrier in the tight than he is in the wide channels. Henderson isn't as good at the open field big collisions as he is at the tight work of clearing ruck

I don't agree, I think he's worked hard on his ruck play but his main asset is his carrying ability and athleticism - he's got quick feet, immense power and great pace for a big man - and good hands. Whether he plays at 5 or 6 you need him doing his bit at the break down but you also want him with the ball in his hands.

He doesn't have the engine to repeatably hit rucks and still be as effective in the loose - something that was an issue with Ferris too,who learned to pace himself to make the big impact plays. The fact that he's so effective taking slow ball and winning the collisions in tight areas doesn't mean thats were hes best suited to be - getting him into the wider channels is where he can do most damage.    

The only criticism I've heard about Henderson is his tight play at lock - the set pieces, mauls - where he's not as comfortable or effective as he could be - hence his preference to play in the back row for now. I can see him growing into the role in his late twenties or later but for now his pace is best suited to the back row.

Personally I'd drop O'Mahoney in a heart beat and play him at 6 for Ireland but don't tell the Munster boys.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes, unfortunately Nick Williams still has a year to go on his contract. In a perfect world I would like to replace him with basically a better NIQ 8 and also poach a 7 off one of the other provinces. But I don't know if we will be able to do that.

It seems Sean Dougall is going to Pau now.

Do you know if Paddy Butler is moving on? I've seen that rumoured. I'd take him as a squad player.

clivemcl wrote:Quick question, Its out of hours so can't ring the ticket office. Does anyone know - do you have to pay for a ticket for a 2 year old at Ravers? We will be sitting, but he would probably sit on our knees and wouldn't need a seat of his own.

We took our then 8 month old daughter to the Toulon game and didn't need a ticket for her. I had her in one of those slings that you attach to your chest. It may be different in seated areas, but there was certainly no suggestion of needing a separate ticket for the Memorial Terrace.

Paddy McCalister has now moved from France to Gloucester to join up with the ever growing Ulster presence there.

neilthom7 wrote:Paddy McCalister has now moved from France to Gloucester to join up with the ever growing Ulster presence there.

That's a bit dissapointing. I wonder did we try to get him back? Anyone know if he's  been playing well in France? I remember his injury was disappointing as he looked to have real promise. Are Black and Warwick better?

There seems to be some kind of red & white to cherry & white attraction going on.

Paddy had shown promise but hey, more than happy with the lads we have...... apart from D Fitz.

I finally get it! Humphreys is turning Ulster into a franchise. Think about it he is making Gloucester the English arm of the Ulster Franchise I mean they already have the right colors just in the wrong proportions and slowly he is integrating our players in. He's actually been working with Logan this whole time the crafty so and so

neilthom7 wrote:I finally get it! Humphreys is turning Ulster into a franchise.  Think about it he is making Gloucester the English arm of the Ulster Franchise I mean they already have the right colors just in the wrong proportions and slowly he is integrating our players in.  He's actually been working with Logan this whole time the crafty so and so

Maybe with Ben Morgan out for the season he'll want to take Big Nick and free up a NIQ spot

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I finally get it! Humphreys is turning Ulster into a franchise.  Think about it he is making Gloucester the English arm of the Ulster Franchise I mean they already have the right colors just in the wrong proportions and slowly he is integrating our players in.  He's actually been working with Logan this whole time the crafty so and so

Maybe with Ben Morgan out for the season he'll want to take Big Nick and free up a NIQ spot

Hopefully as this would be the best year to get someone new as the list of people in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who are out of contract at the end of this season is huge and some huge names on it as well.

neilthom7 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I finally get it! Humphreys is turning Ulster into a franchise.  Think about it he is making Gloucester the English arm of the Ulster Franchise I mean they already have the right colors just in the wrong proportions and slowly he is integrating our players in.  He's actually been working with Logan this whole time the crafty so and so

Maybe with Ben Morgan out for the season he'll want to take Big Nick and free up a NIQ spot

Hopefully as this would be the best year to get someone new as the list of people in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who are out of contract at the end of this season is huge and some huge names on it as well.

Maybe someone can have a word in Rorys ear and see if he'd put some money up to convince Vermeulen to come here since he doesn't do that for Pienaar

Heard a rumour that Tommy Bowe, Nick Williams and Jared Payne were off to Gloucester.......

...but as I started it there's probably not much truth in it ...

I hope a rabbit is pulled out of the hat, to justify Ulster missing out on Sean Dougall. Because there's a good Irish back row gone begging- off to France. So I hope we've got someone as good or better than that lined up because otherwise thats a missed opportunity.

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I finally get it! Humphreys is turning Ulster into a franchise.  Think about it he is making Gloucester the English arm of the Ulster Franchise I mean they already have the right colors just in the wrong proportions and slowly he is integrating our players in.  He's actually been working with Logan this whole time the crafty so and so

Maybe with Ben Morgan out for the season he'll want to take Big Nick and free up a NIQ spot

Hopefully as this would be the best year to get someone new as the list of people in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who are out of contract at the end of this season is huge and some huge names on it as well.

Maybe someone can have a word in Rorys ear and see if he'd put some money up to convince Vermeulen to come here since he doesn't do that for Pienaar

That curly haired little ............... so and so. He doesn't even pay for crepes and beer let alone a player.
Perhaps Kingspan could start shelling out extra for specially sponsored players. They could have the Kingspan logo......ah wait....

Anyone know if Tim Boys is IQ? A granny perhaps?

If he turns out to be quite good it may be annoying to see him leave with his paycheck and return to his gardening busniness!

Also, has Boys replaced Raaymakers? Or do we still have him when he returns from injury?

If we are signing an IQ open-side we should really be looking to Leinster. Surely one of the younger 7s will see that they can get game time as opposed to being stuck behind Sean O'Brien, Dominic Ryan, Jordi Murphy and Shane Jennings. Van Der Flier or Leavy would be fantastic signings. I can't really see it happening though.

Jennings is a squad player - if VdF and Leavy are behind him then they're not what Ulster need.
Ulster should be looking to have a Test quality understudy to Henry. So from that list they should be making offers to Ryan and/or Murphy.

Butler going to Pau with Dougall next season apparently.

Whats Niall Ronan at this weather?

Still convinced CJ Stander is an Ulsterman in waiting.

rodders wrote:Whats Niall Ronan at this weather?

Still convinced CJ Stander is an Ulsterman in waiting.

Personally I heard he is only called that until he gets to Ulster and then he will be called CJ Standerupfortheulstermen

No? I'll see myself out.

Isn't Ronan retired?

rodders wrote:Whats Niall Ronan at this weather?

Still convinced CJ Stander is an Ulsterman in waiting.

Niall Ronan had to retire through injury. He is S&C coach for Kildare GAA and I think he might also be coaching Boyne RFC.

CJ says to Ulster .....   Never, Never, Never, Never  .....

Just thinking about the Saffers, they usually are really good signings .... I don't think we've had a dud yet and most were top class (like Shaun Payne, Trevor Halstead, Wian, Jean de Villiers, BJ. Howard was very good as well ... hopeful he might come back.

Reading on the interweb that Chris Henry is back in training.

Sin - you're very civil this weather. How's life treating you? Looking forward to tomorrow? Earls at 13...

Don Alfonso wrote:Reading on the interweb that Chris Henry is back in training.

Sin - you're very civil this weather. How's life treating you? Looking forward to tomorrow? Earls at 13...

I'm always civil

Life is grand (a bit cold here)! I'm giggling away about Earls being selected at 13 ahead of Luke

Tsk, tsk Sin. And poor ould Dazza nowhere to be seen.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Reading on the interweb that Chris Henry is back in training.

Sin - you're very civil this weather. How's life treating you? Looking forward to tomorrow? Earls at 13...

I'm always civil

Life is grand (a bit cold here)! I'm giggling away about Earls being selected at 13 ahead of Luke  

Naaaaa Sin, you've got all soft. Not the fiesty Sin we've always known

neilthom7 wrote:

rodders wrote:Whats Niall Ronan at this weather?

Still convinced CJ Stander is an Ulsterman in waiting.

Personally I heard he is only called that until he gets to Ulster and then he will be called CJ Standerupfortheulstermen  

No? I'll see myself out.

Tough crowd.

rodders wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

rodders wrote:Whats Niall Ronan at this weather?

Still convinced CJ Stander is an Ulsterman in waiting.

Personally I heard he is only called that until he gets to Ulster and then he will be called CJ Standerupfortheulstermen  

No? I'll see myself out.

Tough crowd.

I know clearly I misjudged the audience, I thought we all had sophomoric humor, clearly it's just me lol

I can see Stander up for the ulstermen catching on at the kingspan yet Neil.

Hey Neil it was a great joke, we were all laughing over our keyboards

It is fate really isn't it, Stander up for the Ulstermen just says it all