Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

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Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

Don Alfonso wrote:Ironically, I can't see that.

I can only presume it is Ulster players bathing in the blood of children.

Confusingly it is the angle in which it looks most accidental, a much more innocuous looking incident than it seemed from the angle the referee looked at and was happy with. Why CN is complaining about the referee not seeing an angle which helps Wilsons case I have no idea.

Notch wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Ironically, I can't see that.

I can only presume it is Ulster players bathing in the blood of children.

Confusingly it is the angle in which it looks most accidental, a much more innocuous looking incident than it seemed from the angle the referee looked at and was happy with. Why CN is complaining about the referee not seeing an angle which helps Wilsons case I have no idea.

If the ref had seen that angle it would have quite clearly been a straight red.

Okay Sin.

And the argument that I'm making is that that's a very detailed aseesment of Hendo's shortcomings - shortcomings that have not prevented him currently being the Ireland bench lock option ahead of the also aviailable Tuohy and Mccarthy, both of whom you said he was behind - based on the throwaway comments of a man who hasn't played for Ireland in almost a year.

I think you're hoping they're true, as it would leave room for proud Munsterman Foley. Which is fine, just man up and be honest about it. It's the Munster way.

Speaking of which, your last comment brought tears to my eyes. Humble, proud, passionate Munster folk. Salt of the earth.

If only Ulster weren't riven with work-shy stars who refuse to go away and improve or focus, like that wastrel Trimble.

Sin é wrote:Geoff's comment was that Henderson was getting POC's international contract when he retires. He is not - Toner got it a few weeks ago and Ryan has one as well.

In Henderson's 15 caps, he has had 1 start as a lock, with 5 sub appearances, 2 of those recently when no one else was available. By bringing him to Argentina, maybe they hoped POC might inspire him to get the finger out. There was no point sending him to play with the Wolfhounds because he would have needed someone to call the lineout for him.

He has had 10 sub appearances as a flanker. POM, SOB & Heislip have all recently signed central contracts, so he isn't going to get one there.

You sound threatened, you're also inferring a lot about Henderson without much evidence. I wouldn't dispute that any player who wants to make it as an international lock needs to do a lot of homework, but I also would say that if Henderson can do that the physical gifts he has will elevate him above his competitors. He has a lot of things that can't be taught or gained in the gym, combined with hard work and willingness to learn his role inside out and he'll be a massive player for Ireland. I don't think its fair to imply based on one offhand comment from BOD that he's lazy etc. His comment is already out of date by a year for a start.

I don't think you compare him to O'Connell at this stage in his career, too early. He has to gain experience to get up to that level of thinking about the game. Give him time to work that side of it out. Right now he's all brute force.

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B_NRBBNXAAABYcU.mp4

Raw physicality being such a unique commodity in Irish forwards, it's no surprise the IRFU have made retaining his services a high priority regardless of his position.

Don Alfonso wrote:Okay Sin.

And the argument that I'm making is that that's a very detailed aseesment of Hendo's shortcomings - shortcomings that have not prevented him currently being the Ireland bench lock option ahead of the also aviailable Tuohy and Mccarthy, both of whom you said he was behind - based on the throwaway comments of a man who hasn't played for Ireland in almost a year.

I think you're hoping they're true, as it would leave room for proud Munsterman Foley. Which is fine, just man up and be honest about it. It's the Munster way.

Speaking of which, your last comment brought tears to my eyes. Humble, proud, passionate Munster folk. Salt of the earth.

If only Ulster weren't riven with work-shy stars who refuse to go away and improve or focus, like that wastrel Trimble.

If either POC or Toner got injured, I'd contend that both of those players would be ahead of Henderson to start for Ireland as a lock.

Henderson is a terrific bench option because he can cover both positions.

As for my comments on Foley - I wouldn't have mentioned him except Geoff made the comment that ''O'Connor, Foley, Kearney not yet ready to step up to the mark''.

I'd responded that: ''Foley is way ahead of Henderson in his development as a lock (including calling the lineouts). ''

I'd still contend that. Henderson can catch up though if he wants to.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Yeah, I wouldn't have Henderson as a leading lineout option but to be honest if either of our first choice locks is injured- they both are excellent organisers and callers at the lineout so that wouldn't impede him so much. O'Connell and Toner currently interchange in terms of calling it.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Geoff's comment was that Henderson was getting POC's international contract when he retires. He is not - Toner got it a few weeks ago and Ryan has one as well.

In Henderson's 15 caps, he has had 1 start as a lock, with 5 sub appearances, 2 of those recently when no one else was available. By bringing him to Argentina, maybe they hoped POC might inspire him to get the finger out. There was no point sending him to play with the Wolfhounds because he would have needed someone to call the lineout for him.

He has had 10 sub appearances as a flanker. POM, SOB & Heislip have all recently signed central contracts, so he isn't going to get one there.

You sound threatened, you're also inferring a lot about Henderson without much evidence. I wouldn't dispute that any player who wants to make it as an international lock needs to do a lot of homework, but I also would say that if Henderson can do that the physical gifts he has will elevate him above his competitors. He has a lot of things that can't be taught or gained in the gym, combined with hard work and willingness to learn his role inside out and he'll be a massive player for Ireland. I don't think its fair to imply based on one offhand comment from BOD that he's lazy etc. His comment is already out of date by a year for a start.

I don't think you compare him to O'Connell at this stage in his career, too early. He has to gain experience to get up to that level of thinking about the game. Give him time to work that side of it out. Right now he's all brute force.

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B_NRBBNXAAABYcU.mp4

Raw physicality being such a unique commodity in Irish forwards, it's no surprise the IRFU have made retaining his services a high priority regardless of his position.

Threatened? How in the name of god could I be threatened by Henderson. Lots of people wonder why he hasn't been starting because of his great physical attributes. Its hardly surprising that questions are being asked and reasons given. You seriously think BOD isn't in the know of what is going on in Camp Ireland? His comment was not offhand. It was considered.

I don't think the implication was that Henderson was lazy. It could be just that everything rugby wise has come to him easy so he isn't used to having to graft very hard to really reach the top - he has no experience of doing that todate - that is not an unusual situation for gifted sports people. At this stage, Henderson could just as likely be the next Neil Francis - wonderfully talented but wasting it.

Ulster may have a high priority retaining his services, but I don't think the IRFU are. Its not as if Ulster have a huge number of players on central contracts compared to Leinster for instance (who will have 6 players next season).

ROG's opinion of Henderson:

Iain Henderson has had impressive cameos against both Italy and France but there’s no way you’d start him, because it is far more beneficial to have him coming off the bench than Devin Toner, due to how they both play. Devin does the donkey work in the lineout, maul and the tackle, but Henderson is naturally faster and more explosive. You’d have to wonder could Henderson manage that for 80 minutes at Test level; at the moment Toner is being told to go hard and get out when the legs go, with Henderson coming in for 20 minutes to go gung-ho and wreak havoc.

If toner or POC goes down it's bloody obvious that Henderson would be next in line. If both were down he would be in but probably paired with a Tuohy or Ryan ideally. 

Henderson is Ireland's 3rd choice lock unless Ryan or Tuohy displace him

Out of interest, what is the youngest a player has called lineouts for their international team?

Leaving aside all the toing-and-froing about Hendo, are there many 23 yerar olds that call their international team's lineouts? How much is that down to experience? Hours spent playing in lineouts etc? Who calls the England lineouts?

While I disagree with Sin (let's diplomatically leave that there), until Ryan proves he's back to his best, the third and fourth choice locks are Tuohy and Henderson. Actually, out of the two, I'd want Tuohy calling the lineout. Simply, he's much more experienced at it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Nick Williams' illegal clearout has ended Aaron Shingler's season.

No citing though.

Joke league.

I've asked you before. Why are you not commenting on a similar incident later on in the game where a Scarlets player leads with the shoulder to clear out Clive Ross?

I can't think of anyone particularly young calling the lineout as you would usually find that a young player would be put in with some old hardened warhorse who called the shots. In many cases as well, a lock maybe the captain.

POC would have been about 24 when he started internat. lineout calls (going on who his partners were). Up to then he partnered Mick Galwey or Gary Longwell.

I've no idea who calls the England lineout.

Standulstermen wrote:And just think, if you guys put a clearly obvious troll,like chunky on ignore instead of constantly quoting him the rest of us wouldn't have to read his drivel

I read this after quoting him, Stand. Duly noted!

From this clip it actually looks like a Scarlets player kicks yer man considerably harder than Luke Marshall did (and equally accidentally);

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31738456?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Crazy stuff.

Notch wrote:From this clip it actually looks like a Scarlets player kicks yer man considerably harder than Luke Marshall did (and equally accidentally);

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31738456?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Crazy stuff.

That also looks like Marshall could be looking at a few weeks, as he turned his boot to catch him?? I know slo-mo making it look a heap worse than it was. Guess it depends on who is on the panel, and if they have common sense or not.

No, I doubt he will be banned- as I've said many times you can only be banned for a red card offence. I think if you take into consideration the fact he's turning and running backwards you'd be hard pressed to get a penalty offence out of that.

Missed the game but how on earth did Ulster won that? From what i can see they could have had 3 players red carded. Was it a ill tempered game or what.

VinceWLB wrote:Missed the game but how on earth did Ulster won that? From what i can see they could have had 3 players red carded. Was it a ill tempered game or what.

No, it was not an ill-tempered game at all. Have you watched the clips? If you think there were three potential red cards I don't think you could have. All three so-called 'incidents' are notable for the lack of reaction from the Scarlets players... because they all add up to nothing.

It will be the mother of all farces if we have bans from this. I've taken the medicine over the last year when Tom Court, Declan Fitzpatrick and Stuart McCloskey got bans because they fully did deserve them. But these... these are just so unbelievably persnickety and trivial that even if they are cleared its a real waste of everyones time.

To me it looks like he flicks his foot out to try and dislodge the ball and misses

Well as a Scarlet fan I would hope neither are banned as ironically the team to benefit most would be our biggest competition for 6th spot and a CC place. Ben Whitehouse tried hard to speed the game up and get rid of the time spent standing around doing nothing, the issue for me hear is its part of a learning curve for an inexperienced referee as had these been looked at properly during the game then potentially we would not be looking at a citing farce again now, a penalty for each during the game would IMHO of been sufficient punishment.

VinceWLB wrote:Missed the game but how on earth did Ulster won that? From what i can see they could have had 3 players red carded. Was it a ill tempered game or what.

I think you're watching the wrong sport.

The citing commissioner was John Cole of the IRFU. Let this be a demonstration that when an Irish official is incompetent it hurts us too.

Notch wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Missed the game but how on earth did Ulster won that? From what i can see they could have had 3 players red carded. Was it a ill tempered game or what.

No, it was not an ill-tempered game at all. Have you watched the clips? If you think there were three potential red cards I don't think you could have. All three so-called 'incidents' are notable for the lack of reaction from the Scarlets players... because they all add up to nothing.

It will be the mother of all farces if we have bans from this. I've taken the medicine over the last year when Tom Court, Declan Fitzpatrick and Stuart McCloskey got bans because they fully did deserve them. But these... these are just so unbelievably persnickety and trivial that even if they are cleared its a real waste of everyones time.

I have seen the 3 incidents Notch.

For me Williams could have been given a yellow on another day. What was Wilson trying to do with his arm apart from getting Barclay? And as pointed out what was Marshall trying to do by turning his foot like that? I'm afraid none of these are accidental.

After further review it looks like as if both players tried to dislodge the ball from Scarlet's hands. Still reckless and should be dealt with accordingly.

notch, reckless contact with the boot to the head can be grounds for a ban, and has.

2ndtimeround wrote:Well as a Scarlet fan I would hope neither are banned as ironically the team to benefit most would be our biggest competition for 6th spot and a CC place. Ben Whitehouse tried hard to speed the game up and get rid of the time spent standing around doing nothing, the issue for me hear is its part of a learning curve for an inexperienced referee as had these been looked at properly during the game then potentially we would not be looking at a citing farce again now, a penalty for each during the game would IMHO of been sufficient punishment.

+1 to that. Not sure about the Tahi head incident, like I said all goes on who looks at it and how they judge it.

VinceWLB wrote:For me Williams could have been given a yellow on another day. What was Wilson trying to do with his arm apart from getting Barclay? And as pointed out what was Marshall trying to do by turning his foot like that? I'm afraid none of these are accidental.

Wilson was trying to come around to sack George Earle to stop the maul forming. Marshall is the biggest farce of all as he was turning around to get back onside, his motion was completely natural AND a Scarlets player actually kicks the same player considerably harder in the face moments later!

People are not looking at this through the lens of common sense, they are looking at some clips (some in slow motion) knowing there was a citing and finding a justification for it. Confirmation bias at work. Citings are for red card offences- how can any of those be a RED card? Most are at the level where you are arguing about whether or not it should be a penalty.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:notch, reckless contact with the boot to the head can be grounds for a ban, and has.  

Reckless contact with the boot to the head is like when a ball is in the ruck and someone goes in to kick it out and kicks the players head instead- hard. Not intentional, but it's a hard kick to the head. Thats 'reckless' because it can cause injury. It's not barely clipping a players face when running backwards. There was almost no contact there. And it's ludicrous, because it's immediately succeeded by something I would not see as a citing but is closer to what could be called reckless and more meaningful in terms of contact made. And thats ignored because it was from a teammate.

If you have any empathy for the game at all, you're going to come down on the side of realising that these things happen. They are well below the threshold for reckless play because no-one was put in danger. I may sound frustrated, but thats because time will be spent actually reviewing this nonsense. Regardless of the outcome, these citings are damaging to the reputation of the sport.

Well time will tell, but doesn't it have to be a red card offence to be cited? So obviously, other than what people have said on interweb forums, someone in the position to cite also believed it was reckless

Also if there was contact and Tagi went off with a head injury then it was either an intentional kick, which it obviously wasn't, or recklessness with regards to where his foot was. If he gets banned that will be what it is for.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Well time will tell, but doesn't it have to be a red card offence to be cited?  So obviously, other than what people have said on interweb forums, someone in the position to cite also believed it was reckless

Hence my unbridled shock, and contempt for these citings.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also  if there was contact and Tagi went off with a head injury then it was either an intentional kick, which it obviously wasn't, or recklessness with regards to where his foot was.  If he gets banned that will be what it is for.

I agree, but I think they have the wrong kick, because he's barely touched and then a Scarlets player comes in and accidentally kicks him considerably harder. Which is much more likely to have caused any injury.

That's quite possible but as you've said people are looking at the videos, especially that one, trying to determine what the citing is for. And that's what the panel will be doing. And they too will have the slow motion footage to scrutinise, so it will all come down to who is on the panel, what 'message' they want to send out etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:That's quite possible but as you've said people are looking at the videos, especially that one, trying to determine what the citing is for.  And that's what the panel will be doing.  And they too will have the slow motion footage to scrutinise, so it will all come down to who is on the panel, what 'message' they want to send out etc.

Well I'm sure if it's the same citing panel that dealt with McCloskey, they will treat both as low end offences. Then make some excuse to add a few weeks to each, teach us a lesson, and then take a week off each to demonstrate how lenient they are.

I can't help but wonder if these citing are more to do with IRFU officials trying to look impartial after all the furore surrounding the Scarlet's v Munster game, will be interesting to see the quality of the officiating at PYS against Leinster this Saturday as Clancy will obviously be in the spotlight.

2ndTime, gotta say Duncan Williams stamp was infinitely worse than any incident in the Ulster v Scarlets game, and was not cited, so maybe. Although the words 'conspiracy theory' are soon to get fired your way.

It just seems incredibly unlikely.

sin e wrote:Henderson has started one international game as a lock v. Argentina. He isn't in the reckoning as a starter lock for Ireland until he takes it seriously. He is a very talented player. Hope he doesn't waste it.

Just like Zebo!

No wait, you argued on another thread that Joe finally worked Zebo out, maybe Joe just needs to work Henderson out!

Not a conspiracy, just seems like an overreaction from officials who might feel their neutrality is in question. Far worse offences than those 2 escape punishment and are not cited later.

rapidsnowman wrote:

sin e wrote:Henderson has started one international game as a lock v. Argentina. He isn't in the reckoning as a starter lock for Ireland until he takes it seriously. He is a very talented player. Hope he doesn't waste it.

Just like Zebo!

No wait, you argued on another thread that Joe finally worked Zebo out, maybe Joe just needs to work Henderson out!

Very good 

sin e wrote:Henderson has started one international game as a lock v. Argentina. He isn't in the reckoning as a starter lock for Ireland until he takes it seriously. He is a very talented player. Hope he doesn't waste it.

Anyone who is stupid enough to think Henderson doesn't take his career seriously is being so stupid they cant be taken seriously themselves

Bye Bye Sin e toodle off now

For the record I dont thing Henderson will start, all, or maybe even the majority of games, for Ireland next year but Foley sure as hell wont.

As I said early there are only 4 shows in town next year - Toner, Tuohy, Henderson and if fit Ryan.

Foley, Kearney are next in line, and in case of emergency, McCarthy as an old hand.
The following year de Merwe will be gone and Henderson will be both a regular Ulster and Ireland lock.

Henderson has 3 years on Foley, 6 on Toner, 7 on Tuohy and 8 on Ryan and a hell of a lot more talent than any of them.

Looked up Nagle to indulge Sin e - the man has played no rugby this year, he only started 2 games for Munster the year before and only played in 2 games for Newcastle in the same year.
There are, as yet, no indication of him playing top flight rugby next year.
He is 26+ - sorry he may get a contract with the likes of Newcastle, Connacht or a championship side but international rugby is beyond him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Nick Williams' illegal clearout has ended Aaron Shingler's season.

No citing though.

Joke league.

I've asked you before. Why are you not commenting on a similar incident later on in the game where a Scarlets player leads with the shoulder to clear out Clive Ross?

Have you got a clip, or a time of the incident on the match clock?

Says here that the citing commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (wru)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392?live_variant=nonjs&refresh=1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392

Geoff, Nagle's gone. Doing something entirely different in the States.

And it's actually closer to four years between Hendo and Foley.

So... erm.. aren't we playing the Dragons on Sunday?

Diack in for Wilson if he's banned.

Cave to 12 and Ludik to 13 if Marshall's banned. Nelson at FB.

Otherwise, as you were.

Could be Cave 12 Allen 13 Scholes on the wing, although I think your suggestion is more likely

Still think Marshall could be available - that really was a nothing incident.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Says here that the citing commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (wru)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392?live_variant=nonjs&refresh=1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392

Not sure chunky. It also says that Dudley Phillips was the ref.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Says here that the citing commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (wru)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392?live_variant=nonjs&refresh=1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/31116392

Not sure chunky. It also says that Dudley Phillips was the ref.

Yeah I think it's wrong.

The Pro 12 site has Cole as the Citing Commisioner.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16754.php

geoff998rugby wrote:

sin e wrote:Henderson has started one international game as a lock v. Argentina. He isn't in the reckoning as a starter lock for Ireland until he takes it seriously. He is a very talented player. Hope he doesn't waste it.

Anyone who is stupid enough to think Henderson doesn't take his career seriously is being so stupid they cant be taken seriously themselves

Bye Bye Sin e toodle off now

I didn't say he doesn't take his career seriously. I'm saying that if he is going to be Paul O'Connell's replacement, he is going to have to take doing the detail, analysis etc. a lot more serious. He will be fine as a number 2 or backrower. If he put the effort that Toner has put in, he could end up being better than Paul O'Connell.