How can the Pro12 go the next level?

Regardless of what anyone says about the quality of the league, I believe it is the best but I'm biased, the whole product seems to be suffering and there isn't the cash to prevent the exodus of players to France and England. This article sums it up better than I ever could so if you wish give it a read http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/iain-morrison-cap-won-t-stop-celtic-exodus-1-3670331


I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that the article predicts, the Irish are suffering a momentary blip but still have three quality teams, the Welsh seems to be curbing the exodus, Glasgow are on the verge of outgrowing Scotstoun and Edinburgh are showing signs of improvement (and I think the academies in Scotland could make a real difference long term) . The less said about the Italians currently the better.

The options I would propose are that we add in another Welsh team and another Scottish team and remove the Italians. They can't be much worse and they'd result in more derbies which would help the broadcasters, make it more tribal and increase interest. The negatives are that it would damage Italian rugby and the Italians are unlikely to agree with it, what I would suggest alternatively is that we introduce a new league and drop down to a ten team top division meaning fewer games in the top division allowing smaller squads with higher quality players and competitive games all year round and start a second division and introduce a play off between top team from Division 2 and the bottom from Division 1 so we don't end up with a London Welsh situation

The problem is that some english and french clubs run huge losses and this money bumps up the price of players. I think the pro 12 is fine right now. the next step would IMO be a pro 12 division 2. This would allow the welsh to go back to 8 top teams and maybe stop the infighting, Scotland run a couple of development teams and so on. However there simply isn't the money there.

personally I would outlaw deficit funding by clubs worldwide. this would help the english and french clubs who have stable finances as well as the pro 12 teams

123456789 wrote:

The options I would propose are that we add in another Welsh team

Lookout!

The PRO12 should be encouraging additional countries to join rather than getting rid of a big potential earner like Italy.

France were useless at rugby and it took them quite a few years to develop in the amateur era before they joined the 5N. Italy have a big potential market and should be encouraged rather than dropped.

I'd like to see one professional team join from say Romania, Georgia, Portugal and Spain. These countries would be funding mostly their Test players so should have a decent standard fairly quickly and they have the potential to increase the TV market. I'd have four league pools of four teams - 1 Irish, 1 welsh, 1 Scottish/Italian and 1 new country in each. So home and away that's 6 games each. The top two would progress to an elite league of 8 and the bottom 8 would form a lower league. Each league would play home and away so that's another 14 games. Finally I'd take the top 7 from the elite league plus the winner from the second league and have quarters, semis and a final to crown a champion.

So more countries giving an increased potential market but a step up in competition as the season progresses.

An option is to have four conferences where A plays B and C plays D home and away - giving 8 games per team first up, but then the elite league qualifiers don't play each other again in that league as their results carry forward. So still the same number of games per season 8 + 12 + playoffs.

Pro12 can go to the next level by focusing on quality of play and being local clubs with local lads. See the international test players of tomorrow! See high tempo, quality rugby. That has to be the aim and that kind of focus can only improve the Pro12 and the respective national teams.

Remember it is still a very young league compared to the others.

Get better refs.

TJ wrote:The problem is that some english and french clubs run huge losses and this money bumps up the price of players.  I think the pro 12 is fine right now.  the next step would IMO be a pro 12 division 2.  This would allow the welsh to go back to 8 top teams and maybe stop the infighting, Scotland run a couple of development teams and so on.  However there simply isn't the money there.

personally I would outlaw deficit funding by clubs worldwide.  this would help the english and french clubs who have stable finances as well as the pro 12 teams

We have nowhere near the resources to run 8 teams and never have in the professional era. At best we could muster one extra team, hopefully one from North Wales, and Scotland would struggle to get a third team; ideally you Scots should be pushing for 4 too. We won't be able to put out that extra team for another 10 years. You guys should look to revive the Borders. I do like the idea of a Pro12 Div2, it's either that or A teams (which Ireland already have).

It's a rubbish product from top to bottom. Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.

Ok - welsh teams can leave if they want. I fail to understand their tribalism and hatred that fuels some of the welsh fans.

I like the idea of including romanian Georgian and similar teams. Again that would help find enough teams for a second division

Shifty wrote:It's a rubbish product from top to bottom.  Welsh fans have voted with their feet already.  

Can you back that up with attendance figures?

All I know is according to some Welsh the league is sh!t and dragging them down. Not the other way around!

The Italians, Scots and Irish just get on with it and have been making progress.

To answer the op, its all relative.

The pro 12 is doing fine considering how new it is compared to the more established leagues. The French league has exploded in popularity and the English got a nice payday from BT. Whether that's a one off remains to be seen.

People forget that despite losing some top end players, there are dozens of South Africans, Kiwis and Aussies in the pro 12. In other words the pro 12 can financially compete and outdo super rugby sides. As long as that stays the same, English and French will target super rugby players far more than pro 12 players because they're cheaper.

The Saint wrote:Get better refs.

How?

Pro rugby is about money. With it there are options without it none. We are fortunate in Wales to be able to participate in a league with Ireland, Scotland and Italy otherwise pro rugby here would have died.

IMO the league is not as strong as the pro leagues in England or France but it is improving. Pushing on to the "next "level involves a lot of hard work and working together with the other rugby unions to improve and promote the product. Any idea that in Wales we can somehow go back to a competitive internal league is nonsense.

The Saint wrote:Get better refs.

Got that in before me, but it is right. It is about time that we got refs of a higher standard in from another country until refs form the Celtic countries get better, why should the Pro12 be used as a nusery for beginner refs ? Some of the referees in our league are a joke.

Golden wrote:

The Saint wrote:Get better refs.

How?

It's not my job to decide how.

Better refs, better games better product... Bar that, they seem to be doing all they can to make this league a decent one. A second division is an interesting idea.

But no matter what we apply to the league to improve it, I can't see us compete at the level of expenditure in England and France.

Their top teams change out first selection well known international players for bench players of the same calibre.

I know France has little restriction on wages and in England apparently a number are ignoring their cap, (PRL cap is £2M higher than ours plus a marquee signed player not included in the cap).but still if we try to compete we will send the game broke.

How do the Gp12 teams look to up their level for next years Euro cup?

Thry have to look within and find more talent. We can't afford to buy in.

I see the final will be at a nominated ground from this year onwards

It will be a Ravenhill this year.

From that I would assume the final will rotate between Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys and Edinburgh because none of the others meet the 18000 limit

LordDowlais wrote:

The Saint wrote:Get better refs.

Got that in before me, but it is right. It is about time that we got refs of a higher standard in from another country until refs form the Celtic countries get better, why should the Pro12 be used as a nusery for beginner refs ? Some of the referees in our league are a joke.

if you think French refs are any better then you would be very surprised. Some of them make Clancy look like the messiah of rugby union rules.
It seems like a general problem accross most countries (cant speak for England though), more money should be thrown at developping pro refs and entincing more ex players to take that job. even if it is paid by the leagues themselves. everyone would win from it .

geoff998rugby wrote:I see the final will be at a nominated ground from this year onwards

It will be a Ravenhill this year.

From that I would assume the final will rotate between Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys and Edinburgh because none of the others meet the 18000 limit

That is a joke, lets ay for instance, if Blues and Scarlets get to a final, do you honestly see 18000 fans going to watch it ? Even if they chose Swansea for the final. The only thing I can see with this is the Irish provinces will always get their final in Ireland no matter who they are playing.

That is a stupid idea. Playing for home advantage in the Final is one of the main incentives for finishing top of the league.

Notch wrote:That is a stupid idea. Playing for home advantage in the Final is one of the main incentives for finishing top of the league.

If the Blues finished top of the league, and Ulster were second, do you honestly believe that the Liberty Stadium would be a sell out ?

For me it should be the top of the league side who decide where they play the final, Blues could potentialy use the MS for instance.

LordDowlais wrote:
If the Blues finished top of the league, and Ulster were second, do you honestly believe that the Liberty Stadium would be a sell out ?

You would like to hope so, if you can't get your fan base mobilised for a final when can you? I think Ulster would pretty much sell their 10000 tickets, so it would be an appropriate size of venue.

I don't see how the Liberty Stadium is a problem, but then Blues should choose a venue that is 4 times its size.

Agree with the OP - ditch the Italians, who've had long enough to get their act together, and see if the Welsh and Scots can stump up an extra team each - although 4 Scottish sides would be preferable.

Better refs as has been said.

I think the run in should be pretty competitive for the top 6 and hopefully the WRU can tie in a few more top Welsh players.

A few more marquee overeas players would be a boost to the league as well but that will be difficult with the money in France and England for the forseeable future.

Sky and Guinness have done a pretty good job but the failure of the sides in the RCC is a blow to the credibility and profile of the league. Hopefully Leinster can fly the flag for a few more games.

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:That is a stupid idea. Playing for home advantage in the Final is one of the main incentives for finishing top of the league.

If the Blues finished top of the league, and Ulster were second, do you honestly believe that the Liberty Stadium would be a sell out ?

You would like to hope so, if you can't get your fan base mobilised for a final when can you? I think Ulster would pretty much sell their 10000 tickets, so it would be an appropriate size of venue.

How big is Ravenhill anyway, I know they are getting work done on it, but is it over 18000 ? Also I bet the Blues would get about 5 to 6 thousand at most in Swansea.

Yes.

Ravenhill capacity is just over 18,000

As to a Cardiff v Ulster final in Swansea - Ulster would get 10,000 over I reckon.
We took 8,000+ to Edinburgh for the Celtic Cup Final when our support was half what it is now

It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

The Pro12 has run it's course with the way it is at the moment. Time for something new.

Every team plays for a potential final in front of their home crowd which is the reward of a long tough season. Announcing the final venue in advance kind of defeat the whole point of playing the regular season.

At worse it should have been announced before the season started.

Announcing it now is strange which is why I think there is something else begind this... Could be the sponsors or SKY pushing this?

Has the qualification/seeding process for the new European Cup not helped already?

I record and watch a number of Pro12 games and, to a neutral, the commitment at the breakdown and the tackle from most teams has been way better. The quality of the back line play has been a mixed bag for me. Lots of dropped passes and inaccurate passes.

Overall it's improved imo.

Just get those Italians up to speed.

There was talk of us Welsh going back to our old league system and using our regions in Europe, I laughed that of as a stupid idea at first, but as things keep going the way they are, it is starting to sound more appealing now.

Does the nominated stadium have to be an Pro12 stadium or could it be Ibrox/ Hampden/ Celtic Park in Glasgow for instance?

123456789 wrote:Does the nominated stadium have to be an Pro12 stadium or could it be Ibrox/ Hampden/ Celtic Park in Glasgow for instance?

I'm guessing that's the only way Glasgow could have a bid in there.

LordDowlais wrote:There was talk of us Welsh going back to our old league system and using our regions in Europe, I laughed that of as a stupid idea at first, but as things keep going the way they are, it is starting to sound more appealing now.

How would that work?

123456789 wrote:Does the nominated stadium have to be an Pro12 stadium or could it be Ibrox/ Hampden/ Celtic Park in Glasgow for instance?

I don't think so. The RDS has been used several times and IRFU/Leinster don't own it.

VinceWLB wrote:It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

Don't forget Munster. It's much easier to get to Belfast from Glasgow than Limerick or Cork.

Notch wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

Don't forget Munster. It's much easier to get to Belfast from Glasgow than Limerick or Cork.

You keep saying that as if Glasgow have a massive following, they don't, they get ok crowds at home, but hardly any of their fans travel to watch them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:There was talk of us Welsh going back to our old league system and using our regions in Europe, I laughed that of as a stupid idea at first, but as things keep going the way they are, it is starting to sound more appealing now.

How would that work?

I don't know, I just here'd Eddie Butler saying it to Jonathan Davies a few weeks back. Perhaps we could have the season, then have a sort of regional comp at the end to see who should qualify for Europe the following season.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

Don't forget Munster. It's much easier to get to Belfast from Glasgow than Limerick or Cork.

You keep saying that as if Glasgow have a massive following, they don't, they get ok crowds at home, but hardly any of their fans travel to watch them.

And thats somehow relevant in your mind?

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It can improve but not with announcements like the one we got today.

What a kick in the teeth for Glasgow and Ospreys

Don't forget Munster. It's much easier to get to Belfast from Glasgow than Limerick or Cork.

You keep saying that as if Glasgow have a massive following, they don't, they get ok crowds at home, but hardly any of their fans travel to watch them.

And thats somehow relevant in your mind?

Because you live in the great hope that loads of people will sail to Belfast and sell out the stadium. That will not happen, if no Irish side get to the final, then I hope the people of Belfast are ready to put their hands in their pockets or otherwise it will be a pretty empty day out in the Kingspan stadium.

Ospreys-Glasgow final could get max 10k not more imo, rest would have to be Irish fans. And i'm being optimistic.

where do the semis take place? is it home advantage to the top 2 in the table?

quinsforever wrote:where do the semis take place? is it home advantage to the top 2 in the table?

For the moment that's still the case.

I think after every group stage is finished the league that does worse has one of these things.

The Pro 12 is aready moving onto the next level with Sky starting to come on board and when the Euro cup TV rights come up for Sale the Rabo can do a deal involving both.

Of the players mentioned in the article Priestland is going as back up and has not been at his best for a while. As good as Visser is going forward there a a few Scottish players who would give more to the team. Hanrahan is second best to Keatley.

Our lower half of the league did fine in the challange cup and had no bottom places and Zebre won two games.

While money will always be an issue I think the Super 15 teams have lost more by some margin compared to the Pro12, also they are losing current internationals.

The thing is, if Ospreys did top the table, and they then had the final in Swansea, then they could have attracted more fans, then of those extra fans, they could have kept some of them, thus increasing their fan base within the area, now that opportunity has gone, so I wonder if Ospreys would be better off just consolidating a top 6 finish now instead.

Brendan wrote:I think after every group stage is finished the league that does worse has one of these things.

The Pro 12 is aready moving onto the next level with Sky starting to come on board and when the Euro cup TV rights come up for Sale the Rabo can do a deal involving both.

Of the players mentioned in the article Priestland is going as back up and has not been at his best for a while.  As good as Visser is going forward there a a few Scottish players who would give more to the team.  Hanrahan is second best to Keatley.

Our lower half of the league did fine in the challange cup and had no bottom places and Zebre won two games.

While money will always be an issue I think the Super 15 teams have lost more by some margin compared to the Pro12, also they are losing current internationals.

And I think you have the wrong thread bio Bach.

Also seeding has made a big difference and doing it by league means getting the french team who comes fourth as your third seed will ruin the group for you.

Drop both Italian teams, they add nothing interesting in my opinion and only drag the league out, the seasons are long for most of the players on international duty so having a smaller fixture list is appealing.

If Ospreys finish 1st then they have a home semi which they'll gain new fans from then take to the final, I know it's far fetched but they can still gain more fans. Glasgow did last year even though they went to Dublin.