England XV vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Injuries have struck England hard in the past couple of weeks. Foden, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Farrell, Morgan, Wood, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Slater and Cole all look set to miss out England's first match with Wales through injury. Ford our current first choice fly half suffered a mild concussion against Glasgow whilst his kicking was inconsistent too, something which has been affecting his game the last few matches.

Following these injuries this would be my XV and subs to take on Wales.

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Wilson
4. G.Kruis
5. D.Attwood
6. J.Haskell
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Vunipola

The front row would remain unchanged after going so well in the Autumn internationals. Kruis will come in for the injured Lawes, although I think England would have opted for Parling had he been fit. In the back row Haskell will come in for the injured Wood, however, I think on form Haskell would have been pushing very close for a starting spot anyway. Vunipola is offered another chance with Morgan out injured.

09. B.Youngs
10. D.Cipriani
11. J.May
12. B.Barritt
13. L.Burrell
14. A.Watson
15. M.Brown

At half back Youngs has been in good form for Leicester this season and has emerged as a leader too. Cipriani would get the nod over Ford on form, he has a huge chance with Farrell out injured and I think he might just take it. In the centres Barritt will be selected on merit in his more comfortable role of inside centre, I feel his defensive leadership will be integral against Wales. Burrell has also had a strong season and deserves his chance. Our back three although a little lightweight has bags of pace and enthusiasm and will be looking to kick on from the Autumn.

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Corbisiero
18. K.Brookes
19. G.Kitchener
20. C.Clark
21. D.Care
22. G.Ford
23. J.Joseph

What a bench! Youngs and Corbisiero are both Lions whilst Brookes impressed when he came on in the Autumn. Kitchener is in the form of his life at the moment too, so will relish this opportunity. It was a tough call between Easter and Clark, but I'd go with the latter who has been in top form for Northampton and it's time to see if he can sink or swim at international level. Care, Ford and Joseph provide a lethal attacking threat and will look to inject something different when they come on. Joseph is very unlucky to miss out on a starting spot, he has been electric all season and put in another impressive showing yesterday against Glasgow.

What would be your XV?

On the subject of best finishers, surely you look at the number of tries scored.
I have to put my Wasps hat on here & Christian Wade has topped the stats the last 3 years despite his injuries. If you want tries from your winger pick Wadey.
I struggle to work out why he isn't even starting for the Saxons

Yes but he's not a converted fullback, so not a proper winger in lancasters view

Austin Healey calls for Slade and Joseph in the centre to beat Wales.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11378489/Six-Nations-2015-Pair-Henry-Slade-with-Jonathan-Joseph-and-England-can-win-in-Cardiff.html

Agree that Wade should be in instead of Ashton but Lancaster is a big fan of next cab off the rank, even if that is detriment to the learning of younger players ( yes i know he has given more U23's debut's than any other manager). You'd have thought that an away game against a very good Irish team would be perfect to test Wade's development on the pointers he was surely given last time he met with Lancaster.

Personally i cant believe that they had Rokodunguni in the squad for the autumn when we've got such young talent in the back 3, its almost like Lancaster has nailed his colours to the mast and decided that some players will not play until after the world cup and are solely going to be included in preparation for 2019.

Depends which competition you look at.

Chris Ashton is a proven try scorer in European club rugby. One of the best.

Ashton was the top try scorer in last season's Heineken Cup with 11.

He's got 4 this time round in 6 games with those coming against Munster and Clermont - making him joint 3rd.

He's 4th on the all time try scorer list too.

27 tries in 40 HC/ERCC games is pretty good.

34 in 46 if you include the challenge cup.


No other English winger gets close in European club rugby.

His try scoring for England still holds up well too - 19 tries - almost a strike rate of 50%.

9th all time try scorer for England.

Ashton is still hugely underrated. Even when he's been through a run of poor form for England he was part of England's crushing of NZ and Scotland (scoring a try in both).




Wade is a good player but he's largely unproven.

But they know that Ashton's defence is weak at international level. What were his last 6N defensive stats something like missed nine tackles and made one.

He moved out of contention pretty much straight after that.

And Wade was still getting over last season's injuries in the autumn. There have been times when hes been knocking on the door but the autumn wasnt one of them.

Wing is probably the most competitive position for England and we can afford to be picky

What's more odd is that Yarde has been so poor this season but is picked straight away, his defence and attack have been faulty and he's scored maybe 5 tries in all comps?

Yarde is only in the Saxons.

maestegmafia yet strangely enough he's not had the same amount of issues in top tier European club rugby.

Ashton's tackling at international level is no worse than Yarde.

The problem is when a player gets a reputation for being a poor tackler - every single missed tackle is amplified in importance.


Also missed tackles doesn't necessarily result in a try.

Player X could miss 5 tackles but not concede any tries whilst Player Y could miss 0 but knock on (giving the ball to the opposition which they score from, or fail to catch a bouncing ball allowing the opposition to score) - conceding 2 tries from their errors.

Some errors are more costly than others obviously. Something like a missed lineout can be more important than a missed tackle.


I have seen many a time when a botched lineout or two has had more impact on a game than a missed tackle (e.g. player O kicks a great territorial gain, pinning team W back close to their own line, team W botch up the lineout giving team E the ball, team E in a great position with the ball score in the resulting phases.

Yarde looks more promising though. He can create his own tries, as well as be on the end of good finishing (which is all Ashton can do), as we seen of him in NZ. The Ashton ship has sailed IMO, but he is a very handy club winger.

It's not all Ashton can do. Ashton comes into the line and does have good hands.

Still would have loved to see what he could have done in last year's 6 nations with a backline actually functioning properly mostly.

Ship has sailed? He's 27 and is England's 9th highest try scorer with a strike rate of just under 50%. Criminally underrated player.

If Yarde was getting a brace of tries against the likes of Clermont and Munster people would be raving over him.

Great video of Ashton's tries last season - not all walk ins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIWtDPuNYA

Ashton did have a fantastic start to his international career, and that try vs Australia rates as one the English greats, but for whatever reason in his last few chances playing for England he was poor.

I read that as he was poo, and on reflection its a pretty good description

I just feel it's harsh to discount Ashton completely when he's a proven try scorer. He's still only 27.

Watson and May deserve to start in the 6 nations but one injury to either and I would have Ashton in there in at heartbeat, certainly with more attacking players in the backline.

Bear in mind most of Ashton's recent caps have been with the much maligned Farrell and Barritt at 10 and 12. Also with Manu (I won't pass the ball much).

I wouldn't be unhappy to have Ashton in the line-up. For all the flack he gets for defensive frailty, I've never come away from an England game thinking he was the reason we lost a match..

My argument against that would be have you ever come away from a game thinking that there was any one single player at fault?

Other than beshocked with Nowell against France last year obviously

Your vendetta against Nowell, beshocked, has been going on for much longer with more intensity than any I've seen directed at Ashton. You going to start on Kruis shortly if he gets picked following his error against NZ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your vendetta against Nowell, beshocked, has been going on for much longer with more intensity than any I've seen directed at Ashton. You going to start on Kruis shortly if he gets picked following his error against NZ?

No, because Kruis is a saracen

Rugby Fan wrote:I wouldn't be unhappy to have Ashton in the line-up. For all the flack he gets for defensive frailty, I've never come away from an England game thinking he was the reason we lost a match..

He copped a lot of flak for the France home game but Lawes at 6 didn't help matters. Wingers playing for England have to adapt to a difficult system of knowing when to come up into the line and when to drop back, it's tough on any winger. They're also expected to stay wide but without the necessary incision from centre, so it makes it doubly difficult.

I've said before it would be easy to have Ashton in the team provided there were specific allowances made for him ie: use him to his strengths and devise some plays that utilise it. It's not exactly quantum physics.

Having said that I think Lancs looked at the wing options a couple of years ago and thought there was sufficient talent coming through to be able to move aside those who didn't fit his requirements as he saw it. With injuries though, that has proved a tight call.

Rugby fan very true neither have I. It's a very good point actually.

Some players get less flack - e.g. I remember Lawes getting the ball ripped off him vs Wales, Foden messing up badly against Italy, Brown being caught out twice vs Wales

I think Ashton is just not a popular player because of his disciplinary problems and swallow dive. Plus he doesn't make searing breaks or smash players.

It's why players like Burrell,Brown,Billy Vunipola and Manu are so popular - they lack guile but they have raw power, beat defenders and more fun to watch.

Ashton is a surprisingly intelligent player when he puts his mind to it. Just sometimes gets carried away and his discipline can be an issue.

Brown wasn't caught out vs Wales, he was out of position on the wing.

If there had been an actual winger defending the wing with Brown at FB it would have been another story IMO.

But that was Lancaster's fault rather than the players

I'm with Beshocked on Ashton. He is an underrated player and certainly falls into the category of "player fans love to hate".

I'm a big fan of wingers who score tries. For me that's what wingers do. In the same way I dislike props who cannot scrummage (regardless of how good they are around the park), I dislike wingers who never seem to score (regardless how how good they are in defence).

Still, what do I know. My right wing pecking order was (1) Wade and (2) Ashton, and neither are going to make the England XV! I'd have had Watson either starting at 15 or on the bench. I certainly wouldn't have included Nowell, but I hear he's a good lad liked by all and makes his tackles so what more could you want from a winger eh??

Bambam he wasn't the only reason England lost but it was one error by Lancaster.

no 7 &1/2 Nowell is a talented youngster who I am sure will have a long and fruitful career for England. For a debutant he had a pretty good 6 nations. I just feel that it was far too early to throw him in vs France and IMO it proved costly (wasn't the only error on the day).

I wouldn't be against him starting vs Wales as he now has more experience under his belt.

I am overly harsh on Nowell - I know that. I blame Lancaster more.

It's not surprising an inexperienced player in their 1st game for England made mistakes.

I think May's start in internationals was a bit meh (not awful but not what we would hope) but now he is developing nicely and could turn out to be the best of the lot.

I don't think rating Nowell just on his first international performances is fair. He was very inexperienced. He is in the squad on merit, not just because he is liked and makes his tackles

Agreed on May. A slow starter at international level but his pace over the first 10-20 metres is exceptional by any standards and gives England a real cutting edge. It's why I thought Wade was a good shout for the right wing. Those two in tandem would give England a real attacking edge, and the ability to create from very little. Stick Watson at 15 (not that Brown deserves to be dropped particularly) and you'd have a broken field back three to match any in the world, perhaps excluding the ABs (Dagg, Smith and Savea are exceptional mind you).

lostinwales

Of course it's unfair of me -

I think he currently deserves his squad spot just didn't think he had earnt a start vs France last year.

For a debutant - he had a poor first match and a solid 6 nations overall IMO. Probably 5.5/10 rating for the tournament.

Brown would have got a 9, Burrell 8.5, Care 8.5, Farrell 8, Twelvetrees 6.5, May 5

If England had got a GS then Lancaster's decision would be vindicated. They didn't, the gamble by Lancaster failed IMO.

As for May - they have to stick with him for now.

Brown is very unlikely to make it to 2019 so he may well move aside either directly post RWC or within the next couple of years. We wont have to wait too long to see a back 3 like that. Bring back Manu at 13 and all we need is the right 12 to make for a very dangerous back line.

beshocked wrote:It's not all Ashton can do. Ashton comes into the line and does have good hands.

Still would have loved to see what he could have done in last year's 6 nations with a backline actually functioning properly mostly.

Ship has sailed? He's 27 and is England's 9th highest try scorer with a strike rate of just under 50%. Criminally underrated player.

If Yarde was getting a brace of tries against the likes of Clermont and Munster people would be raving over him.

Great video of Ashton's tries last season - not all walk ins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIWtDPuNYA

The interesting thing for me watching the clips is the number of tries scored from infield or even on the left wing, probably 50% where either tracking the ball across and following the ball carrier (something he used to be exceptional at for England) or from breaks through the centre. He certainly is a great finisher, if he has ironed out his defensive deficiencies, I for one would not object to seeing him back in a white shirt.

beshocked wrote:Bambam he wasn't the only reason England lost but it was one error by Lancaster.

no 7 &1/2 Nowell is a talented youngster who I am sure will have a long and fruitful career for England. For a debutant he had a pretty good 6 nations. I just feel that it was far too early to throw him in vs France and IMO it proved costly (wasn't the only error on the day).

I wouldn't be against him starting vs Wales as he now has more experience under his belt.

I am overly harsh on Nowell - I know that. I blame Lancaster more.

It's not surprising an inexperienced player in their 1st game for England made mistakes.

That's pretty fair. There were more costly performances than him but I was surprised he didn't stick with Ashton. Think it'll take some performance from him to get back in, hopefully tonight is the start. Few good performances tonight could actually set the cat among the pidgeons.

nowell is better than last year. after he got that knee operation, he bulked up and apparently got faster too!

2nd top try scorer in AP this season with 4 tries so far. vs zero last year in AP.

Yeah apparently he was effectively playing off one leg, as the other just wasn't able to generate the same level of power, but now that's fixed

There's no doubt Ashton is a quality finisher. He's also pants when defending against top quality opposition. There can be no room for any player who can't defend. England have enough to choose from.

beshocked wrote:I just feel it's harsh to discount Ashton completely when he's a proven try scorer. He's still only 27.

Watson and May deserve to start in the 6 nations but one injury to either and I would have Ashton in there in at heartbeat, certainly with more attacking players in the backline.

Bear in mind most of Ashton's recent caps have been with the much maligned Farrell and Barritt at 10 and 12.  Also with Manu (I won't pass the ball much).

Ashton is also a bit of a hot head, you already have Hartley who is most likely to do something stupid, you don't need a player who once pulled Manu Tuilahis big brother off the pitch by his hair too.

I don't think Ashton offers anythingpositive compared to his peers, when England have lads like Wade, Watson, Yarde and May to call on Ashton is very forgettable.

BamBam wrote:My argument against that would be have you ever come away from a game thinking that there was any one single player at fault?

Other than beshocked with Nowell against France last year obviously

Straight after a match, I've been spitting blood about some players. A few that come to mind: Tom Youngs missing lineouts; Mike Brown not tracking Tuilagi's break in NZ; Ben Youngs letting himself get burgled by Brodie Retallick, Courtney Lawes getting stripped by Scott Williams, Danny Care throwing an interception against South Africa.

Yes, I'll usually see the bigger picture after a week or so, but it's hard to shake the feeling that a player had the destiny of the match in his hands at one point and blew it. I just can't recall Ashton being at the centre of such an incident.

lostinwales wrote:Ashton did have a fantastic start to his international career, and that try vs Australia rates as one the English greats, but for whatever reason in his last few chances playing for England he was poor.

he was mainly good when playing under Martin Johnson. Perhaps that game plan suited him more than how England play now.

It's probably very unfair given how many he's scored, but when I think of Ashton in the 6N now, I can't get this out of my head:

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Ashton did have a fantastic start to his international career, and that try vs Australia rates as one the English greats, but for whatever reason in his last few chances playing for England he was poor.

he was mainly good when playing under Martin Johnson. Perhaps that game plan suited him more than how England play now.

One of his sweetest touches was in 2010 against the NZ Maori when he made a try for...Steffon Armitage. It's the first play after the haka in this highlight video.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjYLGMFMuek

Henry Slade and Henry Thomas have been called up to train with the main squad, and Sam Burgess will remain with them until Monday to gain experience.

With a bit of luck this will mean Slade on the bench in Cardiff.

If Brown continues his current average club form through the 6 Nations, will he still be considered the England full back? Unfortunately, we have no Foden to step in. So are there any realistic alternatives if Brown doesn't regain his form from a year ago?

doctor_grey wrote:If Brown continues his current average club form through the 6 Nations, will he still be considered the England full back?  Unfortunately, we have no Foden to step in.  So are there any realistic alternatives if Brown doesn't regain his form from a year ago?

Anthony Watson starts there for Bath, and seems to do a good job whenever I see him there.

Do you think we would have a chance to see him play there during the 6 nations? Maybe against Italy?

doctor_grey wrote:Do you think we would have a chance to see him play there during the 6 nations?  Maybe against Italy?  

I doubt it unless Brown is injured or loses form. Lancaster just doesn't seem the coach to bring Watson in for a one-off game without him having earned the shirt full-time.

IIRC Ashton has stated that he liked playing with Flood as he would track Flood who would make a half break & Ashton would be on his should to make the most of it.

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ashton has stated that he liked playing with Flood as he would track Flood who would make a half break & Ashton would be on his should to make the most of it.

That was fairly clear. That is how England won the 2011 Six Nations.

I think he could very easily do the same with Ford too

At his best Flood was very very good at spotting the gaps and making a half break, just never really had the pace to exploit it. I can understand how well that works with someone like Ashton to exploit what Flood has started.

OMc wrote:Henry Slade and Henry Thomas have been called up to train with the main squad, and Sam Burgess will remain with them until Monday to gain experience.

With a bit of luck this will mean Slade on the bench in Cardiff.

I hope so

Telegraph thinks Joseph has won a starting spot and Cipriani might have edged ahead of Myler for the bench.

quinsforever wrote:nowell is better than last year. after he got that knee operation, he bulked up and apparently got faster too!

2nd top try scorer in AP this season with 4 tries so far. vs zero last year in AP.

quits - where did you get that from re. Nowell (unless I've misunderstood)

Top AP try scorers (*EQ)

Waldrom* (Exe) 9
Hughes (Was) 8
Wade* (Was) 7
Joseph* (Bat) 6
Geneva (Lei) 6
Varndell* (Was) 6
Rokoduguni* (Bat) 5

wierd. i went to the avivapremiership website and used the statistics page. obviously wrongly as it turns out! no idea what i did.

he is playingbetter than last year though, when he recorded 0 tries in AP and 1 against Italy.